F1 fans got shafted especially US fans

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Old 06-21-2005 | 04:45 AM
  #41  
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"....As of last night, no refunds were offered. Fred Nation, the executive vice president for communications at the speedway, said the track's officials met yesterday to review whether Formula One Management fulfilled its contractual agreement."

I'm sure this is why they did the parade lap, to insure that the contractual obligtations were met. This way it is listed as the 14 car "retierd" from the race, but did start it.
Old 06-21-2005 | 08:59 AM
  #42  
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Michael Schumacher's comment, "I don't know what Michelin's problem is, but this wasn't our problem," spoke volumes about Ferrari's intransigence ahead of F1's race of shame.
.....translation, payback's a (female dog)!!!
Old 06-21-2005 | 09:07 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Colin
"....As of last night, no refunds were offered. Fred Nation, the executive vice president for communications at the speedway, said the track's officials met yesterday to review whether Formula One Management fulfilled its contractual agreement."

I'm sure this is why they did the parade lap, to insure that the contractual obligtations were met. This way it is listed as the 14 car "retierd" from the race, but did start it.

Why in the world should IMS be responsible to the fans???? It did absolutely nothing wrong and to believe otherwise is sheer stupidity. Bernie takes nearly 95% of the ticket sales and percentages on everything sold there from food to t-shirts. If there's a wrongdoer then it's Bernie. He was on his helicopter before the race ended. Indy gets the "privilege" of prestige of holding the United States' only GP. The Hulman and George families rightfully so, refused to participate in this sham of a "race" and believe me, there's no one motor racing fan that despises Tony George more than I do so for me to stick up for him is a big stretch. These people banging on the doors of the administration building are fucking idiots, almost as stupid as the assholes throwing debris onto the track. The track fulfilled its obligation to the fans, the governing body and Michelin dropped the ball bigtime.
Old 06-21-2005 | 09:12 AM
  #44  
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ugh....FIA ugh....it's their own doing. You can't mess with teams so much so quickly and so often without expecting backlash.


http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/s...=f1&id=2091289

Tuesday, June 21, 2005

Associated Press

PARIS -- Formula One's governing body has charged the seven teams using Michelin tires with damaging the sport's image by pulling out of this past weekend's United States Grand Prix in Indianapolis.

The FIA, which has summoned the seven teams to a June 29 hearing in Paris, charged each team with a breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

The FIA released copies Tuesday of letters it sent to Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Toyota, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber and Red Bull.

The charges include failing to ensure they had a suitable set of tires, wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to start the race, wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to race subject to a speed restriction and combining with other teams "to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race."

The teams also were accused of failing to notify stewards of their intention not to race.

Possible sanctions include fines, docked points or even an order to pay compensation.

Michelin provides seven of the 10 F1 teams with tires. Only six cars -- using Bridgestone tires -- started the race in Indianapolis on Sunday after 14 drivers left the track following the warmup lap. Ferrari's Michael Schumacher won, climbing from his car to a chorus of boos.

The same seven teams were among the nine teams that boycotted meetings called by FIA president Max Mosley in January and April to discuss regulations for the 2008 season. It was unclear whether they'll attend the June 29 meeting.

Two Michelin tires failed during Friday's practices -- one causing a wreck that prevented Toyota's Ralf Schumacher from competing -- prompting Michelin to rule its tires were unsafe for the Indianapolis track.

Michelin unsuccessfully asked FIA to ease its rule forbidding teams from changing tires after qualifying. FIA also refused to consider installing a curve that Michelin said would slow speeds and make the track safer for its tires. Michelin then advised its teams not to compete.

"We are absolutely not embarrassed about our decision, although we do have regrets for the fans of Formula One and for the racing drivers of course," Frederic Henry-Biabaud, Michelin's deputy director of competition, said Monday.

