Honda: Development and Technology News
10-29-2015, 01:18 PM
#2442
2G TLX-S
^^^^^
Hooray !
7-speed auto box ? So much for the Acura flagship sedan.
Hooray !
7-speed auto box ? So much for the Acura flagship sedan.
10-29-2015, 01:22 PM
#2443
Team Owner
More gears =/= better.
10-29-2015, 05:13 PM
#2445
Team Owner
Wait until someone come up with 11 or 12 speed.
it used to be "i could feel my 2nd gear slipping", now it is "i have no idea which gear is slipping. It could be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, or maybe even 6th"
it used to be "i could feel my 2nd gear slipping", now it is "i have no idea which gear is slipping. It could be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, or maybe even 6th"
10-29-2015, 07:07 PM
#2446
2G TLX-S
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Edward'TLS (10-30-2015)
12-22-2015, 05:53 PM
#2448
Safety Car
Wards
TOKYO – Honda is moving full speed ahead with the implementation of a powertrain plan announced at the 2013 Tokyo auto show.
With 5 new engines already on the market and two to come in 2016, plus three CVTs, the automaker is setting its sights on 2020 and beyond.
Honda produces nearly 30 million engines a year, including 4.5 million for automobiles.
In an interview with WardsAuto, Keiji Ohtsu, chief technology strategy officer-automobile R&D center at Honda R&D, details the automaker’s strategy.
WardsAuto: At the 2013 Tokyo Motor Show, Honda rolled out a new series of downsized, turbocharged engines with plans to introduce them by 2016. What is the status of the rollout?
Ohtsu: We have three new gasoline engines – 1.0L, 1.5L and 2.0L – which are being adapted to regional needs in North America, Europe and China, all markets where emissions regulations are becoming increasingly stringent. China offers the added incentive of a tax break for smaller-displacement engines, further encouraging downsizing.
In addition, we are focusing on weight reduction, changing V-6 to inline-4 engines and inline 4s to 3-cyls.
WardsAuto: Honda introduced the 1.5L unit in 2015. So far, on which models?
Ohtsu: On the Step Wagon in April and Jade RS in May, both in Japan. We adopted the 2.0L turbo on the Civic Type R in October, also in Japan, and will begin mass production of the engine next March in the U.S. for our Civic lineup. We are also readying the 1.5L unit for the China market. The 1.0L engine is still under development.
WardsAuto: What plans do you have for your 2.4L naturally aspirated engine?
Ohtsu: Where possible, we hope to replace it with the downsized 1.5L unit.
WardsAuto: Will you discontinue it?
Ohtsu: No. We currently produce five naturally aspirated gasoline engines, including the 2.4L unit, two downsized turbocharged engines and two diesels. A 1.0L gasoline turbo is still under development.
Depending on the market and region, but particularly in Asia and other emerging markets, we will continue offering our naturally aspirated lineup which tend to be less costly.
WardsAuto: What share will downsized turbocharged engines claim by 2020?
Ohtsu: Maybe 30%. In addition, we expect the ratio of hybrids to grow, although for the time being Honda won’t use turbocharged engines in our hybrids.
WardsAuto: And your hybrid sales target?
Ohtsu: 20 percent by 2020. It will vary by region. In Japan, for instance, it could be as high as 80%. In the U.S. we’re aiming for 20%.
WardsAuto: So, combined – hybrids and downsized turbo engines – will account for 50% of sales?
Ohtsu: Yes.
WardsAuto: And in the case of hybrids, you've made a complete shift to lithium-ion batteries?
Ohtsu: For all models, yes. (The Accord is available in both conventional dual-motor and plug-in types.)
WardsAuto: It is probably premature to discuss Honda’s next stage of development since your 1.0L turbo engine is still not on the market. But in general terms, what comes next?
Ohtsu: We’re just approaching the midway point in our plan. We eventually want to achieve heat efficiency of 50% through lean turbocharging. We will focus on HLSI, or homogeneous lean-charge spark-ignition technology.
WardsAuto: And you expect to complete technical development in 2020?
Ohtsu: Yes.
WardsAuto: Then when will you introduce the engine to the marketplace?
Ohtsu: We don’t have a specific model in mind yet.
WardsAuto: Do you consider HLSI technology evolutionary or revolutionary?
Ohtsu: It is not revolutionary. Of the two leading combustion technology candidates – the other being HCCI, or homogeneous-charge-compression ignition – we have opted for spark ignition because we feel that HCCI is limited in terms of rpm, torque and operational band or range. HLSI is better suited to Honda’s engine concept. We’ve researched both, of course.
