acura_TL2010

Rea d this linked article.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11159...s-of-2011.html
Even after the front grill modification TL"S are not selling and i think Acura should consider 4G TL as a disaster.
I know i own one of them
Any thoghts

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

The upper middle class are the bread and butter of the Acura brand. People with reduced incomes or trying to be more frugal are settling for offerings from Hyundai or other "budget" brands that now offer the same bells and whistles on paper and deliver thousands of dollars cheaper. The success of the 3G was during a financial period where every bank was writing loans on anything for anyone; look where that got us.

It's (in appearance anyway) the same hijacking Honda and Toyota put on the American brands in the 70s, just curious what their answer will be.

They re-invented the TL between 1G and 2G by building a more powerful, better equipped vehicle for considerably less money. This was mainly because the 1G TL was a bloated, overpriced car that no-one wanted, and had funky features/characteristics (I'll never understand the FWD car trying to masquerade as RWD under the hood). Different era though. I don't suspect you'll see Honda rolling down the prices on anything in the near future.

Glashub

"Seriously, with sales dropping off nearly 19% from May 2010 and TL sales off 6.8% year to date, consumers just aren't buying the TL with the same passion they did pre-tsunami."

Thats because they can't buy with the same passion. Went to a dealer Saturday and they had about 6 FED. 1 AWD. And NO Advance packages. Plus the psychology of the tsunami leads everyone to expect no inventory/deals.

Read an article yesterday that stated the 4G is the best selling TL in history. I think about 33,000 units sold in 2010.

Brother Acura

My dealer said that for the last couple of years the MDX and TSX were number 1 & 2. The 2012 TL has now taken over the second place spot for them. As stated above, he just can't get enough of them.

jasonwdp10

I think you meant the 3gtl.

or.. can't tell if sarcasm..

Glashub

My bad...I think it was Acura as a whole upon reflection. I'll try and do a search later.

potmilkz

well consider acura a low budget baller car.. its more bang for your buck than other luxury cars..

Ken1997TL

Bloated? The first generation weighed less and was shorter in exterior dimensions.

Overpriced? Japanese built vs. US The 2nd generation was a downgrade in many areas, the cost-cutting showed.

Funky characteristics? It was a reskinned Vigor with a Legend motor. The idea with the engine placement was to keep the heavy 90 degree V-6's weight behind the front axle or close to it. The engine allowed a low hood for great visibility.

I've owned a '97, '03 and '05 TL so I feel qualified to nitpick the 3 generations. We'll see if I get a 4th gen but I don't think it's likely.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

I'm going from old memory here, but I believe the 3G was actually something like 80-100lbs lighter than the 2G, shorter wheelbase/narrower frame with more interior room and trunk space, a full second faster in the 1/4 mile. , It had navigation options and standard leather, standard keyless, standard side airbags, full framed windows and noise deadening material in every panel - all things the 2G lacked....and I think the gear indicator lights all stayed lit well past 100k..

All that - and it was $3k - $5k cheaper than the prior 3.2 variant, with no 2.5 I5 option anymore - all J32 powered, where they also achieved a desirable weight balance by keeping the bulk of the engine/trans weight on a subframe balanced behind the shock towers.

Not hating on the 2G or any Acuras of the time-period; I think the Legend coupes of that era are even still one of the better looking Honda releases to land on our shores.

----

My point on the 4G sales drop off referencing the old 2G/1G changeover was that you got more car for less money; and unfortunately a less than stellar automatic transmission. I don't see them doing that again. (on either count)

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

2G Type S: 3558lb
3G TL 5AT: 3575lb

The 3G is shorter (3"-4") but wider (2").

2G Type S is just as fast as the 3G TL, if not faster. 2G TL has standard leather, keyless entry, side airbags, navi option, etc.

There's no 2.5L option in the 2G TL.

2G TL-S is about 1k less than 3G TL.

007Acura

IMO:

The economy was a lot better when the 3g came out, it also had more new features than most 2004 cars. Still has a fresh appealing design to this day.

Now there is much more competition from lower priced auto makers (like hyundai/kia) that have similar content at a more affordable price. Factor in a bad economy and a disaster in japan, it could lead to the slump in sales.

Brother Acura

I had a '93 Legend Coupe, '05 TL, '09 MDX Tech, '11 MDX Tech and now the '12 TL AWD Advance. I've loved all of my Acuras but IMO the new TL is the best Acura I've owned. I came out of a MB E350 into the 3G TL and the TL was, in many ways, a better car. However, it was a bit too small for me and I found that the interior materials and paint did not hold up as well as I expected. Time will tell, but the 4G seems superior to the 3G in every way. No question they blew it with the '09 grill but other than that I like the design.

2010_Type_SH

I bet if they come back with an Integra/RSX replacement it would sell.

