ELIN

That floating roof is still very hearse-like to me!

Tony Pac

As far as Germans don’t make this kind of EVs, we are fine you moved on and I doubt if Acura is trying to please you 😉

since you sold your TLX, Acura sales number jumped 2-3X joking Elin. Always nice to read your comments and commitments to Acura even though you sold your vehicle. 🙏🏽

ELIN

Always nice to read your comments despite not owning a present gen Acura.

Tony Pac

thanks for your contribution Elin. I know you always assist new and existing owners. That's the beauty of this community.

sonyfever

The ZDX exterior/interior have grown enough on me to sign up for the early access, but I still don't get why Acura needed to add all those wrinkles and crinkles to the rear, instead of preserving the IX look on Precision EV. Well, maybe it will look better in person, because somehow everyone who saw it in person said nice things. Wish the car has NACS charging port from the get-go.

The interior - today I sat in MDX and suddenly found the panel covering the AC vents looks almost identical to ZDX, except MDX one is piano black and the ZDX one looks cheap. I get the realistic expectation is to have ZDX interior on par with RDX, but until I see the car in person, I am not sure that is what we are seeing/getting.

mvl

Thanks for posting, always like to hear Ikeda as he gives such good insight to the theme of the brand. Two key things that stuck out to me were:

1) His comments on EVs clearly hinted that there are lots of issues, but Honda is relying on the massive capital in the economy going to fixing those issues. They are assuming it will be ready when their cars are.
2) He always mentioned autonomy in the same breath as an EV. There was an old article hinting that the Legend was always top of the line tech, and was being paused until they got L5 automation right. This makes feel even more confident in my prediction that the last 2021 Legend was the first L3 limited run production car, and the return of the Legend will be the first mass market Automation.

Great to hear Sonyfever that you've signed up to get the ZDX. Lots going for it.

I just had an experience last weekend that solidified my position that I'm not ready for an EV yet. We went on a 200-mile roadtrip (each way) in a single day to a family pool party. Wife wanted to go "in style" so we took the RDX PMC instead of the typical Hybrid MDX. We had to fill up gas twice (instead of the typical once with the Hybrid). First fill up there were no places to charge an EV. Second fillup there were 5 tesla chargers at 11pm at night, all full, while maybe 3 of the 12 gas stalls were used. I ran in to get takeout and the tesla people were still walking around or taking a nap waiting for their teslas to fill up, and of course lots of gas car people came and went. The family pool house was a high end second home, but still had no place to charge an EV, so I'd need a 500 mile range vehicle to feel comfortable using it for this trip, without waiting an hour at a fast charger, kids restless and complaining.

I could see an innovator in the next 5 years renting 100 mile electric portable recharge-while driving packs at highway rest areas, once things like solid state batteries make them light enough. This could be the stopgap EVs need, much like how today you rent wifi hotspots as a stopgap when traveling internationally. EVs already have in-town driving solved as they've achieved all-day commuter range, to allow you to live on home charging alone. Once they close the roadtrip gap then all they have left is pricing to fix, and with the understanding that EV cars are dirt cheap when it comes to parts and labor, and (outside of batteries) all the cost is going into patents which will eventually expire, I could see EVs becoming a $5000 commuter car in a decade - a price ICE can't touch.

zdxsr

Yup! Alway follow the money.

mvl

I can't believe I forgot to mention point 3, this is the key to understanding Acura's all-EV strategy.

3) Jon Ikeda closed by saying that in a couple years, the Integra Type-S will be by far the slowest vehicle on the road. My guess is that the ZDX TypeS will already out-perform the ITS in every track/street performance metric. Acura is "returning to its roots" and rebranding from luxury to performance because that will be the EV selling point among enthusiasts, nothing will come close to touching them performance-wise. The massive inconvenience of electric charging will remain, but my guess is that performance enthusiasts will overlook that the same way they overlook the inconvenience of a tiny back seat or a small trunk in a TLX today.

mvl

I could see an optimistic scenario possible for Honda's strategy, where it positions itself as the dependable fast follower to Tesla that delivers market share in the broader car market, much in the same way that Apple was the dependable fast-follower to to the PalmPilot.

- I bought my RSX 20 years ago because I wanted a dependable and fun alternative to a Ford Taurus. I can easily see the ZDX being the same dependable and fun alternative to a Model Y.
- Supercruise is a GM and Honda joint venture, and seems to have already achieved a position as best in the market, the only tech that is better and more reliable today than Tesla autopilot.
- And for the tech nerds who enjoy Tesla because it is basically a video game system on wheels, Honda has the best video game partner in the world in Afeela.
- Honda-branded cars then remain as the practical everyday car for the majority of the population, that absorbs innovations from the above divisions once they mature and the costs go down.

fiatlux

What makes you say Supercruise is a joint venture? I haven’t seen any sources that suggest Honda has had any involvement in it.

ELIN

The problem w/this scenario is that Palm as a company nevered pulled a Tesla and drastically reduce their pricing to increase market share and a stronger hold on the emerging EV community. As of right now, a Model Y is cheaper than an RDX after the Federal Tax credit is applied! The only EV Acura has is relatively overpriced and will struggle to put a dent in Tesla's mass market appeal (did you know Tesla offers referral benefits?).

