Should I Take This Deal, Or Re-negotiate?
09-08-2017, 06:57 AM
#1
Should I Take This Deal, Or Re-negotiate?
Cross-post, I found a '07 Acura TL Type-S (73k miles) online, since the car is about 2 hours away from me. It's newly listed at the dealership so they say "they haven't serviced it and taken pictures" to update their inventory photos yet. It's listed at $11,899 currently, and I've told them I'd buy it as soon as possible if they were able to knock off 20.5% off their price leaving it at $9459, I also told them I negotiated with another dealer for the same car with a few differences (~20k more miles, better looking wheels, better color, and a $10,795 sticker price).
Their salesmen got back to me with an initial counter-offer of ~$9500+ AS IS ($10,600 OTD), so **no** service work and he says it needs new tires. I then asked him what needed to be done service wise other than replacing the tires, after a short lull he got back to me and said the mechanic said that
-Oil life is at 80%
-No other indicators of work needed are showing
-AC & heat both work
-Nav works
Should I re-negotiate with this dealer, or take it? I had initially made the offer under the impression that everything had already been done. I think I know the answer to this question, but just wanted to gauge the opinions of other redditors who have had more experience buying cars than me. What else should I ask?
[The Car](Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet)
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
***Since it was a new listing, they didn't have better photos so it was taken by the internet sales woman.***
Their salesmen got back to me with an initial counter-offer of ~$9500+ AS IS ($10,600 OTD), so **no** service work and he says it needs new tires. I then asked him what needed to be done service wise other than replacing the tires, after a short lull he got back to me and said the mechanic said that
-Oil life is at 80%
-No other indicators of work needed are showing
-AC & heat both work
-Nav works
Should I re-negotiate with this dealer, or take it? I had initially made the offer under the impression that everything had already been done. I think I know the answer to this question, but just wanted to gauge the opinions of other redditors who have had more experience buying cars than me. What else should I ask?
[The Car](Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet)
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
***Since it was a new listing, they didn't have better photos so it was taken by the internet sales woman.***
09-08-2017, 07:13 AM
#2
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
iTrader: (1)
1st thing, why is it missing the type-s wheels?
2nd, 90% of salesmen have no idea what a vehicle really needs and if it's coming from a Dodge dealership his "mechanic" could tell you the most obvious things needed. They aren't going to spend money on it because they picked it up either on a trade it or auction. To maximize profit, they detail the vehicle (most don't bother doing that) and sell it. Some states require items that are unsafe to be repaired before selling a vehicle, but that cuts into profits.
Lastly,
By looking at those photos, I can tell you it needs some TLC and it wasn't taken care of. For me, that alone say that vehicle wasn't maintained and needs additional work. For it to have base model wheels with smoked tires says it all. I would pass, spend a bit more on a cleaner and well taken care of TL-S.
2nd, 90% of salesmen have no idea what a vehicle really needs and if it's coming from a Dodge dealership his "mechanic" could tell you the most obvious things needed. They aren't going to spend money on it because they picked it up either on a trade it or auction. To maximize profit, they detail the vehicle (most don't bother doing that) and sell it. Some states require items that are unsafe to be repaired before selling a vehicle, but that cuts into profits.
Lastly,
By looking at those photos, I can tell you it needs some TLC and it wasn't taken care of. For me, that alone say that vehicle wasn't maintained and needs additional work. For it to have base model wheels with smoked tires says it all. I would pass, spend a bit more on a cleaner and well taken care of TL-S.
Last edited by 04WDPSeDaN; 09-08-2017 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Correction, its a dodge dealership
09-08-2017, 07:26 AM
#3
Senior Moderator
Pass
09-08-2017, 07:44 AM
#4
1st thing, why is it missing the type-s wheels?
2nd, 90% of salesmen have no idea what a vehicle really needs and if it's coming from a Dodge dealership his "mechanic" could tell you the most obvious things needed. They aren't going to spend money on it because they picked it up either on a trade it or auction. To maximize profit, they detail the vehicle (most don't bother doing that) and sell it. Some states require items that are unsafe to be repaired before selling a vehicle, but that cuts into profits.
