George Knighton

LOL.... :-) I'd also like to know that.

neuronbob

I'd still get an Advance, but the Tech Hybrid is no longer "slummin' it" relative to the Advance. I'd say it was the better deal of the two trims.

Good news! Acura listened and added a heated steering wheel.

Now give us adjustable magnetic shocks and we're good.

PS--I'll take my beta-testing payment in the form of the new NSX. Thanks!

Malibu Flyer

I'd still get the Advanced also.

Please let me know where I sign up for my beta-testing payment.....I don't see a link on the Acura website.

George Knighton

I don't understand.

I've been getting my cheques very regularly.

Malibu Flyer

I think your checks are for the PAWS beta testing you did, not your Sport Hybrid.

TSX69

So AutoNews gave a timeline of new products & said this about the RLX:

RLX: A redesign is expected in 2018 as a 2019 model. Philosophically, the car won't change much from what it is now: Front-wheel drive and a V-6 carry over, as does a higher-trim hybrid variant.

Not sure what their source is or even how accurate. This would follow Acura's typical 5 year cycle for their sedans but of course, the 2nd generation RL ran for 9 years so who knows .... ?

Also, Accavitti left Acura yesterday so there is a lot of shakeup going on lately - not sure if that is good or bad to be honest.

Malibu Flyer

I wonder if this means that their will still be a MMC for the 2017 model year [in 2016]. At this point I would think that the 2017 design changes are already baked into the plan and will reflect Accavitti's philosophy -- whatever that is.

The new leadership will have time to institute their own vision for the 2019 new model. Given the recent missteps RLX rollout I am not surprised there is a change at the top. I guess the apparent success of the new MDX and TLX weren't enough to save Accavitti's job.

neuronbob

Actually, it looks like Accavitti quit, or at least that's the scuttlebutt.

The guy taking Accavitti's spot, Jon Ikeda, was the lead designer of the 2004 TL and the 2009 TL .

Gonna be an interesting summer and fall for Honda/Acura.

What it means for the RLX is unknown and as we all know, the AutoNews info above is merely speculation.

TSX69

Honda Readies Volley of New DriveTrain Tech

Honda Motor Co. is about to unleash a new round of powertrain technologies that aim to boost fuel economy and performance while burnishing the company’s reputation for innovation.

The systems range from a new-generation plug-in hybrid powertrain and 10-speed automatic transmission to a lean-combustion cycle that targets ultrahigh thermal efficiency.

They also include the company’s next hydrogen fuel cell sedan. And engineers even dangled the possibility of an all-wheel-drive, all-electric sports car, based on a Pikes Peak-climbing prototype. The rollout will unfold over the next 5 years.

Honda unveiled the technologies at its global r&d center in eastern Japan on Monday ahead of the Tokyo Motor Show.

“We’ve added a new lineup to expand our formation,” said Keiji Ohtsu, Honda’s chief officer for technology strategy.

The multipronged attack builds on the Earth Dreams family of powertrains Honda began deploying to the market in late 2012.

That makeover started with new naturally aspirated, direct-injection engines and continuously variable transmissions. Honda now is amplifying that lineup with turbocharged engines and more performance-oriented dual-clutch transmissions.

Next come more exotic technologies that enter new territory.

Plug-in promise

It starts with the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle debuting at this week’s Tokyo Motor Show and going on sale early next year.

The 0-emission, 5-seat sedan succeeds the Clarity from 2008 and foreshadows the long-term direction of Honda’s powertrain strategy, executives said.

Honda said it reduced the size of the new fuel cell stack by a 3rd, from its previous-generation technology, so that it is about as big as a 3.5-liter V-6 gasoline engine. The stack now fits under the car’s hood rather than in the center console area of the earlier Clarity.

That will enable Honda to deploy the powerplant in various vehicle types, which will help popularize the technology. Placement of the entire stack under the hood also allowed Honda to free up cabin space and squeeze in the fifth seat.

Looking further ahead, Honda is also cooperating with General Motors to develop a next-generation fuel cell system for deployment in additional vehicles around 2020.

Honda aims to wring the most from its costly investment in the FCV by using the same platform to underpin a new plug-in hybrid vehicle, Ohtsu said. That car is expected around 2018.

The plug-in will deliver at least three times the 13-miles, electric-only range of Honda’s latest plug-in, a gasoline-electric Accord. It also will allow for extended EV-mode driving on highways.

The car mates a 130-kilowatt motor and lithium ion battery to a 4-cylinder engine with a displacement of less than 1.8 liters, engineers said. The Accord Plug-In had a 2.0-liter and was dropped by Honda in the U.S. for the 2015 model year.