WardsAuto: What sort of fuel-economy benefits do you envision – 30%?
Ohtsu: If we achieve 50% heat efficiency, it would put our conventional engines on an equal footing with our hybrids. Using the JC08 test mode, the Fit, for instance, would improve to 87 mpg (2.7 L/100 km) from 61 mpg (3.9 L/100 km) at present. This is an estimate, of course.
WardsAuto: And in the U.S.?
Ohtsu: We’re probably looking at a 25% improvement. But it depends on the transmission and also vehicle weight.
WardsAuto: Is Honda planning any other turbocharged engines?
Ohtsu: We will add a 3.5L turbo for the (Acura) NSX hybrid next year. The engine will be produced at our Anna, OH, powertrain plant.
WardsAuto: Will there be any further additions to your 4-cyl. lineup, currently 1.5L and 2.0L?
Ohtsu: There will be nothing for Honda, but we’re considering a new exclusive engine for our Acura lineup. However, we have no specific plan as yet.
WardsAuto: Is there any chance of Honda reducing the number of cylinders in your 1.5L engine (which currently has four)?
Ohtsu:The torque range in our engine lineup is 96 lb.-ft. (130 Nm) to 273 lb.-ft. (370 Nm). If we improve heat efficiency to 50%, we would achieve a wider torque range than at present. Thus to answer your question, no. We will not reduce the number of cylinders.
WardsAuto: Moving on to diesel engines, what is the current situation?
Ohtsu: Our 1.6L turbodiesel, which we produce at Honda of the U.K. Mfg., is our main engine. A new 1.5L unit (manufactured at Honda Cars India) is less expensive and will be sold in India and other parts of Asia.
WardsAuto: Do you have plans to export your i-DTEC turbodiesel to the U.S. market? And can you meet U.S. emissions regulations?
Ohtsu: I believe we can meet the regulations. But from a cost standpoint, diesels are really expensive. So we have no plans to introduce the engine in the U.S.
WardsAuto: How much more expensive – 50%?
Ohtsu: More. Also keep in mind that the price differential between diesel fuel and gasoline is very small in the U.S. There’s no fuel-savings incentive.
WardsAuto: Added to which the Volkswagen scandal has hurt the image of diesels.
Ohtsu: Of course.
WardsAuto: Switching to Honda’s 0.66L mini or kei engine, which was redesigned in 2011, will Honda eventually merge it with the 1.0L powerplant?
Ohtsu: No. Our kei engine is unique in terms of how it’s used and packaged. Even if the engines were to have the same displacement, the engine and transmission layout would be different. And especially because of the Japanese market (where minis account for nearly 40% of sales), I don’t think that the category will disappear.
WardsAuto: On the subject of transmissions, Honda announced that it would introduce a new 10-speed automatic. ZF currently supplies a 9-speed automatic to Acura for the TLX from its plant in Laurens, SC. Will this new 10-speed be a Honda unique product?
Ohtsu: Yes. We will manufacture it in-house for the U.S. market for cars powered by V-6 engines.
WardsAuto: Does Honda have plans to increase gears beyond 10?
Ohtsu: No. We feel that a 10-speed is enough. As I said, our maximum torque range is 273 lb.-ft. (370 Nm). A 10-speed is best suited for that torque level.
WardsAuto: And your other transmissions?
Ohtsu: We currently offer an 8-speed dual-clutch transmission, also for the Acura TLX.
WardsAuto: When will you introduce the 10-speed?
Ohtsu: Soon. (For smaller cars, Honda already has introduced three new CVTs.)
WardsAuto: Looking at future powertrains, the Japanese government believes fuel-cell cars will take off around 2025. Some years back, a Honda research executive reported that your 2020 price target for a fuel cell car would be ¥4 million, $35,000 at the current exchange rate, which is equivalent to an upper-end Accord. That was a bit optimistic, but not terribly so. What is your view today in light of Honda’s planned launch next March of the new Clarity?
Ohtsu: We think that fuel-cell vehicles will come into the mainstream in 2030, along with battery-powered electric cars. We also feel that going forward hydrogen will be the best fuel alternative.
WardsAuto: What does “mainstream” mean – 5% of sales?
Ohtsu: We still don’t have a clear idea, but the common understanding is 10%.
