RealWing

Drove my MDX on Jan 8th and it was running fine when I shut it off at a hotel in Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
Overnight it was -26C (-15F)and windy
Next AM it would not start - starter motor would not turn and engine would not rotate (battery is < 2 years old)
Got a boost - nothing moved (solenoid click but no rotation)
Got a boost from a tow truck - nothing moved but got some smoke from starter
Towed to a local Honda dealer
They said it needed a new starter and got it running
Immediately on starting there was VERY loud knocking noises from the engine. Sounded like it was coming apart.
Dealer got the oil pan off and lots of metal bits in the pan and heavy scoring on #5 cylinder wall.
I was 600KM from home and 200Km to closest Acura dealer
Only 124,000 Km on the vehicle. Oil & filter last changed at 116,877 KM on Oct 24th and I had oil analyzed and the oil was fine and absolutely no abnormal wear was present.
A used 3.7L engine was installed by the Honda dealer to get me back on the road. Got the car back on Jan 21st. The engine was later disassembled and the #5 piston had a big chunk broken off of it.
The reason for the failure is not 100% clear at this time.
I posted at MDXers.org and another MDX owner in Wisconsin had the exact same failure under the exact same cold conditions on the exact same cylinder on Jan 7th. Their #5 piston has a chunk broken as well. Because I'm new here, I cant post photos but they can be seen at MDXers.org

Has anyone seen or heard of a failure like this?
Any theories on the root cause of the failure?

RealWing

My MDX is out of warranty and I have contacted Acura Customer Relations (Honda Canada) for "Goodwill Consideration". They have made a couple of offers I rejected their first offer) , which I'm currently considering.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

real wing, the J series engines have a problem with cylinder #5 spark plug. It LOVES to eject.

im assuming that's what happened to yours. it ejected, but instead of flying out and hitting the hood, im thinking some small pieces of metal got sucked into your engine, DESTROYING it.



please google; "MDX spark plug #5" "J35 spark plug #5 eject"

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

with your new engine, I would check spark plug #5 often

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

also, host photos at a photo sharing site, like photobucket.
then copy img url and paste img url here

RealWing

That was the first thing I had the dealer check. The spark plug was tight and undamaged.

RealWing

Forgot to mention that the spark plug was also OK in the Wisconsin failure.

RealWing

Other possibility was a broken valve, but the valves on that Cyl are all intact - but all are bent from munching the chunk of Aluminum cast piston.
Many unanswerable questions:
1. It is very difficult to understand how the cold weather conditions factored into both failures.
2. Did the cold cause the fracture - but only after it was shutdown the night before?
3. Is the cold just a coincidence?
4. Did both starters fail or freeze up causing the no rotation start or was the engine seized at that point??
5. Was the piston fracture the first thing that happened or did a ring break first, jamb into the cylinder wall on the down-stroke and then cause the piston to fracture?
Jim


______________________
2009 Acura MDX
1970 Plymouth Superbird 440-6bbl
1969 Barracuda fastback 340S
1969 Barracuda convertible 318 (conversion to a 6.1L Hemi i/p)
2006 BMW K1200LT

RealWing

IMG_1251 text_zpslt6rd19x.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

RealWing

Fracture surface on piston after removal. The fracture extended to below the 2nd ring and when it failed, it broke the 2nd ring, 1st ring and the chunk of piston.


Piston 1_zpsel0c2ib5.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

RealWing

This is a photo of the fracture surface after removal of the rings and cleaning at the fracture.
Piston 1_zpsel0c2ib5.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

RealWing

oops. Posted the wrong photo in last post
Piston fracture cleaned_zpsziymmokm.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

RealWing

This is a photo of the # 5 piston that failed on a 2009 MDX in Wisconsin on Jan 7th under the exact same conditions as my failure. This engine has a lot more miles than mine.
Photo 8_zpswp6acajd.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

holy hell!

Majofo

Looks like starvation.. cold seizure. Those temps.. if you were running a 5w20.. rings seized on the downstroke, disintegrated your piston.

Majofo

Temps several degrees below freezing.. if you're not on at least 0wX.. engine warmer. If it's way below freezing.. engine warmer regardless.

Majofo

Also.. the smoke from the starter was probably tell-tale. Means it was trying to turn it over.. and trust me, the starter motor has a lot of juice. It was probably seized up pretty good.

RealWing

Yes, I was running 5W20 as specified by Acura (I only use synthetic) Seems odd because I've been in far colder conditions (-40C/-40F). Plus Acura designed the engine for very cold conditions.
However that is certainly a plausible theory.

RealWing

I agree. I had a boost from another person (Honda Accord!!) and had 2 batteries plus a running engine hooked direct to the cables to the starter and it would not turn. That leads one to conclude the engine was seized at that point.
After it got in the shop and warmed up with a new starter, there was enough torque to break it free and it was able to start???

Majofo

The engine looks pretty clean. I don't see any sludge and oil pressure is pretty much full pressure right after startup, but with those kms on it.. I don't think it's unreasonable for the cold viscosity to have thickened up. I think 5w20 is rated to -20-30c but that's fresh fluid.

If the car saw -40c and was sitting long enough for temps to settle, consider yourself lucky. Use 0w20 during the cold months. I'm sure Acura has some blurb about this. There's also a different service interval for timing belt service if you're vehicle goes through harsh winters / summers, probably around 100k kms.

Anyways, sucks that this happened. That engine is salvageable, but sounds like you made out well. Hopefully they goodwilled some of it.

