winstrolvtec

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/index.html

This is a few weeks old now and most of us have seen it but I couldn't help thinking that the TL could do some damage in this comparo, especially the 6MT.

For all intensive purposes it's a $50k comparo and we know the RL would have got the spot even had it not been and we know the RL is slightly more luxurious and perhaps refined but the TL is slightly more performance oriented and the 6MT is a beast in comparison.

They gave the CTS a shot for whatever reason by loading the crap out of it to get it over $50k when all the other cars start at around $45k and have very little equipment and packages.

Obviously they should have used the STS to keep it more objective but I do think the CTS can compete there as it is more of mid level than it is an entry or a mixed segment vehicle like the TL. Aside from price they could have easily slotted the TL SH in there.

For what it's worth most of these cars are on their last year or two before a new model intro but I really think the TL deserves more mid level consideration that no one outside Acura community rarely gives it credit for, even if it is only for the SH. Thoughts.

PetesTL

If size is a consideration, yeah, then I think the TL belongs somewhat in that comparo. But in reality, the TL competes against cars such as the ES350 and G37. Buyers shopping a 5 series or E-class honestly wouldn't think twice about a TL unless they intend to "downsize." The TL is a heck of a bargain in the entry-luxury segment but it just doesn't have the goods or the panache to be considered a true luxury car. Honestly, even the Maxima has more goods than the TL in the luxury department.

winstrolvtec

I agree that it's not up to the luxury and refinement standards of the group but it is considerably cheaper and aside from that it competes well in all other phases, especially performance.

The CTS, which I happen to like a lot, doesn't exactly fit completely in there either yet it's there. I think they are both joint segment vehicles. There is reference to the CTS being a 3/5 series' "tweener" or "in between". I just think the TL should get that kind of consideration also. Maybe the difference is the CTS can be considered that through it's entire model trim while the TL probably just the SH model.

graphicguy

What they should have done is thrown in a Hyundai Genesis V8 in this comparo and see how it would have done. Considering it is supposed to compete with most of those in this test, I wonder what MT would have thought of it on absolute terms (particularly given huge price advantage)?

TechnoCat

By that standard, you could put the TL in a convertible shoot-out. Other than not being a convertible, it competes well!

winstrolvtec

^Humorous really but unlike a convertible comparo in your example the TL also happens to be a luxury sedan just like the ones in the comparo, what a coincidence. It is also of similar size (if not bigger in some areas), space, comfort. Maybe this is news to some but it also has 90% of all the available tech and features the others do but standard and it has as big and as powerful an engine as anything in the group and performance that is second to none. I don't know that sounds like apples to apples to me.

Lets not forget the TL-SH at it's core is essentially an RL, perhaps not as well dressed nor as refined but clearly the 4G TL-SH is more of a performance oriented base model RL than it is another version TL.

Maybe what I should have asked, since some are trying to take what I am saying and make it into something more, is if the TL-SH should be considered a "tweener"?

Skywalker23

the TL, even the base model is a hell of a vehicle for what it costs...before i bought it i looked at a 328i, C300 sport, G37 and a Maxima which by the way offers a lot more features and has a more power...but when taking everything into consideration it became aparent that the TL was way off a better choice. In terms of design/standard features/performance/price it comes out on top

cp3117

The only thing the TL would have done in this comparo is secure last spot (especially in the 5AT version. The 6MT having better perfomance than the RL would have placed it probably in the same spot as the RL did or maybe a spot higher.

When your into this category of a luxury car there are a lot more things involved than just performance. The infiniti placed in last spot and its performance numbers where not that far off from the first place 5 series. When you read their review of the RL it appears it lacked badly in luxury, build quality area, etc etc.

The RL is the elite of Acura's luxury and uses better materals etc compared to the TL. This is why IMO i think the TL would have probably done the same as the RL if not worse.

This always seems to be a common problem when Acura's are compared to other brands especially the Tier 1 models (and probably why Acura management has given up on Tier 1). This is of course one way in how they keep the Acura line cheap compared to other luxury brands and in turn give that percieved value.

Overall the TL (especially the 6MT) is a great car but we should stop trying to compare it to other models that it doesnt belong with in order to try and make it look like a better value than it really is.......Its a good value and a great competitor compared to the base entry level models like the base 328, C300, maxima, VW CC etc, but thats about where it ends.

MIKEYDRED

I am tired of you so called Acura fans trashing your brand. there is no way in hell a base Maxima ,CC or C300 can be compared to a fully loaded TL, I agree some of those models have items the TL doesn't posses, but the TL also has items they do not posses. Those other cars have to push up their content in order to sell, Acura will give the buyer enough of what they need and then add on during refresh periods and the TL appeal is greater, maybe to the exception of the C300.

winstrolvtec

I never looked at this way. Thank you so much, I am cancelling my deposit on a fully loaded TL SH 6MT and getting a bone dry stock C300 4Matic for the same price, instead.

cp3117

LOL, No problem I am glad I could finally make you see the light.

On a serious note, (by your comment) did you finally make the leap and purchase a 6MT?

winstrolvtec

^It's just discussion, all in good fun. As far as the new purchase, I'm looking at next week but by the end of the month for sure. I wanted the car months ago but the longer I wait the better the deals get.

docboy

Good for you for waiting. IMHO, absolutely phenomenal deals right now. Keep us posted.