"We feel it is a reasonable decision and we were professional to bear in mind primarily the safety of the drivers," Henry-Biabaud said. "We had no other choice."
Old 06-21-2005 | 10:32 AM
  #45  
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Screw ugly Bernie and the Frenchies. You don't mess with fans and get away with it.
Old 06-21-2005 | 01:07 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Chief F1 Fan
Why in the world should IMS be responsible to the fans???? The track fulfilled its obligation to the fans, the governing body and Michelin dropped the ball bigtime.
Oh don't worry I agree with you 100% on all counts! I hate TG and agree that they were in no way responsable for the fiasco. I was just pointing out that I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on aince all 20 cars started the race

....On the plus side, if there is no proceeds from F1, TG might have a harder time "propping" up the IRL and our open wheel war might finally end. From this point of view, I have no sympathy.......
Old 06-21-2005 | 01:51 PM
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The Madness Continues

I can agree with this:

"The FIA World Council next week will be the most significant FIA meeting for more than 10 years with the major question not being the details of what happened in Indianapolis but rather whether the best interest of the sport is to have a World Championship featuring the best of the best or a ruined championship over which the FIA has full control to do as it pleases."
Old 06-21-2005 | 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gsclifton
The Madness Continues

I can agree with this:

"The FIA World Council next week will be the most significant FIA meeting for more than 10 years with the major question not being the details of what happened in Indianapolis but rather whether the best interest of the sport is to have a World Championship featuring the best of the best or a ruined championship over which the FIA has full control to do as it pleases."
I'm picturing a slightly modified scene from Revenge of the Sith, lol...
Old 06-21-2005 | 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gsclifton
The Madness Continues

I can agree with this:

"The FIA World Council next week will be the most significant FIA meeting for more than 10 years with the major question not being the details of what happened in Indianapolis but rather whether the best interest of the sport is to have a World Championship featuring the best of the best or a ruined championship over which the FIA has full control to do as it pleases."
Ouch...this is going to get ugly...

I think Max Moseley needs to get off his high horse and fess up to the fact that he's a tool and needs to be shot. If they exclude Michelin (which isn't very likely) they'll sideline more than half their teams and the series will be doomed to obscurity.
Old 06-21-2005 | 02:59 PM
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As far as my understanding of this debacle that the tires are not safe to be used at an optimum level only on turn 13, which is the banked turn. That is why the chicane idea was thrown.

However, by doing that it would violate the rules and there is no way that FIA will bend and change the rules in a million years.

I guess FIA thinking was to have the cars race and when they approach turn 13 to approach it in a safe manner. They even suggested that. But, the teams instead took the boycott road.

I also remember early this year when Ferrari had tire problems that Schumacher had 2 tire failures and was force to retire. That same race, they've instructed Barrichello to slow down because they don't want to have the same fate as Schumacher. Having bad equipment is part of this sport. You use whatever cards that was dealt for you.

I don't know exactly what the penalty would be, but I'm hoping that whatever it is, all Michelin-shod teams can continue to race.

When it comes down to it, mistakes were made and you have to be accountable to those mistakes and find ways to go around it. Not hope for some other entity to bail you out.
Old 06-21-2005 | 03:24 PM
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Sounds like someone might be the recipient of a Darth Vader force choke next week.
Old 06-21-2005 | 03:27 PM
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There is more to just slowing down on turn 13. Michelin couldn't gaurantee it's underinflated tires will safely last the total race distance. So Michelin teams retired their cars for safety reason. Same like retiring for oil leak, or retiring for overheated brakes. It's just this time 14 cars all retiring at the same time.

