Lamborghini: Development and Technology News
03-31-2010, 12:32 PM
#41
*raises hand*
Of course I can't afford one (not yet anyways :devilgrin), but it's the principle. Lamborghini is by far my favorite supercar manufacturer, and to take MT away from a supercar is like taking Pam Anderson to a A cup size bra. It's just not right. MT is all about being engaged and apart of the driving experience. There's something to be said about being connected with the car like that.
It's not about destination that's important, but the journey.
With AT, it turns the experience more into driving out of 'necessity'.
03-31-2010, 12:47 PM
#42
TellinItLikeItIsSince1/06
sadly, this is coming true with Ferrari too....i guess true driving enthusiasts cant afford them, and these rich people who want the best can't drive them...auto it is!!!
Looks like Porsche is one of the last true and proper sports/supercars...
03-31-2010, 01:04 PM
#43
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
03-31-2010, 01:25 PM
#45
actually i totally would expect something like this from Lambo...its really just a Fast car for show and attention. i cant remember the last person to buy a Lamborghini because of racing heritage, the driving position inside, the smooth balanced feel of the clutch, etc [its because none of this exists with a lambo]....people buy Lamborghinis because they have too much money and want to show it...most people probably opted for E-gear or w/e it is and paddles...
sadly, this is coming true with Ferrari too....i guess true driving enthusiasts cant afford them, and these rich people who want the best can't drive them...auto it is!!!
Looks like Porsche is one of the last true and proper sports/supercars...
sadly, this is coming true with Ferrari too....i guess true driving enthusiasts cant afford them, and these rich people who want the best can't drive them...auto it is!!!
Looks like Porsche is one of the last true and proper sports/supercars...
03-31-2010, 01:36 PM
#46
Registered but harmless
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Age: 59
Posts: 14,842
Received 1,102 Likes
on
763 Posts
When the DSGs, auto-manuals and push-button gearshift versions of the car became faster than the manual trans versions, there was no justification to have a manual trans for performance.
actually i totally would expect something like this from Lambo...its really just a Fast car for show and attention. i cant remember the last person to buy a Lamborghini because of racing heritage, the driving position inside, the smooth balanced feel of the clutch, etc [its because none of this exists with a lambo]....
The only cars I'd consider with manual transmissions had better have good shifters and clutches, like the Miata/MX-5, TSX and RX-8.
If the manual transmission is not nice to use, I'd either get an auto trans or skip the car entirely.
03-31-2010, 01:41 PM
#47
My Garage
The sad thing about this is not that Lambo is dropping it, it's that cars in general are dropping it. Manual transmissions will inevitably be phased out. That's what sucks.
03-31-2010, 01:55 PM
#48
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Stockton, California
Age: 33
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
11 Posts
I know people in America aren't all that big on manual transmissions, but when I lived in Germany it seemed like more cars had manual transmissions than automatics. 
03-31-2010, 02:53 PM
#49
My only car is a Bus
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
This is from last year but Ferrari says this:
The head of engine development at Ferrari, Vittorio Dini, says manual transmissions have had their day, with the latest twin-clutch automatic transmission offered in the 458 Italia providing quicker acceleration and better fuel economy than a manual.
“The manual gearbox has been a tradition for us but almost nobody buys one anymore,” he says.
He says the take-up of manual transmissions on the forerunner to the 458, the F430, was just five per cent, while demand for a self-shifting box on the recently released California convertible was even less.
“I don’t even think we have sold one yet. We offered it because some customers said they wanted it, but that hasn’t been the case,” he says.
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/ferra...1130-jzha.html
Mercedes-Benz dropped the manuel from the SLK350 and the C350 because orders were less than 15%.
And the G8/Caprice was not a victim of being a bad car but of being part of Pontiac. The car was actually well reviewed but it had the added disadvantage of being imported from Australia. Also, the Union Goons weren't too happy GM was selling non-Union made cars (they said the same thing about the GTO).
The head of engine development at Ferrari, Vittorio Dini, says manual transmissions have had their day, with the latest twin-clutch automatic transmission offered in the 458 Italia providing quicker acceleration and better fuel economy than a manual.
“The manual gearbox has been a tradition for us but almost nobody buys one anymore,” he says.
He says the take-up of manual transmissions on the forerunner to the 458, the F430, was just five per cent, while demand for a self-shifting box on the recently released California convertible was even less.