SSFTSX

for FWD car. i think Maxima is the best choice when Design/standard equipment/performance is considered. Maxima have 4 wheel ventilated brakes, heated steering wheel and gives sport package with 19inch option which you cant get on FWD TL.
Sales figures are reflection of it. Consumers are not stupid.
it is selling better than C300, 328s, G37,TL, A4, Hyundai Gensis for 4 door mid $30k sedan.

If it got AWD/7 speed auto/6MT options it will even trounce lexus ES/IS in sales for 4 door sedan. It is lack of options that is hindering it hitting 10k per month mark and this without even putting a luxury badge or DI engines like Lexus on it.


Maxima got high praise from Edmunds for its interior design/fit & finish much better than G35. only let down by tires. with right tires it will out handle FWD TL easily even on 19inches. and still super quiet


it is pretty much confirmed by C&D. with CVT transmission it took just 5.8 sec to 0-60. only 2.6 turns lock to lock.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...ba3dcca91a.pdf

GrigioTL

I personally do not think the TL would place well in that comparison. The TL definitely represents a great value but there are things that TL does not offer (but offered in the competition) that leaves me scratching my head.

More importantly, I think Acura is suffering from a larger brand perception problem. If you look through competitive forums, you will probably notice the Acura brand have become a laughing stock. Plus, the lack of a rear wheel drive system also diminishes the Acura TL's chances as a worthy competitor in any comparison.

Here are few features offered in competitive products from Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti that are not offered in the TL:

Auto-leveling/adaptive front lighting systems
Auto down/up for all four windows
Power/memory steering column
Adaptive cruise control
6 or 7 speed transmission
Rear wheel drive

With the soon to be launched G25, I think the TL may lose more sales to Infiniti. We all know that the IS250 is a higher volume vehicle than the IS350. It's also no secret that the C300 sells more units than the C350. The 328i also outsells the 335i. So I would think the G25 would bring some good add-on sales for the G line.

George Knighton

Although I am very glad I got my TL, I think that your post is pretty much spot-on why the TL is not in the same class.

With the exception of rear wheel drive, of which I am not a fan, I see your point. I learned to race with front drive, and I still feel that for most drivers a front bias car is going to be the safer thing to drive. It's a lot easier to save a situation with a front bias car.

I mean, let's face it: There's only two things to do to get yourself out of trouble with a front drive car. You either put your foot down more and pull your way through...or you lift momentarily to point the nose and then put your foot down again.

Most rear drive bias cars simply cannot do that. Not as safely as a front drive Honda.

But that's a personal preference and I admit that I might be biased because of my racing, which has given me some very clear preferences for certain kinds of cars on the road.

BUT...having said all that....I admit that if the briefings are correct that a revived RL/Legend marque will be bigger than the TL is now, it might be a good idea to have a rear-bias SH-AWD platform.

Considering Acura reliability and technology, I would only add that I think that a 2012 or 2013 Acura TL SH-AWD with the Advance Package probably could compete in the class in the review.

winstrolvtec

I don't believe RWD defines a class all by itself and the TL is behind when it comes to making things available like rain sensing wipers, power steering column, adaptive lighting etc, etc, but that stuff is not standard on any of those models. You pay extra for those features while you really don't pay extra for anything on a TL-SH but the tech package.

Just the fact that those things are available and whether you add them or not costs you more money on those brands. Should Acura's choice to do the opposite to keep cost down make cars like the TL non competitive against very similar and comparable products?

Now I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer to that question but if I was to say yes then I feel like the reason the TL can't compete is because it's too cost effective. It makes sense to say no also because of things like extra refinement, material quality, V8 and other options not available on the TL. On the other hand if I loaded those other cars up as best and as equal as possible compared to the SH you are talking about a substantial amount of money more, between $15k-$20k and I am amazed at how little they have over the TL at that point and it goes beyond just features.

If I then said let me see what I can get in those brands for the cost of a TL, you would be lucky to get those other cars to start where a TL-SH ends. If we group in pricing to form a comparison as a magazine would, we have the TL-SH up against the 528i, 3.2 FWD A6, E350, M35, GS 350, STS V6 and even a base RL with not a single thing added to any of them, in their cheapest and most basic form cause they already cost more. At the very least, the TL-SH would get some consideration up against those mid level vehicles then and therefore could be called a tweener or a joint segment vehicle.

GrigioTL

Not necessarily true. Acura's strategy of limiting options is great but does not necessarily mean it costs a lot less than a comparable equipped competitive vehcile.

For example a 2010 Infiniti G37x with technology, premium, sport, navigation and interior accents package (as loaded as you can get it) has an MSRP of $43,715. On the other hand, a 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD with Technology package has an MSRP of $43,195.

The infiniti configured above comes with more features than a TL SH-AWD Tech like rain sensing wipers, intelligent cruise control, power/memory steering column, auto one touch up/down for all windows (standard feature). Plus, the G37s are generally leasing for less than a TL.

The Lexus IS350 with luxury value package and navigation has an MSRP of $41,280. Equipped at that price you get rain-sensing wipers, power/memory steering column, electrochromic mirrors, adaptive front lighting system, auto one touch up/down for all windows (standard feature).