This is nothing in comparison to the cancellation of the entire CART race just a couple hours before race start at the Texas Motor Speedway on April 29, 2001. A lot of drivers were suffering from dizzyness and disorientation after sustained loads of up to 5½ Gs for 18 of the 22 seconds it took to complete a single lap, due to the unique banking angle of the Speedway. However, some drivers were not affected, and could still compete. But CART made the right choice by canceling the race altogether.
Old 06-21-2005 | 03:37 PM
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As a side note, Michelin didn't know in advance that its tires will fail at turn 13. If it is blamed for not providing the right tires or not engineering tires that can resist failure, then BAR would have been fined many times over for not providing the right engine that can last the whole race or not engineering engines that can resist blowing up. Similarly for McLaren for not engineering front suspension that won't collapse with flat tires. Motorsport racing is unpredictable. This is what makes it so exciting and popular.
Old 06-21-2005 | 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
As a side note, Michelin didn't know in advance that its tires will fail at turn 13. If it is blamed for not providing the right tires or not engineering tires that can resist failure, then BAR would have been fined many times over for not providing the right engine that can last the whole race or not engineering engines that can resist blowing up. Similarly for McLaren for not engineering front suspension that won't collapse with flat tires. Motorsport racing is unpredictable. This is what makes it so exciting and popular.
I can't believe it but, I actually agree with this. Don't agree with you saying this was "nothing" in comparison to a CART race cancellation.... but this, yes.

Add to this, the Michelin teams that did NOT experience tire failure at turn 13....
Old 06-21-2005 | 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
As a side note, Michelin didn't know in advance that its tires will fail at turn 13. If it is blamed for not providing the right tires or not engineering tires that can resist failure, then BAR would have been fined many times over for not providing the right engine that can last the whole race or not engineering engines that can resist blowing up. Similarly for McLaren for not engineering front suspension that won't collapse with flat tires. Motorsport racing is unpredictable. This is what makes it so exciting and popular.
I believe you're right too.

Things just need to be put into persepective. What are the roles of every actors here?

Michelin: Supplier. They provide the tires to the racing teams.

Racing teams: They compete. They are also at the front line for providing the best quality show for the fans.

FIA: Governing body. They ensure competition is done safely and legally. Their rules have a direct influence over the show.

FOM: Governing body responsible for the commercial aspects of F1. They are responsible for the marketing of F1. They are tied to track promoters, broadcasters and sponsors.

The fans: They watch the show. They consume the product of F1 racing. They are the commercial reason for F1.


This being known, while Michelin may have an influence over the show in an indirect way (by providing competitive parts, like BMW, Honda, AP, Carbon Composites and other suppliers), they are not the ones who are responsible for the show. In other words, Michelin has no obligations towards the fans. Their only obligation is tied to their image. Which is the exact reason why they are in F1 as a supplier. The teams, FIA and FOM are the ones who make the show. Their decisions have direct influence over how the show will be for the fans. In the context of Indianapolis, they are the ones who had the final decision over how things were going to be. All Michelin could do (and did) was say: "Here's the problem: How are we going to solve it with the resources we have at hand?"

Knowing the fans are the main victims of this charade, who is liable or responsible for the bad showing?

Michelin is by ricochet. Since they are not at the front line, they cannot bear the sole responsability for the debacle. They should bear 10% of responsability.

The teams certainly are responsible, as they are obliged towards their sponsors and their supporters, but also per FIA rules to provide a competitive car. They are also the ones who must support the blame for doing business with a bad supplier: Michelin in this case. For two reasons: 1. They are sporting an uncompetitive and dangerous part. 2. As much as Michelin is responsible for designing the tires, it's the teams who validate the tire selection. If the teams do not approve those tires, they will never be used to race. If the teams really wanted to have a tire suited for Indy, it was incumbent to them to bring their cars in for a test session prior to the race week. Which hasn't been done. The racing teams could also have done their share towards the public in such a situation by running the 8-10 laps that Michelin allowed for before retiring. If that had been done, not half of the actual controversy would stand. The teams should bear 30% of responsability.

The FIA is responsible for the situation. It looks very good to bring out the accusations they have against the teams. But the situation that brought the teams to where they were was exacerbated by the governing body's rigid way of interpreting the rules. Faced with a situation of no coming back, the FIA should not have hidden behind rules, but collaborated to find solutions to preserve the show for the fans, all this while making sure the competition remained ... competitive. Yes there are rules, but because of the FIA's obligations towards the public, they should have done what's right for the fans. The FIA holds 40% of responsability.

