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I'm wondering if this is just the way the car is, or if I should consider looking into it more. The manual trans has two mild, but strange, things going on.
1. Third gear at lower RPMs (1,400 to ~2.700) the car will bog/pulse as it accelerates. Its hard to explain but its almost like being in a gear at too low of rpms. The car kind of rocks back and forth during this process. It doesn't seem to be a problem of clutch work in my opinion. This also slightly happens in fourth gear. Does not happen in any other gears. The solution? Go into 3rd at higher RPMS (3K). Because of the very annoying rev hang, I generally find myself driving slower and shifting slowly to avoid the RPMs raising during shifts, thus shifting into gear at a lower RPM.
2. The clutch behaves different as it warms up. I've made very minor adjustments to the nut in the clutch assembly to remedy this (didnt fix it). I soppose I could get more aggressive on the adjustment. When cold, I love the way the clutch grabs. The beginning of its biting point is pretty much dead center of the clutch pedal throw. As the car warms up, it only bites in the first 20% of the throw. It's manageable, but I find the more center of the clutch pedal easier/confortable on my leg.
Does anyone have similar experiences? These are very small concerns and most likely normal operation., but since they came to mind on my lunch break, I wanted to ask the community what they thought
i have owned my 6MT TL for almost 7 years now.
I know you own the TSX, but just wanted to relate to you, that my clutch is VERY inconsistent. I have the same thoughts as you, when cold it grabs nice! and then from there, the engagement point is different as I drive more throughout the day
I don't have a solution but I'll share my experience. I have a manual 2010 with around 42,000 miles on it that I bought new.
There are times where I will grind my 3rd gear for whatever reason but I've not experienced anything like you are describing above in number 1.
My clutch engagement is also inconsistent but opposite of what you or Justn are describing. Back when the car was only a year or 2 old I drove through some flooded streets in my neighborhood on the way to work. The water was deep and I remember thinking I made the wrong choice trying to drive through it. Luckily I didn't stall but the clutch engagement felt like it was slipping the rest of that day on every shift. For example I could over rev the shift from 3rd to 4th to induce the shuddering. I imagined that I had let water seep into the case that houses the clutch plate and flywheel and that was the cause of what I diagnosed as a slipping clutch. It did disappear in the upper gears within a day or 2 but to this day during cold startups the first few 1st gear shifts are accompanied with a shudder as if the clutch is slipping making it impossible to make a smooth 1st gear take off from a stop. It completely goes away after a few minutes though and shifts as expected so it was never a big enough problem for me to have it checked out. Now that I'm out of warranty its just a characteristic I've gotten used to.
Is this significant too early to go into third? 1,400 is about where I'd be on a cold engine not trying to go past 2k.
Yeah man too early, you are prolly bogging down the engine. I just glanced at where I am shifting on my way home, and just normal driving I shift between 3-5k from 2nd to 3rd. You can shift lower, but you should not expect any type of acceleration... I mean you idle at 1500 on a cold start, just think about being in 3rd gear at that low of rpm. Manuals are different in their Rev operation than automatics, you need to rev higher so that you can properly disengage from the engine, and re-engage smoothly once the RPM drops. Just my
Manual owner here as well, 2010 Bought brand new, 99,000 miles on her now. On the first problem absolutely. The acceleration under light acceleration is anything but a smooth arc. it's done this since new. And like you said not the clutch, seems to be an issue with the DBW or perhaps just the maps of the PGMFI.
The second issue, at high RPM's it will not go into second if you aren't slow to shift, and third will do the same, but less of not being able to get into it. Usually just a grind. Acura tells me my clutch needs to be replaced. Ironically I had a 1993 Accord that I put 364,000 miles on and replaced the clutch once. So before you go and say it's my driving, I doubt it, and I definitely beat on the Accord more because It didn't grind into gears.
And just a FYI the manual suggests the following shift points:
Manual owner here as well, 2010 Bought brand new, 99,000 miles on her now. On the first problem absolutely. The acceleration under light acceleration is anything but a smooth arc. it's done this since new. And like you said not the clutch, seems to be an issue with the DBW or perhaps just the maps of the PGMFI.
The second issue, at high RPM's it will not go into second if you aren't slow to shift, and third will do the same, but less of not being able to get into it. Usually just a grind. Acura tells me my clutch needs to be replaced. Ironically I had a 1993 Accord that I put 364,000 miles on and replaced the clutch once. So before you go and say it's my driving, I doubt it, and I definitely beat on the Accord more because It didn't grind into gears.