“I don’t even think we have sold one yet. We offered it because some customers said they wanted it, but that hasn’t been the case,” he says.
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/ferra...1130-jzha.html
Mercedes-Benz dropped the manuel from the SLK350 and the C350 because orders were less than 15%.
And the G8/Caprice was not a victim of being a bad car but of being part of Pontiac. The car was actually well reviewed but it had the added disadvantage of being imported from Australia. Also, the Union Goons weren't too happy GM was selling non-Union made cars (they said the same thing about the GTO).
03-31-2010, 03:04 PM
#51
Living the Dream
I honestly do not blame Ferrari/Lamborghini. It makes too much sense.
Look back at recent road tests (C&D, Automobile etc) how many F360s, F430s, and Gallardos have had "real" manuals in them? The one I can remember was a C&D test of a Gallardo and they broke the shifter. They were driving the car with channel lock pliers as the shifter.
They all now shower the love on the automated manual/DSG trans. Even Jeremy Clarkson, something tells me he could give two hot shits that they no longer have a "real" manual in these cars. They simply drive better with the automated manual.
P.S.
I love the 6-speed in my TSX.
Look back at recent road tests (C&D, Automobile etc) how many F360s, F430s, and Gallardos have had "real" manuals in them? The one I can remember was a C&D test of a Gallardo and they broke the shifter. They were driving the car with channel lock pliers as the shifter.
They all now shower the love on the automated manual/DSG trans. Even Jeremy Clarkson, something tells me he could give two hot shits that they no longer have a "real" manual in these cars. They simply drive better with the automated manual.
P.S.
I love the 6-speed in my TSX.
03-31-2010, 03:17 PM
#53
03-31-2010, 07:13 PM
#54
TellinItLikeItIsSince1/06
Whereas the difference with Lambo is that it seems to be purely a Fast car for show. Lambo has few to no F1 victories or anything else to back up why they should go auto-manual except that rich people, who cant drive, want a Lambo.
Ferrari's on the other hand actually feel more natural with auto-manual transmissions because of their victories in F1 (no manuals there) and because they were the first car EVER to have auto-manual sequential or paddle shifting in the F355 of the 90s.
any other comments ricky??
03-31-2010, 08:52 PM
#55
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NorCal
Age: 54
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is really sad, and it tugs at my heartstrings as an enthusiast, but there are a few hard truths to acknowledge.
The lion's share of classic and not so classic Ferraris have gearchange characteristics that can only lovingly be described as dogshit. If you've ever driven an older 308 or Mondial you'll know what I'm talking about; getting that lever to squeak-clack through the metal gate is a labor of love. It is the same kind of love only a mother can have for a really ugly baby. Some of the front engined Ferraris are less recalcitrant, but not by that much. Savvy specialist mechanics do have some tricks to slick up these linkages, but they're playing catch-up to compromised designs.
Lambos aren't/weren't any better, also suffering from ponderous gate-itis PLUS a dogleg 1-2 shift. One guy went as far as to completely re-engineer the shift linkage in his Muira back in the day.
Now let's be fair, Porsche themselves weren't known for their shift action until the 924 and 928 came along, and the 911 only really got a modern shift action with the 964 series.....although the G50 Carreras were a big improvement. For some fun, go out and find a pre-G50 transmission 911 (1986 and earlier) with high miles and take it for a spin. If the shifter bushings are shot, the gearchange will feel like stirring a bucket of oatmeal and fish heads with a broken fishing rod. I drove a 1977 3.0 Euro Carrera like that years ago, and I could move the shift lever side to side a full 3 inches....while it was IN GEAR.
All Porsches have great manual gearchanges now, I don't see them killing the manual anytime soon. The PDK will take a bite out of the manual's numbers for sure, but Porsche will keep on with the manual for some time.
My own personal opinion? Nothing beats the pure satisfaction of a perfectly executed rev-matching shift, nor the feeling of accomplishment of getting every gear right on a backroad slice and dice. Same goes for the racetrack. It's a measure of personal driver skill and accomplishment, pure and simple.
