BuffaloGreek

So I went to get my car (2000 TL) inspected today and it failed because the inspector saw these cracks/holes. I think this is a crossmember, but I'm not certain. I was hoping you guys could tell me for sure, what does it do, and what I'm looking at to replace it? What would happen if I let it go, because I might be able to get it inspected somewhere else and it passes because they miss it.

I'm pretty upset about this..Car is really in great shape 86k, funny thing is, the same part on the driver side looks great!

Pics:

<a href="http://s1251.photobucket.com/albums/...t=3fa5b064.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...a/3fa5b064.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>



<a href="http://s1251.photobucket.com/albums/...t=b6a91da5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...a/b6a91da5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


Thanks in advance guys..

BuffaloGreek

randomthought

That is some pretty severe corrosion. I believe that is the rear subframe, which provides support to various components in the car. Don't know about costs, but would be quite a bit of work. If you can DIY, might not be as bad, only a couple hundred bucks.

Where are you located? Salt might help explain the corrosion.

02type-s

Holy shit, did that car get pulled out of the ocean?

BuffaloGreek

Buffalo NY, where we have the salt without the ocean. Some pretty harsh winters up here. It's weird that the other side is almost near clean! I keep the car pretty damn clean, especially in the winter. I'm at the wash every other day when the salts on the road. I'm the second owner, and I've had it for Two year's as of this Aug.

I plan to try a different shop tomorrow for the inspection and just hope he doesn't care about that, or pulls off the front left wheel to check the brakes. At least I can buy some time to make a decision.

02Type-S, I guess your fortunate enough to have a sand grit on your roads in the winter? This is nothing, you should see the rot on cars up here!

fsttyms1

We have nothing but salt around here in the winter and i havent seen a rusted subframe like that. Get that thing fixed. That is a ticking time bomb waiting to happen If any part of that fails you could loose steering or the whole motor (that is your front subframe)

BuffaloGreek

Perhaps it was a submarine in it's first life, or I'm the exception.

Thanks for the clarification, and warning.

Now I need find costs of repair, I've found a couple used ones for a decent price.

randomthought

Can always hit up junkyards and remove one yourself. Trial run before taking off your own.

BuffaloGreek

I'm pretty certain that the job requires hanging the motor and maybe the trans, not positive. But it sounds like something I don't want to take on myself. I'm going to put in some calls today, and see what direction this goes.

fsttyms1

Get a engine hoist to support the motor and trans as 1 unit. Unbolt the engine and trans mounts and every thing else that connects to it (like lower control arms etc.. and replace. Job is no harder than replacing shocks.

BuffaloGreek

Really?! Seems more labor intensive than that?

Also, wouldn't it be advisable to replace motor mounts, and do timing belt/water pump service while it's being to tore into to this degree?

3.2TLc

If you got a line on a good used replacement subframe unit, less than half a day should get it installed. I'm thinking if you shop around, it should'nt take any more than $500 to buy the part and have it put on. Get this done or you jeopardize harm !

I would'nt worry about the T-belt at this time unless it's overdue and you're getting a fair hourly labor rate. The T-belt really isn't any easier of a job with what's involved in doing the subframe. Different location. Motor mounts, if bad, would be a good time to replace.

BuffaloGreek

I found one for about 200.00. I'm taking it to my shop on Friday morning that I've trusted for the past 10 years, so I know he will treat me fair.

Man, if I get away with 500.00 I will estatic! 105k service is not due, as I'm only at 86k but I was thinking it would be a good time. But I will hold off as you suggest.

I will probably do the mounts, how many mounts are there exactly?

gold2003tl (90)

Holy frame rot. That's almost as bad as my Ford truck. Iv never seen such frame rot on these cars. Id complain to Acura about that, that's not normal under any conditions. Must be a paint problem from the factory, or flood damage.

03tl-s04mdx

Yes, 105k service is due - it's actually 105k miles or 7 years, whichever comes first.

closetprisoner

Dayum.. !!! I'm glad am in CA

kidduce

iTrader: (1)

^^ werd. That and other reasons.

3.2TLc

Hey Buff G,
There's a total of 3 motor mounts, located in the lower front and rear, then one on passenger side top. While you're at the mounts, there's also 2 tranny mounts which are located under the tranny. They may not all be bad, usually the front and side go first.

It wouldn't be a bad idea asking your mechanic about an estimate on the T-belt as it should be changed in the near future. This is a completely different job and will cost more than the subframe work. Approx: $600-$900.

Karanx7

iTrader: (2)

Yes, definitely change mounts while doing this. Labor will change from shitton to zero. T-belt is due for you based on time, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Fatty lies and tells people everything is easy peasy. I think it's just because he has yet to encounter something difficult for him.

