If you are going to be doing the E-Tune, i would say i would flog the thing pretty good on the street to get the heat soak into the entire engine. From there i would get the logs for tuning. Without the motor going into all of the different forms of heat issues to be causing the retarding etc.. you may not be getting an adequate tune to compensate

 

Could you link some of these discussions. Ive run both with and without them and would like to see what other people think

 

They can contribute to detonation if you have higher than normal oil temps from not running a cooler. Thats not to say that they are THE cause but definitely can be a factor.

 

I just googled something like "oil squirters good or bad" and read a couple of comments from people in car forums. Don't remember which. Anyone know if the new nsx uses them?

 

Just did a little reading and its pretty mixed. One guy said if you're running methanol then you would want to plug them anybody know why? KN, gerzand, highspeed, you guys still got your squirters? One thin i would be nervous about is the pistons skirt being narrow on the non thrust side. Thats a good sized piece of material to remove from that part of the piston when there isnt much there to begin with.

 

J32A3 don't have them.

 

I have mine operational and havent had issues

 

Your on forged internals right?
If so do you have asymmetrical skirts? And what brand.

 

For what it's worth the 2JZ's have oil squirters

 

Yes and yes and custom Wiseco. Its my base Wiseco specs (aside from dish and sometimes overall diameter) that everyone is using on here (KN_TL and HiSpeed).

 

your specs are in your thread right?

 

https://acurazine.com/forums/perform.../#post15695225

 

@ Gerzand What about those other pistons you showed me are those big $$$$ would it be worth it ?

 

Well got the new block broken down and ready to go the the machine shop tomorrow. Ended up jamming a finger into one of the sharp ass edges of the block. Nothing i couldn't fix with some superglue and swear words.









Noticed that another spot on piston 6 was staring to fail. Its strange how it looks like it was being pushed up. I wonder if i was having excess piston slap from the really loose clearance i was running.

 

Blocks are like handling ginsu knives by the sharp side.

When I was washing out my block I sliced my hands all over the place.

It could be the ring ends came together and pushed this up?

 

This would be my first guess as well.

What was your ring gap, do you recall?

I'm sure most of us know the heads that create such havoc on all later model j-series with the single port exhaust. They were engineered and designed for the sole purpose of improving both fuel economy and emissions, not performance. Any performance enhancements are (IMO) a direct result of the first two factors. This, however, is true to an extent. The single exhaust port measures roughly to around two of the three exhaust ports seen in the j32a2 multi-port head. The latest designs being even smaller! So they're restrictive at higher power levels (airflow) and this is due to Honda focusing on torque. Smaller ports generally provide quicker flow rates at lower engine speeds. That's easy to see.

Secondly is the heat load brought onto the cooling system by the later model single port heads. The heads were designed for primarily two reasons: decreased time in catalyst activation and engine warmup. Mounting the catalyst literally within inches of the exhaust valves lights them off in no time at all. Then, having coolant recover thermal waste from exhaust gases aids in the fight of warmup speed. So first, coolant pulls heat from the block then into the heads only to absorb the massive amounts of heat from the heads "Integrated Exhaust Manifold" which leaves very little left for the cooling of the combustion chambers.

This all adds up to quite a lovely concoction of decreased exhaust flow and coolant heat saturation which wouldn't be hard to see what the end result is going to be. Anybody guess what that is? How about increased combustion chamber temps! Perfect for splitting ring lands, cracking pistons, scuffing cylinder walls, butting rings, and making one hell of a monster to tune on forced induction! Say hello to an endless fight against detonation (most of which is never even seen because it's in the form of thermal saturation). Your best weapon is either port the exhaust to its max limits, switching to e85 or water/meth injection (or even BOTH), staying under 8lbs of boost especially on stock internals and NEVER letting coolant temps ride of 200 degrees, period! I've made the decision to go another route and swap on some j32a2 heads even if it means ridding the motor of my beloved j37a4 heads. Sad but I'm tired of constantly having to tune for safety because if I venture to far from there, I know destruction is right around the corner. F*ck these heads and everything about them. Anyone remember GM doing some creativeness with the LT1 (I think?) and reversing the flow of water so that the heads chambers are cooled before the block and the effects it gave the engine in regards to power...not to mention reliability UNDER power? This may be another idea for anyone as sick of the issue as I am. I've even pondered the thought of drilling/tapping threaded ports in the rear of the heads (opposite side of where the thermostat is mounted) so that a separate plumbing system (same cooling system though) can provide cooler water to the heads using its own pump and heat exchanger. Ugh....

