there's a reason why i'm comparing tein ss to a custom koni setup..it's because they are in the same price range

tein ra's? dunno where they came from in this convo but yes seeing how they cost twice as much as a koni + ground control setup they damn well better perform better than a koni and ground control setup...but then for the price of the RA's, there's even a HUGER market with more options to run rather than the RA's, but if you have the money to dish out for these coilovers then no one is stopping you..if you are in the price range of the ra's, don't compare them to koni yellows..simply not in the same price range or class...take a look at koni's higher end shocks and coilovers but i have little to no knowledge about them because they are way beyond my price range and where dual adjustability and all that comes into play

hks, jic, all the others are also for the big ballers..a custom koni yellow setup is cost effective for the price and it works..it's been proven time and time again

when i said the 6k and 8k i was referring to the tein ss, not the ra which costs an arm and a leg


i don't run koni and gc simply because i can't afford them..i'm running omnipower coilovers (split from skunk2) which were well within my price range and come with 10k and 12k rates out the box without needing to be revalved..this is why i chose them

All i'm running are the coilovers, disconnected front swaybar, a rear s/t swaybar, and 205/50/15 azenis (will be replaced with next year's new sizes and design)...i guess to you my suspension is worthless but i'm very please with my placement in my class and index considering my level of experience

i guess then the setup of most of the honda challenge race cars don't make sense either..as well as almost all fwd autox cars

reason behind the higher spring rates and rear swaybar is to get the car to rotate more...switching from kyb agx with hnr sport springs to the new rates was a night and day difference...my friend with an m3 and has years more experience than me could easily tell my car was able to rotate much better after watching and riding with me

some people opt for higher front rates for better turn in but this causes understeer so you'd have to tune that out with a really large rear swaybar, lots of camber, toe settings, and staggered tires...much easier to slap on higher rear rates

kyb's aren't bad shocks..just not that good for any type of racing...they are only compression adjustable instead of rebound adjustable unlike all the other shocks out there (unless the shocks are double adjustable)

i rant and rave about koni yellows because i've ridden in a few cars with them and loved them..and they are one of the few companies that can back up their performance with graphs of the shock's dampening at various piston speeds..when compared these graphs to other shocks of the same price the konis blow them away

 

sorry i tend to associate alot of the high dollar suspension setups with some type of racing...i don't see why someone would spend $800 on a suspension system for comfort when a $500 system would be fine...but i'm poor so...=)

 

The reason why I made the comment about the ra's is because you said the TEIN dampener can only handle 8k/6k springs. Rather have the ss's rather than the koni/gc setup being that the dampning is way more controlable, and can go from street/track with turns of the dial. With the koni/gc setup your stuck with a stiff ride always.(as noted by clpower)


never seen anysuch reference on the TEIN website.




Obviously, your a big autocrosser, that runs struts that are non dampening adjustable?? What good is that?



Obviously, changing the spring rates to higher one's will make a dramatic change over the suspension as a whole. I don't understand your theory on the rear spring rates, but you know your the master autocross racer. Also being that you have no dampening adjustment, seem's that would be the only way for you to prevent understeer. Kyb's are comfort shocks, I didn't make the assumtion that they were used for racing. Your opinion on the koni/eibach setup don't impress me being that in your statement above, I am under the impression that your expirence, Is not as good as any other autocross racer which means your opinion means as much as me reading an article on how a company rants and raves on how good of a product they make. Anywho, I quit arguing because obviously I have different views from what you have.

 

what did u think was better, skunk2 or GC

 

it's funny how you see this as an argument..are you getting mad for some reason?

re read my posts and tell me when i consider myself a big time autocrosser

koni is more adjustable than tein ss...tein ss may have 16 clicks or whatever it may have but koni yellows don't have clicks..they just turn

have you ever seen a dyno plot of a tein ss coilover? for all i know they can look like the t1r coilovers...they are around the same design as the tein ss and have a 32 way adjustability



notice how the alot of the clicks don't do shit? 6 clicks would be sufficient..also notice how there's practically no low speed dampening? you WANT low speed dampening for cornering and lower high speed dampening so you're car doesn't fly over bumps

you can look at koni's graphs on their site...as well as kyb agx and tokiko illuminas

also, so what if i run non adjustables? i have found no reason to change how the shocks dampen my springs..they are stiff enough...sure if i could afford konis i'd jump on them but i can't

some national winners last year were running revalved bistein shocks...also non adjustable so i guess their setup is worthless too right?

