jhr3uva90

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...html#printMode


YIKES!

The good news is, I doubt if the RLX will be a $50K a couple of years from now. Acura will probably be selling them at invoice, at most.

dwboston

Dan Neil is a classic German, RWD, V8 fanboy, like the rest of the auto press. His reviews are entertaining, but I take his opinions with a grain of salt.

GoHawks

That may be the case, but are any of you surprised about the comments, both about the FWD platform and the rather drab looks?

Even though I agree with him about the looks of the car I view that as subjective. I'm sure there are many out there who don't like the looks of the BMWs and Mercs. It's the overall negativeness about the driving dynamics that is more disheartening.

The problem is that Acura and the RLX needs all the help it can get in order to compete with the other brands, and this sort of review doesn't do it any favors.

I'm afraid that the RLX will suffer the same fate as the 2nd gen RL. It will be deeply discounted and many people will get great deals and enjoy the car, but it will do nothing to help it compete with the tier 1 brands.

getakey

wow - not a nice review
Styling is subjective. I like the look of the new RLX. In terms of BMW 5 series or MB E series, what's so good about them in terms of style? Nothing bold, they just look like their brand. If you loaded them with same tech, I'm sure price would be way over RLX. As for FWD, I did not like that Acura was launching this first. That said, if you are in snow country, which would you rather have FWD or RWD? I do not live in a winter snow area so I do not know. I've driven in plenty of snow up in Lake Tahoe area, but always with 4WD or AWD.

Bobkats

New owner of 2014 RLX...sweet vehicle. Second Acura for hubby and me. The car is anything but boring. Still trying to work out some settings, but love it thus far!

getakey

Good for you! Remember to sign in on the sticky thread

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I have a great deal of respect for Dan Neil, but even he has to admit that the vast majority of luxury car buyers couldn't care less about RWD vs FWD, much less identify which one their car has. While the automotive press continues to push for RWD and V8 engines, that is likely a moot point for most luxury buyers.

However, what he says about the RLX being calculated to take advantage of Honda's existing platforms is almost certainly true. It continues to be part of the problem for Acura that the perception is that their Acura cars are little more than worked over Honda models, a perception that is not too far from the reality. While I certainly do not necessarily mind this, as I feel that Honda has developed some of the finest FWD chassis in the world, not all consumers agree with me.

In all honesty, if Acura wants to shake the perception to the average consumer that it is little more than a Honda in a nice suit, then Acura must develop distinct platforms on which to base its cars of must find a way to alter the platforms, a la VW and Audi, to create sufficient differentiation to distinguish the cars of the two brands.

getakey

Lexus and Infinity are the same in terms of sharing platforms with Toyota in Nissan
There's some sharing between Audi and VW as well

dwboston

Looks are subjective. I've seen the car in person and don't find it drab. I fail to see what is so exciting about the styling of a 5-series BMW. The A6 is a nice looking car.

Acura is never going to truly compete with "tier 1" brands. It will always draw value-oriented luxury buyers, IMO. There's nothing wrong with that.

dwboston

I've said since the RLX was announced that it is a mistake to launch with the lesser FWD model first. You never get a second chance at a first impression, and Acura is seeing the repercussions now with reviews like these. We'll see if the auto press gives the SH-AWD version of the RLX a fair shake.

One thing that's clear to me from reading the WSJ review and comments is that people have no clue what SH-AWD is all about. They think it's some electronic nanny system. Just goes to show what a poor job Acura did at marketing it.

I see a lot of BMW, MB, and Audi cars on the road in the Northeast. The vast majority are X-drive, 4Matic, and Quattro variants, with very few V8 versions. Hardly anyone in the snow belt is driving a RWD car in the winter. If they are, they aren't getting very far.

GoHawks

We have beat up this topic before so I hesitate to get it going again, but here it goes.

Lexus and Infiniti only share platforms for some of their models.

With Lexus it is the ES (Toyota Avalon), RX (Highlander) GX (4Runner) and LX (Land Cruiser). The GS and LS do not share platforms with Toyota.

The only platform sharing I am aware of with Infiniti is with the JX (Pathfinder).

True the "lesser" Audi's and VW share platforms, but I believe the A8 has it's own.

The RLX is still derived off of the Accord platform. Again, this doesn't make a "bad" car. As someone else said, Honda based some great cars, but unfortunately people still view Acuras as dressed up Hondas, and that really isn't too far off.

As far as BMW styling, again I agree that styling is subjective and BMW has been bashed for ugly babies in the past (remember the Bangle 7 series).