The FOM has some responsability as much as they are victims. They are caught between the wood and the birch. As Bernie Ecclestone is the one who holds the rights to the broadcast and track promotion contracts, they are liable towards them, who are by extension, liable towards the fans who buy their products. Bernie Ecclestone is a victim of the teams and the FIA's bad will. As the teams would potentially end a business relationship with a bad supplier, Bernie Ecclestone is in a similarly way trapped with a bad governing body. It will be his main job to see to it that the FIA changes their attitude or plainly loses control over the technical aspects of F1 (I know it is not as black and white, but in the context of GPWC in 2008, this may well be what could happen. If FIA falls, so does Bernie Ecclestone) Bernie Ecclestone should bear 20% of responsability.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, from a ruling standpoint, Max Mosley really seems to have an advantage. He has the rules by his side. However, his attitude is more than counterproductive. He is such a bad host as it is now that he chasing away the visit. He will keep on putting the blame on the teams, and from a legal standpoint, I bet any Court of Law would support him. But he will lose all the interest from the public.

He really needs to tone down on the arrogance. His summons to the 7 Michelin teams is the mother of all the arrogant decisions made in F1 in the last week, and it will only result in pushing forward the GPWC project.

Old 06-21-2005 | 08:29 PM
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great points - especially the one about the burden of choosing quality tires resting on the TEAM... I think that is a vital point that has been overlooked altogether... at least, I haven't seen ready mention of it.
Old 06-21-2005 | 08:40 PM
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If the teams' choices are tires that barely make their requirements and adequately make their requirements and they qualify on the former, then they are stuck and that is what happened. That is how the tire suppliers make tires for each race.

The FIA's position was untenable in reality though not stated it meant this: either slow down in turn 13 or run through the pits each lap. That is what it means. How fuckin' ridiculous is this? Max could have made some concessions and so could have Michelin. It had two teams testing tires prior to the race and knew what the race requirements would be.
Old 06-22-2005 | 10:33 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
As a side note, Michelin didn't know in advance that its tires will fail at turn 13.
thats not intirely true if they had taken any time like they should have they should have done new testing due to the new tire regulations and track surface. only 2 drivers had taken advantage of pretesting. none were mich shod cars
Old 06-22-2005 | 03:10 PM
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You're half-right fsttyms1 - two drivers did take part in pre-testing but they were Michelin cars.

Quote from Peter Windsor on Wind Tunnel:

“It’s the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans … not one of those Michelin team guys said ‘We made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility. All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else, but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tire test to select the correct tire for Indianapolis? … Two – Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson – everyone else was at Silverstone.”
Old 06-22-2005 | 05:11 PM
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sauceman made great points there, but I would reverse your percentage of the blame.

40% for the Teams
30% for FIA
Old 06-22-2005 | 05:12 PM
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The FIA released the following “Q&A” Wednesday with its president, Max Mosley, who presents his view of the controversial events at last weekend’s USGP at Indianapolis:

Q: What about the American fans who traveled long distances and spent a lot of money to see a race with only six cars?

Max Mosley: My personal view, and it is only my personal view, is that Michelin should offer to compensate the fans on a fair basis and ask the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to coordinate this. Then Tony George and Bernie Ecclestone should jointly announce that the U.S. Grand Prix will take place at Indianapolis in 2006 and that anyone who had a ticket this year would be entitled to the same ticket free-of-charge next year. But I emphasize, that’s just my personal view.

Q: Should you not have just forgotten about the rules and put on a show for the fans?

MM: You cannot do that if you wish to remain a sport. Formula 1 is a sport which entertains. It is not entertainment disguised as sport. But even more importantly Formula 1 is a dangerous activity and it would be most unwise to make fundamental changes to a circuit without following tried and tested procedures. What happened was bad, but it can be put right. This is not true of a fatality.