JM2010 SH-AWD

My dealer is listing 35 TLs on the lot (including three 2011s). Normally they hold about 50-70 in inventory. It would seem there are fewer cars to sell.

Comparing Japanese makers' sales numbers post-tsunami to German or Korean manufacturers' sales is misleading at best. The latter obviously weren't affected by the devastation visited upon Japan. Naturally, the Germans and Koreans (and American companies) are trying to take advantage of the Japanese mfrs' supply difficulties.

(For some reason, I'd guess relating to geography, Nissan/Infiniti seems not to have suffered from the earthquake/tsunami as much as Toyota and Honda have).

It appears that Acura is offering no incentives on new TLs right now (excepting possible financing deals). True Car says the average SH-AWD transaction (non-Advance) is about 41K, depending on geography. A lot of us paid a lot less than that for our 09-11s. Acura has obviously made a decision to try to reduce their incentive outlay per unit. When you raise the price, you generally lower your unit sales.

All of this is to say there's a lot more at play at this moment than the "disaster" the OP suggests.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

My bad - We're talking 1G vs 2G here - not 2G vs 3G, I messed up my references.

Stew4HD

Isn't this thread about the 4G's not selling?

Just what car is selling right now? I see a whole lot of new Civic's with temp plates around... economy is still not great.. it is what it is

winstrolvtec

I think it's expected, they tweaked the design for those who didn't already like/own a pre MMC 4G but now don't offer the same agressive discounts and incentives in one form or another, which is heavily relied upon in this economy to be successful, for the most part anyway. They probably sparked much more interest but with no deals that people come to expect at this time, there is no real additional demand. Add in the inventory dip and that likely explains the drop in sales percentages.

I feel it's a little premature to write off the refresh and it's affect on sales. When the inventory increases and the incentives follow, we can get a better idea of how effective the refresh really is. Then again, the luxury auto market was supposed to have been coming back around in the first place but I think that was a result of incentives and interest rates hitting all time highs and lows, which are pretty much gone when it comes Japanese automakers. Unfortunately for Acura, timming has also been completely against this gen (among other things as well) and could not be any worse, not only with it's intro but also it's MMC.

The styling is/was an obvious issue but so is the fact that although the 4G may have been an improved TL, in the objective sense, it was not as competitive in the marketplace as the 3G was as a whole. The 3G during it's prime had a universally accepted and liked design, class leading HP and features (not just standard features) and was available loaded for $35k and under, which seems to be a magic number. The major drawback was the FWD platform but it was highly overlooked.

People who had the demographics for RWD didn't care that the car was FWD, they still bought it for everything considered. But it's success was very sort lived, there was a pretty big drop off by the time the MMC was released. For one thing, the economic affects had just started to work it's way into the automotive industry but moreseo, it was the addition and advancement of the RWD competition, where the FWD luxury sedans were no longer considered equal luxury competitors as a whole but were now FWD luxury sedans and grouped much more seperately and indivdually, which relegated them to a different market portion and perhaps reduced consideration in all markets and demographics.

What I find interesting, is if you account for the much more drastic economic affects in the last few years and compare the 07-08 3G sales to 4G sales, the 4G has not really been in a worse sales position. Considering these changes to the luxury segment landscape, the 3G later became a Lexus ES competitor primarily. Nowadays, owning a FWD or AWD vehicle is very dependent on your demographics, more than it was several years ago IMO.

You add the design issues, especially with what is expected to be the volume seller in the FWD (09-11), this reconsideration of FWD luxury sedans and how they compete, the addition of several key players to this FWD luxury sedan market, the fact that the 4G TL FWD was not the most competitive model, even in this FWD group until the MMC. Also, the TL as a whole trying to move upmarket with the addition of the uniquely positioned and niche based SH with increased prices in a down time, and the availability of both the TSX and Accord which are more similar and competitive to the TL now than in the past.

Also how the SH trim is more than just added AWD, where FWD shoppers (especially 3G owners) feel alienated in that the FWD didn't get the other treatments but they didn't want to move up to the SH which exceeds $40k, at least in sticker price. The timming issues mentioned above really contributed to dealers even questioning the styling and painting grills which might have taken a ripple of doubt regarding the style and turned it into a tidal wave. That also goes for the inventory issues we see now which is post MMC, that is much more accepted, but because it hasn't picked up, people still consider it a design failure as well.

Finally, Acura's brand image and marketing has never really been as strong as it should be or needs to be, which would really help overcome a lot of these issues. That is pretty much where we are at today with the TL and why it is so, at least that's my take on it.

Mr Marco

+1

jspagna1

1.BMW 3 Series
2.Infiniti G
3.MB C-Class
4.MB E-Class
5.Nissan Maxima

Your right, it is what it is. And I like living outside the box.