The next plug-in will eke extra EV range through a new lithium ion battery that boosts energy density by half, said Hideharu Takemoto, a chief engineer of electrified drivetrains.

Part of the improvement came through new cathode chemistry.

10-speed

Also on tap: a new 10-speed planetary automatic transmission for front-wheel-drive vehicles, a gearbox Honda calls a world’s 1st. That transmission will be introduced in the “near future,” Ohtsu said. He declined to give a specific timeline.

It is expected to be used in large vehicles such as the Acura RLX and Honda Odyssey, but plans have not been finalized.

Honda will build the 10-speed in-house, and it will replace Honda’s 6-speed automatic for 3.5-liter, V-6 engines.

The 10-speed is as compact as the six-speed, making it easily deployable across a wide range of vehicles, Ohtsu added.

It will boost fuel economy by at least 6 percent over the 6-speed and deliver a 14 percent improvement in acceleration, Honda said. Shifting will be 30 percent faster.

Engine evolution

Honda is reaching diminishing returns on improving fuel economy by adding more gears or bolting on turbochargers.

And that is why it also is targeting improved combustion.

Honda’s goal is a next-generation internal combustion engine that achieves thermal efficiency rates of 50 percent.

Higher efficiency means more energy from internal combustion is captured to power the wheels and less is lost through heat.

Honda’s best engines today fall just shy of 40 percent.

The gambit: A new technology Honda calls Homogeneous Lean Charge Spark Ignition, or HLSI. It improves thermal efficiency while lowering the combustion temperature to produce lower emissions of nitrogen oxides. Honda aims to deploy it by around 2020.

Engineers boost cylinder inflows for more fuel-air turbulence and then set off the mix with a higher-energy spark.

‘Tesla killer’

Finally, Honda is dabbling with an awd EV layout that delivers high-torque acceleration and torque-vectoring on all 4 wheels for extra-precise handling.

A group of young engineers spearheaded the project as an exercise to build a car to compete in the race up Pikes Peak in Colorado. They modified a CR-Z compact sporty hybrid hatchback for the job and equipped it with motors similar to the two front motors to be deployed in the upcoming NSX sports car.

After competing up the mountain, Honda is now considering possible production-vehicle applications, said Yutaka Horiuchi, the project’s chief engineer. Vehicles using the layout likely would need to be large and high end to justify the system’s cost, he said. He suggested Tesla as a possible future rival.

Joked Horiuchi: “This is our Tesla killer.”

George Knighton

Torque vectoring on all four wheels means that they've made a big, big advance with computers.

That's a very complicated formula and probably means 128-bit processing and lots of RAM.

You have to be very careful because there's a danger of the car getting locked into a continuous correction loop.

In other words, if there's a vector in the rear, then the nose might correct, then the tail tries to correct what the nose has done...and before you know it the car's uncontrollable.

So while four wheel vectoring on the face of it sounds undoable, this is very encouraging because it means there must have been a huge breakthrough in the affordability of high powered computing.

neuronbob

C'mon, now. TEN gears? Diminishing returns comes to mind. Might as well stick with CVT and its "infinite" possible gears then. The good news is that it's going to be built in house. Quality control seems to do better when it's under Honda's own roof, rather than depending on contractors, IMHO.

hondamore

^^I'll give Honda the benefit of the doubt and say that the 10 speed tranny is yet another means to attain CAFE numbers without sacrificing performance and NOT a sign of Honda's marketing department wanting in on the transmission pissing contest of who has the most gears.

Functionality will be the key...driving with a transmission that is constantly shifting or searching for the right gear can be annoying.

jwong77

I would say that would be giving Honda Marketing too much credit. Gotta go with my gut feeling that this was an engineering / r&d based decision.

fsmith

After the extra year or two it took them to get the gasoline + two motors + regen braking software on the RLX SH-AWD running correctly, I'll bet they just kept going and are now approaching the point where they know how to do this. The cost of high-powered computing is one thing, but there is a lot of smart software engineering going on to make this stuff work!

holografique

Having been in the data center / IT / cloud computing space now for 20+ years, I can definitely say that the cost of high-powered computing has and continues to go down, roughly about every 6-months.

Just look at your iPhone or other smartphone and the amount of computing power in those devices is astonishing compared to where we were just 10 years ago. If it wasn't for the overhead associated with running the glamorous OS and UI that they run, they would be far more functional in terms of processing power. You'd be amazed how much processing power those devices actually have if they were just dedicated to running some dedicated machine/assembly language based task or function...

Malibu Flyer

I second your thought.....and I think the early reviewers of the NSX would totally agree with you also.