Fun? Probably. Dependable? That remains to be seen on this GM platform. As others have said, how many techs will Acura dedicate to this car per dealership?

Supercruise is indeed an industry standout (but belongs only to GM). The only issue is will there be enough sales of the Ultium platform (ZDX, Lyriq, etc.) to have an impact on actual roads? This is akin to the old question, "if a tree falls in the middle of the forest but no one is around to see it, did it really fall?".

I won't get into PS vs XBOX because that is an unproductive conversation. Is it understood that Afeela is Acura's future and the ZDX is merely a stopgap to full EV? If so, say goodbye to Supercruise...

One way or another, Honda will definitely survive many more years in the car space. I'm not as positive for Acura because the love of SHAWD can only pay so many bills to keep the lights on.

mvl

Agree the "optimistic" scenario has to have may chips fall right to have a chance. A pessimistic scenario is that the US electricity grid can't grow fast enough to allow more than 5% a year BEV growth, Europe and China block or tarrif foreign companies from selling EV's profitably in their markets, and Honda is forced to try to sell its 2010-engineered ICE engines in US against competitors like Toyota/Ford/GM who continued take a multi-powertrain R&D approach and then had better engines available. Honda then has the albatross of all its EV developement debt with insufficient markets available to monetize it, resulting in bankrupcy or a firesale buyout like Chrysler had.

Tesla won't stand still like PalmPilot did, as long as Elon continues to pay attention to the company. While Tesla's priorities are more on cost reduction and AI-based autonomy, his interviews seem to point to Tesla's mission as forcing the industry to transform, not owning the industry. I suspect they may be bullied into licensing their technologies (battery, autonomy, etc) to 3rd parties if they get too far ahead, just like they were bullied into licensing their chargers. Honda and all legacy manufacturers still have unmatched strengths in factory/assembly efficiency, that Tesla is only temporarily able to price-outcompete by simplifying/decontenting parts and by being early to invest in battery production. I don't see that price advantage lasting as the legacies are on track to fill those gaps while adding their factory/assembly efficiency expertise by mid-decade, and bringing their own unique strengths (eg: Acura's performance product design and drive handling) on top of it.

Did look further and it looks like SuperCruise and Ultium were part of the package that Honda got to learn from as it "codeveloped" the Prologue and ZDX, but not a full Joint Venture (misread Cruise LLC, the venture where Honda is about a 10% owner). Honda did seem to be able to keep some of its learnings as it forked into its own LG chem battery system (eArchitecture) and seems HondaSensing 360 / Acurawatch 360 are similar forks where Honda got to keep some of the handsfree lane driving and handsfree lane changing knowledge.

sonyfever

Found this nice article about ZDX. The author was at the CVR event, so provided many insights about the car. Somehow he got the pricing info wrong, maybe he is talking about after-rebate prices.
https://www.slashgear.com/1374950/20...uv-first-look/

ELIN

Seriously. Who would buy an RDX A-Spec/Advance if they can get the base ZDX for the same price?

Tony Pac

It will give some competition to RDX for sure. Above all, ZDX will be do really well for Acura and give a hard time to other brands. ZDX looks awesome compared to most of the other EVs. If Acura focused on the performance aspect of it, then it's a sure shot hit!

mvl

I don't think the USA is at a point where a family can handle a primary car as a BEV yet. So as a primary car the RDX would beat out a ZDX for most. As a secondary car the ZDX would be the winner as a new purchase, though in my locale electricity costs so much that it isn't worth a trade.

I posted separately that I do think a surprise off-MMR tech update is coming to the RDX, maybe capturing the Google builtin and touchscreen of the ZDX, and the fully digital instrument cluster to permit nextGen Carplay announced for this fall. Otherwise there is no reason Acura wouldn't have taken the "free money" of re-labeling the July/August RDX production as a 2024 by now. They did that with the MDX and Integra base for 2024. And we know the TLX is getting an MMR and that's the only other 2024 not announced by now.

With an RDX tech upgrade it will be a much better gas alternative to the ZDX.

ELIN

Agreed that the US is not ready for EV to be primary (though you wouldn't know it when you drive around my neighborhood!). RDX will always have a buyer as long as Acura continues to make it.

Highly doubt any signficant change is coming to the final year of the 3G RDX. Acura needs to save the good stuff to coincide w/the release of the RDX Type S!

fiatlux

I think it largely depends on the area people live in. In most of the US I've gone to, EV infrastructure is pretty poor, and using a BEV as a primary vehicle is less than ideal. However, at least in (coastal) California, you can easily get by with a BEV as your sole vehicle, even if you don't have the ability to charge at home. If you live around LA, SF, or SD and you don't regularly do cross-country drives, it's a complete non-issue.

Tony Pac

Design and look are subjective but this guy is awesome when it comes to give you a different perspective. Also, I must say he is harsh and not easy to please!

I believe this said over and over again by many journalists and general public that Acura nailed the design of ZDX. It's not your typical EV design. Now I am hoping Acura add the performance component to the ZDX, so it will be the first mainstream EV Performance vehicle.