The 3G was probably a much better value compared to its competitive at the time. I'm afraid that the 4G may have lost its value proposition!

SSFTSX

ur basicallly saying that TL-SH-AWD is value which it is not. i dont think its sales are more than 300 per month. IS/GS are smaller vehicle but u have
A6 whose sales are 600 to 700 per month. A6 3.0T prestige can be for $55K.

A6 is longer wheel base and 200lbs heavier vehicle for more luxurios drive.
It gives u standard 6speed Auto (better freeway economy, performance), 4 wheel ventilated brakes, blind spot monitoring, 3G MMI (3D topography in navigation with enhanced graphics), head protection airbags for rear occupants, adoptive lights with LED, folding exterior mirrors, mutli level heating with 12 way adjustments, LED interior lighting, puddle lighting with fibre optic technology, larger fuel tank for longer driving.


I dont know TL can be even compared. it is like comparing 14k to 22k Gold.


There is sport option with lower firmer suspension for A6 but why some one will chose this one for luxury car. TL dont give u that option. u either chose softer ride of FWD or firmer of AWD. u cant have AWD drive with luxurious ride.

winstrolvtec

I think you guys are missing my point. The size of the TL alone represents a great value maybe not to everyone but it is still a reality. There is nothing wrong with any of the entry vehicles and the way they compare to a TL but if I am shopping within any other brand and the entry car is too small for me and I don't find them comfortable, I have to buy their more expensive mid level and at a price anywhere near the TL-SH it is for their base model with nothing added and I would much rather have a TL-SH.

Those entry cars include the IS, 3, C, G, and A4. Now I have to look at whatever else they offer that is bigger and you are looking at cars like the GS, 5, E, M, and A6. You can get these cars equipped the same way as you would their entry and for the most part with the same engine and tranny and similar level of performance but you have to pay at least a $10k premium for it. Think about it this way, what if one is not so concerned about mid level refinement but would like the size, space, and comfort of the mid but for entry price?

That's why cars like the CTS, TL SH and even Genesis are gems, IMO. There are other cars at entry level and pricing that offer more of the size one might be looking for but outside of these three non other offer the performance capabilities and platform too.

To go even further, AWD and 6MT in a luxury segment is hard to come buy making an even bigger case for the TL SH 6MT. Something in mid level size with a combination of those two key components leaves one with two choices, the BMW 5 Series or the TL SH-AWD 6MT. To get the 5 well equipped to the level of TL you are talking about $20k+ and over $300 a month more in leasing and $400 in financing.

The issue here is not really about money but it's about principle with regards to the money charged. For what I pay for a TLS and what I will be paying on a 10' SH 6MT, which will actually be less monthly, and on a no money down finance I could have leased the 5 or any other well equipped mid level for relatively the same cost. The issue I have with that is resale, I am not getting more return on that dollar for having spent more. As a matter or fact I will be pulling out $7k in equity in my TLS. So not only would a BMW 5 or something similar run me slightly more every month just to lease, I would have lost out on $7k too. So it was $7k more expensive plus whatever the difference in monthly payment would have been because their resale sucks.

Most of those cars, particularly the Germans and the 5 series don't have the same level of reliability that Honda/Acura has. They don't represent a level of safety and crash testing that Acura and the TL does. That is not to say they are worse but for the money they should be better. The TL has 90% of the available features and options and is equal if not better in the performance categories, but mostly the 6MT. For the type of customer I am that is very appealing but not everyone wants, needs and likes what I do.

Because this stuff gets dragged out and there are many different opinions and everyone has their say in what defines a class, I really don't care how it fits in and if it really is a true competitor or not. I am sold on one and to me it competes cause BMW lost a 5 series sale and maybe considering that they could say the same thing.

SSFTSX

BMW 535 has 61 dba of NVH and TL-SH-AWD is 69 dba. These are not even in same segment so why even compare?. BMW has much better mid range performance and fuel economy, larger boot etc.
u need larger car but not need larger boot? what purpose is of large car. to have isolated and luxurios ride with large internal and boot capacity with increase automation. I dont see any other reason for buying larger size car. or it is just for show.

how many 6MT/AWD BMW 5 series are there?. ur creating artificial market to justify TL value.
In luxury car segement. increase automation is the way to go. MB E series is now the leader. no one want to manual shift 195inch size car let alone put AWD in it and make it firmer ride. and ride of car is directly proportional to length of wheel base, type of tires, suspension and seats. I am not sure TL-SH-AWD is that more comfortable than Maxima/A4/MB C series. infact A4 has longer wheel base than TL and others are practically equal in wheel base with much larger boot capacity and split fold rear seats. this is called value of money.
Simply put it. for thos who want sporty performance they can get BMW 3/A4 with sport/ S line package or go all the way with M3/S4. Any thing larger than this size is in pure premium luxury league where MB E/BMW 5 shines but not AWD sport/6MT sport suspension models. even A6 with AWD is nich market.
it seems ur artificially creating a market segment that fits TL larger size (you always overlook that it is very inefficient interior and boot capacity)

look at Driver comfort , interior fit/finish, ride. this thing defines luxury car segment and this time is from C&D. where sporty cars used to win but not in this segement where pure luxury is the defining moment not sporty handling.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...fea8b89a83.pdf

let TL managed this one. .


