Things to Never Say to a Dealer
11-10-2007, 09:01 PM
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Things to Never Say to a Dealer
I found this article on yahoo. Though this might be helpful to those who want to buy a vehicle.
http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/artic...ay-to-a-Dealer
Ready, Set, Go!
1. "I'm ready to buy now."
This is an admission of weakness and an invitation for the dealer to throw out a price that's slightly below the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) to see if you'll take the bait. It shows that you're too eager and willing to consider an offer, and it also gives salespeople the advantage by allowing them to talk you up as opposed to you talking them down. But by adding some very precise parameters, you'll sound confident and strong from the start.
"Don't let them know that you're ready to buy without being very particular. If you're ready, say that you'll buy, but only under these particular conditions," says Gentile.
There are two schools on negotiating. Going into the process, Gentile reminds consumers to be wary of the dealer cost. Consumer Reports has something called wholesale price, which is the normal dealer invoice price minus all relevant rebates and incentives. Similarly, most longstanding price-information services advise buyers to research the dealer invoice, along with any relevant incentives, then make a lowball offer that's maybe just a few hundred dollars above invoice. The dealer will follow your figure with a counteroffer that then allows you to go back and forth until there is a compromise.
Conversely, a second school believes that making the first offer puts the buyer in a weak position. "When you make an offer on a car, you're digging yourself into a hole," says James "Spike" Bragg, a consumer advocate and founder of Fighting Chance, an information service for new-car buyers. "That offer will be as good as it gets. There's so much today in 'under the radar' sales incentives to dealers, you don't want to limit yourself."
According to Bragg, many of the dealer incentives today are awarded on a dealer-by-dealer basis, often handed out for meeting sales targets. Because of this, you can't pin down these incentives on a particular vehicle, and you never know which dealership might be able to provide the better price at a given time.
Bragg's method involves faxing quote requests from several different dealerships and asking them for their best bottom-line price on a particular model. His clients sometimes manage to negotiate prices well below invoice, even considering all published incentives. In this day of increased under-the-radar incentives, this method doesn't limit you to a bottom line and certainly has its merits if you're willing to put in the effort.
On ForbesAutos.com you can pursue both options. On each of our Reviews pages there is a link to detailed MSRP and invoice pricing. Also, if you go to our "Buy a Car" section, you can select a model, configure it how you like and then request a free dealer price quote.
Monthly Payment
2. "I can afford this much per month."
"Don't tell the dealer what you're willing to pay per month. This is the biggest mistake a shopper can make. Often the dealer will focus on a monthly payment scheme, insisting you are receiving a great deal, but at the end of the day you won't really know what you paid, advises Gentile.
If the dealer can get a number out of you, a common trick is to ask if you can squeeze out a slightly higher monthly payment, then raise the bottom-line price accordingly by hundreds or even thousands. Avoid this by insisting that you focus only on the purchase price. Walk away if the salesperson only wants to talk in monthly payments. Trade-in
Trade-in
3. "Yes, I have a trade-in."
Don't tell salespeople you have a trade-in until a final transaction price is set. If you do and the deal hasn't been made yet, they may try to distract you with the "great" deal they're giving you on your trade-in as they skimp on the real deal. And if you catch that, they may try writing your trade-up for less.
"You'll see games being played — they'll play one off on the other," Gentile says. Once you've decided on a sale price, then you can see what they'll give you for your old car.
Cash-Only Please
4. "I'm only buying the car with cash."
Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing. If you don't at least leave the dealer with the possibility that he or she might sell you financing, you simply won't be getting the best deal. Bragg recommends saying something like "I haven't really thought that through yet. Maybe we'll see what you have after we agree on a price."
But be truly noncommittal with financing, even though it's a good idea to line up tentative financing with your lender before you go car shopping.
Still Debating
5. "I'm not sure…which model do you think I need?"
If you're this undecided, you may end up driving away in a vehicle you neither wanted nor needed. Do the research in advance, and make your first shopping trip a short one. Use this opportunity to gather information and take your spec vehicle for a short test drive. If your uncertainty is apparent, you may end up buying the model with the most add-on equipment, the highest sticker price and, of course, the most profit for the dealer. Before you go shopping, narrow your choices down to three or four vehicles that fit your needs.
My Dream Car
6. "Oh, I've wanted one of these all my life."
As soon as you've lost yourself in the dreamy vision of that gleaming convertible, the salesperson has you hooked, and your chances of getting a great deal are over. "Don't get caught heavy breathing," says Bragg. "Certainly don't admit to your spouse — with the salesman listening in the backseat — that you're in love with the car." Here's where you need to have a communication plan. Try to sound objective and rational. Point out some pros and cons and be observant and calm. Just don't say that you have to have this car.
What Everyone Wants
7. "I'll take whatever the popular options are."
Don't ever ask for the "popular options" especially on a luxury model that already comes loaded. It's an open invitation for overpriced dealer add-ons such as interior protectant, window etching or undercoating. They're all things you can come back for later. Instead, go through the equipment list at home after your first visit to the dealership and then decide exactly what you need.
Lowest You Can Go
8. "What's the lowest price you can give me?"
Most likely, this question won't be taken seriously, and you will be met with a predictable performance. The salesperson will wince, maybe talk to the manager, fiddle with numbers and eventually come back with a price that probably isn't a very good deal for you. But there may be so much apparent effort in this performance that you'll be pressured into settling for that final number. Don't. To avoid this, make an informed and reasonable low offer, then wait for a counteroffer. Don't be afraid of silence. Conversely, don't be surprised if there's even a little drama.