the high rear rates isn't my theory..it's the theory of years of history in racing..i tried my best to describe it when i was talking with clpower..do a search if your hot temper lets you

sure everyone has different views but you have yet to provide me with any evidence on why getting tein ss is the right way to go which you stated in your beginning post

you should do plenty of research but that's just my opinion so who cares right

 

I'm not angried at this topic, why get mad over arguing over the internet? The only thing you never did, is convince me that your theory and your knowledge is actually worth something, and convinced me that listening to you, will win me autocross races. Your plot is worthless, it looks like a graph printed out of excel. I don't use manufactures comparisons as proof of how well a dampener actually preforms. Actually, you have yet to provide any information or evidence that your backing a product, that you actually aren't even running on your vehicle to this day. You are running a product, that I haven't even heard of untill this day. I'm not saying your not a knowledgeable person, but most of the people on this forum either never, or hardly drive their car in the autocross circuit, that being that the tein ss is a good option for a daily driven good ride with the ability to crank it up, if you feel like running through your neighborhood twisties. Thats why its the rite suspension for the cl. Remember that the cl was never designed for a road race car, it was a sport-luxury coupe. You should of bought an integra, or hatchback if your so into roadracing. So, my point is why is your suspension the rite setup, being that your the only one that has that setup on this board?

 

again read my posts i never said i had the right setup...if you didn't notice my main point is that for the price of tein ss there's alot more options out there..i just prefer the koni yellows because they've been proven by real drivers on a race course as well as autox...these guys have devoted race cars and years of experience...i don't see tein ss have this sort of history

that graph was tested using a shock dyno from chris lee who works at koni (so why trust him) because he is happy to compare other shocks and if he sees a good product he will admit so..he has a very high reputation at honda-tech.com ..roadracing/autocross section

i know the cl wasn't made to be a road race car (i have an accord btw but they're sister cars so who cares) but neither was an integra of civic..the fun comes in building the car right? is that not why we are in this thread?

as for suspension theories, here's some reputable sources (you may not think so but experience counts)

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=627108

here is a thread of people sharing their springrates..yes (as expected) it is mixed between front and rear biased rates..everyone has their own theories and what works for them and we are all after the same goal = rotation...so if this is through high spring rates, swaybars, castor, camber, toe, staggered tires you use what works

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=285747
this is a post made by another racer..he compares jdm vs na (north america) setup...na being high rear rates, jdm being high front rates...it gets pretty technical

when looking for a setup to follow you see what wins...here's what some winning cars have

5th gen accord...just one 1st place in fsp class...running 400f 500r rates on ground control with koni shocks

5th gen accord in usstcc won it's second straight 1st place trophy this year in the ustcc championship

------------------------------------------------
Front suspension is H&R coilover Integra Type R shock with a 900 pound spring.

All bushing have been replaced by rod ends.

The lower control arm was cut off and a rod end replaces the inner joint. Outer ball joint is stock

We drilled out the taper hole on the steering tie rod and replaced that with a rod end and adjusted for a better bump steer curve.

THe upper control arm was replaced with one of those red adjustable arms.

In the rear we cut off the forward end of the trailing arm and made a extension to accept a rod end to pivot on the front end of the trailing arm.

The camber control arm we made out of bent tubing and two more rod ends.

The lower control rods we made out of aluminum tubing and two rod ends.

The sway bars are just from Suspension Techniques with Prothane bushings.

Rear shockes are again H&R Integra Type R shocks with special made brackets with 1000 pound springs.

----------------------------------------

koni yellows paired with soft spring rates will give you the same ride as tein ss

all in all i will admit that i overlooked the point that most (if not all) the cl owners will never really push their cars to the limit at any course that turns..but then i have my personal petpeeve of spending $800 on a suspension to get the looks of a lowered car...iunno for $800 i'd want my suspension to work like it's supposed to

but it's your money do what you want with it

and now i'm tired and i might have to edit this post later because i dunno if it makes sense =)

 

Who cares, and why would you make a suspension suggestion, you don't even own a cl. Why sugguest a suspension to some one that owns a car you don't. There are differences in the weight ect, between the cl. Dude, seriously, what is your point. Were talking about the best over all acura cl suspenion here, not about autocross, or about suspensions for the accord. Most of us don't really race our cars, so whats the point. I quit now, your the winner of the internet battle.

 

lol~!! -_- what a long battle

i still don't get the whole point. . . lol
i don't think there is a point to get such crazy suspension. .
just drop enough and have a comfortable ride

be happy

 

Exactly, thats my whole point. What do cl owners care more about.

 

Regardless of what setup anyone has, the most important factor is, the driver! Keep practicing.