-Mirror
The lion's share of classic and not so classic Ferraris have gearchange characteristics that can only lovingly be described as dogshit. If you've ever driven an older 308 or Mondial you'll know what I'm talking about; getting that lever to squeak-clack through the metal gate is a labor of love. It is the same kind of love only a mother can have for a really ugly baby. Some of the front engined Ferraris are less recalcitrant, but not by that much. Savvy specialist mechanics do have some tricks to slick up these linkages, but they're playing catch-up to compromised designs.
Lambos aren't/weren't any better, also suffering from ponderous gate-itis PLUS a dogleg 1-2 shift. One guy went as far as to completely re-engineer the shift linkage in his Muira back in the day.
Now let's be fair, Porsche themselves weren't known for their shift action until the 924 and 928 came along, and the 911 only really got a modern shift action with the 964 series.....although the G50 Carreras were a big improvement. For some fun, go out and find a pre-G50 transmission 911 (1986 and earlier) with high miles and take it for a spin. If the shifter bushings are shot, the gearchange will feel like stirring a bucket of oatmeal and fish heads with a broken fishing rod. I drove a 1977 3.0 Euro Carrera like that years ago, and I could move the shift lever side to side a full 3 inches....while it was IN GEAR.
All Porsches have great manual gearchanges now, I don't see them killing the manual anytime soon. The PDK will take a bite out of the manual's numbers for sure, but Porsche will keep on with the manual for some time.
My own personal opinion? Nothing beats the pure satisfaction of a perfectly executed rev-matching shift, nor the feeling of accomplishment of getting every gear right on a backroad slice and dice. Same goes for the racetrack. It's a measure of personal driver skill and accomplishment, pure and simple.
-Mirror
Last edited by TheMirror; 03-31-2010 at 08:56 PM.
03-31-2010, 10:21 PM
#56
on every post about how this was no surpriseand
on taking a 3-pedal manual anyday over a DCT. No transmission can match the satisfaction of working a shifter, rev-matching, etc. A manual transmission is like A/C or the heater to me... I can live without it but it's one of the last things I'd want to go without in a car.I have always LOVED driving, even when I just started with a SLOW ass automatic Civic. Now my preferences and experiences have been greatly expanded but driving stick will still be one of, if not the most favorite part of driving for me
03-31-2010, 10:35 PM
#57
One on the right for me
[true, but either way Porsche is a true sports car with full manual easily available on every model. And last time I checked, most buy Porsche not only to look great but because of true Porsche Racing Heritage, Great driving position, the balanced dynamics of the car (even though the engine is way out back, thats engineering!)....i could go on and on my friend.
any other comments ricky??
any other comments ricky??
03-31-2010, 11:17 PM
#59
Here's 2 examples. There's some more but I don't feel the need to post them. Not all Autos get better MPG than Manuals though.
http://www.vw.com/gti/completespecs/en/us/
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx
03-31-2010, 11:54 PM
#60
true, but either way Porsche is a true sports car with full manual easily available on every model. And last time I checked, most buy Porsche not only to look great but because of true Porsche Racing Heritage, Great driving position, the balanced dynamics of the car (even though the engine is way out back, thats engineering!)....i could go on and on my friend.
Just because Porsche still offers a manual, doesn't mean the consumers are ordering them that way, either.
And btw, manual is not available in all Porsche's. The Cayenne does not have it, nor do the Panamera's.
04-01-2010, 12:38 AM
#61
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NorCal
Age: 54
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/ca...s/?gtabindex=2
Additionally the Panamera is available with a 6-speed ZF manual in Europe, probably not pertinent to this discussion here.
Last edited by TheMirror; 04-01-2010 at 12:42 AM.
04-01-2010, 12:42 AM
#62
TellinItLikeItIsSince1/06
$200 says 80% of Porsche owners don't know shit about Porsche's racing heritage. Stop preaching your biased views; Porsche is every bit as guilty of people buying them for looks as much as Ferrari & Lamborghini.
Just because Porsche still offers a manual, doesn't mean the consumers are ordering them that way, either.
And btw, manual is not available in all Porsche's. The Cayenne does not have it, nor do the Panamera's.
Just because Porsche still offers a manual, doesn't mean the consumers are ordering them that way, either.
And btw, manual is not available in all Porsche's. The Cayenne does not have it, nor do the Panamera's.
but enough of my preaching, I am sure you are right overall Rick_TL-S. Plenty of rich guys would indeed buy a tiptronic Porsche for the looks etc...I guess I am looking at driving enthusiasts compared to the average rich man who doesn't know about cars. I am indeed biased. And my point is that Porsche (and also BMW for that matter) are some of the last true driver's cars and this will probably be more and more true as time goes on.