Doing The Math
9. "Sure, I'll look at the numbers with you."
Perhaps quite early in your visit, the salesperson will most likely make an offer to "just go look at the numbers." Dealers do this when they sense you're undecided, but they want to be in the position of control. Getting you in the office makes it harder for you to back out. Wait until you can call the shots of what you want at what price.
The Haggle Factor
10. "I think you can do a lot better than that."
Never scold or accuse the salespeople. Be polite. Compliment them, and show respect. You'll never get the best price if you talk down to them. At least for the moment, you want them to be your friends. Let the scene play out, but leave when the deal's not good enough by quietly suggesting that the competition across town might be more willing to work with you.
http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/artic...ay-to-a-Dealer
Ready, Set, Go!
1. "I'm ready to buy now."
This is an admission of weakness and an invitation for the dealer to throw out a price that's slightly below the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) to see if you'll take the bait. It shows that you're too eager and willing to consider an offer, and it also gives salespeople the advantage by allowing them to talk you up as opposed to you talking them down. But by adding some very precise parameters, you'll sound confident and strong from the start.
"Don't let them know that you're ready to buy without being very particular. If you're ready, say that you'll buy, but only under these particular conditions," says Gentile.
There are two schools on negotiating. Going into the process, Gentile reminds consumers to be wary of the dealer cost. Consumer Reports has something called wholesale price, which is the normal dealer invoice price minus all relevant rebates and incentives. Similarly, most longstanding price-information services advise buyers to research the dealer invoice, along with any relevant incentives, then make a lowball offer that's maybe just a few hundred dollars above invoice. The dealer will follow your figure with a counteroffer that then allows you to go back and forth until there is a compromise.
Conversely, a second school believes that making the first offer puts the buyer in a weak position. "When you make an offer on a car, you're digging yourself into a hole," says James "Spike" Bragg, a consumer advocate and founder of Fighting Chance, an information service for new-car buyers. "That offer will be as good as it gets. There's so much today in 'under the radar' sales incentives to dealers, you don't want to limit yourself."
According to Bragg, many of the dealer incentives today are awarded on a dealer-by-dealer basis, often handed out for meeting sales targets. Because of this, you can't pin down these incentives on a particular vehicle, and you never know which dealership might be able to provide the better price at a given time.
Bragg's method involves faxing quote requests from several different dealerships and asking them for their best bottom-line price on a particular model. His clients sometimes manage to negotiate prices well below invoice, even considering all published incentives. In this day of increased under-the-radar incentives, this method doesn't limit you to a bottom line and certainly has its merits if you're willing to put in the effort.
On ForbesAutos.com you can pursue both options. On each of our Reviews pages there is a link to detailed MSRP and invoice pricing. Also, if you go to our "Buy a Car" section, you can select a model, configure it how you like and then request a free dealer price quote.
Monthly Payment
2. "I can afford this much per month."
"Don't tell the dealer what you're willing to pay per month. This is the biggest mistake a shopper can make. Often the dealer will focus on a monthly payment scheme, insisting you are receiving a great deal, but at the end of the day you won't really know what you paid, advises Gentile.
If the dealer can get a number out of you, a common trick is to ask if you can squeeze out a slightly higher monthly payment, then raise the bottom-line price accordingly by hundreds or even thousands. Avoid this by insisting that you focus only on the purchase price. Walk away if the salesperson only wants to talk in monthly payments. Trade-in
Trade-in
3. "Yes, I have a trade-in."
Don't tell salespeople you have a trade-in until a final transaction price is set. If you do and the deal hasn't been made yet, they may try to distract you with the "great" deal they're giving you on your trade-in as they skimp on the real deal. And if you catch that, they may try writing your trade-up for less.
"You'll see games being played — they'll play one off on the other," Gentile says. Once you've decided on a sale price, then you can see what they'll give you for your old car.
Cash-Only Please
4. "I'm only buying the car with cash."
Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing. If you don't at least leave the dealer with the possibility that he or she might sell you financing, you simply won't be getting the best deal. Bragg recommends saying something like "I haven't really thought that through yet. Maybe we'll see what you have after we agree on a price."
But be truly noncommittal with financing, even though it's a good idea to line up tentative financing with your lender before you go car shopping.
Still Debating
5. "I'm not sure…which model do you think I need?"
If you're this undecided, you may end up driving away in a vehicle you neither wanted nor needed. Do the research in advance, and make your first shopping trip a short one. Use this opportunity to gather information and take your spec vehicle for a short test drive. If your uncertainty is apparent, you may end up buying the model with the most add-on equipment, the highest sticker price and, of course, the most profit for the dealer. Before you go shopping, narrow your choices down to three or four vehicles that fit your needs.
My Dream Car
6. "Oh, I've wanted one of these all my life."
As soon as you've lost yourself in the dreamy vision of that gleaming convertible, the salesperson has you hooked, and your chances of getting a great deal are over. "Don't get caught heavy breathing," says Bragg. "Certainly don't admit to your spouse — with the salesman listening in the backseat — that you're in love with the car." Here's where you need to have a communication plan. Try to sound objective and rational. Point out some pros and cons and be observant and calm. Just don't say that you have to have this car.
What Everyone Wants
7. "I'll take whatever the popular options are."
