fsmith

I sat in an NSX 2.0 the other day; pretty sweet. But the sticker pretty much melted my mind.

Pens Fan

I can highly recommend the MDX-I leased one after realizing that the limited availability and high lease payments of the RLX SH AWD were not for me at that time. First SUV for me after two RL's and four TL's and the handling of the vehicle is great.

TampaRLX-SH

I have to be honest - but after being in one I have a hard time justifying the price. In particular the interior was great, but did not impress me as a near $200K car. Although I can understand the drive-train technology and uber performance capabilities some would be attracted to - it did not feel like 3X the car of my SH (even if VERY different purposed vehicles). Of course my assessment was 'just HOW would you be able to appreciate this car's capabilities?'. Even as an 'everyday supercar' it was hard to swallow at $200K. I think I had imprinted pricing around $125K in earlier speculation of the car's cost. When you think about it the NSX is more expensive then the combined cost nearly every car in the Acura fleet (in top end trim). $65K RLX SH + $55K MDX + $42K RDX + $38K TLX. Does an ILX justify the difference?

George Knighton

I've been offered an NSX twice, now, and I still can't see a way to go for it.

I like it, but there's a lack of logic to it, and it's the wrong time to just up and splurge on something that expensive.

I believe that I am more complaining about my own circumstances that make it unaffordable than I am complaining about the MSRP. :-)

If I hadn't just invested in the development team for a video game, maybe I'd see it differently.

George Knighton

I don't know what to think.

Right now, I believe that in the summer or fall of 2018, you will see a different car that is going to be sold as a 2019 model year.

But what the hell do I know.

I'm just speculating here, but I think I see signs that there are issues getting a *smaller* motor, not a bigger one, working correctly with a Sport Hybrid drivetrain. Whatever's going on right now, there's still time to fall back to a redesigned car with basically the same, but improved drivetrain, together with all new bodywork and suspension.

Sometimes I want to grab a Honda contact and pin him down, but that probably makes for an unfortunate turn in a friendship. :-)

neuronbob

I'm not a SUV guy, really, but the 2017 MDX is one of four SUVs I'd consider in my current frame of mind: MDX for driving experience and fuel economy (I still like the mechanical SH-AWD and this SUV drives more like a car than most others), a Durango R/T (fast, fun to drive, and tows 7k pounds but that FCA "quality" I've experienced in the past is lacking....), Jeep SRT (obvious is obvious ), 1G Pilot 4WD (I just love these, can't get enough of them for some reason, can't explain it). Of those, the MDX wins.

When you see the NSX 2.0 go around a track like I did at NSXPO last month, you can see where the MSRP went. That thing is incredibly fast in the turns. It's a RLX SH with two turbos, two fewer doors, and a stiffer suspension. I'd say it is worth at least the base MSRP. Dunno if it's worth over $200k dolled up. My preferred spec (iron brakes, NO carbon fiber, XM radio, Nouvelle Blue is around $170k. Of course, For lots less than that, I could buy a used Audi R8 V10 ( ), a 911 Turbo, etc, etc. Remember that the other available gas-hybrid hypercars are far more expensive than the NSX, so by comparison, the NSX is a bargain.

There's almost never any logic to a sports car purchase. I'm about where you are right now. As I've said before, I can afford, but whether it's a wise purchase is another thing altogether.

Well, we'll know when Acura wants us to. The RL-series cars have always had longer than usual model runs (1G RL nine model years, 2G RL seven model years, RLX is only on model year four). Unless Acura brings us something faster, I think we have a fair idea of how long we'll have the current RLX.

George Knighton

I don't usually hang onto a car as long as I believe I am going to hold onto the KC2.

For all of its kinks and foibles, you would have to spend quite a bit more to get a better car.

EDIT: I'm supposing that there isn't some monumental calamitous failure that causes me to dump it, but if they're willing to go as far as replacing the entire VCM rocker arm apparatus, I might be safe.

dwboston

I think you'll live to see that prediction come true.

Despite selling my RL 4 years ago and moving to an Audi A6, I still feel an affinity for Acura and really want the RL/RLX/Legend to succeed. I agree with Tampa - It's always been a tough comparison for the RLX with other brand's flagships, when it's really more of a 5-series/A6/E-class car. In that class, turbo- or supercharged 4- and 6-cylinder engines are the norm, outside the the 550i, M5, S6, and AMG versions. Who knows what happens with CAFE standards with the incoming President, but the trend has definitely been away from V8's to turbo- and supercharged 4- and 6-cylinders, and that will likely continue.

