nickbeee

On my ’98 Acura 2.3 CL

Over the weekend (when it was cold in the AM) my car kinda screwed up while starting.

1st attempt sounded like it cranked for half a second then stopped. Turned ignition off, turned it again and it started with no problem. Let the engine run for 30 secs then tried again. Started with no problem.

Did this a few times, but only when cold.

My two thoughts are the battery could be getting tired and showing it when cold (it’s 4 years old and a cheap Costco brand). Or something funky is going on with the starter like a flat spot in the motor (that is original at 212K miles). Since the problem is not happening all the time I wonder how I should trouble shoot. If I get the batter tested it might not show anything if it’s just happening when cold…

Any ideas?

beancenzo

sounds like the battery. do you have a battery tester? or you can take it to a place and they'll usually test it for free, hoping you'll buy a battery from them.

nickbeee

The battery is under a limited warrantee so I would only have to pay for half of it at this point to get a replacement. Thing is Costco does not test batteries, they just replace them.

I was thinking I could bring it to an autozone but if it’s only acting up when cold it might test fine on the bench? I have jumper cables just in case, but I think I’ll leave it in the car for somw and see what happens once it’s more consistently cold out.

beancenzo

some batteries have that light on it, green is good, off is dead. the variable starting in the cold is a sign that the battery is not holding it's charge. do you notice if it constantly starts bad?

after you drive it for a few minutes, the alternator would have given it a charge, but the test will be able to distinguish. since you live in a cold weather area, i'd just shell out for a new battery or have costco do it's thing. you don't won't to be stuck someplace and be late to work or wherever you're going.

nickbeee

It's been cold the last few days (got our 1st frost) in the AM and the problem has not come back. If there is an issue I'm sure it will show as temps get cool... We'll see.. For now I do have jumpers in the truck just in case...

TexasHonda

I would first clean the battery cables, posts and resecure them. There is a small voltmeter at Walmart (~$15) that plugs into your cigarette lighter. Get this and monitor voltage. It should be about 14V w/ low load after startup.

You could have a bad starter. Did the starter turn the engine slowly, or simply shutdown abruptly? A shutdown could be a keyswitch issue (failure of keyswitch disables starter solenoid power which disables starting).

good luck

nickbeee

Ok Guys it did it again this morning. I don’t think it’s the battery. My lights never dimmed, this is what happened:

1st crank:
Engine cranked for 1/2sec then stopped, not clicking, nothing…

Turn ignition off, back on to start, no noise at all, no cranking.

Turn ignition off again, turn to start, started right up!

Stopped a few places on the way to work and it started fine.

OK so should I assume it’s an intermittent problem with my starter? I know Vato-Zone can test starters, but would they be able to tell me anything if the problem is not consistent. Would my whole starter assembly have to be replaced or just the motor? What about rebuilding the motor? I know there is a break down in the manual. I’m not afraid to learn something new.

Thanks!

FYI, my ignition switch is about a year old (recall).

TexasHonda

Starters do fail but rarely is it the motor. Mostly it's the solenoid that fails. I've never heard one start and then stop. That's why I suspected the keyswitch.

I think I would live w/ it a little longer to see if problem gradually get's worse. This should reveal the source of the problem. However, if you want quicker results, I would suggest rigging a "tell-tale" light to the solenoid drive wire. The light would come on whenever the solenoid is energized by keyswitch. If this light is on, and you have no-start, the solenoid seems most likely. I use the folding wire splice fittings to minimize damage to your car's wiring (only a single puncture to the wire). You can ground to any convenient point. The solenoid drive wire is usually blk/wht.

Other possibilities are security system, AT gear position switch, or start cut relay (if you have one).

Sorry for the double post. I had the earlier post sitting on my system overnight and forgot I posted when I sat down.

good luck

nickbeee

Texas, I like the idea of the light! I have a manual trans. I thought maybe my clutch switch was to blame. so I held the ign switch at the start pos (when the starter was not making noise or spinning) and pumped my clutch up and down. I could hear a relay click on and off from the dash area while I did this. So I assume the switch is ok. Does that rule out the ign switch also?

Back to the starter. If the solenoid did not pop for some reason the starter would not spin right? Is there any way to service or replace just the solenoid without replacing the entire starter? Or for the 150ish bucks for a starter is it not worth fooling with?

That being said if I need to replace the starter is there a brand or source you recommend?

As always thanks for the info!

TexasHonda

The 2.2CL starter solenoid was repairable. You could disassemble and replace the copper solenoid contacts. I've done this on my daughter's 2.2CL. It takes a 100w or more soldering iron, but not much else. Starter is very easy to access for removal/installation.

Check sherco-auto.com for solenoid contacts. You may need to pull your solenoid to match the correct contact from their parts.

Clutch switch performs same function as automatic trans switch and the sound under the dash was the starter relay as you opened/closed the clutch interlock switch. This probably rules out the ignition keyswitch as the problem. Starter relay could be faulty, even though you hear it throwing. It may not close the contacts sufficiently to complete the circuit to the starter solenoid. It's probably down to the Starter Relay or Starter Solenoid, as cause of your problem.

good luck

nickbeee

OK,, Today's Incident (happened once with about 10 start ups during the day).