Don't ever ask for the "popular options" especially on a luxury model that already comes loaded. It's an open invitation for overpriced dealer add-ons such as interior protectant, window etching or undercoating. They're all things you can come back for later. Instead, go through the equipment list at home after your first visit to the dealership and then decide exactly what you need.
Lowest You Can Go
8. "What's the lowest price you can give me?"
Most likely, this question won't be taken seriously, and you will be met with a predictable performance. The salesperson will wince, maybe talk to the manager, fiddle with numbers and eventually come back with a price that probably isn't a very good deal for you. But there may be so much apparent effort in this performance that you'll be pressured into settling for that final number. Don't. To avoid this, make an informed and reasonable low offer, then wait for a counteroffer. Don't be afraid of silence. Conversely, don't be surprised if there's even a little drama.
Doing The Math
9. "Sure, I'll look at the numbers with you."
Perhaps quite early in your visit, the salesperson will most likely make an offer to "just go look at the numbers." Dealers do this when they sense you're undecided, but they want to be in the position of control. Getting you in the office makes it harder for you to back out. Wait until you can call the shots of what you want at what price.
The Haggle Factor
10. "I think you can do a lot better than that."
Never scold or accuse the salespeople. Be polite. Compliment them, and show respect. You'll never get the best price if you talk down to them. At least for the moment, you want them to be your friends. Let the scene play out, but leave when the deal's not good enough by quietly suggesting that the competition across town might be more willing to work with you.
11-11-2007, 10:54 AM
#3
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This advice sounds pretty old fashioned to me. There is so much good pricing info on the Internet these days that you should know exactly how much you are going to pay before you sit down with the finance manager. For example, go to the "prices paid" thread in this forum and look for the lowest price in your area. Just tell the manager take it or leave it and be prepared to walk out if he balks. If you use the Yahoo method, you can spend hours negotiating and not get a lower price.
Unless there is a manufacturer's incentive program going on, you can save money by getting financing from a bank and selling your old car privately. If you really want to let the dealer take care of these items, do the math yourself before hand so there is nothing left to think about when you get to the dealer.
Unless there is a manufacturer's incentive program going on, you can save money by getting financing from a bank and selling your old car privately. If you really want to let the dealer take care of these items, do the math yourself before hand so there is nothing left to think about when you get to the dealer.
11-11-2007, 05:42 PM
#4
2016 MDX Adv/SHAWD
seems like ppl have gotten best prices by playing the dealers in their area. getting a price from one and then getting a better quote from another and so on. good general info though.
11-11-2007, 05:46 PM
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I agree, except the part about lying about your trade in. Point 10 talks about respect. How much respect do you expect to get when your lying too? How about changing that to go into the dealer knowing what your car is realistically worth? Then you know what kind of deal your getting. Last purchase ( RDX), I took 10% off the sticker, deducted my trade,
and wrote the number down on my business card and said this is the price I want for a sale today. The salesman went off and discussed and it I had a deal. No Muss, no fuss as they say. I was satisfied, maybe I could have done better, I'm not sweating it.
and wrote the number down on my business card and said this is the price I want for a sale today. The salesman went off and discussed and it I had a deal. No Muss, no fuss as they say. I was satisfied, maybe I could have done better, I'm not sweating it.
11-11-2007, 06:39 PM
#6
Suzuka Master
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins. Thanks to internet people can get a fair price..... Before I purchased my RDX I did a lot research on internet about prices, I knew exactly the breaking price point, and they could not do anything about, they were crying when I told them "I know I can get it at this price, if not here, I will go to the other dealership" 
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
11-11-2007, 07:05 PM
#7
2016 MDX Adv/SHAWD
Originally Posted by russianDude
I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Trending Topics
11-11-2007, 07:33 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins. Thanks to internet people can get a fair price..... Before I purchased my RDX I did a lot research on internet about prices, I knew exactly the breaking price point, and they could not do anything about, they were crying when I told them "I know I can get it at this price, if not here, I will go to the other dealership"
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
11-11-2007, 10:30 PM
#10
Trailingthrottleoversteer
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Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins. Thanks to internet people can get a fair price..... Before I purchased my RDX I did a lot research on internet about prices, I knew exactly the breaking price point, and they could not do anything about, they were crying when I told them "I know I can get it at this price, if not here, I will go to the other dealership"
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
If this were 100% true there would be a lot of dealers going out of business! My theory is that they are making it up in in spades with the trade in's. Mfr's like Saturn and Scion have those "No-haggle" pricing policies - but it does not apply to the trade ins - only to the purchase price of the car!
Also - leasing helps profits because so many people are clueless and get focused on payment - like the article suggests, and over pay for the vehicle.
.
11-12-2007, 01:00 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins. Thanks to internet people can get a fair price..... Before I purchased my RDX I did a lot research on internet about prices, I knew exactly the breaking price point, and they could not do anything about, they were crying when I told them "I know I can get it at this price, if not here, I will go to the other dealership"
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
11-12-2007, 06:54 AM
#12
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More like completely implausable, just think about it. Lots, insurance, people cost lots of . money So you would pay for it. Then I guess you will expect the UPS driver to bring it to your door and prep it? or are you going to fly to Ohio and pick it up. Nonsense idea
11-12-2007, 07:00 AM
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Yeah, the dealers are there for a reason, the auto makers already have enough to deal with, adding in the hassle of selling the cars is too much.
Financing, doc prep, servicing, test driving etc... it's too much for them to want or have to deal with.
Financing, doc prep, servicing, test driving etc... it's too much for them to want or have to deal with.
