Winterwaves

It's a simple thing, but I've always wondered about this: Everyone (including my Zaino instructions) says to wash the car with Dawn first to strip off old wax and prep the car. But no one gives any recommendations as to how much Dawn to use. How much Dawn should I use per gallon of water?

I used to wash my old car occassionally with Dawn and never really even thought about an ideal recipe for the solution. But now with my new TSX, I'd like to be more precise about it and do it right. Any recommendations?

ZeroPSI

I always thought you were never suppose to wash a car with dish soap.

BEETROOT

^ You wash with dish soap before using a synthetic wax, to get all caranuba and other crap off there.

I don't think it really matters how much. I just squeeze the bottle for about 3 seconds into the bucket.

CLpower

you should actually clay instead of using Dawn IMO

Winterwaves

For normal washing, that's true. I plan to use Zaino Z-7 or Armor All Car Wash Concentrate for that. But to prep for the first wax job with Zaino, I'm going to use Dawn.

I'm not sure if I'm overanalyzing it, but I was just thinking logically: If Dawn is strong enough to cut through the existing car wax, and it removes grease, and if things that are high in alkaline content (i.e. Dawn) have the potential to evenntually eat into the clear coat, then it would seem to follow that using too high of a ratio of Dawn-to-water in your mix might increase the risk of damaging the car.

Maybe it's nothing to worry about...I just wondered, though.

BEETROOT

I think that would have to do a lot more with how long you leave the soap on the car, not the amount of soap in your water (if that can happen at all).

Winterwaves

Yeah, probably. Although I figured that the greater the Dawn-to-water ratio was in my mix, the less time I should leave it on the car.

Of course, during a car wash, the Dawn is not left on the car for any real length of time anyway -- I rinse it off pretty much immediately -- so maybe the Dawn-to-water ratio is a non-factor.

Again, I just wondered about it. I just thought it was curious that nothing I've read actually spells it out for you. I guess that means that it doesn't really matter.

exceldetail

I dont see the logic in it whatsoever. Any decent polish will remove previously applied sealants anyway, why risk such a high alkaline product robbing oils in vinyl and rubber seals? This whole Dawn thing, IMO is ludicrous.

Winterwaves

I dunno...I'm just trying to follow the recommended Zaino process. Washing with Dawn to strip the existing wax seems OK to me, for just a very occassional (maybe twice a year) thing.

TOGWT

I agree and so do the makers Procter & Camble. IMO Wash with Z-7 and then use Z-PC Fusion

Washing-up Liquids:
Detergents type washing-up liquids should not be used on a regular basis for vehicles bodywork as their concentrated detergent soaps and usually high sodium / alkaline content will emulsify, breakdown and leach out oils naturally found in your paint, and also any oils you have applied in the way of a polish or glaze. Most polymer sealants, synthetic and natural waxes are detergent resistant, so a dishwashing detergent like Dawn will not remove them.

Generally avoid the use of household cleaning products for automotive detailing as they are formulated for an entirely different type of cleaning. “Your car surface and the dirt that gets on it are a lot different from the food soils and dishes that dishwashing liquids clean effectively. We don't recommend them for cleaning your car”. Proctor and Gamble (See also Detergents)
JonM

Winterwaves

OK, so I should ignore the Zaino instructions (and the Zaino 101 threads here) and just start out washing with Z-7? (I'll use Z-2, Z-6 and Z-8 instead of Z-PC Fusion because I don't have swirl marks yet).

In other words, just put the Zaino on over the existing wax coat (after washing with Z-7)? That's your advice, then?

Winterwaves

OK, I've been reading more past threads. It seems that the Dawn thing has almost been a religious war. I saw several posts that advocated a 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and water solution instead of Dawn. Mostly advocated by "Joerockt." That sounds harsh to me too, but maybe less harsh than Dawn.

I just want to make sure I'm starting out on the right foot with my gorgeous new car.

Vicman17

I agree with above.

However, if you really do feel inclined, remember that very little Dawn soap goes a long way and causes a lot of suds that you can't probably remove with just one rinse.

Also remember that it dries the crap out of rubber and plastic mouldings, so be extra careful.

Winterwaves

I planned to clay anyway, but according to Zaino, that was Step 2, after washing with Dawn.