Hopefully the RLX MMC (whenever it happens) goes better than the RL's MMC did.....

TampaRLX-SH

Hey Dan!

I do not think Honda will invest much in an RLX MMC. I think it will likely be a refresh with the new pentagon grille, some content / packaging updates and tweaks here and there. I cannot see a major investment being made with this car, it's restricted production (Sayama capacity, model variations per market, etc.) I would even expect some consolidation of the content variations form market to market. As an example the Korean LEGEND is a PAWS configuration and has the SH front LED fog & turn indicators. The only feature I feel is missing (for my taste) is a power trunk. But aside from some bobbles or colors I think Honda will hold the major investment for a FMC. And again we will speculate if it will be an Acura exclusive design and possibly a US build. The RLX is the last Acura to be built in Japan.

The photoshops of the RLX with the new grille mostly look OK. I cannot say I like it more or less than the current grille. As much as I hate the power phlegm grille, I am OK with the RLX's modified version with more a thin blade / shield within the grille frame. And I cannot imagine the pentagon grille being an awkward chop, hack and stick onto the car as the power phlegm was implemented on the RL.

dwboston

Hi Mike!

I actually kind of like the new grille - I think it looks really good on the MDX, though I'm not overly crazy about the exterior styling of the rest of that vehicle. I'm looking forward to whatever Acura comes up with in a few years as I'll be looking at my next new purchase in 2-3 years. If I'm being honest, my A6 has been far more reliable than the RL was, with only routine maintenance, new tires, and rear brakes replaced through 70K miles of driving. Acura's going to have to deliver something great to get me to switch back.

TampaRLX-SH

^^^ I agree, the new MDX front fascia looks better. Along with the new grille, there is more design interest below the bumper (and all around the lower side ofvthe car, actually). Glad to hear the Audi is performing well. I am interested in seeing the next A6 & A8. If I were to stray from Acura, it would be to Audi.

comptr

More then anything its disappointing that Acura is not offering certain options in the RLX such as a button in the trunk to close the trunk automatically in any trim level & Apple car play or Android auto or even Siri Eyes Free. Is there any chance these options come in the MMC update ?

TampaRLX-SH

I think they would be good candidates for MMC. But I do not know if the current Infotainment head unit can be updated with new features. And if they cannot, Honda may need to continue using the current parts until the supply contract is depleted. It was close timing for the RLX launch while lesser Honda models got more features in similar systems (Android and Apple) I would hope being that closely launched, our RLX head units were designed could be updated (likely new firmware) to accommodate those newer features. And I also think if that were possible that could be a costly upgrade to justify the software updates. Unfortunate, the auto biz just has not embraced technology life-cycles and backwards comparability.

Audi will be introducing Amazon Alexa in it's next generation and Blackberry is designing auto interfaces as well.

The power trunk lid is the one feature I do wish I had in my RLX.

neuronbob

All I really want is more USB ports.

TampaRLX-SH

Get a USB octopus splitter:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/7-PORT-SL...&wl13=&veh=sem

neuronbob

That's pretty much what I do when I've got my son riding in the back, only mine is a cupholder model. Were I not leasing, I would hardwire a connection for the rear seats.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

With the USB port inside the arm rest I route the wire either to the front or the back seat based on who needs what. My wife and older son use Apple products, and my younger son and I use Android, so he and I share a different wire plugged into the other power source in the arm rest. For that need I purchased a dual input USB plug/device so we actually have three spots if we need it for long trips. Works well for our family. Keeps the peace providing we don't bring up politics. My sons are big Trumpsters and will argue deep arguments for that Buffoon who is taking over. Not that I liked either choice, but discussing these topics with our kids is important, and the fact that mine actually can discuss policy way beyond the talking points is impressive. It seems that with many, knowledge of our elected leaders' perspectives and motivations is limited to which channels, websites and news sites they frequent. These days we have to work much harder than we should have to, to actually get the "news" rather than opinion and commentary, and that absolutely is shaping the public's opinion of what is "really" going on out there. I did not mean to hijack the thread, but I thought it might be an interesting point this morning.

Good morning to all.

TSX69

Since there is no actual MMC news I thought that I would post something from the RumorMill courtesy of RolledaNSX @ TOV:

Acura gets it's own platform(precision) in 2019.
RLX and MDX(they are already setting up that move by moving the MDX production to Ohio from Alabama)
Return of CL as CLX built off that platform?