11-12-2007, 10:58 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by benlee78
Cash-Only Please
4. "I'm only buying the car with cash."
Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing. If you don't at least leave the dealer with the possibility that he or she might sell you financing, you simply won't be getting the best deal. Bragg recommends saying something like "I haven't really thought that through yet. Maybe we'll see what you have after we agree on a price."
But be truly noncommittal with financing, even though it's a good idea to line up tentative financing with your lender before you go car shopping.
4. "I'm only buying the car with cash."
Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing. If you don't at least leave the dealer with the possibility that he or she might sell you financing, you simply won't be getting the best deal. Bragg recommends saying something like "I haven't really thought that through yet. Maybe we'll see what you have after we agree on a price."
But be truly noncommittal with financing, even though it's a good idea to line up tentative financing with your lender before you go car shopping.
11-12-2007, 11:28 AM
#15
Trolling Canuckistan
Guys and Gals, the only useful information in this article is about not negotiating a payment. Any car saleman will tell you that payment buyers (known in the industry as "suckers" or "rubes") are where we make the most money.
I'm not going to take the time to go through it point by point, but their suggestions aren't really going to help you. Being an educated consumer is going to help you and that involves research.
A side note on my favorite suggestion though... "I'm ready to buy right now."
In the real world the statement is, "I'm ready to buy now if the numbers work." This puts the sales man in a position where he knows he has a sale if he can make the numbers agreeable to you. At that point, he's going to bust his (or her) ass to make the numbers agreeable to you so they can get the sale. If you are ready to buy a car and want the best price, this IS the way to do it.
Never walk into a dealership and say, "who wants to sell me a car today." No one who has ever said this actually bought a car. If you want to see the sales staff avoid you like the plague, go ahead and make this "kiss of death" statement.
I'm not going to take the time to go through it point by point, but their suggestions aren't really going to help you. Being an educated consumer is going to help you and that involves research.
A side note on my favorite suggestion though... "I'm ready to buy right now."
In the real world the statement is, "I'm ready to buy now if the numbers work." This puts the sales man in a position where he knows he has a sale if he can make the numbers agreeable to you. At that point, he's going to bust his (or her) ass to make the numbers agreeable to you so they can get the sale. If you are ready to buy a car and want the best price, this IS the way to do it.
Never walk into a dealership and say, "who wants to sell me a car today." No one who has ever said this actually bought a car. If you want to see the sales staff avoid you like the plague, go ahead and make this "kiss of death" statement.
11-12-2007, 06:00 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by black label
Never walk into a dealership and say, "who wants to sell me a car today." No one who has ever said this actually bought a car. If you want to see the sales staff avoid you like the plague, go ahead and make this "kiss of death" statement.
11-12-2007, 06:02 PM
#17
Suzuka Master
The dealership still needs to exist for following activities:
1) Service/warranty repair/regular repair (there is a lot of money in warranty/service repair business)
2) Delivery of the car (each dealership can charge their own destination fee , and compete on it)
3) Test drive the car, give out sales brochures, provide info.
But the salesman is totally not necessary.
Ultimately, what I'd like to do is to have dealerships post their prices (which are non-negotiable) on internet (similarly to what Saturn does - I think its a great idea).
Its like when you buy a TV, you basically shop around, look for special deals and etc. I want to do the same when I buy a car, I am sick of their games.. they took a lot of my time, you know, I had to show up twice (first time I walked away because his best offer was to high), then I spent hours negotiating... waiting for the dealer to see his so called manager (yeah right.... he was drinking coffee or picking his nose or something)
And speaking of dealer's "in depth" product knowledge .. my salesman told me RDX has timing belt... and now I am finding it has timing chain (which is a good news for me)....
I always independently research the car before I buy it... and when I am ready to make a purchase, the dealer is just another salesman, that could be selling TVs, at that point he is just a middle man who wants to get his cut ... he serves no purpose (at least for me - maybe if you are a clueless women who does not know what she needs to buy, then she might need an advice from so called "sales expert"
But for me - just let me drive the car, give me the best price, and shut the f*** up
1) Service/warranty repair/regular repair (there is a lot of money in warranty/service repair business)
2) Delivery of the car (each dealership can charge their own destination fee , and compete on it)
3) Test drive the car, give out sales brochures, provide info.
But the salesman is totally not necessary.
Ultimately, what I'd like to do is to have dealerships post their prices (which are non-negotiable) on internet (similarly to what Saturn does - I think its a great idea).
Its like when you buy a TV, you basically shop around, look for special deals and etc. I want to do the same when I buy a car, I am sick of their games.. they took a lot of my time, you know, I had to show up twice (first time I walked away because his best offer was to high), then I spent hours negotiating... waiting for the dealer to see his so called manager (yeah right.... he was drinking coffee or picking his nose or something)
And speaking of dealer's "in depth" product knowledge .. my salesman told me RDX has timing belt... and now I am finding it has timing chain (which is a good news for me)....