Now I don't know exactly what approach I'll take. The more I think about it, the more it seems that 50/50 isopropyl with water would also dry the crap out of moulding.

joerockt

I wipe all my exterior moulding with 303 protectant. UV rays would do more damage anyway then a few seconds of alcohol on them...

Winterwaves

Thanks, will do. Despite our little altercation in that other thread, I do appreciate the advice you've given me here. I'll readily admit I'm somewhat new to detailing (at least, I'm new to detailing at this level and I'm new to the current detailing products out there, as the last time I did any semi-serious detailing of a car was about 20 years ago). So now I feel pretty confident going through the whole Zaino process, starting with the 50/50 alcohol solution for the wash. Now I just need to find the time!! Maybe this weekend.

TOGWT

If you have a perfect finish (no surface imperfections) I would recommend 1:1 isopropyl Alcohol, if like most of us (including me) you do have surface imperfections then use Z-PC Fusion Dual Action Paint Cleaner Swirl Remover
JonM

joerockt

Yea, I think you took it a bit personally, and thats fine. I've only been hardcore detailing myself for about 2 years and I've been using a PC7424 for almost a year now.

So, I dont claim to know everything, but I have read and learned from the professionals here and on autoipa. They know what works and what dosent.

bradykp

somewhere on this board was a reference to an article that talked about dawn and car soap. anyone know what i'm talking about? i cant find it by searching.

Homer2

Each and every customer car I have done, for the last 5 years - that was not already a Zaino car has been dawn washed. 2-3 seconds of a squirt of dawn in the wash bucket and away I go.

Now that Z-PC is here, I would not bother with Dawn if the customer did not want me to. I would simply zaino wash (or any other car wash for that matter) as the Z-pc will end up removing everything I want removed anyways.

Acura's - to Vettes - to Porsches - no one has compained that the seals have changed or dried out yet. In fact, my most regular customer is a black on black Corvette - twice a year - and he swears the car looks newer than the last time I did it for him. Each time.

If you are seriously concerned about potential drying out effects on rubber etc, then maybe the car should not be on the road in the first place. As someone else stated - UV will damage it more than one wash with Dawn could. Road salt, bird crap, bad dressing products . . .

Once again though - go with what makes you feel comfortable, and what gives you the results you like.

CLpower

Do what you do, but no way in hell would I ever put Dawn on a customers car, then again, I wouldn't put zaino on them either unless they ask for it

exceldetail

Took the words right out of my mouth.........Matter of fact, a step further, If they wanted Zaino, I would find someone else to do the job.....

West6MT

I wouldnt put dawn on my car, and pro detailers I have talked too wouldnt do it either. Its made for dishes, not your car,........... and it really is not necessary as others have pointed out.

Homer2

Well, good thing you are not the one doing mine (or my customers cars then). I suspect they would be upset by the results if I tried some inferior product. I like to provide the service they pay so handsomely for - as well as the products they request.

I prefer to put Zaino on them, that way I only have to do them twice a year at the MOST!

joerockt

Here we go...

Hawhyen51

Deja Vu! This should be very interesting? entertaining? whatever!

ttliang

clay vs paint cleaner vs scratchX (or similar stuff like zaino's). which is better? what's the difference result wise? i thought they all clean and strip all old wax and dirt. polish and wax after that? Thanks.

vasu

paint cleaners and scratchX are both types of polish, with "pre-wax cleaners" being a really fine grit and something like ScratchX being a more course grit for getting rid of surface swirls, scuffs, scratches, etc .. so clay, then polish, then seal (zaino, klasse, etc)


I really like those Sonus polishes. Wash, clay, Sonus SFX-2 with my porter cable, and then seal

-vasu

ttliang

Thanks. is a random orbital less effective than a circular on swirl? i heard you have to be careful with circular due to friction/heat etc if you don't know what u are doing. that's why i got an orbital. it's not opened yet. my swirl is pretty visible now. should i return the orbital for a circular? Thanks.

vasu

keep the random orbital. just use an appropriate polish and polishing pad. swirls are easy to remove with an orbital ... scratches that catch a finger nail are a different matter

-vasu

Homer2

Relax . .. we're goin nowhere in this one . ..

evolpe

I love how all you guys know what's superior. How many of you detailers have molecular science degrees and know what's really going on. How do you know the product really does have a polymer bond with the clearcoat? YOU ALL DON'T. Until I see someone's PhD from MIT in molecular science, don't tell me about the alkaline properties or it's abrasiveness. If you've had bad results with a product, so be it. Just stop trying to be smarter than you are.

joerockt

A little sand in your vag this morning?