2nd gen. S2000 sold as an Acura in NA Market?(will be built in same factory as NSX in Ohio)

Next gen. ILX and TLX built off Civic/Accord platform.

Expect new Acura DOHC V6 and new trans built in Ohio.

I read this to mean the new MDX/RLX will debut in 2019 as a 2020 model, which gives it a 6 year run. This would be OK for the MDX as it is a sales success but disappointing for the RLX.

As for the MMC, I hope that they go the cheap route & just change the grille to match the new corporate face and do some plastic-changes like the tail lights. Maybe update the tech to keep it flagshipy but otherwise save the $$$ for the FMC. The 2009 MMC was the most extensive in Honda/Acura history (which I also read to mean expensive) & it really did not do much. To be fair, sales were on an upswing but then the economy crashed.

Hopefully the new platform is RWD or @ least RWD proportioned to give Acura some separation from Honda. I have no issue with them reserving it for their higher end vehicles (RLX, MDX) & leaving their entry level (TLX, ILX, RDX) FWD like how Lexus & Mercedes does, but I feel that they need a lot more models to make it work. Otherwise, I would rather they move the TLX & RDX to it as well.

Speaking of new models, I ponder if the CDX is on its way over. It would definitely help Acura's sales #s but not their image. Another (sub)entry-level luxury vehicle is not going to make them look any more premium. Granted, other brands like Lexus & Mercedes are adding more down market luxury vehicles but they have a lot more higher end vehicles to balance their portfolio.

George Knighton

I really don't care if the platform is front-bias power or rear bias, as long as it is AWD the way that the KC2 is, or some kind of vectored AWD if it is to be gasoline powered.

By 2020, though, it seems to me we should be seeing more all electric Hondas. I guess we'll see.

Volvo has achieved some success with the looks of the S90 and SC90, configuring the powertrain in a way that makes the front wheels move close to the front corners of the car and making it appear to be a rear-bias power design.

Maybe Honda can move that direction for the bigger Acura if they view it as a sales builder and they have also decided to retain the front bias platforms either because of safety and efficiency, or cost savings related to ease of manufacture.

sooththetruth

Two comments: 1. Rear drive and even rear drive biased all wheel drive seems to be the taste du jour, and so I worry that Front drive-biased all wheel drive will arrive with negative "bias". (Audi does it, though, with obvious success) 2. I really like the space efficiency (which you allude to) created when the front tires are pushed forward, and if the engine were to reside more behind the axle it would lead to more neutral handling. Finally, I hope they can find a way to optimize trunk space along with rear seat space, as that is a personal "bias" of mine. The problem with all the new electronic nannies is that they need to be packaged somewhere, and now the cars arrive with rear seats that don't go down, and with trunk space impinged on by rear batteries, and computerization. I will link to articles about new ways to create denser battery storage, but none are close to practical use, yet. Powering the Future: The next big thing in batteries - CBS News These new batteries may be a the core of the truly marketable all electric vehicle.

neuronbob

That's a long wait for a new RLX.

wstr75

Yes, it is a long wait, but characteristic of Acura.
Gen 1 1996 - 2004 (8 years)
Gen 2 2005 - 2012 (7 years)
Gen 3 2014 - 2020? (6 years?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_RL

neuronbob

^^^^
I know. However, the 1G and 2G RL were much better sellers than the RLX in any flavor. I can't imagine that Acura wants the RLX to sell a handful every month, whether they have capacity issues or not.

Meh. I suppose it doesn't matter at this point.

fuzzysig

wow Honda is stubborn...

they are actually proud of not selling their flagship sedan? wtf

all I read from that statement is

1 we are competing with other luxury sedans
2 were not gonna make a luxury sedan that other companies had success selling.
3 were not gonna give people what they want
4 we gonna continue to make weird cars that do not satisfy anyone's needs even though they are stuffed with great features.

they manage to make their flagship car into the most undesirable luxury sedan out of all the manufacturers.
sadly even I am thinking about switching to a Toyota full size sedan with a v8 because for a luxury sedan this car is not even close....
like many people said this is an accord on steroids...

even the E class has more rear seat space than rl and its not even flagship mercedes

George Knighton

It is less that there is a "capacity issue" and more that it appears they just never intended to sell a great number of KC1 or KC2. The line was never set up for high capacity and the car is so unpopular that it is hard to say that Saiyama is the reason they cannot sell more.