GoHawks

I agree with you and I said the same thing, but some folks thought we were making too much out of it.

I'm afraid that by the time the SH-SH-AWD version comes out, people will have already dismissed the car.

Remember the old saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results".

The 2nd gen RL was a FWD based car that was introuduced with a trick AWD system to create offer a more balanced and neutral ride.

As cool as it was, nobody bought into it. So what does Acura do? They are still offering a FWD car with a trick AWD system. The only thing they did different is also offer it in FWD too, while Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW and the rest offer their flagships in either AWD or RWD.

getakey

I don't want to rehash platform either, but G35 Infinity shares with Nissan Z. Also the Murano with the FX

That said, I don't care about the platform share.

In Calif, I'd say Acura has a very good brand image. Perhaps not in the midwest or east

GoHawks

Quite honestly it doesn't bother me, but I do think that Acura needs to do a better job differentiating Acura from Honda.

With respect to an earlier comment on styling.

As I said here before, I have owned Acuras for 20 years. I loved my 2nd gen RL. I fell in love with the Cadillac CTS coupe when it came out, but I was hesitant to leave Acura, and I was also waiting to see what the new RLX would look like.

When the inital pictures started coming out last year I was underwhelmed and it pushed me to take the chance on Cadillac.

Admittedly I have only seen the RLX in pictures.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. My sister (36 years old) and my brother-in-law have been shopping for a compact SUV to replace their 9 year old Murano. I had been working on them for a long time and they finally decided on an RDX. I referred them to my old dealer who serviced my last three Acuras.

When they went and picked up the car I asked them to take a look at the RLX and let me know what they thought.

My sister's comment was that it "looked like an old man's car".

JM2010 SH-AWD

If someone comes into this analysis with a "RWD-V8" bias, no amount of advertising, testing, analyzing, etc. is going to change (or even open) their mind regarding PAWS, SH-AWD or anything else similar. I've said it before, but a reviewer will positively gush over an A6, totally disregarding that it's a FWD based car that can be had with AWD, just like the RLX will be (when the AWD version is released - and I agree, AWD should have come out first or simultaneously). Put that same reviewer in a non-German car and you get this type of review.

I agree most people don't know RWD from a bucket of spit, much less what their car has. I've also owned RWD cars with powerful motors, and after my last (a number of years ago now), I swore I would never do that again after repeatedly pushing/pulling/rocking that sucker out of snow/ice in a particularly bad winter we had. Those like the author advocating (almost to exclusion) the RWD/V8 approach evidently don't use cars in the real world (i.e., places where there is snow/ice in the winter).

dwboston

Go see the RLX in person. It looks much better in person than it does in most of Acura's press photos.

GoHawks

Oh I intend to. I was just sharing the opinion of my sister who did see it in person and sat in it.

jhr3uva90

The Infiniti G, M, and FX share the same FM platform as the Nissan 370Z.

The Lexuses that share platforms with "regular" Toyotas are by far the most popular models. Funny how Lexus owners don't see those cars as "dressed up" Toyotas.

g37guy01

You forgot the GT-R.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The difference is that the platform sharing there is limited to a few models. Pretty much the entire Acura lineup platform-shares with their Honda stablemates. This allows for the easy conclusion that Acuras are just gussied up Hondas.

Also, the FM platform is modular, so the 370Z, which is a short wheelbase 2-seat only model still looks and feels different from a slightly stretched wheelbase G37 coupe with a back seat, which in turn feels different from the even further stretched wheelbase M37. To the unknowing consumer, the assumption is not made that these all share the same platform because they look different enough.

As for Lexus, most people do see the Lexus ES as a dressed up Toyota. However, there are no US direct matches in the Toyota lineup for the Lexus IS, GS, or LS. Again, it is a matter of creating sufficient differentiation.

Finally, Audi and VW platforms are no longer entirely the same. VW still mounts their engines transverse in the engine bay while every Audi car (not SUV), except the A3, mounts their engines longitudinally. This alone is enough to fool the average consumer into believing that the two platforms are entirely different, even though they may still share many parts.

g37guy01

I dunno. I don't see the TL as really being a gussied up accord. Nor the es as a gussied up Avalon. The Nissan fm platform is a generic design consisting of engine and axle placement.

While we know there is some part sharing in the interest of costs, there imo is sufficient engineering to differentiate the luxury divisions. Some exceptions exists...however the jx and pathfinder are twins separated at birth.