RealWing

I have been consistently using high quality full synthetic oil (Amsoil Signature Series) there is no difference in the "pour point" between 5W20 and 0W20. Both are -53C (-63F) using the ASTM D97 test.
If one was using std dino oil, the pour point would be lot higher (-33C for Castrol GTX)
As a comparison , the MDX in Wisconsin was using Acura non synthetic. Their engine looks like it has a lot of sludge int it. So, 2 different oils but same failure.

I've turned down the first Goodwill offer. The second Goodwill offer was magically double the first!! I haven't accepted yet. Persuing legal options.

RealWing

This is a close-up of the damaged piston when the head was first removed by the Honda dealer. You can see the broken pieces of ring.
One theory is the ring broke first (exact cause unknown), jammed between the piston and cylinder wall on the down-stroke and busted the chunk off the piston???


IMG_1252 cropped w text_zpsbd9nrcru.jpg Photo by Superbird4406 | Photobucket

NBP04TL4ME

I know you are supposed to be keeping this hush, hush, but would you be willing to share the details of the two goodwill offers?

RealWing

If and when I accept Acura's "final" Goodwill offer, I will be required to sign a legal waiver not to disclose the terms of the settlement or discussions with Honda Canada. I haven't signed anything yet and thus have been free to publically report any verbal offers or discussions, which I shared previously on mdxers.org. The first verbal offer was $2200 (50% 0f the cost of the used engine) The 2nd verbal offer was ~$4200 (50% of the total cost of repairs, but not including my rental car costs of $804.) I would thus be out of pocket for ~$5000.

NBP04TL4ME

Have you considered selling/trading as is? Or are you definitely getting it back on the road?

RealWing

It is back on the road with a complete used engine installed

NBP04TL4ME

Sorry, I missed that in your first post. Happy with the used engine and the work done so far?

Majofo

Are you kidding me.. Justn and I can get a used J37 for about $750 with pcm/ecu and harness. Install for about $200.

Majofo

Pour point is the physical characteristic of it turning to molasses. The CCS Visc on that oil is -30C, and that's fresh oil. You had over 7k kms on it, I guarantee you the spec / cold visc is different. Take some old oil and new oil. Cover it and place them outside (< -20C). See if they swirl the same after 30 mins. I bet you'd see a difference.

I'm not a fan of the signature series. I like Amsoil, but I think they have changed quite a bit over the last several years. Although it's marketed as an extended OCI oil, that's really in optimum areas where it's cool (not freezing) year round, low air sediment, you're running a stock airbox with a new filter (are you running an aftermarket air filter or CAI?), your commute is all highway, and you drive a small passenger car with a decent sized sump, never taking passengers or hauling shit.. etc..

..and they even say to use their oil filter. I wouldn't run it much longer than you had it in your engine. There are people out there who spun rod bearings on the stuff doing extended OCIs (Acura and Lexus - 10-15k miles).

If you're lucky, they charge you base rate for labor. If you lawyer up, you'll lose. I'd just pursue it amicably, try to get more out of it and make sure they warranty the engine for 3 yrs. Be done with it.

RealWing

Correct. CCS is a better comparison. I've never encountered any abnormal issues with SS. I had been changing at the Mtce Minder indicator (~13000 Km or 8,000 miles)
I have also been analyzing my oil every change and the BN has always been very good as has Visc. Had a good look at the bearings in my "dead" engine and they looked perfect.
Having said that, I have not pushed this oil past that mileage

Majofo

I'm not saying it's a bad oil, I'm just wary of their extended OCI. GL with everything and thanks for sharing.

RealWing

Found another failure that sounds identical - but in a 3.5L engine. (posted in 2012) Exact same #5 cylinder again.


"Has anyone else had a problem with their Ridgeline? We have a 2008 Ridgeline that we purchased new and had never had a problem until last weeK! Was driving on I-26 in the North Carolina hills and as I was going down the engine light came on. Before I could react to the light the rpm's shot up to over 6000. I quickly got off the highway but by then it sounded like the engine was coming apart (which is was!). I am not an engine person... but honda dealer told me that number 5 piston had broken (or burn off) and through debri all thru the engine! Engine is HISTORY! With 72,000 miles, garage kept, and every service record up to date and not one past issue I have blown engine! I kept being reminded that it was 12,000 miles out of power train warranty during the initial investigation (which was madding!) Now honda has agreed to pay 75% of the cost but we will still be out about $2000 for a new engine on a Honda that has 72,000 miles & maintained perfectly! Oh, it still has the original tires... I guess Michelens tires last longer that Honda engines! Anyone else out there had any issues with their Ridgeline!"

RealWing

Have decided to appeal directly to the President/CEO of Honda Canada for a review of my engine failure.

NBP04TL4ME

Wow! By doing so are you jeopardizing any of the previous offers. IOW does it now become all or nothing?

Best of luck to you -

RealWing

I currently have a formal written offer that is valid to March 6th. I havent accepted or rejected it.

RealWing

Have managed to get my broken piston and rings into a metallurgical lab for analysis. Will be most interested in what they find that might pinpoint the root cause of the failure.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

cool! interested in results

NBP04TL4ME

Agreed!!!

RealWing

Got a verbal reply that Acura/Honda Canada will not change the offer. Haven't seen anything in writing yet.
Safety-related defect complaint filed on-line with Transport Canada. Also sent them hard copy photos of my broken piston and the one in Wisconsin that had an identical failure.


Nothing yet from the metallurgical examination of the piston.

RealWing

I have accepted Honda Canada's unchanged offer but had to sign a "gag order", so I cant discuss details now.
However, you can probably guess what I thought of the whole ordeal since my MDX is now gone - traded in on a leased 2015 Lexus RX350 F Sport.
Too bad, since I really did like my MDX - before the engine destructed.

No results from the Met lab yet on the analysis of my failed piston. When I get some info, I will post an update.