And just a FYI the manual suggests the following shift points:
I had those same high rpm lockout issues when shifting to second and third. Used to only happen to me when shifting at or near redline and it drove me nuts. I think it was joe that I asked who had similar issues that were resolved with a new clutch, so I went ahead and replaced mine at 90k miles even though everything else about the clutch felt fine. Thought it was the synchros the way it was acting but there was no grind just lockout. Needless to say I took the advice and the stock clutch was fried when we pulled it. Went with an exedy stage 1 and haven't had that lockout issue or any issues since. I have almost 60k on the stage 1 clutch already as well
I'm wondering if this is just the way the car is, or if I should consider looking into it more. The manual trans has two mild, but strange, things going on.
1. Third gear at lower RPMs (1,400 to ~2.700) the car will bog/pulse as it accelerates. Its hard to explain but its almost like being in a gear at too low of rpms. The car kind of rocks back and forth during this process. It doesn't seem to be a problem of clutch work in my opinion. This also slightly happens in fourth gear. Does not happen in any other gears. The solution? Go into 3rd at higher RPMS (3K). Because of the very annoying rev hang, I generally find myself driving slower and shifting slowly to avoid the RPMs raising during shifts, thus shifting into gear at a lower RPM.
2. The clutch behaves different as it warms up. I've made very minor adjustments to the nut in the clutch assembly to remedy this (didnt fix it). I soppose I could get more aggressive on the adjustment. When cold, I love the way the clutch grabs. The beginning of its biting point is pretty much dead center of the clutch pedal throw. As the car warms up, it only bites in the first 20% of the throw. It's manageable, but I find the more center of the clutch pedal easier/confortable on my leg.
Does anyone have similar experiences? These are very small concerns and most likely normal operation., but since they came to mind on my lunch break, I wanted to ask the community what they thought
1.) 4cyl NA engines often don't respond well to lower revs. This one has drive by wire and adjustable cam and ignition timing. Instead of allowing knocking like an older ECU would, the ECU will back off the throttle input gain momentarily, in order to adjust for existing available AFR and timing. Then it will adjust the AFR and timing in order to give you your throttle position without knocking.
Bog it if you want. The car will adjust for it. 1400RPM probably isn't ideal...but I wouldn't sweat it too hard. Drive like you want.
2.) The clutch engagement position shouldn't change too much. Honda specs an initial pedal freeplay of 6mm or so. 6mm usually just accounts for the movement of the master cylinder piston til it uncovers the port. So 6mm is "zero" freeplay.
Don't adjust tighter than 6mm (or whatever the manual says) or you'll wear the clutch very quickly.
If you like the clutch to engage with the pedal closer to the floorboard...use MORE freeplay. But don't over do it or you'll wear the synchros very quickly.
I have more issues with the lazyassed throttle response than I do with clutch engagement point. Are you perhaps confusing these two parameters? It may feel like the clutch is responding differently...but its actually the throttle response difference that puts your feet out of rythm.
i have owned my 6MT TL for almost 7 years now.
I know you own the TSX, but just wanted to relate to you, that my clutch is VERY inconsistent. I have the same thoughts as you, when cold it grabs nice! and then from there, the engagement point is different as I drive more throughout the day
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one, even someone else with a different drive train can compliment what I am talking about.
Originally Posted by cu2wagon
The change in bite point sounds like it could be air in the system.
This is on the to do list along with a brake fluid flush this spring. Regardless if this fixes the issue I want it done for piece of mind. I'll use basic Honda dot 3 for the clutch and nice ATE dot 4 for the brake lines.
Originally Posted by ssjoeboe9
Yeah man too early, you are prolly bogging down the engine. I just glanced at where I am shifting on my way home, and just normal driving I shift between 3-5k from 2nd to 3rd. You can shift lower, but you should not expect any type of acceleration... I mean you idle at 1500 on a cold start, just think about being in 3rd gear at that low of rpm. Manuals are different in their Rev operation than automatics, you need to rev higher so that you can properly disengage from the engine, and re-engage smoothly once the RPM drops. Just my
You're right, there have been many times where I'll proceed through a busy 4 way stop sign and noticed that I'm as slow as a turtle. I generally shift first to third as well. Only use second if I'm driving spirited or navigating and area where I know I will not need to go fast (parking lot).
I know that these engines are stout. Even when warm I generally don't go past 3K. Of course sometimes I do, but it's pretty rare unless I'm late for work.