If you ask me, there is every indication that the KC2 was produced to test the viability of a concept while satisfying the few members of a loyal Honda oriented niche market.

Nobody has ever complained about a Legend not having enough rear seat space, and I think that if that is where your mind has gone, you are not going to be interested in the KF2 any more than you are interested in an RLX.

The market in which earlier Legend and RL appeared to do well has changed and shrunk.

If you're going to put a car into that market, in these times, it is not going to be a volume seller. You are only preserving your customers, keeping them from buying somebody else's SUV for the most part.

I agree that the V8 Toyota LS460 is an example of a very good concept overall. It is not sporty, and it is ecologically wasteful. However, it is a very high quality, well engineered vehicle that would be and should be the first choice for people who don't care about some of the things a KC2 owner would care about.

TampaRLX-SH

^^^ This.

The sedan market in general is shrinking rapidly. Premium sedans are being squeezed by the few luxury staples on one side and mainstream sedans on the other side. We have all discussed brand recognition for competing in the luxury segment. But now also, mainstream sedans come with nearly the same, and in some cases more content offerings for tens of thousands less. What makes the PAWS RLX that different in the minds of the average consumer. And who the heck knows what a Sport Hybrid is or can appreciate the engineering marvel it is? There simply is not enough to differentiate them in the minds of most consumers. For the average consumer, getting Apple Car Play in a Kia trumps Acura. I agree with George that this car was made with low volume expectations and is a niche car for the niche consumer who desires the top offering of a Honda.

fuzzysig

dont get me wrong im in love with the car.
but when i think flagship i think comfort for passengers in the back too
a sedan i can take for family trip with comfort.

and the other thing which is totally unrelated is the lack of performance upgrade options
i would love to have a vortech supercharger on this tank

alpha0

I thought many audi performance models have rear wheel bias.

George Knighton

It's a Honda. :-) In some ways, a Legend is always going to be a Super Accord. Lexus, Cadillac and Lincoln all three of them take it a step further with back seat comfort.

The Acura nameplate has always been conflicted...not being able to pick which of the dual missions is stronger, the Luxury side or the Performance side.

It's premium, perhaps, but not necessarily luxury.

It's possible that even with the future models that if you're after a sort of Cadillac or Lexus kind of experience, you'll end up leaving Acura.

If you want to increase the performance, you must be talking about a KC1. It's hard to imagine wanting to increase the performance of a KC2, or that 0-60 in 4.8 isn't fast enough.

So if you're talking about the KC1, we have to face the fact that there are limits in the design. It's just not meant to have more power.

There's a delay in the response time of the P-AWS system and there isn't any way for you to make it better. So if you add 50 HP through whatever shenanigans you're contemplating, if you get yourself into trouble in a corner you won't have time to get out of trouble. The problem is that at the increased speed and power, the delay in the P-AWS reaction time will be exaggerated. You will be responding to the emergency as if the car were exiting the corner with a particular attitude, but just as you've made that correction, the rear wheel steering takes its attitude, and you're just totally screwed.

I'm thinking the 6AT will be an issue, too. I don't think it can handle the power, first of all. And I am not aware of any tuning available for it that'd make it shift fast enough for a performance oriented application.

And a big, big problem with 360 HP or more on a KC1 is that you have no Torsen axle. No Honda Torsen axle will both fit it and be strong enough, and nobody makes a clutch pack for this transmission.

I just don't think the KC1 is the kind of car for what you're thinking.

And the KC2 already *is* the kind of car you're thinking. :-)

George Knighton

I should keep my mouth shut. :-)

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I have yet to find any situation in which having more power has crossed my mind as being needed. Typically the few seconds one can enjoy full power is way more than civilians need and can reasonably use on public roads. I would not say it is weapons grade, but way more than sufficient.

George Knighton

Civilians?

Weapons grade?

You been out to the gun range again? :-)

RLX-Sport Hybrid

GK: When I come to your neck of the woods in the summer time we can discuss in person.

holografique

That's fine if they wanted to use the flagship as their means to concept/test something with their loyal Honda oriented niche market. The problem is with the KC1, they didn't execute well on that, to the point of pissing off their loyal Honda oriented niche market and hurting the brand by having a flagship that landed on Forbes worst cars to avoid and scathing CR reports. And with the general public not knowing (or caring) about the difference in the KC1 vs KC2, and Acura's lack of marketing the differences between the two (both in messaging and in exterior product design), the KC2 ultimately failed to the demise of the KC1.