V6 has to create V8 performance for rapid merging and passing and this very essential for large size car controllability and sterring should be extremely light for parking.

winstrolvtec

The difference between you and myself is I actually came to this conclusion by shopping and pricing these cars in person. A friend of mine also has a 535xi in 6AT so that helps. AWD and 6MT may be a very small percentage of luxury buyers but I am one of them so this works for me. I don't expect the same for everyone, I just like to post about it. I don't know how you can say no one wants to drive larger car with a 6MT when clearly there is enough market that they created cars for it and therefore it's not an artificial market, just a small one.

The BMW may have a lower DBA but that doesn't define an automotive segment, maybe the level of sound proofing within the segment but that's about it. The 5 in AWD also rides on a higher profile with more tire and deep treads. The TL SH is on 18's with harder Michelins. The SH has the most aggressive stock exhaust note of any Acura that I have ever heard, that plays into it. Worst case scenario I can still turn up the top rated stereo system in the auto industry if DBA is a concern, which happens to be available on the TL, not the 5.

As for the size, you may not find any reason to buy a bigger car in the entry class but you may not be as big a person as some. You may not commute as long. Some people have families with kids and stuff. You may like to move your driver position for passengers but that is only uncomfortable for both. I have been in and been driven in the back seats of almost every entry model luxury sedan and because I was so freakin uncomfortable I swore I would not do that to anyone else, if I could avoid it. Not just the back but also in the front. I just felt like I was too big and tall for those cars.

I mean do you expect these brands to no longer produce mid and full sized cars? You are not making any sense. If it is still a very capable sports sedan, which it is, then why not? Might as well get "more" car for around the same money.

You should not concern yourself with all these technicalities, at the end of the day you still you have to compare the products in real life and in real driving situations and how they are designed around and operate around their wheelbases and external dimensions, not drawing assumptions and conclusions from what's on paper. You have to consider other things like price, reliability, safety and resale, too. You know an overall buying decision.

I find the TL ride to be less aggressive than the 5 but just as capable because of it's wider track and torque vectoring. The 5 is very raw but also very well dampened so it doesn't bother you but you do feel everything. The TL has a better balanced ride IMO.

That is an exact description of what the TL-SH is very good at. Electric steering and 305HP, it's very capable (especially in 6MT) and feels very refined. I highly recommend it.

SSFTSX

so ur just one person who made decision that because ur going to buy large AWD/6MT car so it is good value for rest.
It is too early too say if there is large market of 6MT/AWD full size car with midsize interior dimenion. second ur constantly bring BMW which is 2003 design and likely to be changed in 6 month time. so it is sensible to wait for newer versions of real luxury cars. there is great chance of 535D. so u will get nearly twice the fuel economy of TL-SH-AWD. Car is long term investment no one should invest in outdated and not so luxury $45k car.
both A6/BMW despite being in there last years of life gives u more value of money, more refinement, more technology from navigation to engines to transmission with better fuel economy/performance. offcourse larger value of car. the faster its depreciation. BMW isnt particularly successful in selling AWD cars anyway.
u havent answered how big and comfortable is TL-SH-AWD and why do u think it will have same resale value advantage against newer competition.

George Knighton

Acura are not really marketing the car very well, IMHO.

Most of the people whom I personally know who bought a 6-6 bought it because they were already Honda-Acura owners who were keeping up with the developments and the availability of the model.

The car is capable of quite a lot more than what the marketing indicates.

Some of the video that was taken at VIR should be used in the marketing somehow. Seeing a 4,000# sedan suddenly push itself through Oak Tree as fast as Kleinubing or Cunningham would go through it is really very impressive.

And watching (or driving) these huge cars through the Uphill Esses is just incredible. If you concentrated on the feel instead of the visuals, you'd almost swear you were in an STi or ITR instead of a huge sedan.

If they want to get more people like us involved, people who might be driving other marques at the moment, they need to find a way to incorporate this kind of marketing opportunity.

At the moment, I think that most 6-6 owners are coming to the TL SH-AWD from already having a Honda or Acura.

Pete2010

Clearly you have not been inside a 09/10 TL and a 5 series BMW. The interior of a 09/10 TL I think is slightly larger than the 5 series. It's freaking huge inside. I had 4 full size (6 foot tall) guys in my car and everyone had plenty of legroom.
If the 535D comes out it's going to probably be at least 60K comparably equipped as the TL-SHAWD, and the BMW isn't going to have AWD.
Your entire argument is lost by the fact you think a car is a long term investment. It is an investment in a depreciating asset. I try to have my long term investments get a 5-10% gain, not a 10-20% loss. People don't buy these cars for investments, they buy them to drive their kids to soccer practice.
BMW/Audi are not more value for the money, if they were they'd sell for 40-40k equipped like the Acura. They don't, they sell for 50-60k.
Also, define "Refinement", I've seen your other posts about this, and it only seems to be the DBA or something... what the hell does that have to do with refinement? I think you heard that word in a Lexus commercial or saw it in a car magazine and thought it sounded good.
Depreciation has nothing to do with the value of an item...
Ferrari's don't depreciate that much of a % compared to their price. That's why smart hedge fund managers buy them, they can afford them, they're fast, and hold their value extremely well for an auto.
This question wasn't to me, but I'll answer my thoughts. Go and sit in a new TL, it's huge, much larger than the 3G was, and about the same if not a little bit bigger than the 5 Series. The interior of the 2010 SHAWD makes my old 07 TL-S look like crap. It's unbelievably comfortable, my recent 12 hour drive proved that. And it's comfortable without being soft like a Lexus. I feel like I'm connected to the road at all times. It will have an extremely competitive resale value for one reason that BMW/Audi can't compete with. RELIABILITY. Go read the BMW forums, constant issues with fuel pumps, over heating, crap like that. I wanted to get a 1yr old 335xi, but after reading about the reliability issues, i got the TL.

docboy

Do you know if these videos are posted online?