Lastly,
By looking at those photos, I can tell you it needs some TLC and it wasn't taken care of. For me, that alone say that vehicle wasn't maintained and needs additional work. For it to have base model wheels with smoked tires says it all. I would pass, spend a bit more on a cleaner and well taken care of TL-S.
2nd, 90% of salesmen have no idea what a vehicle really needs and if it's coming from a Dodge dealership his "mechanic" could tell you the most obvious things needed. They aren't going to spend money on it because they picked it up either on a trade it or auction. To maximize profit, they detail the vehicle (most don't bother doing that) and sell it. Some states require items that are unsafe to be repaired before selling a vehicle, but that cuts into profits.
Lastly,
By looking at those photos, I can tell you it needs some TLC and it wasn't taken care of. For me, that alone say that vehicle wasn't maintained and needs additional work. For it to have base model wheels with smoked tires says it all. I would pass, spend a bit more on a cleaner and well taken care of TL-S.
Yeah, I was going to take his mechanics inspection with a grain of salt, and was looking for an independent mechanic in that area for a pre-purchase inspection if I was going to buy.
I ran the vin with vehiclehistory and it wasn't in an accident at least, but a vin check with mycarfax to check the service history only showed a lone oil change in '07.
Thanks for your input, at 70k miles and at 9.5k I should've known it was too good to be true.
09-08-2017, 07:55 AM
#5
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
iTrader: (1)
Salesman never addressed the base wheels, only explanation I can think of is original owner liked the originals better?
Yeah, I was going to take his mechanics inspection with a grain of salt, and was looking for an independent mechanic in that area for a pre-purchase inspection if I was going to buy.
I ran the vin with vehiclehistory and it wasn't in an accident at least, but a vin check with mycarfax to check the service history only showed a lone oil change in '07.
Thanks for your input, at 70k miles and at 9.5k I should've known it was too good to be true.
Yeah, I was going to take his mechanics inspection with a grain of salt, and was looking for an independent mechanic in that area for a pre-purchase inspection if I was going to buy.
I ran the vin with vehiclehistory and it wasn't in an accident at least, but a vin check with mycarfax to check the service history only showed a lone oil change in '07.
Thanks for your input, at 70k miles and at 9.5k I should've known it was too good to be true.
I said it out of experience from working in the industry for over 12 years. Carfax is a good indicator on things but it's always trusting. For example, my TL has been serviced just a few times at the dealership, but I've done a majority of the work myself or the private shop I use. It wouldn't show on the carfax, but I have a binder full of service history. Chances are, the previous owner either had his wheels stolen or sold them because for whatever reason, the type-s wheels are in hot demand and or stolen often. Just the condition of the exterior, interior and wrong wheels that need tires, I'd pass in a heart beat. Remember, in the long run, its better to invest more on a cleaner vehicle vs. buying one thats 2-3K cheaper but needs 3-5K worth of work. I know it's harder and harder to find a real clean, well kept 3rd gen TL. They are out there, but you'll pay a higher price. Check the black market on this site. Once in a while a rare gem pops up.
09-08-2017, 09:34 AM
#6
I said it out of experience from working in the industry for over 12 years. Carfax is a good indicator on things but it's always trusting. For example, my TL has been serviced just a few times at the dealership, but I've done a majority of the work myself or the private shop I use. It wouldn't show on the carfax, but I have a binder full of service history. Chances are, the previous owner either had his wheels stolen or sold them because for whatever reason, the type-s wheels are in hot demand and or stolen often. Just the condition of the exterior, interior and wrong wheels that need tires, I'd pass in a heart beat. Remember, in the long run, its better to invest more on a cleaner vehicle vs. buying one thats 2-3K cheaper but needs 3-5K worth of work. I know it's harder and harder to find a real clean, well kept 3rd gen TL. They are out there, but you'll pay a higher price. Check the black market on this site. Once in a while a rare gem pops up.