So in the end, while maybe a good strategy, they failed on execution, doing the brand more harm than good. Execution is what ultimately matters.

The LS on the other hand, wow. The new 2018 protoype looks pretty spectacular. Too rich for my blood, but knowing their execution, should continue to prove a worthy flagship of their brand.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I agree with you Holografique. If the KC2 was the only version of the RLX, the overall CR reviews would have been different and maybe more successful overall. The new LS looks crazy awesome!

holografique

Definitely. I will say though, it was interesting to me in that the 2014 SH-AWD I remember testing didn't feel significantly different from my PAWS (in terms of build-quality, handling and suspension. the acceleration was a different story ). It wasn't until the 2016 SH-AWD that I test drove that I immediately could tell it was a completely different car with radically improved build-quality to it. Night-n-day difference.

I think the ultimate killer was the product was just rushed to market. But I don't want to digress, I've beaten that horse far too many times.

Will be curious to see how the MMC turns out and whether any of those rumors TSX69 posted turn out to be true. The market is on fire right now. The stuff coming out of NAIAS is exciting.

neuronbob

I saw the 2018 LS at NAIAS today. Looks good but doesn't blow my mind, like the current one better. I sat in the Volvo S90 today, as well. Holy shit, the interior in that car is to die for. WOW. It is that good. You touch wood, IT FEELS LIKE REAL WOOD down to the grainy feeling.

Acura got some 'splainin to do to its loyal customer base.....

*apologies for language, I was imparting my immediate first thought on sitting in the S90*

Im working on a comparo post of the RLX's interior with A6, S90, E-series, Genesis. Should be up in the next few days. Suffice to say, Acura has some catch-up to play in he luxury world, and S90 wins. I'll definitely be test driving one.

RDX10

Have not gotten a chance to sit in the nee XC90 or S90 but I am absolutely in love with the interior design. From things like the open pore wood, to the leather dash and doors. It just look like a car twice as expensive as it is.

My biggest gripes with it are that it still has too much swedishness in it. What I mean by that is that the swedes tend to do things in slightly convoluted ways like for example the current top of the line XC90 doesn't even have a power tilt and telescoping steering wheel...what? Not sure if the s90 is the same but volvo has never had one on the XC90. My one MAJOR gripe is the lack of a "real" engine. This 2.0l turbo and supercharged engines seems like a piece of hyper complicated B.S. They should have stuck with a moderately sized (think 3.0l) V6 turbo engine rather than such a high strung little unit. I can't imagine that engine lasting very long with all that pressure placed on it. Another issue I have is that the AWD system is a simple sytem, no SH-AWD (love SH-AWD very much) but the Hybrid T8 models can run in 100% RWD mode because it isn't a drive shaft connected AWD system like it is on the normal models so I wonder if that RWD mode will allow for some fun.

At the end of the day, if I was in the position to be looking at the S90, I would also look at the Genesis G80/90 because I had some extended drive time behind the wheel of the 2015 genesis and HOLY CRAP that car is amazing in so many ways from a luxury perspective. Looks amazing to me with a really good AWD system and very high quality although more classic interior.

George Knighton

You know why that surprised me?

Volvo's super-safety history seems in conflict with the splintering that might be involved if that wood breaks up.

I'm sure there's an explanation, but I don't see where they've given it anywhere. I know it sounds like a little thing, but if you're familiar with Volvo's safety developments over the decades, it just sort of stands out. :-)

The overall design of the S90 and XC90 are just wonderful. Great looking and well thought out.

What bugs me is the small turbo_supercharged motor that's expected to do all of that work in a big car, together with Volvo's recent poor track record with reliability.

I don't like putting those two things together, but I guess we'll find out in a year or so if it was a good idea.

George Knighton

Talking about the wood in the Volvo also reminds me about something that happened during the in-home discussions about the Sport Hybrid that some of us had with Honda marketing and engineering.

When asked about things that I did *not* like about the KC2, I worked my way down to the fake wood.

The woman moderating interrupted at that point with, "Why does that even matter?"

She seemed cross, and I gathered that the issue of fake wood had come up more than once, and that Honda had been caught completely off guard by the issue, and that they'd never thought of it as a problem.

Of course, it's not a real problem. It's just something that you notice, something to complain about.

And the fact is, when you consider splintering and overall safety, maybe "fake" wood is the right thing to do.

Hell. I don't know. :-) It's just something to talk about with preferences. I'm not going to turn away from a Honda or Acura because of "fake" wood, unless it's really ugly, I guess.