I always independently research the car before I buy it... and when I am ready to make a purchase, the dealer is just another salesman, that could be selling TVs, at that point he is just a middle man who wants to get his cut ... he serves no purpose (at least for me - maybe if you are a clueless women who does not know what she needs to buy, then she might need an advice from so called "sales expert"
But for me - just let me drive the car, give me the best price, and shut the f*** up
11-12-2007, 06:19 PM
#18
Suzuka Master
another suggestion about trade-in, when you start negotiations, the first question dealer will ask you "do you have a trade-in", tell them NO right away, continue negotiating the TOTAL price, once you are happy with your price, and the dealer wants to shake your hand, take away your hand and say something like:
"my wife just called me, and she changed her mind, she wants to trade in"... and watch dealers reaction of ready to cry
at that point you are fixed on your purchase price, now you are negotiating trade in price only...... always keep each transaction separate.
its true, the dealer makes money on trade in, but come prepared, print out KBB, edmunds and other reports... also consider tax savings and hassle of selling your car yourself, so if you are smart, you won't lose that much on trade-in.
"my wife just called me, and she changed her mind, she wants to trade in"... and watch dealers reaction of ready to cry
at that point you are fixed on your purchase price, now you are negotiating trade in price only...... always keep each transaction separate.
its true, the dealer makes money on trade in, but come prepared, print out KBB, edmunds and other reports... also consider tax savings and hassle of selling your car yourself, so if you are smart, you won't lose that much on trade-in.
11-12-2007, 07:01 PM
#19
Trolling Canuckistan
Originally Posted by russianDude
Ultimately, what I'd like to do is to have dealerships post their prices (which are non-negotiable) on internet (similarly to what Saturn does - I think its a great idea).
Look for the part that says MSRP, thats the price, feel free to pay it.
It's the customer who makes it difficult, if you would come in and pay what it says on the sticker it would all be easy. Just like when you order dinner, you pay the price on the menu. Unless you happen to go into a restaurant and try to negotiate to the best price for your meal.
11-12-2007, 08:38 PM
#20
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by black label
Look for the part that says MSRP, thats the price, feel free to pay it.
.
.
Even car quotes u get on internet (which are bellow MSRP) are not accurate (u can usually go even lower). you really have to read message blogs to find out the breaking point in your area, or keep walking away from dealerships at certain price points, this way you will sort of come to the breaking point. the fastest way is internet.
Dealers don't want to post their BEST offer price, they are taking advantage of certain individuals which are either wealthy and don't care, or people who are not very good at negotiations.
its like when I call and ask for the quote, they don't give it to you, they want you to come over (to take you for a psychological ride and squeeze more $$ from you) they will take advantage of impulsive buyers, and people with weak psychological skills...
Customers like myself they hate, I waste a lot of their time, and in the end their profits are minimized.
Hopefully internet will put an end to this circus....
Sure they are allowed to make a living and profits(commission), but their profit should be minimal considering the action they perform is useless...
11-12-2007, 09:54 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins.
I had this whole long thing typed out that explains some things but I accidentally hit a key that wiped out everything. Now I don't feel like re-typing it. SON OF A.........
Listen to #10. Be polite, please. You'll get a much better response from us. And for God's sake, stop telling sales people you're "just looking"! If I had a dollar for every time I heard that I'd be stinkin' rich by now! We are salespeople! It's our job to help you. You can't buy a car without us. I've heard that ballons sell cars too but I have yet to see one pick up a pen and fill out a credit app, let alone negotiate.
Most of society has this stigma about sales people and it makes me sick. If I have a customer that is rude to me, I will flat out turn around and walk away. Be nice and respectible. Some of us are actually trying to change the way people think of us. We are people too.
11-13-2007, 11:16 AM
#22
I think alot of what goes into a new negotiation is the approach and 1st meet. When a customer busts into a dealer with a made up agenda, they are going to start off on a bad note. The sales guy is working for a living too, get a nice relationship going, be curtious, negotiate with facts and logic...never take a bite at the first apple and stick to your guns when it comes to what you want. Ive done mannnnny a deal for my family and friends, remember, the sales manager, who basically is creating your deal, is the guy u need to talk to, the salesman is more or less the mouth of the manager, skip him, cut the bs and get something going with the manager and have it be an amicable thing.
the number one thing i hear from friends that sell cars is, when someone storms into a dealership with demands and numbers, thats the last person they would like to sell a car to, after all, I wouldnt want some crazy person storming into my office telling me how to do my job (but hopefully you guys know what im getting at).
the number one thing i hear from friends that sell cars is, when someone storms into a dealership with demands and numbers, thats the last person they would like to sell a car to, after all, I wouldnt want some crazy person storming into my office telling me how to do my job (but hopefully you guys know what im getting at).
11-13-2007, 11:36 AM
#23
Trolling Canuckistan
Originally Posted by russianDude
Dealers don't want to post their BEST offer price, they are taking advantage of certain individuals which are either wealthy and don't care, or people who are not very good at negotiations.
. I know it's a horrible thing to admit, but that is why I come to work, to make money.The wealthy didn't get wealthy by paying a lot of money for things, they are typically the best negotiators.
My only point was that you aren't forced into negotiations, you can pay what we are asking for the car. When you buy a TV, you typically pay the price on the tag. Same thing when you buy clothes at the store. I am positive that most of the things you purchase at the asking price are at a higher percentage of profit vs cost than a car, but you never negotiate on those things.
Have you ever been to Starbucks (or Dunks for the New England locals) and negotiated the price of a coffee? That coffee probably cost them 20-30 cents to make including the cost of the cup, try offering them 50 cents over their cost and see where it gets you.
11-13-2007, 11:46 AM
#24
Suzuka Master
as soon as dealers start putting non-negotiable prices, the prices will naturally come down from MSRP. Yes, sure, you can put MSRP as your non-negotiable price, but when nobody buys it, you will lower it, and you will also compete with other dealerships.
