sooththetruth

There is a "Big Bang Theory" vibe to this board. No malice intended. I am on this board.

Would Acura be upset if our attraction to Acura's were to be ....associated....with a certain personality type?

neuronbob

OK, still analyzing.

I was at the dealer yesterday; my appointment was delayed because of a power outage Friday at the dealer and in the surrounding neighborhood. I asked to have an engine block heater installed in addition to a quick look for obvious problems.

The service staff connected the car up to its computers and there are no ECU upgrades (and for that matter, no navi upgrades, either ) available--it's apparently quite easy for them to check this, so they did. All systems checked out as working appropriately. No obviously defective thermometer. I asked for a MAF sensor check but I don't think it was done.

Was therefore left with instructions to do what even I've said throughout the thread, watch the mileage when the weather warms up and fuel changes back to summer blend, and if low mileage continues, more work will commence.

In the meantime, I had an Acura engine block heater installed. Here's what it looks like installed:

Plug in little cubby for protection from the element while driving


Plugged in


I purchased it to determine whether warming the engine will appreciably affect fuel economy at least for the first trip of the day, after the car has been sitting the longest. As it turns out, it does. Weather conditions were similar yesterday and today. In my trip downtown from home, in single-digit temps, I achieved 22 mpg. Today, the same trip under the same circumstances, and starting out from single digits below zero, I achieved 25 mpg. Part 2 of my commute, between the hospital and the office later in the morning, I achieved 22 mpg.

So there seems to be some positive effect. I'll keep track of this to see whether this was just a fluke or whether there is a consistently positive effect.

PS:
Record low for the day here in Cleveland on 2/20/15:


Car started up, no problems. I guess having a big backup battery as part of the hybrid system helps, no?

neuronbob

I also have a timer on the way via Amazon. I left the heater plugged in all night last night, but apparently it really only needs 2-3 hours to heat the fluids enough to do the job. Why use more energy than necessary?

fsmith

^^^ Nice Photoshopping of the temperature readout. Yikes. :-)

getakey

I probably missed it in this long thread, but what is your commute like in terms of distance and city vs highway?

neuronbob

I WISH it were a Photoshop. I'm only happy the the snow that usually hits us hit the Northeast instead. Don't worry, we'll be hit again as usual next year.

20 miles, mostly freeway, stop-go the last 4-5 miles into downtown, then 15 more miles to the office, 80% freeway and usually after rush hour, then 5 miles to home, 50-50 city-highway.

getakey

wow - so you are thinking that low of mileage is basically temp thing?
Any comparison to PAWS people in same cold weather?

Does not add up for me. Seems like you should be approaching 30 mpg with that commute

George Knighton

Bazinga

sooththetruth

[QUOTE=neuronbob;15346052]OK, still analyzing.

I was at the dealer yesterday; my appointment was delayed because of a power outage Friday at the dealer and in the surrounding neighborhood. I asked to have an engine block heater installed in addition to a quick look for obvious problems.

Plugged in


I note the pseudo scofflaw license plate "protector" with "legal" tinting.

neuronbob

Thus the reason for the service visit.

I admit being woefully ignorant about hybrids in the past. Apparently, a loss of fuel economy of up to 30% is not unusual in extreme cold in hybrids, as opposed to less than 10% in non-hybrid cars.

I don't warm up the car more than 30 seconds. I limit use of the defroster when I can. I have tried feathering the throttle. I'm actually considering blocking the grille to keep operating temperature up.

getakey

hmm - I'll have to think about that. I know batteries do not like the cold and therefore range is reduced in EVs, but why the hit on mpg? I would expect that your low point would be same as non-hybrid not lower.

neuronbob

^^^^
In extreme weather like this, the main battery is presumably running HVAC in its cold-weakened state, and with below-zero and single-digit temps F, HVAC running constantly and HARD. The battery is therefore not adding as much to the propulsion system. The GDI engine is therefore doing more work in not only recharging the battery, but also moving the (250 pound heavier than PAWS) car.

This is yet another reason to look forward to spring.

getakey

I get the heavier part, but are you saying hybrid has electric heater for cabin air?
that surprised me to use electric battery to heat air.

Also, seems that GDI engine should not be recharging main battery until it goes pretty far down in charge. Better to leave lots of recharge "room" for regen braking

neuronbob

The AC compressor is electric. Seems that the rest of the system could be as well. When the engine is off, the heater definitely continues to operate, providing heat (as opposed to quickly cooling off with a gas engine alone). Will have to look deeper to find that information.

Acura | Press Releases Article | Acura.com

getakey

Interesting. Understand for the AC and that makes some sense. I guess they could operate it as a Heat Pump if designed that way for Heat, but I don't see engine temp cooling off that quickly to worry about that for Heat. Seems like a big waste to me to use hybrid battery for heat and then recharge with gas engine because its been depleted for heating. Rather have mode to keep engine at idle at low temps

getakey

wow - I did not look closely to see the temps you were in
Heat pump would not work in that environment, so if your car is heating from battery before the gas engine gets warm it has to be resistance heating

I can see this in Prius and for sure Volt where gas engine is off a lot, but the RLX is sport hybrid. How much are you really on electric all alone not counting stopped?

neuronbob

I told everyone I'd be the winter beta tester. Couple of others have joined me now, though.

