Tesla1856

I hear alot about Audi and the other European-makes but not much about Lexus.

Lexus is still good, right ?

Is there a Lexus mid-sized sedan that comes comes with AWD, for less than $50k ? Sorry to put it like that, but I haven't looked at Toyota/Lexus since my days driving my Celica (and admiring the old Supras). Not small like Acura-ILX or Audi A3. More like Acura-TLX or Audi A4. I looked at the website, but I don't understand how the model designations work.

fiatlux

Yes. Many.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The natural competitor to the TLX is the Lexus IS. I personally think the Lexus IS is getting long in the tooth as I believe the current generation was from 2014. I think Lexus is trying to claim the 2021 IS is a new model, but it's more like a refresh to me.

It retains the same basic structure, same engine choices, slightly updated styling, and a slightly updated interior with a new infotainment screen.

FWIW, the Lexus IS350 F Sport AWD has a base price of $47k. Add Navi and Mark Levison audio system for $3k, LED headlights for $1k, parking sensors for $500, and that's $52k, pretty much the price of a TLX Type S. But the IS350 only has a naturally aspirated V6 making just over 300hp and well below 300lbft of torque. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not much faster than the TLX 2.0T.

I think the above is probably why people here don't talk much about the Lexus IS. It's kinda outdated and not very competitive performance-wise.

bilirubin

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lexus' AWD system does not employ real torque-vectoring. Instead of diverting power to the outer wheel (like SH-AWD), the Lexus applies the brakes to the inner wheel.

Tesla1856

Thanks.

Yeah, that's really all I saw either, the IS . All the ES models appear to be FWD, and the GS is RWD. So, I guess the IS-350 is barely the "right size" after all, but it still looks small (like a ILX or A3).

That 2021 IS-350 release video has been out for a couple of months already, but the car is still not on their website.

Right. Compared to how Acura (or even Audi) does their trims/options, Lexus seems strange. I would be afraid something got left off... like, why would I NOT want Parking-Sensors on my $45k sedan.

fiatlux

You must have missed https://www.autoweek.com/news/luxury...ew-black-line/

And the GS has AWD versions. Not sure how you missed that on the website...https://www.lexus.com/build-your-lex...year/2020/trim

Now, they’re not as good as SH-AWD, but they do exist.

CollinR4

GS could be comparable for 2020 but being discontinued. ES is FWD but new offering of AWD with a deficient engine, 3.5 can only be had with FWD. Lexus definitely phoned it in with the IS350 'redesign' minor cosmetic changes, no engine upgrade since 2006 (Excluding IS-F) with a measly bump from 306 hp to 311 in that time. Pathetic that they are still using a 6-speed auto for AWD as well and I say this as an owner.

They could have detuned the 3.5TT V6 in the LS and put it in the IS and immediately been at least performance competitive again. And I refuse to hear that it wouldn't fit when they were able to fit a 5.0 V8 into the last IS-F.

fiatlux

Lexus is but a shell of its former self when it comes to peformance. How far they've fallen from just 10 years ago: reviewers were raving about the GS F-Sport and how it's a better 5-series than the 5-series of the time, they were selling a peach of a V8 stuffed into a RWD compact car, and the LFA had just come out.

Now what do we have? GS is axed, they Frankensteined together a compromised RC-F that's going on 6 years with no update in sight, and the LC-F has been rumored to been cancelled.

That said, I'm sure they're laughing all the way to the bank with how much money they must be pulling in from the UX, NX, and RX crossovers, with rumors of an ever-popular crossover coupe on the horizon (RZ).

ZipSpeed

I could look the other way if Lexus stuffed that twin-turbo V6 from the LS into the "new" IS. They can even slightly detune the power if they feel like it's going to step on the LS. I would be happy with Supra-like performance. Otherwise, I'm not interested with something that I could have bought back in 2014.

Tesla1856

Well, because when you click this landing page, I saw no mention of AWD .
https://www.lexus.com/models/GS

Their website is confusing, and all the "special models" don't help. The years are mixed together also.

2021 ES-250 AWD has a baby engine.
Still don't see a 2021 ES-350 AWD . Pretty sure, it's the ES-350 that matches the G2 TLX . The IS is smaller, the GS is larger/pricer (maybe comparable to a G2 TLX Type-S ).

Thanks to all that posted. Really appreciate it. I knew yall would know something helpful. I think I'm done looking at Lexus.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Traditionally, the Lexus ES has been Lexus' best selling sedan. And the funny think about the ES is that it's more of less a glorified Camry with little to no sportiness to it. It's purely designed to be a comfortable cruiser that's decent looking. Yet, Lexus is able to charge a pretty hefty premium on the ES and people still buy them. We are talking about 50000 Lexus ES sold for 2019. And this is the competition:

2019 Entry Luxury sedans Sales Figures USA:

ES 51,336 +5.9%
C Class 49,153 -18.6%
3 series 47,827 +7.3%
TLX 26,548 -12.9%
A4 26,435 -24%
Q50 25,987 -25.2%
MKZ 17,725 -10.7%
IS 14,920 -34.9%
G70 11,901
LaCrosse 7,241 -53.4%
ATS 1,134 -89.6%

It's the best selling - even better than the C Class and 3 series - in the segment. Not only that, it out sold the Lexus IS 3.5 times more.

And how much is the ES? $40k for the base ES250 AWD with a 203hp 4-banger engine, and $54k for a fully loaded ES350 FWD with a 302hp V6.

It's hard to convince the bean counters to put more money in the IS when the ES is such a good seller with such high profit margin.

fiatlux

Small nit; as of the 6G in 2012, it's been based on the Avalon rather than Camry.