Originally Posted by briq456
Manual owner here as well, 2010 Bought brand new, 99,000 miles on her now. On the first problem absolutely. The acceleration under light acceleration is anything but a smooth arc. it's done this since new. And like you said not the clutch, seems to be an issue with the DBW or perhaps just the maps of the PGMFI.
The second issue, at high RPM's it will not go into second if you aren't slow to shift, and third will do the same, but less of not being able to get into it. Usually just a grind. Acura tells me my clutch needs to be replaced. Ironically I had a 1993 Accord that I put 364,000 miles on and replaced the clutch once. So before you go and say it's my driving, I doubt it, and I definitely beat on the Accord more because It didn't grind into gears.
And just a FYI the manual suggests the following shift points:
Great info. I can fortunately say that I do not have a first to second - second to third issue. At high rpms it doesn't jump for joy when I slam it in second, but it pretty much always goes in.
Thanks for sharing those shift points! I'll give that a shot tonight.
Originally Posted by ssjoeboe9
yeah, new clutch fixes lockout issue.
For giggles, what does a new clutch installed run at the stealership? I looked up how to replace them on the TSX and it looks like a total PITA.
Originally Posted by Roland_Bluntzs
1.) 4cyl NA engines often don't respond well to lower revs. This one has drive by wire and adjustable cam and ignition timing. Instead of allowing knocking like an older ECU would, the ECU will back off the throttle input gain momentarily, in order to adjust for existing available AFR and timing. Then it will adjust the AFR and timing in order to give you your throttle position without knocking.
Bog it if you want. The car will adjust for it. 1400RPM probably isn't ideal...but I wouldn't sweat it too hard. Drive like you want.
2.) The clutch engagement position shouldn't change too much. Honda specs an initial pedal freeplay of 6mm or so. 6mm usually just accounts for the movement of the master cylinder piston til it uncovers the port. So 6mm is "zero" freeplay.
Don't adjust tighter than 6mm (or whatever the manual says) or you'll wear the clutch very quickly.
If you like the clutch to engage with the pedal closer to the floorboard...use MORE freeplay. But don't over do it or you'll wear the synchros very quickly.
I have more issues with the lazyassed throttle response than I do with clutch engagement point. Are you perhaps confusing these two parameters? It may feel like the clutch is responding differently...but its actually the throttle response difference that puts your feet out of rythm.
How can I measure the 6mm spec for the clutch?
Great to know that bogging isn't necessary a guarantee for knock like it was on older cars. I honestly didn't think under light acceleration I was bogging the car down. I'm going to avoid enterering gear this low.
Oh not to mention, when the engine is cold, above 2k rpms I get the lovely VTC actuator squeel. I just had the damn thing replaced too.
Good point too, it certainly could be lazy throttle response. It's has a mind of its own sometimes, so it certainly could be influenced/caused by my throttle position. I've had a few pros (one Honda speed shop owner and one Acura tech) drive the car, and both got out of the car and handed me the keys and said your car is fine haha. Getting used a 4cyl is really different than the American V8s I am used to. Still love the car for what it is though
As a car engineer I would like to comment on Honda/Acura 4-cylinder engines, particularly the TXS engine (K24). Honda engines with VTEC are by design high-revving engines producing max. power at 7K (K24) or 8K (K20 in Civic Si). It is to the credit of their designers that such engines will kinda "pull" (or tolerate running) from low revs below 2K but it needs to be remembered that at such low revs these engines produce just a fraction of their full power. They are much happier to spin at 3K or above and fuel consumption and exhaust emissions are calibrated to be low at these revs. I personally believe that running them at low revs under partial or full load will not do them any good in the long run.
Of course, there are car engines designed to produce lot of power at lower revs (e.g. older V8s or diesels) but typically they have larger swept volumes (cubic inch capacity) or turbos and such. I do not quite understand why people buy powerful small engines with 7 or 8K redlines and run them in a way that gives them no more than 15-25 % of full usable power. No wonder acceleration is well below par. When this happens, try dropping 2 gears, get in the power band and let the engine activate VTEC and start singing to redline. This is how their designers expected them to be run.
The chart at the bottom of this post shows the relationship between revs and road speed for Honda Accord Euro/Acura TSX (K24, 6MT). It is easy to find revs for various road speeds at given gear, eg. 17 mph (27 kph) in the first gear makes the engine run at 4500 rpm and this is recommended by Honda for usphifts to second gear as I can see from the table in post 8 above. Full size chart is here (takes a while to load).