https://imgur.com/a/ENNjY
09-08-2017, 09:43 AM
#7
Racer
Additionally to 04DP's point, CarFax is only going to show what was reported. A car can be in an accident and repaired privately. An Autocheck will often times show information a CarFax won't and vice versa. I had a co-worker who was sold a clean CarFax ILX. He was moving out of the country, so was looking to sell the car. He took it to CarMax to see what he could get and they told him it had frame damage. CarMax ran an AutoCheck which showed the car was sold at auction with structural damage announced. The CarFax reflected none of that. He took the car back to the shady dealership that sold him the car and they gave him 95% of his money back, but he still got screwed and could have sued the dealershiop for non-disclosure auto fraud, but he didn't want the hassle. He got his money, so he was happy.
I wouldn't buy this car. It looks in a state of disrepair. The pictures taken are conveniently missing all indication that the car is a true Type S on the interior. The bottom of the steering wheel will have Type S and the seat headrests will as well. The door cards are the only indicator, as far as I can tell. If it has the 3.5L engine, then that would be hard to fake, but, again, I wouldn't buy this car.
Also factor in, this car is 10 years old. It will need work. It will be approaching the timing belt service interval soon, which if you're paying to have done is approx. $700. The dealer telling you no indicators of needing other maintenance is probably just, "No check engine light, she's good to go!" New tires will run you at least $700 and you don't want to cheap out on tires. The oil life indicator can be reset at any time, so that's not really a true indicator of the condition of the oil either.
These cars have plenty of common issues and a lot of them will run you a good amount of money. I could go through the list of parts that have failed and/or that I have had to replace on mine, but I'll spare the details. I've probably spent $1500 on parts alone in the 10 months I've owned my 06 TL with 113k miles. I bought it at 100,500 miles. If I had to do it again, I'd probably never buy another TL. I really only want a Type S 6-speed. They'll more than likely appreciate over time. The autos will all die quick deaths in the hands of their 5th owners.
I wouldn't buy this car. It looks in a state of disrepair. The pictures taken are conveniently missing all indication that the car is a true Type S on the interior. The bottom of the steering wheel will have Type S and the seat headrests will as well. The door cards are the only indicator, as far as I can tell. If it has the 3.5L engine, then that would be hard to fake, but, again, I wouldn't buy this car.
Also factor in, this car is 10 years old. It will need work. It will be approaching the timing belt service interval soon, which if you're paying to have done is approx. $700. The dealer telling you no indicators of needing other maintenance is probably just, "No check engine light, she's good to go!" New tires will run you at least $700 and you don't want to cheap out on tires. The oil life indicator can be reset at any time, so that's not really a true indicator of the condition of the oil either.
These cars have plenty of common issues and a lot of them will run you a good amount of money. I could go through the list of parts that have failed and/or that I have had to replace on mine, but I'll spare the details. I've probably spent $1500 on parts alone in the 10 months I've owned my 06 TL with 113k miles. I bought it at 100,500 miles. If I had to do it again, I'd probably never buy another TL. I really only want a Type S 6-speed. They'll more than likely appreciate over time. The autos will all die quick deaths in the hands of their 5th owners.
Last edited by NoTLoud; 09-08-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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09-08-2017, 09:51 AM
#8
Additionally to 04DP's point, CarFax is only going to show what was reported. A car can be in an accident and repaired privately. An Autocheck will often times show information a CarFax won't and vice versa. I had a co-worker who was sold a clean CarFax ILX. He was moving out of the country, so was looking to sell the car. He took it to CarMax to see what he could get and they told him it had frame damage. CarMax ran an AutoCheck which showed the car was sold at auction with structural damage announced. The CarFax reflected none of that. He took the car back to the shady dealership that sold him the car and they gave him 95% of his money back, but he still got screwed and could have sued the dealershiop for non-disclosure auto fraud, but he didn't want the hassle. He got his money, so he was happy.
I wouldn't buy this car. It looks in a state of disrepair. The pictures taken are conveniently missing all indication that the car is a true Type S on the interior. The bottom of the steering wheel will have Type S and the seat headrests will as well. The door cards are the only indicator, as far as I can tell. If it has the 3.5L engine, then that would be hard to fake, but, again, I wouldn't buy this car.