Sonor Kid 2

This car is a huge disappointment for me, this is Acura's flagship sedan?
I know that looks are subjective but the design of this car doesn't appeal to me at all, I was really hoping for something special with the RLX.
The RLX will be received by the press about as well as the current TL as seen already in this article. I hope they aren't hoping to hit big sales numbers with this car, it's not going to happen Acura.
Sorry for the harsh response but this car has no character in my view, I hope they do better with the next TL.
This is the best that Honda/Acura can come up with?
What a joke...

jhr3uva90

I'm sure, if we took a survey of "regular" people (non-car fans), most of them would NOT see the Lexus ES as a dressed up Toyota. That's why the ES sells better than the very similar Toyota Avalon.

Also, despite all the praise Audi gets from car aficionados, Acura has outsold them in the USA for several years. By the way, Acura also outsell Cadillac, despite all the billions GM has invested in it.

It really comes to PERCEPTIONS, not reality. The person looking at the Lexus RX SUV does not perceive it as a fancy Toyota Highlander. That's why it is Lexus' most popular vehicle. Part of the goal of marketing is the establish or alter customers' perceptions. Honda is an engine company, Toyota is a marketing company.

Jerzyboi

So like most honda/acura products the RLX don't sit well most car enthusiast/reviewers? I wonder how the xts stacks up against the RLX.

KES

I am probably in the minority here but I really like the looks of the new Accord. I like it much better than the RLX. So I can save 30K skip the luxury items and get a car I like the looks of better. You would think it would be the opposite that I would have to settle for the accord but really desire the RLX.

KeithL

I agree the new Accord is a very nice car. I have been tempted to get the Touring as a bridge car since my M lease is up in a few months and use the Touring for a year until the TLX comes out. The Touring Accord has a great deal of tech in it, LED headlights, active cruise control, blind spot (passenger side only) camera, lane departure and collision warning. Not bad for a $33K car! Still not a fan of the center stack layout, but it is headed in the right direction.

GoHawks

With respect to Cadillac, keep in mind that for the last couple of years Cadillac has only had the CTS, SRX and the Escalade, with the CTS REALLY carrying the load. The STS and DTS were discontinued and for the most part (my opinion) were snoozers. Quality was also a big issue.

Acura has had the TSX, ILX (recently), TL, RL, RDX and MDX. That's just in the US. In Canada they were selling a car that was shamefully nothing more than a Civic with Acura badges on it. I can't remember the name, but it in my opinion horribly dilutes the brand. Acura has had the advantage of being a much more reliable brand.

With Cadillac, things seem to be changing. Quality has improved. The CTS brought back some respectability to the brand but it had been aging. The CTS-V brought performance respectability. The ATS has been deemed a true competitor to the 3 series, the CTS has been redesigned. The SRX has sold well. To be fair it shares a platform with other GM brands as does the XTS and Escalade. The ATS platform was all new and exclusive to Cadillac and the new CTS is based on the same bones. A new Escalade is coming and rumor is that Cadillac is building an all new flagship from the ground up to compete with the likes of the 7 series and S Class. The XTS is just a stopgap put in place for those people who miss the DTS.

We shall see.

I will say that I like the approach that Cadillac took with bringing back respectability and perception. They started out with the CTS. It was basically a 'tweener. 5 series proportions and depending on trim level, "almost 5 series like" at a 3 series price. It didn't really take sales away from BMW, but made people take notice. It sold on VALUE (sound familiar?). Once they gained some credibility the ATS was meant to be a headshot at the 3 series, and depending on the reviews you read, some people feel like the ATS performs as well or better than the 3 series. With the ATS now directly competing with the 3 series, the redesigned CTS is supposed to go head to head with the 5 series (we shall see), and then a new flagship down th road.

The technology should then trickle DOWN to other GM models.

The difference here seems like Cadillac has a plan, the key will be whether they can execute and whether the quality will be there.

There is no question that Acura has the advantage in quality, but it doesn't seem like they have a plan for the brand. They seem to be content with relying on taking Honda platforms like the Civic, Accord, CRX, and Pilot (actually based off the Accord), enhancing them and using them as Acura models to test technologies that will eventually find their way to the rest of the Honda line-up.

Not necessarily a bad plan, just different.

GoHawks

That would be interesting to see. They are pretty close for now.

The XTS has 304 HP to the 310 in the RLX. The XTS can be had in AWD trim, but when the SH-SH-AWD RLX comes out it will spank the XTS.