SSFTSX

Slight larger than BMW 5?. not sure. boot of BMW 5 is definitely larger.
It will be worth $60K from performance, NVH, design, interior space, wheel base, customization, fuel economy etc. It is extremely impressive looking car.
Car is definitely long term investment. u dont replace it often.
those 30 to 40k are FWD TL not TL-SH-AWD. Audi/BMW i am sure sell more AWD in $40k range than Acura.
it has in quantity of dollar measurement not percentage.
so does BMW 5/MB E/Audi A6. they are far more comfortable, longer wheel base, superior midrange performance.
A6 dont even have any issues with engine. It is supercharged DI not turbo. better than V8 performance. there is no interior that match it.
Just navigation alone is worth it. front & rear one touch windowns, split rear seats for cargo, 13 speaker music system, rear seat belt pretensioner,rear side aribags, heated steering wheel, power lift gate, exclusive color options.
All around vented brakes. In Acura u have to change brakes twice often as Audi. Initial reports are indicating A6 3.0T are not losing value. so better value of money. and there is no standard maintiance plan to buy.

winstrolvtec

No, it may not be but if you shop the entry class and it's too small, you need a bigger car you have to go mid level, there is no other choice and that can get very expensive compared to the TL SH and it doesn't matter if it's a 5AT or 6MT either. In price, most mid levels start where the SH ends. That saves me a lot of money not having to go after what you guys call a true mid level. If this car didn't implement the SH and grow in size I would have had to buy something else and spend a lot of money for something I don't feel is worth it or even need. The little extra refinement and features is not all that impressive in comparison anyway.

The market needed a real performance oriented mid level sized car at entry pricing like the Genesis, CTS and TL-SH. Sure if you want more size you can always get a LaCrosse, an ES, the FWD TL, or even the Maxima and CC but none of those have the performance and platform capabilities that the SH does, especially the 6MT.

This is true, I even mentioned that in the first post. I am not trying to take away from any of those cars or make the TL out to better than it is. I just think it should get mid level consideration and can compete there. I am not saying it is exactly up to the class' standards. I buy my cars for a short term, 2-3 years so I don't need to take a big depreciation hit. If I was to keep this kind of car for several years then I might consider waiting for the new 5 series to come out.

You might find value in them, I don't. That doesn't mean I won't buy one or don't like them it's just because of what Acura does I don't see any value in those other cars. If Acura didn't offer so much for so little IMO, I might own or look for a more expensive mid level but I am thankful that they do. As Pete said, reliability and resale value go hand and hand. That is why cars that are not the most reliable don't have the best resale values and vice versa.

Real value doesn't depreciate fast because the cost of the car is in the actual car and not dollar inflation from import taxes, foreign labor cost and exchange rates. Otherwise good buying value is good selling value so there's very high retention.

The TL has a spacious interior not just for the front but also in the back. Too many brands disregard the rear passengers and space. I never have to move my seat to accommodate anyone, that leaves a very good impression if you have to transport clients, friends and family. I rarely put anyone back there, I just like to have that in a car. It has big cushy seats and a well balanced ride. It's also one of the widest sedans on the market, you cannot adjust for width. I can tell you anything I want to but I want to enlighten, not mislead so if you want to really know how big and comfortable a TL or TL SH is, you should go check one out.

SSFTSX

It is not little extra refinement but alot more in technology (3D topograhpy, blind spot monitoring, AFS lighting with 15degree turns,better brakes, protection, more choice in colors/wheels/sport suspension). As i said it is whole host of things that make luxury experiance and it is worth $10k more not to mention interior quality. superior across the board performance.

And ur definitely mistaken. Best resale for Luxury car in 2010 both for ALG and KBB is A5 and best full size car is Nissan Maxima. Acura on average has better reasale value but not single individual ones.
http://www.autoremarketing.com/ar/ne....html?id=10516


Market didnot neet it. there sales are less than FWD Nissan Maxima/Lexus IS/ES. It is lack of 6MT/AWD/7 speed auto that is preventing Maxima from Top.


ur trying to put TL where RL finished next to bottom. It does not belong to that league.