I was able to solve the inconsistent clutch feel by the simple removal of the CDV (clutch delay valve) - Web search shows how to do it. The more serious and to me the most annoying issue of rev hang where revs dropped way to slow when upshfting at high revs I was able to solve by the install of a small electronic circuit of my own design I called QREVS. I spend some time investigating the rev hang and published my findings here.
Wow. Great input. I can't speak to the validity per se, but that seems consistent with what I've heard in the past and what I've experienced.
Since you mentioned it, I'm curious who/what your automotive background is. Did/do you work for Honda or another manufacturer? Very cool to get first hand knowledge. Thanks!
Glad you found my contribution of some value. In my 40-odd years long career in auto industry I worked for a while as a compliance engineer for Toyota.
Do you want to try my QREVS module for Accord CU2 (K24 with 6 M/T)?
Just so there's no confusion, I wanted to make sure you understand that if you are intending to offer anything for sale, you must make a post in the black market (For Sale section of this site) and that any sales that are commercial in nature would require a vendor account.
I'm not accusing or implying anything, as you seem knowledgeable and interested to share your findings. But we've had issues in the past with folks/vendors coming in and doing similar, but more subversive solicitation and it usually ends with a ban.
As we welcome your knowledge and participation, I don't want to see you banned erroneous. Please feel free to PM me if you need more info.
Do you want to try my QREVS module for Accord CU2 (K24 with 6 M/T)?
Thanks for taking the time to write up this excellent information. I am very interested in your product. I have seen your product/web page in the past. Where can I find more information on the installation of this device? I looked at the wiring diagram, but I couldn't seem to find information on if there is a plug and play harness, or if the end user is required splice/solder wires. Coincidentally, I also have a 2012.
Just so there's no confusion, I wanted to make sure you understand that if you are intending to offer anything for sale, you must make a post in the black market (For Sale section of this site) and that any sales that are commercial in nature would require a vendor account.....
I understand your concerns. I do not have a product to sell. I believe I came up with a technical solution to what I experienced as a problem. Various websites contain posts by car users complaining of the same car behaviour and that's how I found acurazine.com. When I posted about my solution on other sites, I mostly found incredulity expressed in the worlds like "No OEM or major after-market company can fix this, how could you", and in one instance outright hostility. This came from the moderator running a popular major Honda website for one particular vendor selling expensive product without disclosing to the site users the purely commercial nature of the site. Just a mere mention I made that an alternative way of solving the rev hang issue may exist was seen as a commercial threat to their enterprise and I was told to refrain from providing any further technical information.
At present I seek opinions about the usefulness or otherwise of my QREVS module to confirm my personal findings that it, indeed, works to remove/significantly reduce rev hang in all three vehicle makes, including Honda, I tested it in so far.
....... I looked at the wiring diagram, but I couldn't seem to find information on if there is a plug and play harness, or if the end user is required splice/solder wires. Coincidentally, I also have a 2012.
Install is in 2 parts: connection to fuel injectors is handled by easily removable plug-and-play extension harness and connections to engine sensors are most easily accessible near the ECM and must be soldered. No original wires get cut.
I think the pedal mod. It's 2019, still love my tsx but the throttle lag is annoying. I've gotten used to it/the gearbox/clutch over the years but every once in a while I wonder if I just suck at driving manual due to inconsistency...
Also quick note. As silly as it sounds a K&N drop in air filter makes a huge difference in low RPM engine bogging. I pulled the one I put in for a paper filter and it was terrible.
I think the pedal mod. It's 2019, still love my tsx but the throttle lag is annoying. I've gotten used to it/the gearbox/clutch over the years but every once in a while I wonder if I just suck at driving manual due to inconsistency...
Also quick note. As silly as it sounds a K&N drop in air filter makes a huge difference in low RPM engine bogging. I pulled the one I put in for a paper filter and it was terrible.
Cool thanks a lot all do that then till i get a cold air intake oh by the way is there any good cold air intake out there for 2010 tsx 2.4 ? And is it normal to push the cluch pettle all the way to the floor so i do not grind gears because it only has 130k on it there know way the cluch would be worn out already and it graps close to the bottom when you take the cluch pettle out any idea would be grate and thanks.
My car bogs if I stay in second gear (not changing down too 1st) and give it too much gas. This only happend after I used a Hondata Flashpro. Thhis helped reduce the above mentioned rev hangs as well as the 1st to 2nd gear lockout when banging gears. I do concur with a better air filter giving more help on low rpm engine pickup. I have an AEM CAI, routed to the fender-well.
01-12-2017, 01:07 PM