WardsAuto: As head of automotive technology strategy, how do you see the Asian market evolving in the coming 5 to 10 years with respect to powertrains, particularly hybrids?
Ohtsu: In Southeast Asia, we will supply our current lineup of naturally aspirated engines. We expect fuel-economy regulations to become more stringent. Therefore, we want to establish our latest technologies 1st in industrialized markets – namely, North America and Europe – and steadily reduce cost so that we can transfer the technologies to Southeast Asia.
WardsAuto: And China?
Ohtsu: China will adopt some of the world’s most stringent regulations in terms of fuel economy. In 2025, we don’t expect to be able to sell conventional internal-combustion engines, meaning we will be selling mostly hybrids including plug-in types.
WardsAuto: And India?
Ohtsu: Like in Southeast Asia, we will supply naturally aspirated engines plus 1.5L diesels. In the past, there has been preferential treatment toward diesel cars. That is no longer the case. We anticipate a steady switch to gasoline.
Looking at the bigger picture, our intention is to reduce our carbon footprint. Whether through downsizing and raising thermal efficiency or hybridization and introducing fuel cells, the powertrain will be central to whatever we do.
Last edited by TSX69; 12-22-2015 at 05:56 PM.
12-23-2015, 03:37 AM
#2449
Race Director
WardsAuto: Do you have plans to export your i-DTEC turbodiesel to the U.S. market? And can you meet U.S. emissions regulations?
Ohtsu: I believe we can meet the regulations. But from a cost standpoint, diesels are really expensive. So we have no plans to introduce the engine in the U.S.
WardsAuto: How much more expensive – 50%?
Ohtsu: More. Also keep in mind that the price differential between diesel fuel and gasoline is very small in the U.S. There’s no fuel-savings incentive.
12-23-2015, 11:27 AM
#2450
Team Owner
It's because the environmental standards in NA are much higher than the rest of the world. It's like the whole VW scandal. So they can build a Diesel engine that will meet all our emission regulations, but to do so and to be able to keep the power up, they have to drop extra money in.
And because diesel is more expensive than regular gas, it doesn't make sense from a consumer point of view. You buy a car with a Diesel engine that is more expensive than the gas counterpart, and then you pay even more every time you fill up. It would be a hard for them to move volumes of such a car.
And because diesel is more expensive than regular gas, it doesn't make sense from a consumer point of view. You buy a car with a Diesel engine that is more expensive than the gas counterpart, and then you pay even more every time you fill up. It would be a hard for them to move volumes of such a car.
12-23-2015, 03:32 PM
#2451
It's because the environmental standards in NA are much higher than the rest of the world. It's like the whole VW scandal. So they can build a Diesel engine that will meet all our emission regulations, but to do so and to be able to keep the power up, they have to drop extra money in.
And because diesel is more expensive than regular gas, it doesn't make sense from a consumer point of view. You buy a car with a Diesel engine that is more expensive than the gas counterpart, and then you pay even more every time you fill up. It would be a hard for them to move volumes of such a car.
And because diesel is more expensive than regular gas, it doesn't make sense from a consumer point of view. You buy a car with a Diesel engine that is more expensive than the gas counterpart, and then you pay even more every time you fill up. It would be a hard for them to move volumes of such a car.
12-23-2015, 05:31 PM
#2452
Team Owner
If Civic costs 40k then how much will Accord cost? and TLX, ILX?
You can put Gold plated turbo in the Civic and no one will pay 40k for one.
You can put Gold plated turbo in the Civic and no one will pay 40k for one.
12-23-2015, 06:20 PM
#2453
Engine price is fixed. TLX 4cylinder tech is $9k more than Civic touring. So you are probably looking at $49k for diesel TLX. It may make sense for people who drive alot on freeways. As new 9speed auto 160bhp 280 ft-lb. This so much torque for 4WD. Euro CRV rev only at 2000 rpm at 90mph and still get over 41mpg on 18inch rim and RDX size tires. This is not joke Like Lexus ES hybrid. this engine and transmission combo is not in Euro Civic.
12-23-2015, 06:33 PM
#2454
Team Owner
you are saying you want me to spend $50K for a TLX... not only that, it will be a Diesel and not only that.. it will only have 160hp? you are out of your mind.
who cares if it is 2000 rpm at 90mph when the redline is at 4000 rpm??????
who cares if it is 2000 rpm at 90mph when the redline is at 4000 rpm??????