Also factor in, this car is 10 years old. It will need work. It will be approaching the timing belt service interval soon, which if you're paying to have done is approx. $700. The dealer telling you no indicators of needing other maintenance is probably just, "No check engine light, she's good to go!" New tires will run you at least $700 and you don't want to cheap out on tires. The oil life indicator can be reset at any time, so that's not really a true indicator of the condition of the oil either.
These cars have plenty of common issues and a lot of them will run you a good amount of money. I could go through the list of parts that have failed and/or that I have had to replace on mine, but I'll spare the details. I've probably spent $1500 on parts alone in the 10 months I've owned my 06 TL with 113k miles. I bought it at 100,500 miles. If I had to do it again, I'd probably never buy another TL. I really only want a Type S 6-speed. They'll more than likely appreciate over time. The autos will all die quick deaths in the hands of their 5th owners.
I wouldn't buy this car. It looks in a state of disrepair. The pictures taken are conveniently missing all indication that the car is a true Type S on the interior. The bottom of the steering wheel will have Type S and the seat headrests will as well. The door cards are the only indicator, as far as I can tell. If it has the 3.5L engine, then that would be hard to fake, but, again, I wouldn't buy this car.
Also factor in, this car is 10 years old. It will need work. It will be approaching the timing belt service interval soon, which if you're paying to have done is approx. $700. The dealer telling you no indicators of needing other maintenance is probably just, "No check engine light, she's good to go!" New tires will run you at least $700 and you don't want to cheap out on tires. The oil life indicator can be reset at any time, so that's not really a true indicator of the condition of the oil either.
These cars have plenty of common issues and a lot of them will run you a good amount of money. I could go through the list of parts that have failed and/or that I have had to replace on mine, but I'll spare the details. I've probably spent $1500 on parts alone in the 10 months I've owned my 06 TL with 113k miles. I bought it at 100,500 miles. If I had to do it again, I'd probably never buy another TL. I really only want a Type S 6-speed. They'll more than likely appreciate over time. The autos will all die quick deaths in the hands of their 5th owners.
09-08-2017, 10:29 AM
#9
Racer
I should rescind my previous statement. These are good cars, just be patient and find one that has a comprehensive service history and that is in good condition. I was in a time crunch and the TL I bought popped up right in time. Cosmetically, my car is in pretty damn good shape. People who don't know the car is 11 years old are surprised when I tell them it is. It needs a couple items, but overall, it's decent. I have lowered the car and a couple of the issues I am dealing with are more than likely attributed to that.
The Honda automatic V6 transmission have some issues that you need to be mindful of. The 07 and 08 TL's are a little more robust than the 04 to 06 models. The compliance bushings like to tear on the lower control arms. The front and side engine mounts will go anywhere from 70 to 100k miles, more often than not. The Hands Free Link likes to fail and cause parasitic draw on the battery, killing it. Again, keep in mind, these cars are anywhere from 9 to 13 years old, so they will all need a little TLC. Most likely, any one you get will always have some little minor maintenance issue. Pretty much any car this age will. Just factor that in to the price you end up paying for one. When the car is driving like it should, it is fun to drive and is very comfortable for long highway drives.
I didn't mean to discourage you from buying one. I personally wouldn't buy the one you are looking at. You are doing the right thing posting here. Continue looking and pass on this car. Go check it out, see what you don't like/what may be wrong, and keep that in mind for when you drive/look at the next one.
The Honda automatic V6 transmission have some issues that you need to be mindful of. The 07 and 08 TL's are a little more robust than the 04 to 06 models. The compliance bushings like to tear on the lower control arms. The front and side engine mounts will go anywhere from 70 to 100k miles, more often than not. The Hands Free Link likes to fail and cause parasitic draw on the battery, killing it. Again, keep in mind, these cars are anywhere from 9 to 13 years old, so they will all need a little TLC. Most likely, any one you get will always have some little minor maintenance issue. Pretty much any car this age will. Just factor that in to the price you end up paying for one. When the car is driving like it should, it is fun to drive and is very comfortable for long highway drives.