Its not fair for a good negotiator to get a better price vs. someone with a weak psycology. Lets say a women walks by who is clueless about cars and prices, why should she get ripped off???
Its not fair for a good negotiator to get a better price vs. someone with a weak psycology. Lets say a women walks by who is clueless about cars and prices, why should she get ripped off???
11-13-2007, 11:55 AM
#25
Originally Posted by russianDude
as soon as dealers start putting non-negotiable prices, the prices will naturally come down from MSRP. Yes, sure, you can put MSRP as your non-negotiable price, but when nobody buys it, you will lower it, and you will also compete with other dealerships.
Its not fair for a good negotiator to get a better price vs. someone with a weak psycology. Lets say a women walks by who is clueless about cars and prices, why should she get ripped off???
Its not fair for a good negotiator to get a better price vs. someone with a weak psycology. Lets say a women walks by who is clueless about cars and prices, why should she get ripped off???
this is business, not everyone gets a fair shake of the stick. If we took 10 ppl on this board, all 10 with an RDX, guarantee there would be 10 different prices. nothing is set in stone with cars, and righfully so, theres money to be made, and hey, cheers to the guy who can make the extra buck. If you are the person that gets taken advantage of, well, that sucks, but its your own fault.
11-13-2007, 12:09 PM
#26
Trolling Canuckistan
It's a capitalist society and prices on cars are determined by supply and demand. When the RDX came out, people paid MSRP for the car and in many instances waited to get their vehicle. At that point market value for a RDX was MSRP. The same thing happened with the MDX in 2001 and again in 2007.
Does that mean that people who bought at MSRP got ripped off? Absolutely not, they paid fair market value for the vehicle.
When I got my ipod it was $399 for a 30GB ipod video. Apparently, they cost a lot less than that now. Did I get ripped off? No, I paid fair market value.
Again, until you start to negotiate for everything you buy and not buy it until you get a discount, you are putting unfair expectations on the car dealer to just give up his profits (we are here to make money).
Forget the coffee example, I want to see what happens when you're out of gas and none of the local gas stations will give you a discount over their advertised price. Will you still choose not to buy?
Does that mean that people who bought at MSRP got ripped off? Absolutely not, they paid fair market value for the vehicle.
When I got my ipod it was $399 for a 30GB ipod video. Apparently, they cost a lot less than that now. Did I get ripped off? No, I paid fair market value.
Again, until you start to negotiate for everything you buy and not buy it until you get a discount, you are putting unfair expectations on the car dealer to just give up his profits (we are here to make money).
Forget the coffee example, I want to see what happens when you're out of gas and none of the local gas stations will give you a discount over their advertised price. Will you still choose not to buy?
11-13-2007, 03:22 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by black label
It's a capitalist society and prices on cars are determined by supply and demand. When the RDX came out, people paid MSRP for the car and in many instances waited to get their vehicle. At that point market value for a RDX was MSRP. The same thing happened with the MDX in 2001 and again in 2007.
Does that mean that people who bought at MSRP got ripped off? Absolutely not, they paid fair market value for the vehicle.
When I got my ipod it was $399 for a 30GB ipod video. Apparently, they cost a lot less than that now. Did I get ripped off? No, I paid fair market value.
Again, until you start to negotiate for everything you buy and not buy it until you get a discount, you are putting unfair expectations on the car dealer to just give up his profits (we are here to make money).
Forget the coffee example, I want to see what happens when you're out of gas and none of the local gas stations will give you a discount over their advertised price. Will you still choose not to buy?
Does that mean that people who bought at MSRP got ripped off? Absolutely not, they paid fair market value for the vehicle.
When I got my ipod it was $399 for a 30GB ipod video. Apparently, they cost a lot less than that now. Did I get ripped off? No, I paid fair market value.
Again, until you start to negotiate for everything you buy and not buy it until you get a discount, you are putting unfair expectations on the car dealer to just give up his profits (we are here to make money).
Forget the coffee example, I want to see what happens when you're out of gas and none of the local gas stations will give you a discount over their advertised price. Will you still choose not to buy?
11-13-2007, 04:35 PM
#28
Safety Car
Originally Posted by black label
I am positive that most of the things you purchase at the asking price are at a higher percentage of profit vs cost than a car, but you never negotiate on those things.
I just saved 33% off his prices on NGK plugs for the GTI, got them the same day and paid no shipping. Didn't have to deal with an internet unknown. He does this for no other reason than I asked him to....negotiate.
Retail shops will often give 10 - 15% off if one asks the Manager in a polite and civil fashion.
Haven't tried my Acura parts manager yet, but he's aware that I buy all my fluids/parts there (except the Mobil 1 filter).
By the way, we live in a Mixed Market Economy, not a Capitalist Society.
11-13-2007, 04:55 PM
#29
Trolling Canuckistan
Originally Posted by XLR8R
My Volkwagen dealer will match the price of parts I print off the internet. I would prefer to buy OEM, and he would prefer to make the sale.
I just saved 33% off his prices on NGK plugs for the GTI, got them the same day and paid no shipping. Didn't have to deal with an internet unknown. He does this for no other reason than I asked him to....negotiate.
Retail shops will often give 10 - 15% off if one asks the Manager in a polite and civil fashion.
Haven't tried my Acura parts manager yet, but he's aware that I buy all my fluids/parts there (except the Mobil 1 filter).
By the way, we live in a Mixed Market Economy, not a Capitalist Society.