Those reliability is old issue. MB had problem when it mixed with chrysle but now MB E is on top in class on $55k bracket but still no one needs MT combine with MT. It is just an abscure segment.
new MB E/A6 will retain much higher resale value than Acura. and same will be true for new BMW 5/A6 coming up. there is no point in investing TL-SH-AWD.
u never quantify that spaciousness in rear. for me it look same as most of 190inch class.

winstrolvtec

First off, no one wants to see pictures of that crap ass car and ugly color, you are not bringing any more value to what you are saying by posting pictures. I am not saying they don't do some things better but it comes with a price, it's not free or included and it's a lot more money than many feel is worth it. $10k more to equip it to a TL is not enough, you are talking about $15k with the way they discount and that does not include any fancy or real high tech stuff either, just what the TL has and some other minor but welcome features. Next years model will grow in price too, probably around the $60k range.

It is not really so much about the refinement, the A6 has plenty of cheap spots like the seat base and center stack. The MT link at the top for the comparo with the pics should give one a good idea of what I am talking about. It goes beyond the A6 too. You cannot underestimate the TL SH in performance as you have, especially the 6MT. It is as competitive and as capable as anything in the comparo, if not better. I have no problem posting and discussing all day but you need to be more fair and not so overly one sided.

No one said anything about being the best in resale. It is among the best while being a great value in the first place. It's the combination. I am trading in my TLS and it has retained 62% of it's value from purchased price in spite of a new model introduction and that is only trade in. I experienced the same thing with my 04, in fact it was the 3G TL that put Acura on the map for resale value.

The A5 has not even hit the 3 year production mark nor has it faced a new model introduction and the A6 will continue to suffer as soon as the next one comes out, right now for 3 years it's only 43% of it's MSRP on a 3.2 equipped to the same level of the current TL. The 535xi sedan in only two model years old and is at 50% resale in dealer trade books equipped to the level of the TL. This is not very good and base models do better than higher ones and the more options and packages, the less the return.

The A5 is only at 70% for 2 years of production, that's good but it's not great. The 3G TLS had the same at two years, I know I followed it for an entire year. I will put money on it's 3 year being 55%, only average. With everything included in the TL and Acura's models you know you will get a return on that stuff, with most other brands where you have to check a box and add packages and options you might as well flush it down the toilet because they can't possibly factor in a return value for every package and option added on some vs others.

But they have the tranny so they should use it and production on this model is very limited anyway. They don't expect to sell many. But I find it funny because you say the market did not need it but then suggest if the Maxima did this then they would be at the top.???

Good to have an opinion and even if so it then offers a lot more for the money than the league you think it is supposed to be in. For the record Acura positions it in between and that's all I am trying to say.

While they are improving for the 3-5 year ownership period, anything longer than that they still crap out and that's not so much the problem as it is the maintenance costs. They are so much higher than Japanese, especially older models. Until the resale catches up with the reliability there is still something to be said for that.

Maybe, maybe not. All we have to go off of is what is right now and in the past and if that's the case it doesn't look good for the A6 and E. It is your opinion and decision not to invest in a TL SH but the 3G worked out well for me twice and a lot of people. I feel that there is no point in investing in excessive so called Tier 1 type autos when there is nothing wrong with a $20k+ less TL. They are only cars, primarily just a means for transportation. Let's not make more out of owning one over another when it's practically the same thing.

Right, it looks the same but please go do yourself a favor and save everyone and myself the trouble. No one needs to quantify anything if you did your comparisons out in the real world on the real cars. You can add for this, factor for that, base off of another thing but the bottom-line is you need to compare actual products to get a final and fair assessment.

George Knighton

No. If you know VIR you will spot the track on many of the still photos.

Maybe we should just go make our own VIR videos. :-)

Pete2010

Why? Because w/ an MSRP of 60k, after 3 years it will sell for 40k which is more than the 30k a 40k MSRP 4G TL AWD will sell for after 3 years. Just because 40k is more than 30k, You lost 20k on your "investment", I only lost 10k. You mentioned that above when you said:
Cars like this are NOT investments...seriously, stop saying that. All your credibility goes away when you say that. I totally agree that a 535xi is nicer, better, more "refined" (whatever the hell that means), than a TL-SHAWD... but I got my TL for 41k. That BMW would have cost me 60k. Is the BMW worth $19,000 more? Personally, I don't think so. I didn't buy the TL because it was the most car that I could buy... I bought it because it's one of the best equipped in this price range. An unbelievable value for the money. That's the key term VALUE. I challenge you to find a car for 40k that is as powerful (300hp v6 w/ 6MT option), with all wheel drive, and fully loaded with keyless entry, heated seats, Navigation and iPod integration, with all the bullet proof reliability of a Honda. You can't do it.... Infiniti? Please, Audi, BMW? Not even close... There is only one of that car... and Acura TL-SHAWD.

SSFTSX

$10K extra includes things that are simply not available in TL-SH-AWD. like 6speed Auto, DI engine, extra refinement, blind spot monitoring, more robust 3G MMI, 13 speakers music system, NVIDIA powered navigation system, LED lights, AFS, more protection for rear passengers, larger boot size, rear vented brakes, rear parking aid etc. That extra $10K is not free just for brand name. It gives superior performanc of supercharged engine. ur still not getting this point. And most of systems are now in advance package of ZDX which cost $56K.
and next generation $60K A6 will be loaded with tech/refinement/power delivery that Acura will be hopeless against it.
And if u put TL in the same segment what will MT say about it?. It will be whole pages of cheap materials. ur trying to upgrade something which no Magazine is dare to do it.