12-23-2015, 06:46 PM
#2455
C&D tested TSX 2007 2.2 diesel with 6MT and it got 32mpg cimbined and 51mpg on freeway. You can practically double this numbers if the same car is tested with 9speed auto and 1.6dti. It's a supreme efficiency for long trips.
12-23-2015, 06:50 PM
#2456
Team Owner
do any of their $50k hybrid or whatever have 160hp also?
I doubt it, even if they do exist, how are they selling?
i would expect not very good. So you want Acura to follow a trend that has been proven to fail by the brands that are BETTER than Acura, instead of following what has been proven to succeed?
so again, you are saying the 2007 2.2 TSX diesel with 9speed auto will get 100mpg? are you pushing the car?
I doubt it, even if they do exist, how are they selling?
i would expect not very good. So you want Acura to follow a trend that has been proven to fail by the brands that are BETTER than Acura, instead of following what has been proven to succeed?
so again, you are saying the 2007 2.2 TSX diesel with 9speed auto will get 100mpg? are you pushing the car?
Last edited by oonowindoo; 12-23-2015 at 06:55 PM.
12-23-2015, 08:45 PM
#2457
do any of their $50k hybrid or whatever have 160hp also?
I doubt it, even if they do exist, how are they selling?
i would expect not very good. So you want Acura to follow a trend that has been proven to fail by the brands that are BETTER than Acura, instead of following what has been proven to succeed?
so again, you are saying the 2007 2.2 TSX diesel with 9speed auto will get 100mpg? are you pushing the car?
I doubt it, even if they do exist, how are they selling?
i would expect not very good. So you want Acura to follow a trend that has been proven to fail by the brands that are BETTER than Acura, instead of following what has been proven to succeed?
so again, you are saying the 2007 2.2 TSX diesel with 9speed auto will get 100mpg? are you pushing the car?
12-23-2015, 11:18 PM
#2458
Team Owner
^what does this have anything to do with what you said earlier?
and i can say Honda will not test the market in the N/A. Introducing Diesel in the US is the same as suicide right now.
and i can say Honda will not test the market in the N/A. Introducing Diesel in the US is the same as suicide right now.
12-24-2015, 12:17 AM
#2459
I am saying honda diesel is not the same thing as diesel from other firms. Other firms experiance should not influence Honda decision.
Even the low power 118bhp Civic can reach top speed of 212km per hour at 3900rpm.
2007 Honda Accord i-CTDi Diesel - Short Take Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver
We observed 51 mpg on a 150-mile highway loop at 70 mph and only managed to bring our overall figure down to 32 mpg by hammering the Accord around town and through our usual testing regimen
We observed 51 mpg on a 150-mile highway loop at 70 mph and only managed to bring our overall figure down to 32 mpg by hammering the Accord around town and through our usual testing regimen
Honda Civic 1.6 i-DTEC put to the test | The Citizen
0-100km/h is done in 10.47 seconds, versus the claimed 10.6 seconds. The quarter mile sprint was done in 17.50 seconds at 128.68 km/h, the longer 1km done in 31.94 seconds at 164.14 km/h and the top speed was recorded at 211.83 km/h true at 3900 rpm in 6th gear, versus 202 km/h claimed.
0-100km/h is done in 10.47 seconds, versus the claimed 10.6 seconds. The quarter mile sprint was done in 17.50 seconds at 128.68 km/h, the longer 1km done in 31.94 seconds at 164.14 km/h and the top speed was recorded at 211.83 km/h true at 3900 rpm in 6th gear, versus 202 km/h claimed.
12-24-2015, 02:03 AM
#2460
Race Director
Euro 6 and US regs are about the same. From a common sense POV I don't see how a diesel engine (which has about the same # of parts and basic design) can cost that much more? Does MB lose that much money on each E class diesel it sells (whose MSRP is about the same as a comparable gas engine model)? Or is that Honda's design and low volume is such that their cost structure is that much higher?
12-24-2015, 12:33 PM
#2461
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Here are some reasons diesel engines are more expensive than gasoline engines:
- diesel engines run at a higher temperature, so more expensive components that can withstand the heat are needed
- diesel engines tend to have larger capacities
- Things like common rail direct injection uses more expensive components than a similar gasoline engine
- most diesel engines also come fitted with turbochargers and intercoolers and this increases the overall price as well.
- additional exhaust treatment needed to ensure clean air emissions
For a car like the MB E Class you mentioned, it's a $53k car at the very least which can go up to $75k fully loaded.
On the other hand, for the likes of Honda, Toyota, or other more mainstream brands, we are talking about $20-$30k for a regular midsize sedan.