The real question is what are they going to do with their technological achievements? Do they restrict it to the high end halo cars [RLX Sport Hybrid and NSX] or do they begin to let the technology trickle down to the rest of the Honda/Acura line? What are the cost factors...i.e. are the batteries available and at what cost for higher production/ lower price point autos? Are they waiting for more improvements in battery technology and production capacity?

Then there is the whole marketing question of the "performance hybrid". How do you market the technology to the masses since the technology produces a ride that is totally different than what everyone is used to? Even most reviewers of the NSX say the ride isn't better or worse than the "average" super car but just different. Early reviewers of the NSX seem not to be able to decide what to make of the power/handling capabilities of the NSX since it is so different than previous vehicles....and these are professional drivers with gobs of experience in driving all types of car.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

With a supercar status and a $150K price tag, the NSX can afford to have super costly and super complicated hardware.

But the RLX can't, because any increase in price, with overly complicated hardware, will put the already-out-of-touch hefty pricing even more out of touch with the reality.

getakey

the thing with software is that once you go through the R&D, its practically free to "manufacture". What is so complicated about the hardware? EVs are simple

holografique

Interesting you say that cause it looks like there are some things it can't afford to have. Although caveated as not being the "final specifications", Acura just recently posted the "specs" for the new NSX, and I was surprised to see some features missing that are in the RLX (e.g. no HUD, no automatic tilt/telescopic steering wheel, no BSI, no ventilated seats). I understand the focus of the car is more on performance and sportiness, but at $150k, I would still expect some of the above luxury/convenience options.

It was nice to see Apple Carplay listed. And these: "Flush-mounted automatic power pop-out door handles". Love to see those in action.

nsx.acura.com/specs

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Acura (or Honda) is trying hard to keep the curb weight down on the new NSX, in order to maximize its performance. So it can't have every bells and whistles as on the RLX flagship.

Currently weighting in at 3,800 lbs, the new NSX is already on the heavy side amongst its competitors.

For race applications, it is best to offer a fully stripped down version of the NSX.

George Knighton

I hope the pop out door handles are more reliable than Tesla.

CheeseyPoofs McNut

573 HP with a top speed of 191 MPH

neuronbob

^^^
Ya, it'll beat my CTS-V wagon off the line because AWD and launch mode....but I'll reel it in real quick-like.....

Oh yeah.....paper racing....

Seriously, though, given how fast the RLX Sport Hybrid takes off, and it's not even meant for that, I can't even imagine how many G's I'll have to experience with a NSX 2.0 launch.

Anyhoo, so when do I see the next RLX with NSX-type design, twin turbo 75 degree V6 engine and a 10-speed transmission?

jwong77

Lol, they missed the opportunity to sell an RS3 version where they charge 50% more and remove those luxury features

holografique

I could see that making sense if we were talking about some functionality that carried some large complex mechanical component behind it.

But automatic tilt/telescopic steering? a HUD? BSI indicators? I just dont see how any of those functions require components that carry any type of substantial weight to them. Maybe 10-20lbs at most?

But who knows...maybe they require a ton of additional parts to function.

Edward'TLS

When the car has the Ferrari's, turbo Porsche's, R8-V10's to beat, every single lb of excess weight counts.

George Knighton

Where did the idea first come from that there would be some kind of MMC in 2017?

Does anybody still think that's likely? Possible? Or do we think we won't see anything until a Fall 2018 FMC for 2019 MY?

hondamore

I believe that Acura upper management has changed significantly from the group that "launched" the RLX, so it is anybody's guess how the new group will put their stamp on the Acura flagship sedan. My personal guess would be the latter of your two options, with a slightly "edgier" RLX debuting in late 2018 or later featuring ONLY the Sport Hybrid powertrain and only two variants.

The great unknown, of course, is the global economic climate, oil prices, dollar exchange rates etc which will determine if Acura attempts to go further upscale with the RLX or sticks to the "smart luxury" theme.

neuronbob

Typical Hondacura product cycle is five years with a MMC in model year 3 or 4. 2017 would be the fourth model year for the RLX.

Of course, the model cycle for the RL/RLX is much longer than other Acuras, so it may not matter.

The question is whether the RLX needs to be clean-sheeted (i.e. started over again). Only Hondacura have the answer to that. Unfortunately, whatever change is coming is likely to be after my Sport Hybrid lease ends, and I'll end up leasing/buying another luxury brand in two years. Or maybe I'll just buy an Accord Touring.

MisterZDX

Perfect time to buy the new 10th generation Accord by the time your lease ends.

neuronbob

Or an end of life 9G Accord. I am quite the fan of the current Accord. Who knows what will happen in two years.....

Edward'TLS

The issue at hand is that Acura is still struggling to figure out how to successfully sell the RL/RLX class sedan, after already two failed attempts.

Until then, it doesn't seem financially sound to release a clean-sheeted RLX successor, only to fail again.