If you guys REALLY want, I could get some auto cross junkies in here to help straighten out any concerns/questions/tech info.

 

all i know is that after reading the posts in the last week all on suspension i still dunno shit.. n the more i read stuff like this w/ charts n such i get more confused.. i just gotta find out what kinda springs i should get with my possibly FREE N+R race springs.. (2.2F/2.0R) i know its been asked 348394 times but why not drill me since everytime its with a diff kinda spring.. suggestions for shocks w/ these springs? hope the drop isnt TOO low for me :>

 

You'll need a camber kit $$$

 

ya i know taht already.. if i got H+R sports i wouldnt would i? cause im thinkin maybe ill get those like i originally wanted n not get a camber kit.. or keep these (assuming i get em) n get the kit ;\

 

If you do alot of highway driving I think you should get camber kits. I have a few friends that go through tires within a year of driving, inner edge of tire with no rubber exposing thread!

 

damn u bishes got technical!

 

GC

 

azian214585

You're right on about the suspension stuff. I don't know where the misinformation is coming from about konis not being able to provide soft enough or stiff enough dampening as a tein dampner though, even ots konis.

Though, you have to consider, the biggest focus around here is probably getting the car with a good low ride height adjustment with acceptable dampening to drive around on, nothing absolute...that's why no one cares to hear the technical side.

Off-topic, how do you like your OmniPowers? Right now running 290/490lb springs on a dc5 with mugen dampners, but might be looking to something more aggressive, but not overly aggressive. Omnipowers might be an option even though I'm not too huge on the specific rates they've made public for the dc5 yet. I wanna do something in the 350-400 range, with 600lb rears.

If I buy another car, I'd like to really go aggressive with specific rate Ground Control/ERS and revalved konis.

 

azian214585

You're right on about the suspension stuff. I don't know where the misinformation is coming from about konis not being able to provide soft enough or stiff enough dampening as a tein dampner though, even ots konis.

Though, you have to consider, the biggest focus around here is probably getting the car with a good low ride height adjustment with acceptable dampening to drive around on, nothing absolute...that's why no one cares to hear the technical side.

Off-topic, how do you like your OmniPowers? Right now running 290/490lb springs on a dc5 with mugen dampners, but might be looking to something more aggressive, but not overly aggressive. Omnipowers might be an option even though I'm not too huge on the specific rates they've made public for the dc5 yet. I wanna do something in the 350-400 range, with 600lb rears.

If I buy another car, I'd like to really go aggressive with specific rate Ground Control/ERS and revalved konis.

 

what suspension suggestion did i make? to run koni's with ground control? that's personal preference and seeing how i didn't tell him what rates springs blahblahblah i don't consider it suspension advice..if i told him to run kyb agx with hnr sports it would be advice because everything is off the shelf and you can't customize anything

on the other hand..you suggested tein ss...then said he should run 14k front and 12k rear...i don't see you backing up that statement with any type of experience. Anyone running these rates? how is the tein ss going to handle these rates without getting revalved? are U running these rates? how did you come up with these rates? also, if ride comfort is a big deal, why would any cl owner even THINK about running these rates? these rates are insanely high for any street driven car and to properly dampen these you need aggressive shocks..there goes comfort out the door again

my main point with all the technical stuff was based on you saying that it doesn't make sense to run higher rear rates..i gave you examples of other people's setups as well as setups of championship cars..you can see many of them run higher rear rates..must be for a reason right? some run non-adjustable shocks..personal preference but it works right? that's all the info why i'm running what i'm running..it makes sense to me but i won't get into any more technical stuff

what's the difference between a accord and cl besides weight? the cl was built ON the accord platform from everything from suspension geometry to interior design..they are pretty much sister cars that's why i'm here

it's true i made a mistake about forgeting about comfort. But there's a bunch of other setups i can name that go for less than the tein ss and will ride more smoothly than those coilovers. Since i won't get technical jus think linear rates vs. progressive rates.


personally i love these...for the price i couldn't be happier...here's one of the reasons..there's this civic that i would always fall a few tenths behind during my events..i could never catch him and it was pissing me off lol...but first event with the omnis and nothing else changed on my car..i killed him by 2 seconds so =)

there's a few other teg owners that are running these and they love them too..but being non adjustable they will be stiff no matter where you go

imo seeing you you already have the dampers (i have no info about these though but i'm guessing they are adjustable) and i'm guessing they were pretty pricey..if you want to keep them and are already running coilover sleeves it'll be much cheaper to just swap out springs for new rates..you can get used springs pretty cheap and easily or go with hypercoils (more expensive) or eibach ers

if you're not running sleeves, omni sells their sleeves for $150 (can choose rates)..pretty damn cheap...or you can just get the spring perches from any sleeve maker (skunk, omni, groundcontrol) and run your own specific springs

