phile

Great minds think alike
I drew up a would be luxury sedan for Acura on another message board

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...curaGLcopy.gif

gocubsgo55

now that looks great! the thing is though, I doubt Honda will make the "GL" type-thing more aggressive than the RL. I think the RL design would have been better suited for the "GL", and what you have drawn up would have been great for the RL, it looks like a perfect mix between the TL and RL. We're not Honda, though, well see what they come up with soon.

AcuraFan

I'm sorry, but I'm not finding much of anything promising about Justin's posts.

TSX:
No IMA (it would be cool but not too surprising). No more 6MT? Now that's just wrong! One of the reasons the TSX is so critically acclaimed is because of it's wonderful 6MT!

HSC:
No HSC? Does that mean no Honda supercar? Just when Nissan and Toyota are entering that market? Hmm...maybe Honda is doing now what Toyota has been doing for the last couple years...improve their sedan and SUV offerings and THEN work on their sports cars. Well, here's hoping anyway.

RSX:
Again, Acura seems to be getting rid of all that is sporty in their line. No sports coupes? If the TSX loses it's 6spd and the NSX and RSX go away, how can Acura possibly consider itself a performance car company? It's suddenly becoming a line of automatic sedans and SUVs.

RDX:
What brings me to the RDX. I'm very eager to see how this all turns out. I think it looks great and promises to be quite good.

d-rock

the GL would be a great addition to acuras line up.

acura should put the RL's drivetrain into the TL as a limited edition model like the M, AMG, S series. that way it won't eat up the sales for the RL.

it sad to see the 6mt might not be there anymore for the tsx. if its the case when im ready to buy a new car within the year or 2 the tsx would be off the list since there won't be a 6speed manual.

it would also be sad to see the rsx go unless they replace it with something in the 26k catagory that is more luxurious and still as sporty if not more so.

dom

It went out with the trash along with the HSC.....

Precision Crafted

The SMG tranny would be great assuming Honda uses Audi's as a benchmark! I've read great things about that clutchless wonder that is supposedly better then those found on Exotic cars from the Black Stallion company.

AcuraFan

Well, if the RDX can get the 240hp 3.0 from the Accord then I think it will actually compete with the RX330...which would be fun.

brutus

It ain't gonna have 240, simple as that.... but if it did happen.... aaaah the joy.

Ideal scenario:

V6 w/ VCM, 240 HP... 230 lb ft Torque.

As Picard likes to say "Make It So"

Now can I hear from Justin on those paddle shifters...we gonna get 'em?

B.

AcuraFan

Oh, I know...I know. Leave it to Honda to develop an engine just for this application (torqueless with adequate HP) when an engine in their stable would seemingly work better.

Heaven forbid they produce something that might sneak into FX territory...because, you know...Honda is trying to stress performance...they said so themselves.

In any event, the RDX is going to be a great (though slightly underpowered) ride. If it has over 200hp, I'll strongly consider it.

Professor Gascan

Tom Elliot already said that it will have more than 200hp, just not how much more. Combine that with the possiblity of a V6, and I think we're looking at a J30 V6 (Accord V6) with 215hp and 215 lb-ft of torque, with 90% available anywhere above 2500rpm. The Accord makes 240hp and 212lb-ft now, there's no way they're going to get 230lb-ft out of this engine while keeping 240hp.

vicpai

.......However, I'm inclined to believe that Peak torque will be somewhere in the range of 225 to 230 lb.ft.

Hopefully Honda realizes that, at least in the case of an SUV, torque is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than top-end horsepower. So, with some re-tuning of the 3.0 (Accord V6), where peak hp is 215bhp (which, BTW is 25bhp less than the Accord) it is MOST DEFINITELY possible for them to obtain around 230 lb.ft. of peak torque (18 lb.ft. over the Accord), and like you said, around 90% to 95% of it available over a broad RPM range (a nice, mesa shaped torque curve).......Personally, I don't really give a damn about top-end power, and would like to see peak torque closer to 240 lb.ft. (say 210bhp and 240lb.ft....... but knowing the way Honda works , this is a very unlikely scenario!!

vicpai

......in my previous reply, is the fact that the Honda Accord achieves it's hp and torque figures using REGULAR 87-octane fuel. I've read somehwere that a Honda engineer "unofficially" admitted that the Accord Engine was designed to run on both regular and premium and that it produces a few more hp and torque using PREMIUM. Additionally, dyno testing at vtec.net showed an increase of about 8 to 10bhp and lb.ft. ot power and torque respectively, when using Premium fuel.

Considering that this will be an ACURA, it will stress performance, over the 18-cent (or whatever) savings of using regular over premium, and so, they just might come up with numbers of around 220bhp and 240lb.ft. of torque......THIS WILL DEFINITELY BE A DREAM COME TRUE!!!!!