 

I thought that the rings might have butted. But i cant be sure cause i lost pieces of the rings in the failures and cant look for any of the symptoms. I was talking with a local guy about the pistons and he said that it sounds a lot like pre ignition. Where fuel would condense and run down the side of the crown and into the first ring land. Eventually it would get hot enough to ignite and push up on the crown eventually breaking it on the thin spot.

 

Isn't Honda using the single port heads on the boosted nsx engine? How do they do it there?

And IIRC the j35a8 heads still flow better than the j32a2 heads no?

 

Like any design, it can improved upon or (more probable) tuned around. Also, I'm quite certain that the compression ratio on the NSX has been reduced down to a more appropriate level. I'm not saying it's impossible, just saying it's impractical to do with the j-series single port heads. I (we) don't know enough about the NSX to really comment on this too much but let's just say it could've been easily designed in a manner that better suits forced induction.

As far as the heads airflow potential, it's my opinion (which is NOT backed up by flow data but real world events) that the j35a8 and alike head design can be made to flow quite well for NA engines and in stock form they DO OUTPERFORM multi port heads. However, in a forced induction application, I do not feel they perform as well.

If anyone has ever read in the k-series forums on the same exact topic concerning the single and multi port exhaust heads, the general consensus does not differ. In fact, I've noticed more k-series tuners experiencing harsh issues when tuning the single port heads and just like the j-series, they too suffer from piston ring land related issues and detonation that seems unmanageable unless tuned with e85. Unfortunately, these people don't have the ability to convert these newer k24zX and k24wX engines to multi port exhaust heads like we can with the j-series as the block design changes along with the head when Honda designed the engine(s).

To add to the argument, HPD runs these single port heads with their engines and "reliably" make 500-550hp under moderate boost levels HOWEVER they do replace the pistons and rods with aftermarket forged components so that should tell us all something. In addition to this, they run around 100 octane fuel and tune using McClaren or Motec ecu's which can have massive advantages in reliability. IMO, it's self explanatory that these motors are ultimately being destroyed by excessive heat. Nothing else really to say.

 

That seems to be in disagreement with how Vit describes the K series single port motors. I've read where he said they are easily making 400WHP on stock bottom ends, which is a higher HP per cylinder than the J would be making at even 500 HP.

I'm not saying I disagree with you though, because I've yet to really see a single port J setup be exceptionally reliable.

Is your decision to switch to multi port heads solely based on what you have seen here, or have you been experiencing tuning issues or failures as well? I'm not fully convinced that I need to go to the trouble of a head swap for reliability.

Before I considered the head swap, I'd seriously consider a K swap. If I want 400+ WHP easily and reliably, a K motor can, and has done it many times over, and many times more than a J. Apparently the TL subframe is a direct bolt on in a TSX - that would lead me to think the TSX bolts into a TL.

Imagine all the benefits of K series - mostly due to cost. Cheaper clutches, more available parts,etc. And, it would be different - rarely do you see someone going to a 4 cylinder.

Before people yell "but no torques!" - the TL isn't THAT much heavier than the TSX - maybe 100 - 150 lbs. Put a few people in a TSX and it's carrying the same weight. Once turbo'd, there's less concern anyways as it boosts torque. Not to the 400 or 500 range, but even mid 250s is fine.

Just another option...

 

My search for E85 locally has begun.......

 

They're about $1000 and are a serious heavy duty piston from custom forgings derived from a 1300whp evo8 build that a friend races.

 

Would it be possible to order those bad boys through you or do we have to go through that website? I have the block at the shop now getting a hone for the rings that they come with.
Going to swap the valves i got from you into those rl heads. I heard the RL cams have more lift. Should I use those or should I use my type s cams. Probably gonna try to sell the other set to recoup the money lost in the rebuild.

 

I ordered mine thru NoLimitMotorsports. With the coated skirts and upgraded pins I paid just over a grand.

 

He's referring to a different set. Also, it doesn't look like you saved any cash by going through them. What was the motivation?

DJ - check your facebook messenger.

 

We dont go through that many..............