I wish we had a Honda engineer around to answer some of these questions. You are asking the same questions I have.

CadiGTi

Bob, you need to get the attention of the right person at Honda/Acura. My Aunt had a new 1991 2nd gen Legend with some issues the dealer could not remedy. I was working in Detroit at the time and was at a JD Power presentation given by JD the 3rd himself. Sitting at my table was a high ranking Acura engineer, Jeff Jetter, and some big dog from Honda Japan. During a break Jeff spoke with me and I told him about 2 Honda Accords I had owned and what great cars they were. I also mentioned my Aunt's Acura and her issues. The big dog told Jeff to get my Aunt's contact info from me. The next thing I know my Aunt from Florida calls me to tell me there is an Acura factory engineer at her door to pick up her Legend (they leave her a loaner). Apparently there were some engineering issues with that 1st yr - 2nd gen Legends, and hers got the kid glove treatment. Jeff actually called me a few times over the years to check on my Aunt's Legend. He was a true gentleman and a real professional. Of course that was in Acura's formative days when they were shooting for Tier One status.

In the past 400 miles, I have averaged 22mpg on my 2012 RL in some very cold temps, but not -17!

Ed

neuronbob

Update: four days of single digit or near zero lows at the time of the start of my commute, using the engine block heater.

Every day on my first/long commute, I have been 25 mpg according to the info screen. That's 2-3 mpg better than my usual.

Further, I have been timing the duration between engine on and the little blue light on the dash going off. That blue light indicates that the engine is at operating temperature. Was 6-8 minutes before the engine block heater in early morning temps in single digits/near zero. Now it's about 2-3 minutes.

Success! Engine block heater can improve mileage.

getakey

When does your cabin heater kick in? Still wanting to know if it is traditional heater or has electric mode. I'm still guessing traditional.

neuronbob

It "kicks in" fully only after the GDI engine is at operating temperature, so it's probably the traditional type of heater core connected to the coolant system. I noticed that as my time to full operating temperature decreased, the time for the climate control to fully begin working also shortened, adding to my supposition.

I went through the specs and the owner's manual and nothing specific is said of the type of heater, so I'm just going with my observations.

Learning lots and beta-testing away!

getakey

Cool - I think the same and your observations seem to confirm

timmins

for some 15 years now i have been using ZMax oil additive to all my cars. you know i live in a colder place than most of you guys, this thing work. it reduces friction and the car will fire up on first start. i do wait a minute before starting with the ignition on and all lights on so the car knows the temperature and adjust fuel and spark.
another added benefit to the ZMax is the reduction of dead paddle, you know the wait time before the engine recognizes that you are asking for full power. this is awful in Mercedes. i also add a K&N air filter. didnt do that for the RLX though worried it will start sounding sportier. dont know i may. any thoughts?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I don't know if this would be useful as GDI engines are so highly tuned I doubt if Zmax would be helpful, nor a K&N air filter. Also I don't think their filter would add any intake noise based on the noise baffling.

neuronbob

We need an objective before and after test regarding mileage with Zmax. People who use it, though, tend to become true believers, I've noted. I've never been a believer in oil additives but with appropriate objective data would be willing to take a look.

Adding a K&N filter will not add any noise. If you replace the air intake itself with a less restrictive one than stock, you might notice a sound difference. I've modded enough cars to know....

George Knighton

I don't see any particular good reason to try to increase either horsepower or fuel economy in this car.

My goodness. We've got something like 435 cumulative HP and 30 mpg.

All we're doing is spending money if we try to do more.

But of course, that's just me talking.

George Knighton

And after glancing at another thread, I'd venture that it's a wiser investment buying someone's wife more sensible driving shoes.

TampaRLX-SH

This thread puzzles me. The disparity in EPA vs Actual AVG MPG raises an eyebrow.

I am comforted to hear those in mild climates are achieving at or very near the EPA ratings. But considering the amount of engineering that went into Sport Hybrid technology I am disappointed to read numbers surpassed by the PAWS models (even if related to cold weather drivers).

I too expect this car to be more about Sport and AWD then a Prius wannabe. And I too do not expect lofty EPA as a result. But I think Honda expected more too. The Dual Note / DNX concept was for 50-ish MPG. So when the EPA MPG for the RLX was announced at 30, I was a bit let down. I had hoped for mid 30's for the amount of engineering complexity that is in this car, and the cost.

I also wonder if the skipped model year (assuming there WILL be a 2016 RLX SH) is an opportunity to either refine the SH more,,,,or to reset the EPA MPG expectations that would certainly be challenged if a higher number of cars were built and resulted in unhappy owners less apologetic for Acura than this forum seems to have morphed into.

neuronbob

I think you grok my sense of concern and the reason--I have been following Honda Dual Note-related tech for years, as you have, and was hoping for better. I'd be ecstatic to get anywhere near 30 mpg, but it's never happened. Unfortunately it seems simple physics is kicking this car's butt mileage-wise at subfreezing temps. A data point here is that the average temperature at the Cleveland airport for the month of February was the coldest ever recorded, 15 F.

Let's face it, the best way to improve fuel economy with the Sport Hybrid it to swap it for a PAWS, which has better freeway fuel economy and better range because of the larger feel tank. I was documenting fuel economy on Fuelly earlier today and my overall fuel economy is exactly the same as the PAWS owners posting there. One guy is getting 24 mpg average to my 22.

On the other hand, only by "beta testing" (and with this car, we are indeed beta testing even if Acura doesn't say so, more than with many other first-year launches), do I get an opportunity to have a say in where this tech goes in the future. And let me tell you, the propulsion system in this car is pretty remarkable, sports car fast. It's certainly worth refining IMHO.

So hopefully the mileage picks up in the next few weeks as the weather mercifully warms up. If not....well, Acura Corporate will be hearing from me.

timmins

sorry guys it wasn't my intention to veer off the thread subject. my ZMax comments were directed to cold starting. yes it does help even with higher revving engines. i used them on my Porsche 911 S4 and my TL as well as other vehicles. i first used ZMax when i bought a 1968 Mercedes 280 SE convertible. the car was a one owner lady that had too much carbon buildup that changing the injectors and spark plugs with thousands spent at the mechanic didnt help. since then, i used it on all my cars.
as for the noise, the K&N does give the car a sportier snarl. also for sure the ZMax and K&N do help with the dead paddle feel or the wait between stepping on the gas and response. i'm not trying to push these products. i'm only giving a true account of my experience.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

This is my worst tank yet. I am getting 23.1mpg in mostly local driving, with lots of idling waiting for the kids, and many warm ups from 0 to -12 morning temps. I will be doing a 300 mile loop tomorrow so we will see what the mileage is.

getakey

Bob - you may find this interesting. Now that I'm an EV owner, been browsing the EV forums

Electric vs. Gasoline Showdown: Vehicle Range in Cold Weather | FleetCarma

neuronbob

Yup, seen it already. I've been doing all kinds of Googling/research/asking those in my real life social circle who own hybrids.

I found some interesting stuff. For example, did you know that you can trick some hybrid systems into triggering the electric motors? I'd love to have a cheat sheet for this system.

getakey

Kind of reminds you of the days you had "cheater" codes for electronic games

hondamore

Neuronbob, perhaps you should take your experiment to the next level and keep your Sport Hybrid in a heated garage overnight. Keeping you ENTIRE car at, say 50 degrees all night should make all the components happy and not just the engine block. I'd be curious to see if your fuel economy improved in that situation. Added benefit... it is a lot nicer to hop into a nice warm car in the morning and you'll never scrape ice off your windshield or forget to unplug the block heater again.

George Knighton

One of the engineers who visited Culpeper mentioned that you could trick the motors into working up to around 50 mph, but I wasn't that interested in doing that so I didn't pursue it.

The only manual manipulation that I do is that I'll reach down and push the Sport button if I know that I'll want to pull out quickly into traffic, or if for any other reason I know that I'll want the J Motor running when it's not.

Very happy that they put braille on the Sport button to make it easy to find.

neuronbob

HA! The wife insists on her parking spot in the (unheated but well-insulated) garage during the winter (this makes my life easier--I don't have to scrape off TWO cars on snowy days) and the CTS-V takes up the other bay. I drive the V on dry days during the winter and being as it's a bit flashier, I prefer to keep it in the garage.

But you are right. This car needs to be garaged during the winter.

Time for a third garage bay!

TampaRLX-SH

^^^Not that we keep score....

*Bob would move to warmer climate vs Wifey won't move. Point Wifey
*Bob would have garage for SH RLX vs Wifey's Pilot garaged. Point Wifey
*Bob has SH RLX, CTS-V Estate and S2000 vs Wifey has headache. Point Wifey

The game is looking pretty lopsided. Better check to see if Bob's balls are fully inflated?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I completed my 322 mile loop and here are my details:
191 miles to empty at the end of the trip
28.9 average mpg
71 average mph
14-22 temperature range while driving
clear road conditions at the time
frequent elevation changes in the mountains

Overall it was so tempting to dip into the throttle, but I resisted for testing purposes to report to you with one exception where I "had" to pass someone. Oh and I started the trip on a completely cold engine and the heat was on for the entire trip.

Again I say what an awesome car and I feel privileged to own it.

neuronbob

Fixed but still accurate. Let's just say I suffer to be allowed my big boy toys, much like that Dodge Superbowl ad from five years ago.

I'm reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" this week. Does that help?

Got 26.9 mpg on my commute this morning. Yay!