Edward'TLS

The sales drop is because of there's simply not enough 2012 MMC TL's to go around, due to the ripple effect of the Japanese Tsunami. I wanted to buy one, but has to wait til next month for the order to go through.

Wait til the end of the year, when the MMC TL will have gone through months of full factory supply and same incentive offers, then we can know whether the car is selling or not, compared to the pre-MMC TL.

KES

I am shopping for one now. $500 off MSRP was the initial offer which is ridiculous. Very few to choose from. Dealers are in a bind - very few cars to sell and limited incentives. Thay want top $ for the ones on their lot.

Looked at the Infiniti G and got $1800 off MSRP just walking in the door wth no negotating. BMW and Audi are next on the shopping tour.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

The 4G is the worst selling TL in history.

2G
1999 56,566
2000 67,033
2001 69,484
2002 60,764
2003 56,770

3G
2004 77,895
2005 78,218
2006 71,348
2007 58,545
2008 48,766

4G
2009 33,620
2010 34,049

JM2010 SH-AWD

These numbers appear correct, but remember that total US auto sales in 09 and 10 were down by about 30-40% or more from what they were in peak years.

pickler

so what? is this a good thing or is this a bad thing? do you work for acura? if not, then why do you care how much TLs they sell? personally i don't want to drive something thats all over the road...like the 3 series...even my neighbor's dog has a 328. all these civics and camrys on the road, i do not understand why people buy so much of same car! ffs buy something different like mazda 6! since i do not own part of honda i like that there arent many 4g acuras on the road. it makes me unique. (but there are lots of acuras here where i live tho, specially the mdx rdx and tsx)

Stew4HD

Bravo!

boe_d

So you are saying it is a good thing that Acura is selling a car that is killing their profit because it is ugly and over priced. That is good for you since not many people want them and so you get to drive a car no one else wants?

I'd rather have a nice looking car that had cutting edge electronics and a lot of bang for the buck - it doesn't matter to me if that makes the car popular. There is a reason a lot of people aren't driving around cars smeared with feces either - perhaps if you find yourself drawn to a popular car you could always do that - then you could stand out in a crowd.

Glashub

Whoa dude...why the hate?

boe_d

Sorry - didn't mean to sound too harsh - it just seemed like an odd thing to say that they were happy that the TL isn't selling well after the price went up and the exterior wasn't attractive any more and that is a good thing? I don't work for Acura but I did really like the 2G and 3G and would have bought a 4G if they had continued the trend of lots of cutting edge electronics, continuously improving nearly all features and keeping the price low. The trend is in the wrong direction for Acura right now and I like choice - I don't want to have to get a Lexus or BMW just because Acura screwed the pooch. I'd much rather that Acura quickly learn from their mistake and go back to making high quality cars as a very good price.

cahillmook

I completely agree with the budget vehicle discussion. With you gas bill rising consumers have been forced to look other places to cut cost. "If gas is expensive I cannot afford an expensive car." 7 year 100mile Kia with new progressive styling and 15k less why not. Then filling it up doesn't feel so bad. At the end of the day we are being forced to look at cars as transport and not your image. Don't get me wrong I have been an Acura guy for years in fact I own 09TL AWD and 08MDX and love them. But I promise they are the first to go if push comes to shove.

TechnoCat

Most of the time, if the world-at-large believes a product unworthy and it fails in the market, it's for good reason. If being unique was your primary goal, there were less expensive ways to get there.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

no wonder!

ChaChaCharles

Besides the fact that many have stated before about economy differences for each generation of TL, there’s other reasons TL sales have dipped.

1. Pricing: Along with how the economy has fluctuated in the last decade, you can correlate pricing with sales numbers. 1G was priced $35.5k fully loaded. 2G dropped to $30.4k fully loaded, sales dropped at 2.5G when pricing increased to $33.2k. 3G with the financial boom and only an increase to $34.8k sold awesome, but as the banks started tightening up and the 3.5G increasing to $38.4k, sales took a huge hit. 4G in a horrible market, and an increase to $43,235 asked for lower numbers. That’s a $5k increase. Now with the 4.5G and sticker of $45k, Acura is no longer looking at the same customer base as a decade ago.
If you want to see Acura churn out 50k TL’s again, they have to drop their fully loaded price point to no more than $35k.

2. Introduction of the TSX V6.

3. Dependability – Why is BMW sales numbers always high? Because you have to replace them every 4 years. Infiniti G’s numbers? Check out their interior after a few years. I can go down the list and give factors on why other models have high numbers, but the fact is that the TL is made well and reliable. TL owners have a harder decision when it comes to trading in because our cars are still in perfect working order.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

45K in 2011 is 35K with inflation in 2001. So yeah indeed a little bit more expensive, but that's for the fully loaded model. The TL's base price of $36,000 today is about $28,000 in 2001's terms. The price points aren't much different when inflation is taken into account.

I agree that the TSX V6 may have stepped on the TL's toes a bit.