Rocket_man

Correct... another nit is that unlike the Avalon, the ES lacks rear folding seats. This keeps it off my list of potential sedans. They actually engineer out a very useful feature. I guess it still sells well enough, but not to me. Putting in folding rear seats in the TLX was one of the reasons I bought one.

AcuraGuy2016

Lexus is overpriced. Performance is abysmal on their SUVs. The only relatively affordable vehicle with acceptable performance, the GS with the better engine, is being discontinued. The LS 500 has good specs but is very expensive and 8" too long to fit in most modern garages. The GS-F was nice, but overpriced and also discontinued.

But their SUVs are overpriced and SLOW....

fiatlux

Overpriced when it comes to performance, but that's not what their customer base wants. They still outsell Acura by a huge margin, so what does it say about Acura? The RX is supremely comfortable, reliable, and well-built. Admittedly the GX and LX are pricey, but they're tremendously capable offroad even though they're extremely long in the tooth, and they're really the only things left in its class. The ES is a great highway cruiser priced like a 3-series but with the size and quality of a 5-series.

AcuraGuy2016

Of all Lexus current offerings that are not being discontinued, the only vehicle I'd consider is an ES. It has acceptable performance and a nice smooth V6. It has good cargo and rear legroom. It's performance is not abysmal, unlike its SUVs. The RX performs on par with a Honda CRV. The Pilot and Odyssey would OWN an RX anyday. The NX is a total joke regarding performance, maybe only besting the ridiculously slow Subaru base engines.

But I heard that the Mark Levinson sound system in the ES was a total joke compared to current gen TLX ELS system and that it was really hard to upgrade aftermarket. I'm an audiophile so having a lousy system is a dealbreaker. I'd otherwise consider the ES. It has a good size, good smooth performance, and decent ground clearance.

Tesla1856

Aren't they all now-days ? They all seem heavily integrated into the cars Infotainment. So "a good stock sound system" sounds like a small thing, but if not upgradable you are going to be using it for the life of the car. Also, repair-parts are OEM (and likely pricey) so reliable is good.

fiatlux

It's a good thing most Lexus buyers don't prioritize performance then. Some people (based on sales figures, I'd say most people even) care more about things like comfort, reliability, quality, etc. over just accelerating fast. Otherwise, we'd all be driving Dodges and BMWs and nobody would give a hoot about anything else.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

My friend's parents bought a fully loaded RX 350F-Sport with the Mark Levinson audio system. The audio system was pretty incredible (IMO), however for the performance and price tag, it was a lot of coin (over 62K). I personally wouldn't pay that kind of coin for what the RX is. It's a great vehicle if it's 45K with some options. Once past 50-55K, it's not worth it.

Barbecue Tech Tips

62k cringe!

AcuraGuy2016

The Mark Levinson system isn't bad in all Lexus vehicles. I heard the LS ML is decent. Maybe the RX ML is as well. I just heard the ES was bad - that the bass and rear speakers are a joke from browsing Lexus forums. Unfortunately the ES is the only Lexus I'd consider that isn't being discontinued.

Regarding aftermarket, I'd never upgrade a head unit, since so much is integrated into them. I meant just the speakers and use a separate amp (Focal speakers and Focal amps would be nice), keep stock unit for control. Hondas can do this, but I heard it was really hard to do in the ES.

Barbecue Tech Tips

I would never tear apart another car for a speaker upgrade. Not worth the time & money. With that being said, looking at the audio system measurements. The ELS 3D is the best in its class till 60k+.

Mark Levinson becomes the top at $100k

Tesla1856

1. Oh, ok. I can relate to that then.

2. Nice. IIRC, on the old Maxima, every speaker had it's own mini-amp near it. I never would have known, but the wife went boating across a low-water crossing. Car got a bit flooded and blew both speakers/amps in both lower doors. Weird setup if you ask me, but maybe normal for stock/OEM.

3. Cool. I remember on the old 1994 Honda, head-unit (with cassette only) was Alpine clone. You could supposedly get an Alpine 6-disc CD-Changer, connect it in trunk (to existing wiring all cars had), and it would work fine. I found the wiring-harness, but waited too long to find a proper model new/working CD-Changer.

rlx015

Pricing wise - looking at TLX 2.0 SHAWD (50k-ish MSRP) and then 2020 Lexus GS350 AWD (51k MSRP) - I would say Lexus WINS BY A LONG MILE!!!
Just one of the examples where Acura will suffer wth this pricing on TLX... it is INSANELY STUPID ... hype up concept, sell the approach, idea, type S coming back... oh, hold on... pricing is what 50k for 4cyl turbo engine from Acura... no thanks... I am super-disappointed at Acura what they did pricing wise on TLX

Barbecue Tech Tips

Only a fool would choose a GS over the new TLX.

fiatlux

Only a fool would choose either over a used GS-F .

That car was a pretty bad deal brand spankin' new, but you can pick up a low-mileage one for about $50K these days. Between the reliability, build quality, and that glorious-sounding V8 engine, it's one hell of a daily driver you can own for years without breaking the bank.

Kense

According to a member here people don't buy used performance cars lol.

Tesla1856

I like it. AWD and V6 . Yeah, it starts at $51k, but once you add the basic toys, you are at ... $56k .

Seems similar to a Audi S4 V6-AWD (but a little bigger) ? Maybe more luxurious looking than sporty?

But even for $56,000, looks like NO folding mirrors, HUD, or surround-view camera..

https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2020-Le...dan/equipment/

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea the TLX 2.0T AWD Advance is $48k. Making it $50k seems a bit unfair man. And that's the fully loaded model too.

The GS350 AWD starts at $51k, but a loaded one is $56k. And at this price, it's still missing features like HUD, LED headlights, etc. Those two features cost $2k on the Lexus website.

In a sense, we are talking about a $10k difference.