Enjoy!

con5tant

iTrader: (4)

Not feeling this design. It does not look anything like the previous generation, kind of looks like a hearst. Should have never used the ZDX name. Could have went with EDX instead.

fiatlux

Erectile Dysfunction X?

Tony Pac

Correct! if you are comparing it to the previous gen, then I am with you. As usual, Acura is always 10 years ahead of the game. When the ZDX came, it was too early for its time. I still believe it's a very unique car and it's sad that it did not work. But to be honest, I am not comparing this ZDX to the first gen at all.

They should have gone with another name in that case. But for current EV market, the new ZDX is a killer. The interior is clean with proper gauges, normal screen and dash. No EV minimalist BS! Once again, Acura is starting a new trend....build EV but make it look like a normal car also hoping that Acura is the first to bring performance EV to mainstream cars like they are doing for the past 35 years!

ELIN

I think I would wait for the next gen SS batteries, especially if it can get up to 800 miles on a charge!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/porsche-s...103000229.html

fiatlux

Is that why they still don't have an EV or PHEV? Because 10 years from now electrification will be on its way out?

mvl

Acura dedicated a production cycle at the PMC factory to a BEV/Hydrogen Hybrid CRV. That's certainly 10 years ahead of its time. But this time branding as a Honda.

ELIN

If this is a preview of what the we can look forward to from the ZDX, Acura is in a heap of trouble. Many components are shared, including Supercruise...

https://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/lyr...sumer-reviews/

Tony Pac

TBH, Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus do not believe in EV or PHEV. It's not that they are behind, they did not want to take that path but now market is pushing them. I am sure they will adjust to the market but this won't last long.

fiatlux

With that level of mental gymnastics, you'd be a shoe-in for the Canadian olympics team. "They're not behind, they just didn't want to do it"? It doesn't matter why a company is lagging behind; the fact is that they're still lagging behind. It's like a bad student saying "I'm not falling behind, I just didn't want to read the book but now the teacher is testing us on it".

mvl

Just watched a good debate on EVs from some industry experts. Curious if Honda is following others in keeping ICE plans alive in secret, to hide from government scrutiny.

https://www.youtube.com/live/LalDalvh3tY

sonyfever

I have not watched the video, but to be honest, all these EV doom day discussions are irrelevant as long as the west coast states insist on EV-only policy. Tesla is the living proof that EV can succeed with the support from these states. There is a significant EV market that the old guards need to grab, otherwise a significant chunk of the demand goes to Tesla. So either they invest upfront to stop losing market share, or they lose market share, the result is the same. Someone is going to get hurt with Tesla on full electrons plus source codes.

Knowing the history of Honda R&D, they always have something in the lab. Honda do not need to hide hybrid ICE R&D cost, because Honda still sell cars in countries where EV is not an option. If you are thinking about performance-oriented ICE, well Honda can easily hide the cost into various racing programs if they want to do so.

sonyfever

Regarding ZDX, if the early access represents the online ordering process in the future, I think Acura needs to streamline the flow and educate the salespeople much more.

The dealership I selected was pretty clueless about ZDX, the early-access terms say the final price is determined by the dealership, and even the deposit is made to the dealership. This is not the online model customers have in mind!

Tony Pac

We all need your beautiful presence here to educate us 🚀 thank you, Sir! Number one contributor at AZ! We didn’t know and now we all learnt that Acura is behind and lagging!

Your students at school are blessed to have you as their teacher

con5tant

iTrader: (4)

After watching a few videos on this, I seem to have come around and quite like the new ZDX (maybe it grew on me). I guess I was previously comparing it to the old generation, and in that sense it does not deliver imo. Still think that they should have chosen a different name and kept the ZDX to the previous generation as nothing about it is the same. Still think that the roof looks a bit too low.

Thing to note that this thing is huge. I thought the older ZDX was too long and this newer one is 5" longer.

ELIN

That's actually a good point. Why DID Acura decide to revive the ZDX name for this EV? It's not like the ZDX name was a nostalgic fan-favorite like the Integra...

mvl

My assumption is that they planned this to be the 4th gen RDX but then had to hedge their bets by keeping RDX alive as gas, and therefore needed a new name at the last minute.

ZDX is easy as they don't need to buy a trademark for it, and the Z = zero emissions was a good hint in the branding. While keeping the _DX = suv branding among loyalists.

ELIN

I don't know if I buy this explanation since this mysterious model was always part of Acura's leaked internal roadmap (anyone have this handy?) where every model co-existed.

sonyfever

Uncle Ikeda heard ya and explained why

mvl

My recollection of the leak was that ITS was there but not ZDX nor RDX-typeS. I think it only went to CY23. Did you see a newer leak?

I doubt Uncle's "coupe is a 5 seater" is real, sounds like a scripted "chief brand officer" response.

sonyfever

In case anyone wonders, the early access timeline looks like this:

- November for deposit.
- December for build.
- Delivery probably in Feb/March, considering all the holiday slowdowns.

Of course, it all hinges on that UAW negotiation..

sonyfever

Humm.. looks like Uncle could not convince you. Let try Uncle's friend: