jhr3uva90

I don't think the Infiniti M's relatively low sales are a reflection of the actual car. I just think people who drive cars in this price range are very brand oriented, so they choose BMW and Mercedes.

hondamore

EXACTLY!! The Honda/Acura executives have reached the same conclusion and so they resisted the temptation to spend a lot of money to create a big horsepower RWD identity for the RLX and why they have accepted that the RLX will be a technology flagship/testbed for the brand and not a big sales leader. Should the economy change and the snob brands start to lose their shine, then some of the R & D from the Tier one days will be restarted for another try.

JT4

^^I totally agree. I had mentioned in another post that this is what Hyundai is dealing with in regards to the Equus and the Genesis. IMO the Acura brand is better known for luxury than Hyundai but the situation is similar.

A $67K Equus may be a very capable, value packed car and let’s just say for argument sake that it even surpasses the S-Class and 7 Series in performance, fit / finish etc. I still find it very hard to believe that someone shopping for an S-Class or 7 Series is walking into a Hyundai showroom to cross shop an Equus.

Right, wrong or indifferent IMO I think the majority of these buyers would “settle” for an E-Class or 5 Series with less equipment than buy the Hyundai. Because to them the brand means more than content.

One of Hyundai’s problems is that they were always known for cheap inexpensive cars. Granted they have come a long way but this perception is not easy to change especially when they are selling these “higher end" vehicles in showrooms right next to a $14K Accent. Hyundai needs to have a separate dealer network to sell and service these vehicles before the masses are going to take their premium models seriously.

Acura was never know for cheap unreliable cars, and Honda has Acura to sell and service its premium brand so at least Honda has these bases covered.

Now, if Honda/Acura can only figure out what they want to be we’ll be ok.

GoHawks

I know that it's expensive to launch a new brand, but given how far Hyundai has come along and how much they have differentiated their cars (more so than even Honda/Acura IMO), they more than anyone else should take a stab and at at least creating separate showrooms.

Very few people are going to equate an Equus with an Elantra, but you shouldn't have them sitting next to each other in the showroom. It keeps the Genesis brand down.

JT4

While I understand what you're saying, IMO I think people equate the two more than we think. I say this because anytime a conversation about a Equus comes up it enviably takes the same turn with someone saying "who would spend that much on a Hyundai". I have lost count of how many times I have heard this said about the Equus or Genesis.

I could be wrong, but my thinking is that this comment is being made because people are still equating the less expensive Hyundai cars (Elantra) to the premium Hyundai (Equus) models which isn't really fair, but it's happening.

SSFTSX

Eqqus is not value when you compared newer 6 cylinder BMW/Audi and soon MB S class.
Eqqus interior is down market, refinement is subpar, performance barely better than 6 cylinder version of the above, fuel economic is horrible compared to 6 cylinder A8/BMW 7. and Hyundai reliability is not some thing to write about. Rest of the world already knows about it. so they cannot sell there vehicles at premium.
Acura RLX is No 1 is reliabilty, safety is TSP+ (see how many Lexus/Hyundia can get this rating), long tire life, suspension that dont deform, refinement at the top, fuel economic at top, performance/handling at top see figure 8 MT (just need proper tire setup), Acura music system as good or better than B&O options on German, man machines interfact the best, and residual values that will hold up much better on long term. Only thing missing is more color options and Honda version of RLX called Legend. usually Honda versions of Acura give better looks.

GoHawks

You're right and that's because Hyundai didn't distance the Genesis brand right from the start.

I remember when Acura was launched (back in the late '80s) that was the discussion too. "Who would spend that much on a Honda". The difference is that Honda, Toyota and Nissan launched Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti (respectively) right from the start and it helped minimize the cross reference. Although I think people associate (at least oblivious ones) less Toyota with Lexus than people do with Honda/Acura.

I think Lexus did the best job of differentiating the customer experience. I have personally run into situations where some people didn't even know that Toyota was the parent company.

Hyundai didn't do that so people right from the start have a hard time separating the two brands.

JT4

I really don’t know what you’re trying to say, and I didn’t even mention the RLX or question its reliability or how much better the sound system is or its refinement. What does this have to do with my post? Did you think I was knocking Acura so is that is why you felt it was necessary to defend them?

The Equus was built to compete with the S-Class and 7 Series. The starting price of the least expensive S-Class is $93K and will easily top $100K with a few options. The least expensive 7 Series is $74K and with a few options and the B&O sound system you are over $85K. A fully loaded Equus is approx $68K, so how is this not a value when compared to the S-Class and 7 Series.

And my point anyway was (obviously you missed it) that someone shopping for a $90K S-Class IMO is not cross shopping a Hyundai even if it was (hypothetically speaking) top rated over the MB or BMW.

GoHawks

LOL. Glad I'm not the only one. Don't bother. I occasionally get sucked into a debate with him and I am quickly reminded that he just spouts gibberish.

It's not worth it. Trust me.

JT4

Thanks.

I don't mind a debate, if I know what I'm debating about.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Stop feeding the troll...lol

jhr3uva90

I agree with everybody!

Seriously, a couple of points:

1. Toyota is basically a marketing company that understands its North American customers better than we know ourselves. That's how they managed to create a brand from scratch in 1989 that many "regular" folks in the USA and Canada put in the same category as BMW and Mercedes, even if they are actually driving Lexus ES (glorified Toyota Avalon) or RX (glorified Toyota Highlander). This is despite the fact Acura came first.

2. Hyundai Equus and Genesis are well regarded by those in the know, but the Korean companies generally don't understand marketing and brand building as well as Toyota.

3. Honda Motor Company is a motor company first. Cars are just one of the products they happen to put motors in. Because motors are Honda's priority, they will focus on Earth Dreams, fuel cells, or whatever more than they will designing pretty cars like Audi or marketing like Toyota. What's the result? The sport hybrid RLX and the sportier hybrid NSX, whenever they are released.

g37guy01

If an es 350 is a tarted up Avalon, then an Mdx is a tarted up pilot. Both Toyota and honda (and infiniti) have vehicles in their luxury division that are exclusive...ls460, is350, rlx awd. Rlx fwd is a tarted up accord, right?

hondamore

I believe you missed the point. The point is that Toyota can throw the weight of their massive marketing department into convincing people that an ES 350 is much more than a tarted up Avalon (or tarted up Camry) whereas Honda doesn't have the same resources to convince people that the RLX isn't a tarted up Accord. Toyota's sheer size allowed them to do a better job of creating "snob appeal" with the Lexus name than Honda could do with the Acura brand.

GoHawks

Keep in mind that you are comparing Toyota Camry/Avalon with the entry level Lexus offering versus comparing an Accord with Acura's flagship.

Big difference.

Even though they are based on the same platform, no one will mistake an ES350 for a Toyota Camry or Avalon. The presentation, look and feel of the ES is definitely a step above the Camry.

No different with the RLX. I am sure that no one sitting in an RLX will think to themselves, "wow, this looks like a tarted up Accord".

The challenge is that the Camry/Avalon and the ES are much closer to each other in the food chain as opposed to the Accord and the RLX.

If Lexus were to use the Acura philosophy, they would have based the LS on the Avalon....

I'm struggling with trying to use the appropriate parallels, but I hope I made my point.

jhr3uva90

I'm saying understanding your customer and building a strong consumer brand are important. Infiniti's cars are all RWD or AWD, but the Infiniti brand lags. And Infiniti once had a flagship to rival Lexus, but it did not sell well enough to survive.

GoHawks

Agree. Like I said either in this thread or another one, Lexus was masterful in building the brand.

SSFTSX

Situation is not similar.see your post of comparing Hyundai with Acura. $68K Eqqus is not equal to competition. so there is no point in cross shopping. Unless Hyundai can give B&O option cheaper than competition than it is value along with superior fuel economic. The amount of trash driving that MT did with RLX. if you do the same with BMW 328I the fuel economic falls to 16 to 17mpg.
Equus will be some where in 8 to 9 mpg range. All the money will be used in buying gas.

Eqqus has redesigned the interior but still it has that large steering wheel from 1980s. with buttons overload everywhere.
Lexus Copied Acura with 3 spoke steering wheel, Navigation system at eye sight.

jwong77

^^^^^ Please nobody quote it ^^^^^^

H_CAR

jwong77

Being that I work in Marketing, I'm really glad somebody on these automotive boards truly understands the importance in branding and perception. I see so many arguments about how one car is 1/10 better than another or does 0-60 in whatever seconds. When it comes to sales the branding is what counts.

Unfortunately, what many here do not realize is all human beings like recognition, and being seen in a Lexus, MB or BMW, embodies success more so than does an Acura. Sorry to shatter your world, but thats just how it is.

GoHawks

neuronbob

Quoted for truth. Use the "ignore" feature if necessary.

g37guy01

Sorry, I'm not that shallow. I thing if you are talking Bentley, rr, Ferrari, etc...than yes. You think people think BMW=success? People I know who buy BMW like them better than the competition...as do I. No denying they have brand recognition, but maybe because their form and function is spot on and they have identified their target market.

To contrast, the Aztec also had brand recognition, however that was negative and the reason Pontiac went out of business. Point....brand recognition has to be positive.

jhr3uva90

Thank you. This is why people are willing to pay for a C-class Mercedes, which I think is overrated. I predict the Mercedes CLA, which I think is even more overrated, will be a big seller. I still like my Acura, and I've had 4 of them over the past 12 years or so, but even I occasionally think about getting a "status" car, hence the Lexus GS test drive.

jhr3uva90

Yes, having lived in both the DC area and the SF Bay area, I can unequivocally say that there are lot of people who are driving BMWs strictly for status. They are usually driving a 3 series of some kind or a 528 because they wanted something bigger than a compact and they have no idea what makes BMW unique except for the name.

06RL/NBP

Why would you ever trade reliability for status is beyond me. My neighbor just bought the new 6 series BMW and it is in the shop every week for electrical problems. One morning I noticed that the left headlight only was lit up.

jhr3uva90

The world is crazy that way, I guess.

jwong77

Right on guys, its cool, I expected there would be some backlash for my comment, but like I said, its the world we live in.

Also, none of you actually refuted my point, which was the branding makes a bigger impact on sales than does actual performance. Also when I say branding it also encompasses perceived performance.

I never said BMW MB or Lexus was the ultimate in success, if you read my post, I said, "Lexus, MB or BMW, embodies success more so than does an Acura".

Anyways, go on with your anecdotal evidence, and argue to your heart's content, it does not really matter anyway. If you win this argument or whatever, life will go on as it is and Acura will still not sell as many RLX's as MB will sell E class, BMW will sell 5 Series, etc.

noobie

All cars are pretty much more reliable now then the most reliable ones from 15 years ago. At some point meeting an acceptable level of reliability allows other factors to be used in decsion making; especially when utility is not the primary concern. Status, driving dynamics, electronics, wheels, even color can factor in.

I do it all the time. Not trade off for status per se, but once I feel the vehicle is reliable enough, I use other overiding factors.

Otherwise everyone would be buying based on those red and black circles in Consumer Reports.

noobie

Was Genesis intended to be a brand? I thought it was just a top model and there was discussion whether to create a separate brand and dealer network.

Were there discussions to create a line of Genesis cars?

Either way, they blew it (and did not learn from VW's Phaeton experiment). Who wants to buy a luxury car and take it to the same service center with $14K cars and drink bad coffee with powdered creamer and leaf through old dog eared magazines.

GoHawks

I was saying they should make it a different brand. Don't know if that was ever the plan.

Also as for the reliability argument. I contend that for BMW, MB and Lexus, it doesn't matter. Most of those customers lease their cars and BMW gives you free maintenance during the warranty.

Yeah it may be annoying to have to take it in, but in reality as long as you can make the lease payment, it is a relatively painless ownership experience.

Back to the reliability. I bought a CPO 2011 BMW X5 in Sept. didn't intend to buy one, my wife just happened to like the color combo of the one we saw. It had 31K miles. Maintenance is covered until 50K and it is under warranty until June of 2016 or 100K. It now has nearly 40K miles and I have yet to visit the dealer. So I think even they have gotten better. Maybe not at Honda/Acura levels, but better nonetheless.

It is also a fun vehicle. It is not all hype. There are some quirky things the Germans do, but so far I really like the vehicle.

db22

Is yes a make of car or did you mean RLX?

db22

[QUOTE=SSFTSX;14442844]


Eqqus has redesigned the interior but still it has that large steering wheel from 1980s. with buttons overload everywhere.
Lexus Copied Acura with 3 spoke steering wheel, Navigation system at eye sight.
QUOTE]

I agree that the steering wheel in the Eqqus looks too big but the RL has a 4 spoke which I much prefer to the 3 spoke. I wish that Acura had copied Acura and utilized the 4 spoke steering wheel in their top of the line RLX and MDX.

KeithL

Agreed, I think the dealership experience with Hyundai is what will hurt them. They realize that which is why they are offering pickup service for Equus and I believe they will be doing the same for Genesis. I also think the Genesis coupe hurts the image it is glorified update to the Tiburon and never should have had the Genesis name.

VW's mistake was offering a $70K car at the time, Hyundai at least eased into it with a $45K Genesis.

JT4

LOL.. You got it.. As much as I want to I will control myself from quoting it .

db22

Hyundai and Kia should differentiate similar to the Lexus/Toyota or Acura/Honda relationship. This would allow for the separation of brand identity and all that comes with it.

g37guy01

I think it's the world you live in, your bubble. Not trying to be pejorative, but that you can't get why someone would ever want a c class is in your head. Or the invariable "my neighbors" BMW is in the shop every day ignoring that the tl has its own sets of issues that ive read on this board.

Your point is why would someone spend 95k on an s class when they could get an rlx for 65k, which is a better, more, reliable car.

I myself like the c class and was thinking of the c350. Having acura execs understand the appeal of a car like the c class is the first step toward designing cars that will draw people back to the brand.

Also making blanket statements like people buy for status, or badge hounds, or anecdotal evidence is just all of that, opinion. Nobody know the real reasons for every car sold in the world and saying for example all bmws are sold in their because people are badge hounds, is just silly.

KeithL

I believe that is their plan, I had read something a while back that said they will push one more upscale, but I think it will be more in the line of Chevy/Buick

g37guy01

Those same people wouldn't know what makes a Civic unique.

However, I am glad you have your pulse on the buyers mind in the SF and DC areas. Knowing they buy for status (which implies they just blindly write a check without a test drive and without negotiating.), rather than liking the car and buying the car because they like the car (for reasons only they themselves know)