 

i had -.8 left front and -1.8 right front (my car is weird i know lol) with hnr sports..never ran a camber kit and never had problems...camber isn't a big issue just make sure you get a good allignment and have the shop set toe to ZERO and not just within specs

bad toe + neg camber = killed inside tires

 

But the koni's and gc's are off the shelf also, so whats the point? You can only customize the spring rates, but thats common about any off the shelf brand. Also with your custom setup, would the koni's last, HA. My friend has skunkworks/koni yellow setup in his cl rite now and it rides, and performs like shit. I would take the ss' over that setup any day. Also the koni's couldn't handle the skunkworks mild spring rate, so unless they are revalved, they will blow within a year, with a higher spring rate.

Basically, those rates were sarcasim. I will be soon running those rates on a drift car which I am building, using the hks hypermax D setup. The setup will be running 16kg/mm/14kg/mm. Those rates would never be for a daily driven car such as the cl, duh.

Don't see the theory on it, and never heard of anyone running that setup, seems to be the autocross racer on a budget setup or something. Most of the auto cross guys here drive porsches, lambo's ect. The few import guys, are all running either TEIN R/A or Jic's. But they have fully upgraded suspension's and won't cheap out or cut corners. Their wallets are quite deep.

Accord 94-97

Weight: Sdn&Cpe: 2900 lbs;Wgn: 3100 lbs
Length: Sdn&Cpe: 184"; Wgn: 188"
Wheelbase:107"
Width: 70"
Height: Sdn&Cpe: 55"; Wgn: 56"

Acura cl 97-99
Wheelbase, 106.5"
Overall Length, 190.0"
Overall Width, 70.1"
Overall Height, 54.7"
Curb Weight, lbs. 3009

I doub't it. No sleve/shock setup in that price range will give you the comfort and performance that cl owners are looking for. Many of them ditched their spring/shock setup for the ss's as well as sleve/shock setups. Clpower ditched the setup your ranting and raving about for something else, and would of bought the teins if he started all over. Go and read some more books about how shocks work, and more bench tests. Also, benchtests do me no good, because they cannot replicate exactly how the suspension is handling at the time while racing. So basically they are irrevalant to road racing rite? beacuse roadracing is an unpredicted environment.

 

lol how is it an autocrosser on a budget setup? where does price and springrate come together again? the cost of getting 14kf and 16kr rates costs EXACTLY the same as getting 16kr and 14kf lol...how many porsches and lambos won nationals this year? or even in the past ten years? most importantly how many porsches and lambos are FWD?

i know quite a few peole running that setup for over two years no problems

yes, i want to run 12k and 14k on tein ss because first, they will be able to handle those rates without being revalved. secondly, the higher rate will help shock travel, and not a shortened strut lol

again, linear vs. progressive spring rate. do you know the difference between those two yet?

 

You know what, you win, this conversation is like beating a dead cow, and has gone way off topic. Everyone listen to this guy, he's the most expierenced suspesnsion technician there is. He prolly even has a engineering degree at his ripe old age of 19. Shoots!

 

and what do they have to listen to me for? i've shown winning race setups with higher rear rates and lower fronts..and you still don't believe it?

bringing porsches and lambos into this topic who are running jic and other suspension we aren't even talking about really helps your claim too

how many facts have you shown here? the only information to back up your claims is "because it is how it is" but i guess that's all the proof you need

 

Like I said, beating a dead cow.

 

I'm actually non-adjustable, that's the reason I might change...I have Mugen's street suspension on my car, I'd estimate probably 10% up on DC5-R spring rates and dampening rates. Been auto-xing enough lately that I feel I need something less street biased and aggressive.

OmniPowers are on the list of things to look into, that's why i ask. Though, the DC5 app spring rates are definitely unorthodox from what a lot of people think makes the dc5 work well.

Back on topic:

Baka, are your friends skunk2 spring rates over 550lbs? Cause ots konis can handle that range.

 

cool..well you have my vote for omnis =) ..what class are you running in? sts?

 

I would run STS at SCCA events, yes.

 

have a prokit with 19's..... eating the inside of my tires up.... got an aligment yesterday and they told me my shit was off bigg time and so was the camber... it is all adjusted now... hopefully it iwll stop tearingup my tires!!!

 

Hey I appreciate the struts! What would be the best setting for daily driving on AGX's with h&r or nuespeed sports I have no Idea where to start.