I just saved 33% off his prices on NGK plugs for the GTI, got them the same day and paid no shipping. Didn't have to deal with an internet unknown. He does this for no other reason than I asked him to....negotiate.
Retail shops will often give 10 - 15% off if one asks the Manager in a polite and civil fashion.
Haven't tried my Acura parts manager yet, but he's aware that I buy all my fluids/parts there (except the Mobil 1 filter).
By the way, we live in a Mixed Market Economy, not a Capitalist Society.
11-13-2007, 06:12 PM
#30
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by black label
It's a capitalist society and prices on cars are determined by supply and demand. When the RDX came out, people paid MSRP for the car and in many instances waited to get their vehicle. At that point market value for a RDX was MSRP. The same thing happened with the MDX in 2001 and again in 2007.
Dealers should post their ask prices, and consumers should post their bids.
The best ask price is the lowest any dealer will go, and the best bid is the highest any given consumer is willing to pay. This pair determines your current market price at any given time. The whole thing would be simplified a great deal if you just get bunch of quotes, and then pick your best one. btw, this is how stock market works. When I place a market order to buy/sell an equity, any reputable stock exchange (not ECN) will guarantee the best national price at that moment of time. this is what I'd like to see in car sales.
Electronic trading is killing profit margins of brokers (spread is getting smaller). I envision the same future for car salesmen. Once you determined what you want to buy, the middle man should make the minimum... he becomes unnecessary...
Doing paper work and financing your car can be done by documentation department (thats why you pay a doc. fee).
And yes, sales should be fair to everyone. The price is free to move up and down any time, but at fixed point of time a dealership should have the same price quote for customer A and customer B, this makes it a fair market.
11-13-2007, 06:36 PM
#31
Trolling Canuckistan
^^^
If customer A is looking at a relatively undesirable color combo that has been in my inventory for 6 months and customer B is looking at a black on black car (highly desirable) that has been in inventory for 3 days, Customer A is going to get a lower price. That doesn't necessarily mean a better deal. I would give customer B the same deal if he was looking at the same car.
The car that has been my inventory for 6 months is costing me money, I want it to go and I'm motivated to take a shit deal to do it. We won't make a profit, but it will stop the bleeding.
I could be sitting next to you on an airplane, we got on the plane at the same place and were going to the same place. Chances are, we didn't pay the same price for the ticket.
Again, my point is don't get angry at the dealership when you hold us to a different standard than every other retail market.
If customer A is looking at a relatively undesirable color combo that has been in my inventory for 6 months and customer B is looking at a black on black car (highly desirable) that has been in inventory for 3 days, Customer A is going to get a lower price. That doesn't necessarily mean a better deal. I would give customer B the same deal if he was looking at the same car.
The car that has been my inventory for 6 months is costing me money, I want it to go and I'm motivated to take a shit deal to do it. We won't make a profit, but it will stop the bleeding.
I could be sitting next to you on an airplane, we got on the plane at the same place and were going to the same place. Chances are, we didn't pay the same price for the ticket.
Again, my point is don't get angry at the dealership when you hold us to a different standard than every other retail market.
11-13-2007, 08:11 PM
#33
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by black label
^^^
I would give customer B the same deal if he was looking at the same car.
I would give customer B the same deal if he was looking at the same car.
And this is exactly where I think it becomes unfair. If customer A did not do his homework, it is very easy to make him believe that he won't get this car below certain price, where in reality its a lie, and that's where it becomes unfair (not only unfair - unethical!)
When you are buying airline tickets you can get quotes from many sources and pick the best deal at a given point of time. I don't have to go through a hassler playing psychological games with me trying to squeeze an extra buck.
11-13-2007, 08:14 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins. Thanks to internet people can get a fair price..... Before I purchased my RDX I did a lot research on internet about prices, I knew exactly the breaking price point, and they could not do anything about, they were crying when I told them "I know I can get it at this price, if not here, I will go to the other dealership"
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
Honestly, I don't see a point of dealers and their gimmicks, I really hope that in future I can be ordering cars directly from manufacture, no point for dealers!
11-13-2007, 08:17 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by russianDude
You would have the same breaking point (would not go any lower than a certain price), but it does not mean you would miss an opportunity to maximize your profits if customer A is less educated than customer B.
And this is exactly where I think it becomes unfair. If customer A did not do his homework, it is very easy to make him believe that he won't get this car below certain price, where in reality its a lie, and that's where it becomes unfair (not only unfair - unethical!)
When you are buying airline tickets you can get quotes from many sources and pick the best deal at a given point of time. I don't have to go through a hassler playing psychological games with me trying to squeeze an extra buck.
And this is exactly where I think it becomes unfair. If customer A did not do his homework, it is very easy to make him believe that he won't get this car below certain price, where in reality its a lie, and that's where it becomes unfair (not only unfair - unethical!)
When you are buying airline tickets you can get quotes from many sources and pick the best deal at a given point of time. I don't have to go through a hassler playing psychological games with me trying to squeeze an extra buck.
Sounds like you had a run in with some great salespeople, just remember they do it everyday and you do it only a few times in your life.
11-14-2007, 11:37 AM
#36
Safety Car
Originally Posted by russianDude
I am loving it !! Information flow on internet must be killing those scumbags profit margins
Originally Posted by russianDude
You would have the same breaking point (would not go any lower than a certain price), [B]but it does not mean you would miss an opportunity to maximize your profits if customer A is less educated than customer B.....