George Knighton

I think the Accord is a great car and I think that each design gets better. Solid, reliable choice, overall.

This is the second SH-AWD car that I have owned, however, and it has convinced me that some form of SH-AWD is the Way Ahead.

It's always going to be SH-AWD from here on out.

Now....

The bet's on if the next car is going to be another hybrid...or my first all electric.

I'll be in my grave before I can buy a hydrogen car, I think. I don't think hydrogen will make enough sense in my lifetime.

sooththetruth

It's really amazing as to how cheap fuel might be if hydrogen were to become the new standard. However I am confident the government will use the new baseline cost of fuel to heap on more taxes. I guess we should be happy if fuel doesn't just keep going up. The infrastructure of building hydrogen service stations could prove astonishingly high. Making them safe from tampering will really be as much a feat.

I watch with interest to see engineers working to prevent the first equivalent of the Hindenburg disaster. "Oh, the humanity."

Speaking of German engineering, I just want to point out that Subaru first, and then Mazda, had tried to bring diesel engines to the USA, and couldn't succeed. I almost bought an Diesel A6 this May, and didn't buy it because the trunk was a glovebox. (The Sports Hybrid had more usable trunk space, and much more comfortable interior.) But now Germany (and I hope the U.S.) will be checking the BMW's and Mercedes' for compliance, and all of a sudden I wonder if it was possible for ANY diesel to be compliant with U.S. regulations at a good enough efficiency to merit the increased price of Diesel, and the stink at fueling up.

Will be very interesting to watch, but I think we may be soon seeing a boon to Hybrid, electric and, yes, hydrogen vehicle sales. I've made a point of promising not to buy any German vehicle in my lifetime if diesel BMW's and Mercedes' prove non-compliant. Now, I know that means that standards in the USA were likely unobtainable. It seems odd to me that no Japanese company was able to make a compliant diesel....hence the focus on more efficient gas engines and hybrids.

Of course, I'll have to relent if every other car company eventually proves equally deceptive.

But it seems odd to me that 3 German companies have claimed to be meet standards, but no Japanese company. And it didn't make sense to me even before this scandal.

Malibu Flyer

The reason we may have seen more work on diesels by the German companies could be that Europe, where they sell lots more cars than the Asian companies, is primarily a diesel market. The diesel market in the US is also much smaller percentage wise than Europe. The Germans can spread the development costs over a bigger base, given their larger presence in Europe, while the Asian companies would primarily have only the US market, which is still getting used to diesels.

It will be interesting to see how VW handles future diesel models for the US. Will they be able to make a competitive diesel car for the US market or just stop importing diesels into the US?

BTW - Has anyone made a diesel hybrid? Would pairing a small diesel engine with a electric motors help meet the emission requirements?

Just my

RLX-Sport Hybrid

2017 Audi Q7 e-Tron Quattro Diesel Plug-In Hybrid: Live Photos From Geneva Motor Show

sooththetruth

I readily concede your answer is salient and likely. However, I still sincerely hope that BMW and Mercedes' diesels are as advertised. As for diesel in the United States, I think there is a huge subculture of diesel lovers, and that train was leaving the station when VW 4 cylinder was outed. That torque around town, that excellent mileage on the highway; seems that the United States, with miles of highway roads and no checkpoints, was a perfect country to build a Deutschland driven diesel dynasty.

wstr75

I agree with the subculture assessment. I also agree with your comments made earlier about how Japanese automakers did not bring diesels into the USA. Three years ago I contemplated buying a diesel car, in particular, a VW Touareg, and consciously searched on why the Touareg had the urea injection whereas the smaller VW diesels did not. About the same time a friend's late model Dodge Ram bluetec diesel bit the dust at 80K miles needing some extraordinarily expensive particulate system repairs. The engineering banter centered on the little VW diesels not requiring urea injection because of efficiencies relating to their combustion control, smaller displacement and exhaust components. I did not go any further with my assessment other than to say, huh, that is interesting, and logged it into into my memory. I had read about how a single container ship sailing in Long Beach emits a diesel emission plume of amazingly large proportions created by its enormous diameter pistons and incomplete combustion products, so I bought the argument about the small VW engines as having smaller pistons than the Touareg and similar sized Mercedes engines and thus were more efficient, pollution-wise. We now know differently. The Japanese and USA manufacturers apparently knew differently, too.

thomask

Must be really hard to figure out how to drop the price by couple of grands =D

ceb

Making a diesel that meets emission standards is easy. What isn't easy is doing that AND keeping the high mpg that makes economic sense in the US where diesel costs more than premium.

Europe is different. Over 50% or cars are diesel and diesel is about the same price - or a bit cheaper - than regular.