I didn't mean to discourage you from buying one. I personally wouldn't buy the one you are looking at. You are doing the right thing posting here. Continue looking and pass on this car. Go check it out, see what you don't like/what may be wrong, and keep that in mind for when you drive/look at the next one.
09-08-2017, 11:37 AM
#10
Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better because I was kind of set on an Acura. Just wasn't sure if it was going to be a TSX or the TL.
I've heard of the transmissions on the automatic variant of the 07-08 had some issues, but I also heard that they had rectified it so I dont know who to believe here.
Yeah, I was planning on just making a visit this weekend while they were closed to just have a look at it at least.
I've heard of the transmissions on the automatic variant of the 07-08 had some issues, but I also heard that they had rectified it so I dont know who to believe here.
Yeah, I was planning on just making a visit this weekend while they were closed to just have a look at it at least.
09-08-2017, 11:47 AM
#11
Senior Moderator
Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better because I was kind of set on an Acura. Just wasn't sure if it was going to be a TSX or the TL.
I've heard of the transmissions on the automatic variant of the 04-06 had some issues, but I also heard that they had rectified it so I dont know who to believe here.
t.
I've heard of the transmissions on the automatic variant of the 04-06 had some issues, but I also heard that they had rectified it so I dont know who to believe here.
t.
09-08-2017, 12:45 PM
#13
Racer
All of the transmission are prone to failure, but the risk can be greatly mitigated with proper preventative maintenance. Plenty of people get 200k or higher on the original transmission. The pressure switches and 3x3 tranny fluid drain and refill apply to all years. The issue with failure is a combination of the switches getting out of tolerance and the friction modifiers in the tranny fluid diminishing. When those pressure switches start to go, your clutch packs are rubbing up against each other for longer, creating excessive heat build up. The combination of this and your transmission fluid having diminished friction modifiers, cause the clutch packs to start slipping when they go to engage each other. The excessive heat build up due to the clutch packs slipping is what causes premature failure.
While test driving these cars, pay close attention to when the car shifts. Once you feel it shift, pay close attention to how long it takes between engaging the next gear. Before I did my pressure switches, I would notice a half second/second delay between when the shift started and actual engagement of the next gear. You want that to happen almost instantly. If the car seems to hang, just be very careful with your purchase. Do not be thrown off by the transition from reverse to drive, this is going to have a delay on these cars. Usually a second to a second and a half. It's just a quirk of these transmissions, from all that I have read.
Other than the transmission, watch out for the other 3 items I mentioned: lower control arm compliance bushings (tears), engine mounts (tearing/torn, front and side especially), and the HFL saying "Booting Up" when the car is on.
Inspect all of the panel gaps. Look for any inconsistencies, as these are signs of accident damage. Look under the car for structural and obvious frame damage, as well as rust. When driving the car, make sure it tracks straight and feels solid at highway speeds.
If you are looking at one hovering around 100k miles, make sure to find out if the timing belt service was done.
That's most of the items I can think of.
While test driving these cars, pay close attention to when the car shifts. Once you feel it shift, pay close attention to how long it takes between engaging the next gear. Before I did my pressure switches, I would notice a half second/second delay between when the shift started and actual engagement of the next gear. You want that to happen almost instantly. If the car seems to hang, just be very careful with your purchase. Do not be thrown off by the transition from reverse to drive, this is going to have a delay on these cars. Usually a second to a second and a half. It's just a quirk of these transmissions, from all that I have read.
Other than the transmission, watch out for the other 3 items I mentioned: lower control arm compliance bushings (tears), engine mounts (tearing/torn, front and side especially), and the HFL saying "Booting Up" when the car is on.
Inspect all of the panel gaps. Look for any inconsistencies, as these are signs of accident damage. Look under the car for structural and obvious frame damage, as well as rust. When driving the car, make sure it tracks straight and feels solid at highway speeds.