The diesel premium for both a E Class and a Honda Accord would most likely be very similar, say $2k extra cost for the manufacturer. The $2k to a $25k Accord is 8% of the vehicle price. But for the E Class, the $2k is only 3% of the vehicle price.
In other words, the overall price impact percentage wise is quite a lot higher for a cheaper car. On an expensive car, the difference is smaller.
Put it this way, if you can get a normal gas powered Accord Sport for $25k, but you need to pay $28k for a Accord Sport Diesel I4 with less power, would that still look as attractive? On the other hand, if Mercedes decides to make a E250 with the 2.0T from the CLA250 for $50k, and then the E250 diesel is $53k, would you feel the difference isn't that big?
- diesel engines run at a higher temperature, so more expensive components that can withstand the heat are needed
- diesel engines tend to have larger capacities
- Things like common rail direct injection uses more expensive components than a similar gasoline engine
- most diesel engines also come fitted with turbochargers and intercoolers and this increases the overall price as well.
- additional exhaust treatment needed to ensure clean air emissions
For a car like the MB E Class you mentioned, it's a $53k car at the very least which can go up to $75k fully loaded.
On the other hand, for the likes of Honda, Toyota, or other more mainstream brands, we are talking about $20-$30k for a regular midsize sedan.
The diesel premium for both a E Class and a Honda Accord would most likely be very similar, say $2k extra cost for the manufacturer. The $2k to a $25k Accord is 8% of the vehicle price. But for the E Class, the $2k is only 3% of the vehicle price.
In other words, the overall price impact percentage wise is quite a lot higher for a cheaper car. On an expensive car, the difference is smaller.
Put it this way, if you can get a normal gas powered Accord Sport for $25k, but you need to pay $28k for a Accord Sport Diesel I4 with less power, would that still look as attractive? On the other hand, if Mercedes decides to make a E250 with the 2.0T from the CLA250 for $50k, and then the E250 diesel is $53k, would you feel the difference isn't that big?
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00TL-P3.2 (12-28-2015)
12-24-2015, 01:01 PM
#2462
Team Owner
while what you said is true, i think the #1 reason why Diesel costs more than gas powered cars in the US is volume.
When you have less to sell and sold less, then the cost per unit goes up = higher selling price.
If you flip the coin, let's say 90% of the cars are sold in the US are diesel and only 10% are gas. Which one do you think will cost more for the same car with different engine?
"Things" in the niche market will always cost more regardless if it actually cost more to produce or not. Just because there is not enough demand and supply to offset the cost.
When you have less to sell and sold less, then the cost per unit goes up = higher selling price.
If you flip the coin, let's say 90% of the cars are sold in the US are diesel and only 10% are gas. Which one do you think will cost more for the same car with different engine?
"Things" in the niche market will always cost more regardless if it actually cost more to produce or not. Just because there is not enough demand and supply to offset the cost.
12-24-2015, 01:22 PM
#2463
Euro 6 and US regs are about the same. From a common sense POV I don't see how a diesel engine (which has about the same # of parts and basic design) can cost that much more? Does MB lose that much money on each E class diesel it sells (whose MSRP is about the same as a comparable gas engine model)? Or is that Honda's design and low volume is such that their cost structure is that much higher?
back in early 2008 6MT Euro Accord (2G TSX) could achieved about US 40mpg despite weighing 1632kg.
Honda Accord 2.2 i-DTEC | Honda Accord vs rivals | Auto Express
Details
Price: £24,910
Model tested: Accord 2.2 i-DTEC EX GT
Chart position: 2
WHY: New, upmarket Accord is on sale now in saloon form. A Tourer joins the line-up in September.
Economy
A claimed 50.4mpg is joint best on test. In our hands over a mixed route, the Honda averaged an impressive 43.9mpg.
Details
Price: £24,910
Model tested: Accord 2.2 i-DTEC EX GT
Chart position: 2
WHY: New, upmarket Accord is on sale now in saloon form. A Tourer joins the line-up in September.
Economy
A claimed 50.4mpg is joint best on test. In our hands over a mixed route, the Honda averaged an impressive 43.9mpg.
I think the newer 9AT/1.6idtec will be closer to 70 mpg combined.
They are testing upto 8 years. if they include greater than 10 years. the gap will be even wider.
Honda crowned the most reliable car for ninth time but which brand - loved by the rich and famous - is bottom of the pile? | This is Money
Honda crowned the most reliable car for ninth time but which brand - loved by the rich and famous - is bottom of the pile?