If you really want to save the labor cost, yea you can do it. It's not too bad, but you should have basic experience working on the car. As long as your comfortable with your tools, rest is straightforward.

3.2TLc

P.S. , If you have the time to clean up that replacement subframe, it'd help to at least brush off the dirt and any rust.....then paint it with a good rust-resistant epoxy to help prevent the rust from getting another bite. If concerned about the AC dripping onto it, you could drill a small hole to allow the water to drain out. Biggest thing is to blast the salt off the underbody, whenever you get a break during the harsh winter road's abuse.

BuffaloGreek

Thanks, reading older threads I saw that the front followed by the side mounts are a given to be worn by now. I will have him replace those, along with looking at the rear, and tranny mounts.

I'll price the T-Belt job, but I may have to back burner it for a few more months to soften the financial blow of this subframe job.

Thanks for the advice "Karanx7" I feel comfortable with a lot of things, but I'm going to hand this one off to my shop. I don't have the time, nor the ability to be with out my dd for a long period of time.

Ya, depending on which Subframe I get, I will be sure to make sure that it's " clean" before install. I like the idea of spraying it with rust-resistant epoxy. I guess my ocd with the car wash so often in the winter didn't pay off, even though they do an underspray, it's obviously not enough.

But, then again I have only had the car for Two years..I'm no expert, but this rot looks like a lil more than Two years in the making.

BuffaloGreek

So I took my car into my mechanic this morning. He put the car up, and isolated the needed part to the ( Rear Beam ) #1 in the schematic below. The ( Front Sub Frame) was fine and stucturally sound. He estimated about 4 to 5 hours labor and I'm looking around $400-$500. Seems reasonable to me.

I called the Acura Dealer just to see what the part would run, and they quoted me 1042.00 ( shop price) and the parts guy said this is common and they do these all the time....nice

I found a used one that includes the front subframe, apparently they are not selling it seperate for 210.00 from a place my mechanic recommended. So I ordered that. I guess I'll have an extra front subframe for sale, if someone is looking.

I will probably be picking up the misc. mounts and stuff from Sonsacura.com ( #7, #10, #23 and #8) These came out to about $70.00 with shipping vs, 140.00 from dealer.

I may consider doing the front since it's being torn into anyways and does not tack on too much more in labor costs.

He also said that I'm not at risk of losing my engine or steering in the interm.

I'll keep you guys up to date as progress is made, and I appreciate all the input and help thus far!

DanTech

I had to do mine. 230000km, I figured its the least I can do to keep the old girl on the road. The rest of the car is perfect and rust free.

I would reroute the evap drain on your A/C and the right side sunroof drain. Both of these drip onto the right rear corner of the subframe. The moisure collects and causes the rust in isolated spots.

Its not a fun job but not impossible to do yourself. I'd gladly pay someone 4 or 5 hours labour to do mine. I got stuck forking over $400 for a used southern piece. Count yourself lucky for finding one for the price you did.

BuffaloGreek

Dan, that's not bad..you hit some good milage before you did it. I'm at 86k and sounds like your car is much like mine. Completely rust free, with the exception of this side of the frame. I love the car and I can totally justify the repair.

I've seen some other threads about the A/C draining on this part of the frame, but I didn't know the sunroof drains here as well.

I don't have the tools or the expierence for a job of this nature, so I have no problem passing it off to a shop that I've trusted for over 10 years.

Sounds like I did ok on the used part, I sort of figured that and that it's miles from what Acura wanted for a new one.

Do you by chance remember what else you changed along with the rear beam, other than what I listed?

TrustinHFDJ

Yup, the best way to do it, had the same issue on my honda; DIY and it only cost me 35 bucks LOL

DOHC TL

Buffalo........ I guess you read my threds. These Guys dont know Jack about doing a job like this unless they did it or had it done to their car. I tell you for a fact it will not be easy buying a brand new part for your car. when i called for mine there were just 3 left in the United States. By the looks of those pictures there is just MORE than changing the Front Subframe...

YOUR BEST BET is get a Quote on labor from a Pro who can do the job. one who will tell you What else you would have to get.
And from there you can really think if you want to keep the car or not.
I live here in hawaii and there is only 1 Acura dealer in the whole state so everything is marked up.

FYI Our cars are based on Honda's 1999-2002 Accord.. But any Accord part you look at will have to come from a V6...

I know the feeling....

DanTech

Buffalo, I went all out when I did mine. Had the rack out, so i did inner and outer tie rods, upper and lower ball joints, sway bar links and bushings, and tranny mounts. It wasn't hard, just time consuming. I know if I had to do it again, I could do it in 4 or 5 hours.