Keep in mind as I alluded in my previous post, the XTS is a stopgap until the true flagship is introduced. It is basically a dressed up Buick LaCrosse.

GoHawks

I too like the Accord surprisingly more than the RLX (style-wise). I think it looks very upscale.

g37guy01

Right, but that doesn't mean a lot of people don't think BMW styling is top notch. BMW to name one, has perfected the art of styling, whether you like their cars or style or not. Acura is working on it.

Acura reminds of the tagline in the old Avis commercials.."We may be #2 but we try harder".

Sonor Kid 2

+1

rsx2rdx

I agree, a lot of car-buying comes down to PERCEPTIONS. The WSJ reviewer is harsh and seems to have some bias but it's partly Acura's issue because the conversation has steered away from a coversation Acura can win...which is value VS. a conversation which they will currently lose...which is trying to go head-to-head in the Luxury market. If they led with the SH-AWD model, they could have touted Performance and Smarts (30/30/30), but not the path they chose.

The RLX is probably a pretty good vehicle and probably fixes lots of things RL drivers were complaining about. (Honda in general is a pretty data-driven company), but I think a lot of the negativity towards it has to do with pricing. If Acura dropped the pricing 5K, say started at 45K and topped the Advance was around 55K, it would look a lot more attractive.

dwest1023

Well, I saw it and drove it, and I felt the exact same way. It seems like the RLX was design for the old Buick crowd. There is just no flare in the design in the design of the RLX. No body Kit or optional wheels. Not even a wood grain steering wheel. I suspect that Acura will have to heavily discount the RLX like the 2 gen RL to sale this car. There is no way, I would be the first to buy this car. I got 10K off my 2006 when they Acura could not sell it.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

And that is precisely where the problem lies. Honda, as an engine company, is no longer on the bleeding edge of engine technology and has had to play catch up to a lot of the competition in recent years, who have introduced engines that are equally as powerful and efficient as Honda's best efforts.

As a marketing company, Honda has not exactly generated a whole lot of excitement in recent years. I think the last Honda marketing effort that was worthy of any attention in recent years was the "cog" Rube Goldberg-esque commercial that was used to market the Accord Tourer overseas and went viral on the Internet.

Sometimes, you can build the best widget in the world, but someone else will claim that title if you cannot get your message out effectively to the buying public.

hondamore

In my opinion, Acura's biggest problem in trying to go to the high end of the luxury car market is being forever linked to their parent company, Honda. Honda makes safe, reliable vehicles for the masses and they have sold them by the millions. When those same Honda owners find themselves moving up the social ladder, they often want to announce their new found wealth/status to the world by switching over to one of the automotive brands with an abundance of "snob appeal" such as BMW or Mercedes. This leaves the Acura flagship to appeal mostly to those former Honda owners (like me)who don't want to flash their wealth and instead wish to feel at home in another Honda made vehicle that offers all of the luxury and convenience of the "snobby" brands. Again, just my opinion.

ostrich

hondamore, that is very well stated. Honda/Acura is a victim of its own success - the Accord is so successful that people will forever compare it to Acura vehicles. Also, the Acura appeal has always been low key and high-tech that it attracts well-heeled but down-to-earth buyers, rather than those who cannot wait to get into a BMW/Audi/MB just to flash their wealth.

g37guy01

Maybe your post indicates the root cause of lack of sales of Acura products. Honda/Acura customers and potential customers view a move to the BMW/Merc et.al as a move to a "snobby" brand, without really understanding what BMW/Merc et. al. customers see in those brands, other than the vaunted "badge". Acura promulgates the myth the only reason to buy a BMW is for the "badge", aka "snob appeal", aka "flashing your wealth". The world is a big place and their is room for many opinions, but it is interesting the Big 3 German brands are showing increasing sales...and while one can go toe to toe with sales of competing products across manufacturers..BMW/Audi/Merc must be giving the customer what they want.

jhr3uva90

Maybe the big 3 global brands show increases because:
1. They are global. There is hardly any "Acura" outside of North America, so Acura is not competing globally.
2. Global wealth is contracting. The few people left who can still afford $50K+ sedans are buying (most likely leasing) the big brands so they can signal to the world that they can still buy (lease, really) expensive cars.

neuronbob

Egads what a horrible review.

hondamore nails the point. I will tell you, though, that in the early 90's, Acura had cache and respect.....then Lexus came along and ate its lunch for several years.

This can be reversed with appropriate marketing and time. Hopefully, the marketers at Acura know what they are doing with the RLX.

GoHawks

Well put, I was going to say the same thing.