It means the Japanese badge has taken the crown nine years on the trot in annual data which analyses 50,000 policies on three to eight-year old cars.
Honda crowned the most reliable car for ninth time but which brand - loved by the rich and famous - is bottom of the pile?
It means the Japanese badge has taken the crown nine years on the trot in annual data which analyses 50,000 policies on three to eight-year old cars.
12-26-2015, 12:24 AM
#2464
Team Owner
There people who buy Lexus hybrids or Audi/BMW diesel who are priced similar. Honda/Acura hasn't tested the market.
C&D tested TSX 2007 2.2 diesel with 6MT and it got 32mpg cimbined and 51mpg on freeway. You can practically double this numbers if the same car is tested with 9speed auto and 1.6dti. It's a supreme efficiency for long trips.
C&D tested TSX 2007 2.2 diesel with 6MT and it got 32mpg cimbined and 51mpg on freeway. You can practically double this numbers if the same car is tested with 9speed auto and 1.6dti. It's a supreme efficiency for long trips.
12-26-2015, 12:26 AM
#2465
Team Owner
that's fucking awful. 
200km/h after five minutes on a runway longer than the one in FF6 
Last edited by TacoBello; 12-26-2015 at 12:29 AM.
12-26-2015, 12:34 AM
#2466
Team Owner
12-26-2015, 01:23 AM
#2467
Its 118bhp Euro Civic. performance comparable with Prius but with 50% better efficency. Your so called Prius will not touch such speed and certainly have not 6MT. so whats wrong with it?
12-26-2015, 01:43 AM
#2468
your so called BMW diesel cant match Accord Type S (6MT)even with start stop and 8speed auto. once things come to real driving experiance. latest Honda diesel thoroughly outclass all diesels in fuel efficiency and are record holders.
The person living in city driving of Paris.
Culture shock! |
Culture shock!
Posted on July 14, 2012 by Julian Parish 3
From V8 petrol to 4-cylinder diesel …
From rear-wheel drive to front-wheel drive …
From Britain (and North America) to Japan …
It has been fifteen years since I regularly drove a front-wheel drive car, so this was another big change for me. Until now, the best-handling FWD car I have “owned” was a Ford Mondeo V6 I ran as a company car in the UK back in 1995-96. It’s a little early to say how the Accord compares but first impressions are good. The Type-S has firmer suspension than the standard Accord and runs on 18-inch wheels with 235/40 Michelin Primacy tyres, a size up on the 260, but less performance-oriented than the Pilot Super Sports I had fitted on the 260 at the end.
I have been impressed by the crisp turn-in and lack of understeer; the car corners with little roll and – despite plenty of rain over the past month – I have not detected any significant problems with torque-steer. I have had no issues either with the electrically-assisted power steering, although these systems are sometimes criticized for their lack of feel. Testing the car for Fifth Gear, Vicki Butler-Henderson was taken aback by the car’s agility, describing it as having “pseudo-touring car levels” of handling.
I have left fuel consumption – one of the biggest reasons for my change – to the end. With the 260 I averaged about 23 mpg over 5 years and 38,000 miles; Paris traffic, warmer temperatures leading to more use of the air conditioning and higher motorway speeds probably pushed that down by 1-2 mpg compared with what I could have achieved in the UK, at least away from London. The Accord Type-S diesel has CO2 emissions of 147g/km, less than half those of the 260, but still some way behind the best-in-class figures achieved by BMW with their latest 320d,which produces near-identical power and torque, but emits just 119 g/km of CO2. The latest Honda diesel engine in the 2012 Civic is also more fuel-efficient. Even so, with trips to the UK and up to Normandy, plus some local journeys in the Paris area, I have so far averaged a highly creditable 47 mpg. The second tankful was in fact noticeably better than the first, returning over 49 mpg, as the engine has bedded in and I have become more used to its power characteristics. This is only slightly off the official EC combined figure of 50.4 mpg. With diesel at least 10% cheaper than unleaded in France my fuel bill has dropped by more than 60% overnight. Result!
The Accord does not have an automatic stop-start system, but – like many recent cars – it does have a gear shift indicator, telling you when to change up or down. This is rather too eager, encouraging you to short shift at only 1500/1600 rpm and so dropping you out of the power band. I prefer to change up a bit later, which lets you enjoy more of the performance and doesn’t seem to be harming the fuel consumption. It should also keep the DPF (diesel particulate filter) in better condition, as these can clog up with too much low-speed work. Another benefit of this economy is the great range between fill-ups it allows: with a tank of similar capacity to the 260, I have been going over 600 miles between visits to the petrol station, this without the low fuel light coming on.