BuffaloGreek

Thanks DOHC TL for your reply. It's actually the Rear Beam that needs to be replaced. I'm getting a used part, as I'm not going to throw 1,000 at the part that I was already quoted for by Acura.

My mechanic has done these jobs before, and I feel his quote was fair.

I'm going to check out the part on Monday before I pay for it, just to make sure everything is ok and then they are delivering it to my shop.

Thanks for the tip on the Accords..I will look into that, if the part does not meet my standards and they have trouble locating another one.

Dantech thanks, I'm going to have my shop look into anything else that needs attention. I wish I had the time, tools, and knowledge to do it myself. Convenience has a cost...

3.2TLc

Hey Buff, the key here is to have an honest trustworthy mechanic in your corner for these more difficult repairs. Some jobs require more expertise and special equipment to safely perform. It's better to know your limitations, then risk personal harm and grief.

Besides, you've already studied the task at hand.....along with getting a used part, so your time is better spent doing whatever you do to make a living. Your mechanic will have the job done much quicker and easier than a "DIY"er without the proper equipment.

BuffaloGreek

Thanks...Exactly how I feel when it comes to these sort of repairs. After years of trial and error, I've actually learned from my past.

RC99TL

Bet the A/C evaporator drain hose was mispositioned and allowed water to fill the brace.
That and all the salt ate it up.
Definitely need a new subframe and do the mounts.
OR move to NJ where the state inspection has become a joke.
All they check for is emissions. Tires can be showing cord, tail lights not working, no horn, NO PROBLEM!

BuffaloGreek

Your probably right, and someone else mentioned that the sunroof drains at the same location as well.

Ya, I'm gonna take care of the mounts too.

Thats just crazy, I don't even want to drive in your state with cars on the road passing with with those issues!!

BuffaloGreek

So here's the update.

I had to wait a lil over a week to get it into my mechanic.

Entire Subframe (including the rear beam) from a 2003 TL
210.00

Napa
Front motor mount: 64.00 (with 20% discount)
Rear motor mount: 99.00 (with 20% discount)

Carquest( the only ones who had this!)
Rear Tranny mount 14.54

Napa (these parts the my mechanic got on his own)
2 Sway bar links 64.00
Honda/Acura power steering fluid 18.00

Mechanic Labor
645.00

Total: $1200.00 ( including tax)

I picked up all my parts myself except the sway bar links and steering fluid. I had the tranny mount sent there when he discovered it was broken.

My mechanic had put a lil over 8 hours into this job, there was a lot that he didn't orginally see that needed to be removed to get to it. He still honored his quote, thankfully.

This job hurt a lil...but I'm happy to her back!

Thanks to all of you for all your help and advice. Acurazine pays and saves!

It was also nice to see the later posts where other folks had the same issue as me. When I first posted this, I was really starting to think that I was the exception!

Ken1997TL

Well done, thats a fair price for whats involved. I sure don't miss salt on the roads where I'm at!

BuffaloGreek

Glad to hear that from you Ken.

New York is so corrupt..Towards the end of the winter season, even if we get a hald inch of snow, these cities/town will dump enough salt for a 4 foot storm.

They want to empty out the storage garages that are holding it, and ofcourse fatten up thier paychecks. This way they can get thier full and increased budgets for the next year. Surplus is a bad thing in bad thing in this state!

Ken1997TL

Yep, if they don't use it that year the idiots in charge of a budget will make the wild assumption that they'll never need it again.

dashur

I found this post and wanted to mention that I have an '03 TL type S with the same exact problem. I am in Pennsylvania so we do get some snow in the winter but not much. Is this a common problem. I find it very hard to believe that a 10 year old subframe would completly rust through like that. I also have garage kept it since I bought it 4 years ago with 80k...

Here is my picture, it is basically the same as yours. My dealership quoted me $2300 parts and labor to fix it.





Could this have anything to do with manufacturing using bad material? Or possibly a water lear. It just seems bizarre that it is only on the passenger side of the vehicle.

I understand rust happens but something is not adding up.

Anyway thought I would add my story

dashur

I just read the entire post and saw the mentions about the A/C and Sunroof Drains right over that rusted area?

Should I mention to my mechanic to reroute those drains after the repair? Is that a hard job or a DIY?

closetprisoner

Damage mostly cause by salt on the road, don't think it the sunroof drain..

dashur

If it is salt damage then why is it isolated to only that one particular area of the sub frame and not the driver side? or anywhere else for that matter? Not trying to be a smart @ ss but playing devils advocate