Multiple Layers of Wax
#1
Living the Dream
Thread Starter
Multiple Layers of Wax
This may have been answered before but I couldn't find anything about it.
The next time I detail my car I can going to attempt to put two layers of wax on my car (for sand/salt that they use here in NC).
What is the process for doing this? I've heard it two ways
1. Apply wax, let it haze (dry) overnight or at least a few hours and apply second layer on top of dried layer and remove both once second layer dries
2. Apply wax, haze, remove then apply second layer.
Which is correct or at least best method for doing it?
thanks
The next time I detail my car I can going to attempt to put two layers of wax on my car (for sand/salt that they use here in NC).
What is the process for doing this? I've heard it two ways
1. Apply wax, let it haze (dry) overnight or at least a few hours and apply second layer on top of dried layer and remove both once second layer dries
2. Apply wax, haze, remove then apply second layer.
Which is correct or at least best method for doing it?
thanks
#2
I'm of the school of thought that layers of wax are a myth. In reality what you are doing is replacing one layer with another layer, not really adding layers.
Waxes, both paste and cream, contain solvents and these solvents, while not true cleaners, will degrade the first layer of wax applied. Your better option is to lay down a polymer and then wax over that 24 hours later.
Anthony
Waxes, both paste and cream, contain solvents and these solvents, while not true cleaners, will degrade the first layer of wax applied. Your better option is to lay down a polymer and then wax over that 24 hours later.
Anthony
#3
Former Sponsor
Originally Posted by Anthony Orosco
I'm of the school of thought that layers of wax are a myth. In reality what you are doing is replacing one layer with another layer, not really adding layers.
Waxes, both paste and cream, contain solvents and these solvents, while not true cleaners, will degrade the first layer of wax applied. Your better option is to lay down a polymer and then wax over that 24 hours later.
Anthony
Waxes, both paste and cream, contain solvents and these solvents, while not true cleaners, will degrade the first layer of wax applied. Your better option is to lay down a polymer and then wax over that 24 hours later.
Anthony
Just my $.02
#4
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Before a product can be 'layered' its carrier system (solvents) must outgas (vent) this pertains both to Carrnauba wax and Polymer sealants-
Layering:
I prefer the word ‘film’ as opposed to ‘layer’, a film more accurately describes a thinly applied sealant or wax, were as a layer tends to describe a thicker covering. Some specialty paint protection systems can have subsequent film added to increase protection and paint appearance, systems must cure or cross-link prior to application of subsequent coats. Depending on the product type, cure times vary from a few hours to days.
By applying another product on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) two to four cross-linked (cured) applications are usually considered optimum One thing that will negate the applied product density is lack of clarity, the base coat (that contains the vehicle’s colour) is covered / protected by a clear coat of urethane paint, which as well as providing protection is clear to enable the paint colour to show through and provide the colour with depth. Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be optically clear (transparent) otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted. One of the problems with ‘layering’ some polymers is that they tend to occlude (become less opaque) as the thickness increases
The carrier system allows the product to fill and level the paint film surface to produce a flat surface (this flat level surface is more pronounced with polymers due to their molecular alignment characteristics).
This level surface optimises the paint film surface's desired optical properties (i.e. surface reflectance, clarity, gloss, and depth of shine)
Wax- two coats to ensure even coverage, a wax cures (hardens when the solvents have evaporated ) usually 25-45 minuets then you can apply the second coat (ensure that there are no solvents left by doing a smear test otherwise the solvents in the second coat will remove the first) (See also Spit Shine)
Polymers- also contain a mineral or silicone oil, or solvent based carrier system (these may also be in the form of an oil / water emulsion) and by the nature of this product they need to vaporise / dissipate and then its needs to cross-link (this is time dependant (unless a catalyst is added) and is quite separate from the drying process
Solvents / oils provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.
Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product.
IMO the best method of 'layering' is "Spit Shining" not as lurid as it sounds
Knowledge - [We know a subject] [We know where to find information on it] the most highly valued; [knowledge that is both held and shared]
Layering:
I prefer the word ‘film’ as opposed to ‘layer’, a film more accurately describes a thinly applied sealant or wax, were as a layer tends to describe a thicker covering. Some specialty paint protection systems can have subsequent film added to increase protection and paint appearance, systems must cure or cross-link prior to application of subsequent coats. Depending on the product type, cure times vary from a few hours to days.
By applying another product on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) two to four cross-linked (cured) applications are usually considered optimum One thing that will negate the applied product density is lack of clarity, the base coat (that contains the vehicle’s colour) is covered / protected by a clear coat of urethane paint, which as well as providing protection is clear to enable the paint colour to show through and provide the colour with depth. Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be optically clear (transparent) otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted. One of the problems with ‘layering’ some polymers is that they tend to occlude (become less opaque) as the thickness increases
The carrier system allows the product to fill and level the paint film surface to produce a flat surface (this flat level surface is more pronounced with polymers due to their molecular alignment characteristics).
This level surface optimises the paint film surface's desired optical properties (i.e. surface reflectance, clarity, gloss, and depth of shine)
Wax- two coats to ensure even coverage, a wax cures (hardens when the solvents have evaporated ) usually 25-45 minuets then you can apply the second coat (ensure that there are no solvents left by doing a smear test otherwise the solvents in the second coat will remove the first) (See also Spit Shine)
Polymers- also contain a mineral or silicone oil, or solvent based carrier system (these may also be in the form of an oil / water emulsion) and by the nature of this product they need to vaporise / dissipate and then its needs to cross-link (this is time dependant (unless a catalyst is added) and is quite separate from the drying process
Solvents / oils provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.
Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product.
IMO the best method of 'layering' is "Spit Shining" not as lurid as it sounds
Knowledge - [We know a subject] [We know where to find information on it] the most highly valued; [knowledge that is both held and shared]
#5
Found this one awhile back and thought I'd share this info. One of the questions in the Meguiars FAQ was "Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered?". The following is the response and pretty sure it was Mike Phillips.
Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.
Layerable waxes
A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.
Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.
There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.
The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)
While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.
The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,
A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.
That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.
At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.
Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer".
If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:
2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another
Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.
You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with.
If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,
Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)
Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.
Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.
Layerable waxes
A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.
Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.
There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.
The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)
While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.
The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,
A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.
That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.
At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.
Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer".
If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:
2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another
Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.
You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with.
If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,
Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)
Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.
Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.
#6
Living the Dream
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies guys. It sounds like, unless I have some specific wax (polymer, sealant) types that layering is #1 not do-able & #2 not all that necessary.
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