Do I regret my decision to buy the Accord Type-S? No, it does what it says on the tin and then some; purchasing it always felt like a sensible decision, but it is more enjoyable to drive than I expected.
Culture shock!
Posted on July 14, 2012 by Julian Parish 3
From V8 petrol to 4-cylinder diesel …
From rear-wheel drive to front-wheel drive …
From Britain (and North America) to Japan …
It has been fifteen years since I regularly drove a front-wheel drive car, so this was another big change for me. Until now, the best-handling FWD car I have “owned” was a Ford Mondeo V6 I ran as a company car in the UK back in 1995-96. It’s a little early to say how the Accord compares but first impressions are good. The Type-S has firmer suspension than the standard Accord and runs on 18-inch wheels with 235/40 Michelin Primacy tyres, a size up on the 260, but less performance-oriented than the Pilot Super Sports I had fitted on the 260 at the end.
I have been impressed by the crisp turn-in and lack of understeer; the car corners with little roll and – despite plenty of rain over the past month – I have not detected any significant problems with torque-steer. I have had no issues either with the electrically-assisted power steering, although these systems are sometimes criticized for their lack of feel. Testing the car for Fifth Gear, Vicki Butler-Henderson was taken aback by the car’s agility, describing it as having “pseudo-touring car levels” of handling.
I have left fuel consumption – one of the biggest reasons for my change – to the end. With the 260 I averaged about 23 mpg over 5 years and 38,000 miles; Paris traffic, warmer temperatures leading to more use of the air conditioning and higher motorway speeds probably pushed that down by 1-2 mpg compared with what I could have achieved in the UK, at least away from London. The Accord Type-S diesel has CO2 emissions of 147g/km, less than half those of the 260, but still some way behind the best-in-class figures achieved by BMW with their latest 320d,which produces near-identical power and torque, but emits just 119 g/km of CO2. The latest Honda diesel engine in the 2012 Civic is also more fuel-efficient. Even so, with trips to the UK and up to Normandy, plus some local journeys in the Paris area, I have so far averaged a highly creditable 47 mpg. The second tankful was in fact noticeably better than the first, returning over 49 mpg, as the engine has bedded in and I have become more used to its power characteristics. This is only slightly off the official EC combined figure of 50.4 mpg. With diesel at least 10% cheaper than unleaded in France my fuel bill has dropped by more than 60% overnight. Result!
The Accord does not have an automatic stop-start system, but – like many recent cars – it does have a gear shift indicator, telling you when to change up or down. This is rather too eager, encouraging you to short shift at only 1500/1600 rpm and so dropping you out of the power band. I prefer to change up a bit later, which lets you enjoy more of the performance and doesn’t seem to be harming the fuel consumption. It should also keep the DPF (diesel particulate filter) in better condition, as these can clog up with too much low-speed work. Another benefit of this economy is the great range between fill-ups it allows: with a tank of similar capacity to the 260, I have been going over 600 miles between visits to the petrol station, this without the low fuel light coming on.
Do I regret my decision to buy the Accord Type-S? No, it does what it says on the tin and then some; purchasing it always felt like a sensible decision, but it is more enjoyable to drive than I expected.
Last edited by SSFTSX; 12-26-2015 at 01:46 AM.
08-23-2016, 03:43 PM
#2469
Honda Patents 11-Speed, Triple-Clutch Transmission » AutoGuide.com News
Honda Patents 11-Speed, Triple-Clutch Transmission
Aug 19, 2016
Honda has filed a new patent with the Japan Patent Office for a new transmission which features 11 speeds and three clutches.
In the description, Honda says that by using a third clutch, it will be able to decrease torque removal that occurs with dual-clutch transmissions. The patent application, which is translated from Japanese, also says that the new transmission will allow “speed change to be more effectively restricted and a speed change response to be increased.”
In a series of drawings, which you can view here, Honda lays out the transmission, describing an 11-speed unit.
There is no mention of what type of vehicle this transmission would eventually find a home in, though it sounds like it is being designed to improve efficiency, so a small fuel economy-minded car could be ideal.
The application was published on May 27, 2016 and is registered to Honda Motor Co Ltd. The inventor credited is Izumi Masao.