I agree TL 3G was good against competion in 2004-2008 period. but thing has changed from 2009. u always compare against competition in resale value.
Current A6 is 2003 design. so it is pretty dated. anything living so long in design will depreciate faster no matter how much u upgrade it. same is true of 5 series. i dont put that much stock on BMW as there interiors are let down.
A5 untill recently was in $45-55K range. so it alot expensive than $35K FWD TL. just now under $40k models are rolling.


Because Maxima has strong design. It will attract customers from IS-AWD/A4 AWD. TL is not much in its competition.

It does not offer more. see ZDX tech example.


AWD Audis are selling alot more than AWD TL.


3G is thing of the past. Honda is not going to gain that glory again. It is practically finished. Competition has left behind in design/tech/performance/refinement. there is reason RL stand last despit having SH-AWD/3.7L engine.



Right, it looks the same but please go do yourself a favor and save everyone and myself the trouble. No one needs to quantify anything if you did your comparisons out in the real world on the real cars. You can add for this, factor for that, base off of another thing but the bottom-line is you need to compare actual products to get a final and fair assessment.[/QUOTE]

Pete2010

Please tell me how you load a car with "refinement"?

If all these cars, MB/BMW/Audi are so much more "refined" and depreciate less, or whatever your other arguments are...why are you driving a TSX? Why didn't you buy a 3-Series, or A4?

Rugel

cause he can't afford one.......

winstrolvtec

That is not $15k worth of more stuff, sorry. You don't get it, suppose I don't want to pay for extra stuff, it still costs more money. For what you get the TL SH and it's price you get nothing in a another brands base mid level and it costs more money. You also don't get that while the Euro imports may cost more because they have more stuff, the extra stuff maybe only costs about $5k but the other $10k is to cover import taxes, foreign labor costs, and the exchnange rate, so it is not actually $15k worth of stuff.

The TL has industry leading stereo and navi systems, the A6 is dated. The TL may not have a 6AT yet but it does have a 6MT. Where is the 6MT on the A6? I thought it was for enthusiasts. It also does not have better rear passenger protection when it doesn't come with standard rear airbags, the TL does. A supercharged engine does not mean more performance if a natural can do the same. Acura matches that with a natural aspired engine and it is more reliable than forced induction.

Those things don't cost $56k, the ZDX costs $56k because it's an SUV crossover type vehicle built on the MDX platform, not a sedan. Niche SUV crossovers cost money. If Audi was to biuld one it would cost $65k equally equipped like the X6.


I don't care what magazines says, their job one way or another is to sell cars. You have eyes and a brain, too. Look at any of the pics in the link up top the TL pics in this link below. Compare the TL seat base and center stack to the A6 and the other models. Everyone cheaps out today to one extent or another and the TL has a very nice interior in comparison. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...erior_photo_26

You are right it's even better in SH than it was in 04-08 and it's expanded it's market and level of competition too. It is also as or more affordable with leaseing, interest rates and incentives despite the higher pricetag.

Acura sells more than Audi in the states period.

Actually the RL was not last, the Infiniti M was. Ask people if they would rather have a TL SH over an RL, I know I would even if they gave it to me for the same price. The TL SH just has a much higher level of performance and capability despite being the same drivetrain.

SSFTSX

It is not $15K difference but $13K difference at most. and 18inch rims on premium plus package is not the same as 18inch on prestige package. It is all about differentiaition.
sorry. TL dont have 3D topography in maps. so how it is leading?. it dont have remote central controller.
6MT is irrelveant for luxyr segment. where u got information that TL matches supercharged engine?. perhaps ur comparing two different magazine test.
ZDX cost $56K because it has 6AT/Advance tech package and slightly better interior. not because it is something diffrent than rest of Acuras on platform. A6 has different platform length than A4. Even A4/Q5 exceeds wheel base of ZDX. nich SUV dont cost more if they share platforms. X6 is turbo charged and built on unique AWD system for BMW. Audi share AWD systems.



i have looked on it. it is ur single person opinion. not shared by any expert.

it also consumes more fuel and lack performace of nimble 3G.
3.0T A6 produce V8 performance with V6 fuel economy. this is called progress.
u simpy cant compare refinement of DI/Supercharged combination.







Subtact FWD TL/TSX and Audi sells more AWD.


It is practically last. when u look at criterias that define luxury.
having SH-AWD was bonus.

winstrolvtec

It's $15k with the difference in available deals and actual selling prices not just MSRP. Real world costs. I don't care what the rims are or how they differ. The car can have all the differentiation that it wants. The A6 is a great car also but it's not a great value. Look at what you can get in the TL SH and for under $40k. You cannot find that anywhere else.

In functionality and resolution. Your so called experts love the TL navi, it's no secret. A 6MT is for real luxury enthusiasts not those who pretend. Do you even know how to drive one? Acura's 6MT is amongst the best in the business and says the many so called experts. The TL 6MT has put up better numbers than the A6 even if it is two different magazines. Also, show me a magazine that tested them together and has the TL or A6 being faster. The A6 is rated at 300, the TL at 305. HP is a constant of torque. It's all about HP to weight and the TL in 6MT makes more power not just in the engine but also to the ground and it's over 250 lbs lighter.