You think maybe P&G has a few molecular scientists?

jlukja

Wow, an almost year-old thread gets dug up just for that. :shakehead

stogie1020

La-Dies and Gentlemen...

evolpe

I realized it was a year old after I posted. My bad. But anyways, so yeah, a P&G scientist says that and I do happen to agree, you shouldn't use dawn on an application it wasn't designed for. My post was in reference to the people who like to trash one product over another. It's personal preference and unless you can prove to me one's molecularly superior, ease up on the debate. It's rediculous. Actually, if you can find that one is molecularly superior, don't bother proving it to me because I don't really care.

evolpe

The sand in my vag is because this weekend my fantasy football team lost the chapionship by one point. Guess who the other team had........ LT! But seriously, some people like certain products and other people like others. Perhaps using the PC to remove swirls is better than filling them with Z-5. The problem is many people don't have experience using a PC and don't want to experiment on their $34,000 car. They'd rather fill it so it looks good and then if they have the extra money perhaps pay a pro later on. Different strokes for different folks. I used to be a Meg's guy and would clay my car and use their 3 step polish, wax,..... blah blah blah.... But I just got an '06 TL with barely any imperfections and have no need to use anything other than a polish. But I guess I'm the one who took this off topic, when it was originally about using Dawn. I agree that the clay bar will do what the Dawn is being advertised to do. Sorry for going on a tangent, I'm just really bored here at work.

TOGWT

Washing-up Liquids (Detergent):
Washing up liquid is formulated to be used with hot water as opposed to warm/cold water that is normally used to wash the car’s paint surface, hot water causes the detergents to mix, without heat a fine layer of alkaline soap remains on the paint surface. Washing-up liquids should not be used on a regular basis for vehicles bodywork as the MSDS indicates that this product contains sodium hydroxide, which is highly alkaline (pH 13) the same ingredient used in engine degreasers to chemically ‘burn’ hydrocarbon oils and grease from engine surfaces (sodium hydroxide) will severely stain aluminum, magnesium, etc. It will emulsify, breakdown and leach out oils naturally found in your paint, and also any oils you have applied in the way of a polish or glaze.

Be careful what you use on a paint surface; a polyurethane paint (high solid, low solvent clear coats) can absorb moisture; as water molecules are smaller than a cross-linked clear coats molecule. So be aware of the contents in car wash liquids or concentrates, sealant and waxes (i.e. low pH acids, high pH alkaline, Dimethal (DMS) silicones or solvents that contain butyl, heptanes, and xylene or hydrocarbon aliphatic solvents.
(See also MSDS, Potential of Hydrogen (pH)

Generally avoid the use of household cleaning products for automotive detailing as they are formulated for an entirely different type of cleaning. Quote – “Your car surface and the dirt that gets on it are a lot different from the food soils and dishes that dishwashing liquids clean effectively. We don't recommend them for cleaning your car”. Proctor and Gamble (See also Detergents)

Alternative products- DuPont Prepsol II, Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA) Klasse All-In-One, Z-PC Fusion Dual Action Paint Cleaner


FWIW-I have a Chemical Engineering degree and thirty plus years in the Petro-Chemical / Hydrocarbon industry and I do not recommend you use Dawn for all the above reasons.

{Knowledge; don't ever stop learning; [always keeping an open mind]

evolpe

My comment was less about Dawn and more about the whole Zaino thing. I clearly stated I agree another method should be used. In this case, a clay bar since the Zaino process is already incorporating the bar. I'm glad to see you do know what you're talking about. Sometimes in these forums you get a feeling people are giving advice based on what they've read off the back of the box or off some internet site which can clearly be biased and uninformed. With such controversy or maybe a better word is ignorance by the general public on this topic, why doesn't a company develop a formula that can remove wax but isn't abrasive. For example, I don't need to use anything abrasive on my paint to remove swirls because I don't have any yet. What hasn't anything been developed that's harsh enough to remove the wax but won't damage the paint or rubber seals....... Or is there something out there that I'm not aware of?

joerockt

Klasse AIO would be the product you would want. Its a cleaner polish that has no abrasives.

However, I didnt perform a chemical analysis, so all I have to go on is whats printed on the back of the bottle Hope thats good enough for you.