 

Ok......... maybe we do

 

I'm not sold on the single port head being the problem. I would say to keep your j37a heads robert and port the exhaust side as much as you possibly can. Really though it comes down to running water/meth and E85. Keeping coolant under 200 like you said. And making sure exhaust flow is a priority. Larger A/R and turbine and dealing with the lag that comes with it, and larger than what is ideal downpipes and exhaust.

I will be joining you guys soon enough with a boosted single port so I will hopefully be able to contribute more then.

 

I concur with keeping ECT temps under 200 degrees F, I recently ran into and issue with my TL. The tube from the over flow reservoir fell off the cap this allowed the coolant to fill the overflow reservoir but not return to the radiator, this caused my ECT to be higher than normal since level and coolant flow was not optimal. I experienced a few mis fires, I believe the ECU played a part in the issue or the single port J's are very temperamental about elevated ECT temperatures.

 

IN BOLD



Any finally, in a semi related topic, I have something new to add to the minds of people's entertainment on this whole discussion we've been having here.

The topic is called exhaust reversion (including the process of exhaust blowdown and its effects on boosted engines. This is a theory that more or less applies to anyone with an engine that has integrated exhaust manifold cylinder heads running any form of forced induction and it's plausible ill effects it may cause to one's engine reliability.

Exhaust reversion is essentially a process that encourages exhaust gas cross contamination from one cylinder to another by means of either an exhaust restriction and/or scavenging effect from camshaft profile. A exhaust restriction can cause this by simply not allowing a cylinders exhaust pulse to easily be evacuated but instead be forcefully fed over into another cylinder. This effect can be amplified especially when the camshaft profile has more overlap and/or duration of which would allow these exhaust pulses to be pushed into another cylinders combustion chamber. Anyone can see how easily this process can happen especially on a turbocharged setup where the exhaust manifold is almost always in a state of pressure due to restriction from the turbo.

The problem is that these reverted gases can cause an obvious loss in power by filling chamber space with deoxygenated hot air. And because this air is extremely hot, another issue arises due to the possibility of this heat being absorbed by pretty much anything in the chamber (piston, liner, valves, etc...) thereby becoming a catalyst to knock.

Some of you may have read Honda mentioning the use of camshafts with "increased duration" and one official press release that mentions a "49% increase of duration" between two year models! No telling how much more the duration was increased between other year models but Honda does make mention of this being part of the changes in nearly ALL newer models. Namely on the VTEC lobes. That being said, I think the possibility of intense exhaust reversion happening on turbocharged applications is very likely. Could this be why so many more people are more successful with older multi port exhaust j-series engines than with mono port cylinder head designs? This combined with the other issues I've mentioned in previous posts on this thread, no wonder most of us all are either hitting walls in tuning or engine damage/failure. Just saying....

To OP, please let me know if you want this discussion moved elsewhere. I do not mean to disrespect you or disrupt the original intention of your thread. Sorry in advance if I have done either.

 

Great discussion Robert. I think you could definitely be onto something with regards to the exhaust reversion, especially considering how much smaller the port is for the J vs the K motors.

I know there is a full thread of Gerzand's doing the multi port head swap - but the Cliff's notes (that's TL;DR for you millenials) - isn't there quite a bit of block machining needed to use them?

 

Do any of the J and R turbo have this issues? I am thinking it is a manifold issue. The one that come directly off the heads seem to have more problem with exhaust reversion because of the turbo is creating a lot of back pressure. The longer manifold seems to be enough to avoid the backpressure. Just my .02

 

madogtheta Had 15 foot long manifolds (rear mount) and also killed his forged pistons,
We have been looking at the intake manifold as a big factor in our cylinder 5&6 failure, look at the front bank of cylinders in the manifold it has a much shorter plenum and cylinder 6 is 3+ inches closer than cylinder 3 to the throttle body, we will be building a manifold to fix this problem.
We will look at cam overlap closer but at first look it looks like there is none on low cam we haven't checked high cam yet but we will.

 

Don't have any time for discussion tonight but I figured I'd lay this link right here after reading your post: Custom J Series Intake Manifold J30 J32 J35 J3 | eBay

Lmk if you have any interest in it.

 

Dual TB one for each cylinder bank!

 

Thanks
We are working on a manifold that will fit under the hood we will post up when we start getting things done

 

Bump engine build still in progress

 

 

 

This thread is still worthless WITH pics.