And this is exactly where I think it becomes unfair. If customer A did not do his homework, it is very easy to make him believe that he won't get this car below certain price, where in reality its a lie, and that's where it becomes unfair (not only unfair - unethical!)
And this is exactly where I think it becomes unfair. If customer A did not do his homework, it is very easy to make him believe that he won't get this car below certain price, where in reality its a lie, and that's where it becomes unfair (not only unfair - unethical!)
No goods/services provider sets prices out of selfless concern for the welfare of others. A well run business maximizes profit. The consumer has a responsilbilty to act in his own best interest.
After I purchase my NGK plugs from the VW dealer at 33% off list, he will, without a twinge of guilt , sell them to customer B for full price. Were these "fair" transactions? Absolutely, because both customers agreed to the terms. Was the seller "ethical"? Absolutely, because it his his responsibility as a seller to act in his own best interest.
Customer B, in failing to "do his homework", has paid the penalty for an unsound economic decision. He has also done a disservice to all consumers by inching the market value higher.
Could knowledge of the price disparity backfire on the dealer? Sure it could, and then, it is in his own best interest to address customer B's grievance or a competitor will. This is a self-correcting feature of the free market, and it leads to higher quality goods and services for all.
11-14-2007, 03:03 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by XLR8R
It's apparent that you view market economics from the comsumer perspective only. The setting of market values requires a knowledgable, willing seller and a knowledgable, willing buyer; both acting without pressure, and both acting in their own best interest. Fairness in economics does not exist because there is no standard for it.
No goods/services provider sets prices out of selfless concern for the welfare of others. A well run business maximizes profit. The consumer has a responsilbilty to act in his own best interest.
After I purchase my NGK plugs from the VW dealer at 33% off list, he will, without a twinge of guilt , sell them to customer B for full price. Were these "fair" transactions? Absolutely, because both customers agreed to the terms. Was the seller "ethical"? Absolutely, because it his his responsibility as a seller to act in his own best interest.
Customer B, in failing to "do his homework", has paid the penalty for an unsound economic decision. He has also done a disservice to all consumers by inching the market value higher.
Could knowledge of the price disparity backfire on the dealer? Sure it could, and then, it is in his own best interest to address customer B's grievance or a competitor will. This is a self-correcting feature of the free market, and it leads to higher quality goods and services for all.
No goods/services provider sets prices out of selfless concern for the welfare of others. A well run business maximizes profit. The consumer has a responsilbilty to act in his own best interest.
After I purchase my NGK plugs from the VW dealer at 33% off list, he will, without a twinge of guilt , sell them to customer B for full price. Were these "fair" transactions? Absolutely, because both customers agreed to the terms. Was the seller "ethical"? Absolutely, because it his his responsibility as a seller to act in his own best interest.
Customer B, in failing to "do his homework", has paid the penalty for an unsound economic decision. He has also done a disservice to all consumers by inching the market value higher.
Could knowledge of the price disparity backfire on the dealer? Sure it could, and then, it is in his own best interest to address customer B's grievance or a competitor will. This is a self-correcting feature of the free market, and it leads to higher quality goods and services for all.
is it ok to charge someone a higher price because they are willing to pay more, have little interest in learning things on thier own and will enter into the agreement with eyes open? Absolutely.
Is it ok to play up the importance of options packages and service packages that provide marginal (at best) benefits and use false statistics/arguments about how important a particular insurance package is, even though there are exclusions all over the place and the payoff rate sucks? Not a chance.
I think those are the kinds of things that really piss people off and give dealers such a bad rap. The guy sideswiped by a hard push for "tire insurance" or some other such nonsense is hit at a moment of weakness (that is precisely why he is hit at that point after the original sale is done), which is done to try to take advantage of people.
And is it ok to manipulate the way you present information to give someone a worse deal than they would othersie be willing to settle for? Not really, though this is less clear cut. It involves manipulation, though this manipulation could be avoided if the cusotmer were not as ignorant/dumb.
I think the line is between the dealer trying to drive a hard bargain (which is perfectly fine and consistent with capitalist principles) and between the dealer trying to hide facts or impart "facts" which are just not true or manipulating facts to create a false impression. it pisses people off at the local electronics store and it pisses people off at car dealrships.
Just you end up with some useless warranty in an electronics store it may cost you a hundred bucks. End up with some useless underbelly protection, some extended service full of holes you only find out about later or some extended service you are told is "essential" only to find out no one actually needs it, and it will really piss people off, especially as it can add thousands of dollars to the cost of a vehicle.
Just my 2 cents (though as they are Canadian cents, they are worth about 2.1 cents now)
11-14-2007, 03:16 PM
#39
Suzuka Master
like it or not, but dealers profit margins will continue to get squeezed with information flow on internet. Its all coming to electronic quoting. today you can fill out a quote and get responses.... the responses are still bogus, but its getting better. I have no sympathy for the dealers getting out of business. (hate to see someone lose his job), but thats the future.
11-14-2007, 03:44 PM
#40
Originally Posted by russianDude
like it or not, but dealers profit margins will continue to get squeezed with information flow on internet. Its all coming to electronic quoting. today you can fill out a quote and get responses.... the responses are still bogus, but its getting better. I have no sympathy for the dealers getting out of business. (hate to see someone lose his job), but thats the future.
The things you fill out on the internet are basically fishing hooks waiting for bait. Those arent legit, they are RSVP cards to get ur body thru the door of the dealership.
If you were 100% set on seeing/ordering/dealing a car through the internet you would buy wholesale through the services of Cosco and the like.