Precision Crafted

More torque would be nice and it would be nice for Honda to do something un-Honda like. Honda loves high end hp. The TL for example has very good hp #'s yet the torque is somewhat lacking. Just imagine what that car could do with with 250 foot lbs of torque. The MDX has good hp #'s too yet the torque is somewhat lacking.

Has Honda realized that torque in a truck is desirable?? Well will soon find out, yet I will not hold my breath. I think the RDX will impress people when it comes out. The MDX has been a sucess since day one. Acura is on a roll with its new products. Acura sees what can happen when they (some what) give buyers what they want. Acura studied the SUV market well and look at the MDX and its cousin the Honda Pilot. The competition has been poked, proded, and examined inside and out.

I'm sure it'll use premium fuel as it'll be an Acura. It'll be interesting to see what engine will be under the hood. Yet with an on sale date sometime next year it'll be December before we may know something unless we hear from our friend Justin before then.

vybzkartel

Hey Justin, why you be dissin' us?!?!

More info on the "large sedan" from Acura?
How about some V8 info?

phile

What about the 3.2L from the TL?

provench

Odyssey - 255HP / 250 TQ
Pilot - 255HP / 250 TQ
Ridgeline - 255HP / (couldn't find torque, but I think you can guess which engine it is using
MDX - 265HP / 253 TQ

So my guess is based on the above they are going to try for a well balanced engine that pushes torque more along the lines of the above ratio vs. the sedan/coupe ratio (peaky HP) that we have long come to be familiar with for Acura/Honda.

Here's to hoping it hits around the 230 HP /220 TQ ratio with that tuned for torque J30 V6 ... I can dream

dom

I believe its 252 lb-ft.

biker

All of this minutia about the engine seems to be lost in the fact that this is an SUV.

It's not a sports car folks.

Precision Crafted

True but if (and I doubt it but I'll eat my words) the RDX has the 2.4 from the TSX, the performance will suffer due to the fact that this SUV will be heavy due to the extra sound deading material, and luxury items it'll have. The 2.4 will huff and puff its way up a steep hill no matter how much pwr Acura can ring out of the motor (unless they turbo charge it , which I too doubt).

It makes sense then to use a V6 to compensate for the weight gain over the CR-V. Also, Acura is the one who started the "Performance SUV" talk not any of us. We're just happy that the'll be a new vehicle in the stable and for those folks who thought the MDX was too big this will help them.

dom

I agree.

Alot of talk about how great it will handle in comparison to the TSX as well????

provench

Neither is the TL nor the TSX, but we talk about the handling and acceleration characteristics of those

So I say ... ease up ... there are a lot of folks that want to understand how this car will drive and feel versus what they are used to. Don't worry ... the TSX vs. RDX drag stories will come later

I think I am going to go test drive an X3 and/or FX35 myself to get an idea of what else is out there ... especially the X3 from a performance standpoint.

By the way ... would you be as upset of they called this the TSX Wagon Cross Country

heyitsme

The power it needs really depends on how heavy it ends up being. Awd crv manual runs to 60 in ~8.5sec with ~3400lbs. Add 60hp for the rdx with the 2.4l and more torque, two hundred more lbs and I can see it moving decent, nothing to drag race in.

AcuraFan

Yeah, but we really aren't all that interested in 0-60 times with an SUV (unless they're really really good). We're more interested in hp numbers (for marketing purposes) and most importantly torque numbers (what really counts with SUVs).

heyitsme

Think a lot of people here will be interested to see the 0-60 since it represents how well the torque/hp move of a vehicle of this size.

Precision Crafted

To add to that, Acura is saying this will be a performance SUV. To me, performance means this thing is going move. No it isn't going to worry M55 AMG owners or Range Rover Sport drivers, but it should be above average.

heyitsme

I wouldn't put much faith in what Acura said as 'proof'. They also said vehicles with MORE than 270hp would get awd and here we have a vehicle that will almost certainly have less than 270 and its still getting awd.

kryptech

Actually, they said something along the lines of that 270 hp was around the maximum usable power for FWD. Now where and when this was said, I don't remember. Perhaps someone can find an exact quote on the matter.

phile

I remember that comment. It was when the new RL was still a big secret and whoever said it (CEO of Honda?) was dropping hints about its powertrain.

heyitsme

Think it was before the TL was released, remember people saying "rumor is the tl will have 290+hp, ima, awd."

More to the point I was trying to make, Honda only says enough to explain what is happening currently, not enough to paint a picture of what they have planned with their future lineup. Like shawd can be aplied to hondas current lineup of v6 and global cars, yet they leave out that it could also be an option on a newly designed light truck platform with 4cylinder or saying 270hp being the max for fwd just as they introduce the tl, yet they leave off there is the possibility of awd for future cars with 270hp and under including the tl etc.

dom

But they never said ONLY vehicles with more than 270HP will get AWD. There's a difference.