Honda Patents 11-Speed, Triple-Clutch Transmission
Aug 19, 2016
Honda has filed a new patent with the Japan Patent Office for a new transmission which features 11 speeds and three clutches.
In the description, Honda says that by using a third clutch, it will be able to decrease torque removal that occurs with dual-clutch transmissions. The patent application, which is translated from Japanese, also says that the new transmission will allow “speed change to be more effectively restricted and a speed change response to be increased.”
In a series of drawings, which you can view here, Honda lays out the transmission, describing an 11-speed unit.
There is no mention of what type of vehicle this transmission would eventually find a home in, though it sounds like it is being designed to improve efficiency, so a small fuel economy-minded car could be ideal.
The application was published on May 27, 2016 and is registered to Honda Motor Co Ltd. The inventor credited is Izumi Masao.
08-23-2016, 04:04 PM
#2470
Team Owner
Glad that Honda is innovating again.
But at some point there is a thing called too many gears. 4 speed is not efficient but 11 speed is just too much. At this point i am not sure if 3 clutches are too much or just right
But at some point there is a thing called too many gears. 4 speed is not efficient but 11 speed is just too much. At this point i am not sure if 3 clutches are too much or just right
08-23-2016, 04:56 PM
#2471
Yeah. 11 gears is a bit much. I think 7 is the ideal number... like in the RLX and MDX sport hybrid.
08-23-2016, 05:01 PM
#2472
This is exactly what I think as well. 7 speeds is ideal. Gear 1-5 for city speeds and 6/7 for highway overdrive gears. 9 speeds is entirely too much, 8 is not bad but I feel 7 is perfect. 11 is overkill and 3 clutches? Is Honda trying to go through their transmission teething issues again.
08-23-2016, 05:15 PM
#2473
Team Owner
I think auto transmission is the area Honda should play safe based on their track record..... 
08-23-2016, 05:20 PM
#2474
Team Owner
This is exactly what I think as well. 7 speeds is ideal. Gear 1-5 for city speeds and 6/7 for highway overdrive gears. 9 speeds is entirely too much, 8 is not bad but I feel 7 is perfect. 11 is overkill and 3 clutches? Is Honda trying to go through their transmission teething issues again.
11 speed? OMG haha
08-23-2016, 10:08 PM
#2475
What do you drive with an 8 speed zf? I had a dodge charger awd rental with that transmission and god it was clunky. It was like forever trying to downshift from 7/8 to 2/3 for acceleration.
08-24-2016, 07:16 AM
#2476
Three Wheelin'
I think it also depends on the programming. My friends have an IS 350 F Sport and the 8 speed in that is fantastic, I have never had an issue with the transmission in that. I can also say the same thing for my uncle's LS460.
Lexus did a great job with their 8 speed.
It'll be interesting to see what number car manufacturers actually stop adding more gears. 2035 Honda Accord with a 14 speed automatic transmission.
Lexus did a great job with their 8 speed.
It'll be interesting to see what number car manufacturers actually stop adding more gears. 2035 Honda Accord with a 14 speed automatic transmission.
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Curious3GTL (08-24-2016)
08-24-2016, 08:09 AM
#2478
Senior Moderator
I think it also depends on the programming. My friends have an IS 350 F Sport and the 8 speed in that is fantastic, I have never had an issue with the transmission in that. I can also say the same thing for my uncle's LS460.
Lexus did a great job with their 8 speed.
It'll be interesting to see what number car manufacturers actually stop adding more gears. 2035 Honda Accord with a 14 speed automatic transmission.
Lexus did a great job with their 8 speed.
It'll be interesting to see what number car manufacturers actually stop adding more gears. 2035 Honda Accord with a 14 speed automatic transmission.
As for the 10 speed in the Ford/Chevy (co developed) i think it will serve very well in the suv segment, they will be able to space gearing really well for payloads and overall MPG. .
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Curious3GTL (08-24-2016)
08-24-2016, 09:29 AM
#2479
Team Owner
I miss the days of only 6 gears, and a single clutch. 
08-24-2016, 09:31 AM
#2480
Team Owner
I find it hilarious Honda is patenting a 3 clutch, 11 gear transmission. Either that transmission will be incredibly large, or Honda keeps downsizing the gears inside, and whatever else. Based on their track record, going smaller seems like a long term disaster. The transmissions generally can't even handle 300hp/300lbft at the moment. Those numbers aren't even considered impressive by today's standards.