Ing switch to start, nothing (no crank no noises).

Kept the ign switch on start, lifted clutch (hear click from dash)

Kept the ign switch on, pressed clutch, started right up...

I'm def going to wire up your tell-tale light and run it into my interior. That should help us narrow it down. Hope to do it tomorrow or Sunday. Stay tunned for more and thanks!

BTW, I have a '98 2.3 CL. Can still replace those contacts right? I have a 100W soldering iron and I'm good with it.

Thanks again!

nickbeee

Also found this site...

http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/densoparts.html

Do you normally replace the plunger while you are at it? Looking forward to seeing what is the issue (Starter Relay or Starter Solenoid).

TexasHonda

There are two parts to the starter solenoid electrical path for high starter currents (up to 350A), the electrical contacts which wear badly and the plunger copper ring, which does not wear as rapidly but does pit and roughen. I did not replace this, and so far the starter is working (over 1 yr).

It is possible your starter solenoid may not be repairable. I found the solenoid on my 97 Acura 2.5TL starter was a sealed module w/ a crimped closure. The solenioid is replaceable, but I had to purchase a rebuilt starter to get car going again.

good luck

nickbeee

ooookay! Figured if the tell-tale light points to the solenoid I'll call the guys in my link above. They seem to have the parts and procedures down to model #s of starters. I'll see what they say for kits / parts. I'm stopping my radio shack today to pick up a small 12v light. I thought I had some LED motorcycle directional lights I could wire up. Then I remembered I sold them...

Stay tuned for more!

TexasHonda

That's a good site for info, but Sherco Auto Supply prices are much better, roughly 1/2 the price for 10 contacts vs. 2 contacts from WAI.

Looks like you have a repairable solenoid.

good luck

nickbeee

Ok here's an update. Went to my local ACE and found this gem for 21 cents:



Good new is no there is no cutting or damaging the blk / wht wire. I wired another spade connector for the other tell-tale wire.

And here it is in action:




That motorcycle directional light I had came in handy! Of course I bet it will be a week till the problem shows itself again! But I"ll be ready for it.

Thanks again for your help!

nickbeee

OK,, Thanks to the light I have it narrowed down to the starter (thanks to the tell tale light)…

Here’s what happened this morning…

1st start attempt – weak crank for a half a second, then nothing… (tell tale light was on)

2nd attempt – no noise at all (light was on)

3rd attempt – weak crank for half sec (light was on)

4th attempt, started right up…

So I guess the question now is should I replace the solenoid contacts or the entire starter. If the contacts are worn maybe the motor is not getting the current it needs and that’s why I’m getting those half second weak cranks sometimes? Or do you think it’s a sign of the motor going south somehow…

Tell me what you think…

TexasHonda

It's almost certainly the solenoid; either the contacts are worn or the solenoid drive coil is intermittent. There is a small possibility of defective starter brushes.

I would remove the starter, open the solenoid and examine the contacts. It should be apparent if the contacts are the probelm. Worn contacts will have a deep worn ring where the plunger rams into the contacts. W/ high current flow, the contacts wear and finally one side or other of the contacts is lower than the other, preventing an effective completion of circuit by the plunger contact.

good luck

nickbeee

Gotcha! I'll remove the starter this weekend and take a look! I'll post what I find...

nickbeee

ok!

got my contact and plunger kit on order. Guy said there should be no soldering involved for my application. We'll see once I tear into it...

TexasHonda

I seem to remember some soldering for my daughter's 97 2.2CL, but I could be wrong.

good luck

nickbeee

So for the last week my car was getting BAD in the cold mornings / evenings here in NJ. Sometimes it was taking 10 tries to get my car to make contact and crank. But at least the problem was consistent. I got the contacts and plunger on order but I figured since I had a few hours to kill yesterday I’d look at my solenoid. Yanked it out of the car (took all of 10 mins) and this is what I found:







The contacts and plunger surface were pretty pitted up. And you could see how the contact have worn out. After cleaning everything up with some 600 sandpaper (per the service manual) I took my digital calipers to the worn part of the terminals. Sure enough the smaller terminal (starter side) was worn more by about 50 thousandths of an inch. The dude at the electrical place that I ordered the parts said the problem might be worse when cold because of metal expansion /contraction. I guess the cold weather is amplifying the difference in thickness and / or the were just pitted up and dirty from arcing and not making great contact to begin with. Oh the good news is no soldering is needed to get the contacts out.

I also had the thought of grinding the contacts down to the same thickness but then figured I should see if just cleaning them will get be by for the next week.

Sooooo After cleaning everything up the car started perfectly this morning (20 deg here). So I’m thinking my quick cleaning job should hold me over till next weekend when I can install the new contacts / plunger.

nickbeee

BTW, when the new plunger goes in should it be lightly greased? Seemed like it was when I took it apart….

TexasHonda

I would say no. The arcing will burn grease. Also most grease is an electrical insulator, not what you want on contacts. I would clean everything nice and shiny w/ solvent (alchohol or laquer thinner), but nothing greasy.

I don't remember anything about grease from any of the instructions at contact provider's websites.

good luck