If you are looking at one hovering around 100k miles, make sure to find out if the timing belt service was done.
That's most of the items I can think of.
09-08-2017, 01:40 PM
#14
Wow, super helpful. I test drove an 07 tsx with that was slow to shift when I tested the acceleration, granted it had 140k miles on it, but that kind of was a red flag for me.
09-08-2017, 09:03 PM
#17
Yeah, it is kind of weird. At first I had doubts about it even being a Type-S since most of the pictures conveniently left out the Type-S logo on the head rests, and no engine shots, but then I saw the paddle shifters.
09-08-2017, 09:06 PM
#18
Senior Moderator
Base TLs have paddle shifters too 
09-08-2017, 10:06 PM
#20
Suzuka Master
09-08-2017, 11:56 PM
#21
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by truonghthe
not for 07-08 model.
09-09-2017, 06:38 AM
#22
09-09-2017, 08:47 AM
#23
Salesman sent me a couple more shots, this time of the engine and the seats.
After he sent these to me I asked him about the badging on the head rests and inquired about the wheels, and he told me that there's badging on then steering wheel and on the back of the car.
https://imgur.com/a/1yGbt
After he sent these to me I asked him about the badging on the head rests and inquired about the wheels, and he told me that there's badging on then steering wheel and on the back of the car.
https://imgur.com/a/1yGbt
09-09-2017, 11:19 AM
#24
Suzuka Master
09-09-2017, 03:33 PM
#25
Racer
The driver's seat looks rough. The aluminum trim is rough. This car would require a lot of work to get looking good cosmetically. I would be concerned what it would take to get the car mechanically sound.
Keep looking for another TL. You can get one in much better condition for around the same price.
Keep looking for another TL. You can get one in much better condition for around the same price.
09-11-2017, 04:44 PM
#27
Only a real mechanic will tell you what's wrong with it.
Salesmen always try to make the sale, and when you walk away with the car, it's your problem.
So don't assume, I thoroughly look through cars and see if there's any signs of leakage somewhere. And bushings. To see how well the car was driven and maintained.
Salesmen always try to make the sale, and when you walk away with the car, it's your problem.
So don't assume, I thoroughly look through cars and see if there's any signs of leakage somewhere. And bushings. To see how well the car was driven and maintained.
09-19-2017, 12:58 PM
#28
Take the dealers word with a grain of sale. Bought an exotic car from a sports car shop and once I started asking the right questions you realize they have no idea what they are talking about. Then you get into the servicing of the car and realize they REALLY didn't know what they were talking about.
Not sure where you are located, but I will be listing mine for sale once I hit 30 posts. Hard to believe I haven't hit that despite being a member on here since 2014.
2008 TL Type-S Manual / Black with over 53 service records (everything was done at the dealer since owning the car). PM me for details, otherwise look for the for sale thread once I can post it.
Not sure where you are located, but I will be listing mine for sale once I hit 30 posts. Hard to believe I haven't hit that despite being a member on here since 2014.
2008 TL Type-S Manual / Black with over 53 service records (everything was done at the dealer since owning the car). PM me for details, otherwise look for the for sale thread once I can post it.
09-19-2017, 01:18 PM
#29
Take the dealers word with a grain of sale. Bought an exotic car from a sports car shop and once I started asking the right questions you realize they have no idea what they are talking about. Then you get into the servicing of the car and realize they REALLY didn't know what they were talking about.
Not sure where you are located, but I will be listing mine for sale once I hit 30 posts. Hard to believe I haven't hit that despite being a member on here since 2014.
2008 TL Type-S Manual / Black with over 53 service records (everything was done at the dealer since owning the car). PM me for details, otherwise look for the for sale thread once I can post it.
Not sure where you are located, but I will be listing mine for sale once I hit 30 posts. Hard to believe I haven't hit that despite being a member on here since 2014.
2008 TL Type-S Manual / Black with over 53 service records (everything was done at the dealer since owning the car). PM me for details, otherwise look for the for sale thread once I can post it.
That sounds great, but unfortunately I can't drive a stick 😩😩😩