I do recall them saying something about SH-AWD requiring a V6 for technical reason's though. I don't think its possible to have SH-AWD mated to a 4 banger

And we have already seen video of a 3.0L Accord with SH-AWD on a track so we know that combo has already been done and tested.

I'd be willing to bet the RDX will have the 3L V6.

Precision Crafted

You are correct about the statement that SH-AWD was for V6 any of the current V6 cars. One technical reason could very well be that dispite carbon fiber drive shaft and such, the system adds weight as any AWD adds weight. I also don't think that Honda is stupid enough to add a heavy system to a 4 banger. Real Time AWD isn't has heavy as VTM-4/ SH-AWD.

heyitsme

And I find it hard to believe they ever said ONLY vehicles with a v6 will get shawd.

dom

I don't recall exactly what was said, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of SH-AWD needing a V6. Wheather that was only a philosophy or a technical requirement I don't know. Only time will tell.

Precision Crafted

What you're saying is what I seem to remember. When I something along those lines, I posted a comment that all Acura's minus the RSX and TSX could get SH-AWD as they are 4 bangers.

Maybe Honda has had a change of heart since then. One minute the NSX replacement is being looked at. The next minute the NSX is dead, and from what I've read it is dead.

Temple of VTEC is indicating that the RSX is dead. So, maybe there are some last minute changes.

I just do not see a heavy AWD system being used in a 4 banger. If a V6 is in the cards, then the CRV EX will have a V6 option that may come with SH-AWD. I don't know.

98AccordEx

Not sure why you don't see a 4cyl with AWD or 4WD when the CRV & Element already use it. RT4WD was recently improved for the 2005 CRV (dual pump?) principally to make it smoother and to act in coordination with VSA for safer application of power. Now that it is improved why wouldn't they use it on other 4cyl cars/SUVs. The CRV engine and tranny are heavily based on the Accord/TSX 4cyl so it would be easily adaptable if there is clearance for the components going toward the rear wheels.

Precision Crafted

I don't see a 4 banger with SH-AWD. Real Time was first used in this country on the Civic Wagovan of the 80's and Civic's then used small 4 cylinder engines. The weight gain wasn't too bad as to make the Wagovan a slug of a crossover. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, the Wagovan was a 5 door tall hatch. Think Forester for a general idea. It was a tall Civic.

Even with the update to RTAWD that system is nothing like VTM4. RT needs to sense wheel slip before shelling out power to the back. VTM4 sends power to the back before any wheel slip begins.

The CRV's 2.4 is used in the Accord and TSX. SH-AWD is used so far in the RL. Not even the Ridgeline gets it. Now we do know that VTM4=SH-AWD (the later is more complex with the transfer of power between the rear tires and the ratio front to back) and that the Ridgeline will have a locking rear diff. Is it the same thing we now see in the MDX and Pilot? Don't know. We do also know that the RDX will use SH-AWD not RTAWD.

98AccordEx

Remember? I still see a Civic RT4WD Wagon once an a while in the office parking lot. It's pretty tall & small more like a boxy Matrix. Back when it came out though it was that or Subies for small vehicles without a body on frame, now look at the market.

I get what you're saying about VTM4 'anticipating slip' but that is computer programming tied in to the electronic throttle and transfer case not ESP. The would imagine something similar could be applied to RT4WD without adding too mch weight - granted it would take some work but there seems to be little the HMC engineers can't pull off. I don't see the 2007 CRV getting SH-AWD even if it has an optional V6 but maybe VTM4 or a modified RT4WD. SH-AWD should be kept for Acuras.

Precision Crafted

SH-AWD should be an Acura only feature for the time being. Eventually, the Accord is going to have to have AWD when hp reaches close to the current TL. Also, I'm sure there are ways to make RTAWD more intelligent.

98AccordEx

Agreed, I would hope the 2008 Accord would offer a AWD or 4wd option if they raise the stakes on the V6 engine although at 240 I'm not sure they will have to increase the Accords HP, they could just increase it's efficiency. Even if they don't the option would be nice and keep the Accord in league with the Passat. I wouldn't be surprised if the Camry and Altima offer a V6 AWD or 4WD option on their next versions.

Precision Crafted

It would be nice to see AWD for the next Accord but I won't hold my breath. Maybe the generation after next. 240hp from 3.0 is good, very good. Others need larger V6's to get that figure or better.

I'm not sure if the 3.0 will be in the cards for the next Accord. 240 maybe as high as it can go.

And who knows about the next Camry with a somewhat new 3.5 280 hp motor in the family.