I'm not sure that dependability has that type of sales effect for BMW. If anything, Acura, being the more dependable vehicle, would sell more. I think the BMW roundel image is the key seller for them. It seems like 90% of 3 series have no options on them at all. Why? Because people want to be able to be able to afford a BMW at the cheapest cost they can. Before I got my TL, I looked at CPO BMWs and NONE of them had navigation.

kenshinx24

u got that right

Edward'TLS

The reason that prices of the TSX, TL, and RL have always been going up is to do with Honda's great effort in elevating the becoming-more-and-more-"luxury" Acura brand image. Despite the popular expectation that Acura is still a value buy, in fact Acura is now no longer selling budget-priced "luxury" vehicles.

Remember how the Lexus LS400 started off at a bargain price of $40K twenty-two years ago. Since then, prices have been going up gradually to today's selling price from $67K all the way to $112K. The brand becomes a true-luxury brand and the car becomes a well received luxury car.

If Acura can drop the MSRP pricing to it's vehicles, it would have done so 6 years ago with the slow-selling RL sedan in order to rescue it's sales.

True-luxury products carry premiums. It is the premium, buyers are willing and enjoy to pay for, that makes a product a luxury item.

Acura can only offer incentives. Dropping the MSRP will only downgrade it's products' images, as well as reducing the Acura brand status to nothing but to become a budget/economy brand like Hyundai.

Edward'TLS

This I have to disagree.

The 2G TL/CL is one prominent exception which has a poorly designed Honda transmission.

In fact, I'm more than willing to get rid of it, because every time a slight hiccup with the gear shift will make me worry about the prospect of having to cough out $4K for a potential tranny rebuild job.

BT9

Been lurking for a while, thought I'd chime in. I'm in the market but still looking at several makes/models. A common theme I see on other new car purchase forums when the TL is mentioned is it's hideous looking.

So, in spite of all the commercials on the redesign, old memories are hard to erase. Most people still not aware there was a redesign.

The new TL commercials are kind of lame (the woman skier and the football player) and spend too much time on those celebs and too little time on photos/videos of the car.

ChaChaCharles

@cjTL - I don't think inflation can be used too much to calculate car values or many things that are higher in pricing. Acura and most car brands account for inflation by raising the price a few hundred dollars each model year of the same generation styled car. With remodels, pricing changes more dramatically due to new technologies and whatnots.

Look at the sales figures you provided. The first sharp decrease actually came at 2007, with the 3.5G. Besides it being the year the financial institutions started their collapse, I think what hurt the numbers further was the introduction of the Type-S.

Many people wanting to go with Acura over Honda is for the extra bells and whistles. They were EX owners wanting more out of Honda, so they will get the fully loaded, top of the line models. When it was only 3G TL Tech for about $35k, it was a great deal to feel more luxurious. Then came the Type-S, making the top tier TL $38.5k. I really think that $35k is a magic number when it comes to who will buy and who won't buy when it comes to middle class families.

As for BMW numbers, I wasn't saying everyone has to get new ones because they break down, but it sure help when you have to replace the car more frequently and you just can't look past the badge envy. I would like to see sales numbers for all cars, not including leased. I bet Acura would be one of the leaders in that financial report.

@Edward'TLS - I agree with your comments on Acura's image and price raising. I think it's good for them, but they actually messed up pricing the 3G too low if they were looking for future trending. The increased should've been around $5k if they didn't want to see such a contrast in sales figures in future generations.

And I was actually going to insert an asterisk mark in for the 2G model because I heard about the tranny issues haha. Other than that, I believe Acura's reputation in reliability is above par with competitors.

rxyamahax1

"The BMW 5 series. Not only did the $45,000 5 series' 4,200 May sales nearly double the 2,197 sales that month for the TL, but the 5 series' sales were up 83% from last may and more than 74% year to date."

The 5 series is one of Acuras competitors and yet this article indicates BMW has seen a steep increase of sales despite the economic crisis. If you are or on the verge of becoming an economic casualty you are not going to buy a BMW 5 series but then again why not when the TL costs almost as much and with the right features just as much as the BMW 5 series. Not to mention that the maintenance probably costs more than Acura's does. So why are people buying the 5 series over the TL?

I think it has to do with the design or redesign of the cars. Obviously majority of the consumers really liked what BMW did with their 5 series as opposed to the TL's redesign.

Stew4HD

I still can't help but wonder ... WHO CARES????????.. you guys go on and on about this but is changes nothing!

BMW is the flavor of the month.. get over it. People want to spend more to be in the "In -Crowd".. so what?

Sheesh... go drive your TL and know you aren't a Lemming or go buy a BMW and join in.

Acura has never been a top seller. Why doe sthat seem to shock folks now?

I drive an awesome car that has the best in class dependability and looks better than all of the others... gah!