So in the end, people can buy w/e they want, and I would only buy a true driver's car if the time ever comes for me.
to stay on topic though, again, I am not surprised at Lambo for my said reasons.
Last edited by '01White3.2CL; 04-01-2010 at 12:44 AM.
04-01-2010, 02:09 AM
#63
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NorCal
Age: 54
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
right now.
04-01-2010, 10:30 AM
#64
Senior Moderator
This is news...so, into Automotive News it goes! 
04-01-2010, 04:39 PM
#66
Senior Moderator
If Honda/Acura made the gearbox, I'd be right there with you, BMW's sucks in 6MT.
There's a huge difference, and the DCT is WAY better than that SMG crap they have on the E46. The car shifts so fast and is very responsive to the clicks of the knob or paddle shifters, so much fun, worth the extra money for DCT.
There's a huge difference, and the DCT is WAY better than that SMG crap they have on the E46. The car shifts so fast and is very responsive to the clicks of the knob or paddle shifters, so much fun, worth the extra money for DCT.
04-01-2010, 11:08 PM
#68
Lambo must have looked at the TSX Wagon and said "whew, I guess we don't need to keep making a stick"
04-02-2010, 01:02 AM
#69
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Some Auto manufacturers have produced Transmissions that really outperform Manuals. In those instances an Auto is definitely prefered.
However there are a few that cannot, namely Honda. Look at the curb weight differences between a manual tranmission Honda versus an Automatic, it sometimes reaches a weight in excess of 100lbs. That's a significant difference, and it hinders performance and gas mileage.
Generally an A/T weighs more than a M/T, but some campanies have gotten that weight difference to be very marginal (10lbs) i.e. BMW335i A/T versus M/T.
However there are a few that cannot, namely Honda. Look at the curb weight differences between a manual tranmission Honda versus an Automatic, it sometimes reaches a weight in excess of 100lbs. That's a significant difference, and it hinders performance and gas mileage.
Generally an A/T weighs more than a M/T, but some campanies have gotten that weight difference to be very marginal (10lbs) i.e. BMW335i A/T versus M/T.
04-02-2010, 02:27 PM
#71
Trolling Canuckistan
Lamborghini is a high performance automobile. The manual transmission DECREASES the performance. The E-Gear option INCREASES the performance.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
04-02-2010, 05:06 PM
#72
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Lamborghini is a high performance automobile. The manual transmission DECREASES the performance. The E-Gear option INCREASES the performance.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
04-02-2010, 08:24 PM
#73
My only car is a Bus
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
When's the JATO option then?
Lamborghini is a high performance automobile. The manual transmission DECREASES the performance. The E-Gear option INCREASES the performance.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
04-02-2010, 10:10 PM
#74
You mean Jota?
04-03-2010, 02:52 PM
#75
My only car is a Bus
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
No man JATO... Jet Assisted Take Off. Greatest urban legend ever:
http://www.snopes.com/autos/dream/jato.asp
http://www.snopes.com/autos/dream/jato.asp
04-05-2010, 10:47 AM
#76
The sizzle in the Steak
04-05-2010, 01:01 PM
#77
_____ like a rabbit
Personally, if its quicker, then i would get the auto/semi auto/dual clutch whatever. People keep saying manuals are fun fun fun... whats more fun then beating the other car? If the rabbit was offered in a dual clutch, i would of gotten that over the 5spd mt...
04-05-2010, 01:02 PM
#78
_____ like a rabbit
Lamborghini is a high performance automobile. The manual transmission DECREASES the performance. The E-Gear option INCREASES the performance.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
The goal of a High Performance car manufacturer is to give you the highest amount of performance available. At this point, this does not include manual transmissions.
I 100% agree that banging the shifter and working the clutch is very pleasing in a tactile way and offers level of self satisfaction, however, we are talking performance here and the numbers don't lie.
02-25-2015, 01:47 PM
#80
Senior Moderator
A car teased for Geneva...
It's speculated that it is likely the Aventador Super Veloce...if yes, I'll move it into that thread when confirmed.
It's speculated that it is likely the Aventador Super Veloce...if yes, I'll move it into that thread when confirmed.