That doesn't make sense it's a different car and build. They want MDX type money plus the advance package cost and that is fine because it's the same build as the MDX and offers that type of utility. It's not built from the TL. If the advance package goes in the TL it will still cost under $50k, and you can buy one between $44-$46k. That is a great value and still cheaper with more reliability, safety, resale and performance compared to the mid levels. A few inches more of wheelbase does not justify tens of thousands of dollars, plus it's what you build around it that counts not what or how long it is. Acura's use a wider track on a shorter wheelbase, it's different engineering not better or worse.

You don't need to be an expert to figure that out. What an expert says is still also an opinion, no more.

The SH is much more capable than the 3G TLS, trust me I have it. If it wasn't I wouldn't get a 4G. Since the 3.7 has more power than the 3.0T it's also V8 performance with V6 economy. DI does not create for more refinement, it helps but it still depends on specs and engine build of which Honda is excellent at. FI engines have gotten very refined but they are no more reliable and never will be if they can't make that power naturally and out of the parts, engine specs and tolerances they already use.

Audi does pretty bad in the states anyway. How long has Acura had SH AWD on either sedan and how long have they marketed it? How about Audi? Oh OK. Are you even sure they sell more AWD? I mean the RL is only AWD, the RDX for 3 years was only AWD and only the 10' comes in FWD and they don't sell many. The MDX is only AWD. Now the TL is available in AWD too and the new ZDX model also. Only 3 Acura come in FWD. Audi has more FWD cars available. Acura sold over 23k more units than Audi in 09, so I think you are mistaken, Acura clearly sells more AWD.

Ultimate Luxury or luxury alone are not the only things that sell cars, you should know this you have a TSX.

SSFTSX

I agree there are more deal on TL than A6 but if u dont need all the extra stuff. u can get Premium plus. since TL lacks AFS/LED/blind spot.


better numbers because it is lighter car and tranmission for performance. A6 is more luxury. so no 6MT/7speed DSG. but end result is not bad for such heavy car. 45-65 mph timings and 0-120mph timings A6 will always beat TL. A6 give u choice of sport suspension with lower ride height.
It all depends on intended use. A6 is more impressive looking with more road presence.



ur making stuff. adding 6AT/Advance package and slightly upscale interior. TL will goes above $50K. so the difference with Audi will be about $5K. and u still wont get 3D navigation system or refinement of DI/Supercharged engine. So which one is better value?
This reliability/safety/resale are pure nonsense in 2010. this the only things left for Acura enthusiast to harp about. not looking that things have changed.

expert tests car for living under same conditions. there is test of A6 in same MT where it went to 0-100mph under 14 seconds. So it all about context.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/specs.html


more power? remember experts are saying it is about power delivery with refinement. RL is at bottom of heap. ( and that car has active noise cancellation with flush windows). TL has simply no place in that segment.

Acura sold 30K TSX alone. and add to that atleast 30k FWD TL. Audi is far ahead in AWD sale ratio. why misrepresent figures now?. I have yet to see a used A4 B8 in FWD in used car lot but i can find tons of FWD TL in used car lot. so who is selling those FWD cars?


when i am looking at $50k 195inch car. I am looking at luxury, capacity with latest tech along with certain level of customization. This is suppose to measure things in this segment.

winstrolvtec

The advance package is $6k, lets say at MMC the TL SH is $1k more for updated interior, 6AT and advance tech. That is $50,195. You can get it for $45k on discounts. Still a very good value. The new A6 will be over $60k with a similar level of equipment, it will probably still have a little more than the TL but you are still talking about a $10k-$15k difference but until they come out with it we wont really know.

It's not that I don't need the stuff but Audi does not offer anything that appeals to me that I can get for under $40k like the TL SH does. I cannot get the base A6 for that much or any base mid level and the A4 and entry class is too small. Even if I spent a few thousand more it’s not worth it, you get nothing. Compare a $45k FWD base 3.2 A6 to the $43k TL SH tech. IMO there is no reason to get that A6 or any other base stock mid level. Great cars but not for me. The TL is a better package for the money and it's the same size. It can compete and was designed to fit in the base model mid level class and as you can see it does a very good job.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test Very impressive for a big car with a naturally inspired engine.

Yep 5 more HP with less weight and less power loss with 6MT. Yes I agree, maybe not as far as total refinement and luxury but it's not too far away and has the performance, size, and comfort to match any of those other cars with the price of an entry level. That's a great value, I don't care how you want to slice it.

Acura sold 28k TSX units, they sold 33k total TL's. At least 10k TL's were AWD and maybe more but Acura sold 23k units more than Audi. So 28k + 23k = 51k total FWD units but minus 23k units because Acura sold more and it's 28k + about 2k FWD RDX units and the total is roughly 30k FWD units. I don't know Audi's percentages but if they did not sell 30k FWD units between the A4, A6, and A3 I would be a little surprised. If they didn't they are not far behind and they offer AWD on every model unlike the TSX.

I like to have the same level or more of size, space, comfort and performance with a very similar level of luxury. If I give up a little luxury and few features here and there, it's no big deal. I gain in value, resale, reliability, and safety plus it's one of the smartest automotive financial decision because of the value, discounts and savings combined with the strong resale. That gives me more money to invest elsewhere, not into depreciating assets.