Q: Why did you refuse the request of some of the teams to install a chicane?

MM: The decision was taken, quite rightly in my view, by the FIA officials on the spot and notified to the teams on the Saturday evening. I did not learn about it until Sunday morning European time. They refused the chicane because it would have been unfair, against the rules and potentially dangerous.

Q: Why unfair?

MM: Because modern Formula 1 cars are specially prepared for each circuit. To change radically a circuit like Indianapolis, which has very particular characteristics, would be a big disadvantage to the teams which had brought correct equipment to the event.

Q: Is this why Ferrari objected?

MM: No, Ferrari had nothing whatever to do with the decision. They were never consulted. Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi, as the Bridgestone teams, were not involved.

Q: Why would a chicane have been unfair, it would have been the same for everyone?

MM: No. The best analogy I can give is a downhill ski race. Suppose half the competitors at a downhill race arrive with short slalom skis instead of long downhill skis and tell the organizer to change the course because it would be dangerous to attempt the downhill with their short skis. They would be told to ski down more slowly. To make the competitors with the correct skis run a completely different course to suit those with the wrong skis would be contrary to basic sporting fairness.

Q: Never mind about skiing, what about Formula 1?

MM: OK, but it’s the same from a purely motor racing point of view. Suppose some time in the future we have five teams with engines from major car companies and seven independent teams with engines from a commercial engine builder, as in the past. Imagine the seven independent teams all have an oil surge problem in Turn 13 due to a basic design fault in their engines. They would simply be told to drop their revs or slow down. There would be no question of a chicane.

Q: All right, but why against the rules, surely you can change a circuit for safety reasons?

MM: There was no safety issue with the circuit. The problem was some teams had brought the wrong tires. It would be like making all the athletes in a 100m sprint run barefoot because some had forgotten their shoes.

Q: How can you say a chicane would be “potentially dangerous” when most of the teams wanted it for safety reasons?

MM: A chicane would completely change the nature of the circuit. It would involve an extra session of very heavy braking on each lap, for which the cars had not been prepared. The circuit would also not have been inspected and homologated with all the simulations and calculations which modern procedures require. Suppose there had been a fatal accident – how could we have justified such a breach of our fundamental safety procedures to an American court?

Q: But it’s what the teams wanted.

MM: It’s what some of the teams wanted because they thought it might suit their tires. They wanted it because they knew they could not run at full speed on the proper circuit. We cannot break our own rules just because some of the teams want us to.

Q: Why did the FIA stop the teams using a different tire flown in specially from France?

MM: It is completely untrue that we stopped them. We told them they could use the tire, but that the stewards would undoubtedly penalize them to ensure they gained no advantage from breaking the rules by using a high-performance short-life tire just for qualifying. We also had to make sure this did not set a precedent. However the question became academic, because Michelin apparently withdrew the tire after trying it on a test rig.

Q: Michelin were allowed to bring two types of tire – why did they not have a back-up available?

MM: You would have to ask Michelin. Tire companies usually bring an on-the-limit race tire and a more conservative back-up which, although slower, is there to provide a safety net if there are problems.

Q: Is it true that you wrote to both tire companies asking them to make sure their tires were safe?

MM: Yes, we wrote on 1 June and both replied positively. The letter was prompted by incidents in various races in addition to rumors of problems in private testing.

Q: So, having refused to install a chicane, what did the FIA suggest the Michelin teams should do?

MM: We offered them three possibilities. First, to use the type of tire they qualified on but with the option to change the troublesome left rear whenever necessary. Tire changes are allowed under current rules provided they are for genuine safety reasons, which would clearly have been the case here. Secondly, to use a different tire – but this became academic when Michelin withdrew it as already explained. Thirdly, to run at reduced speed through Turn 13, as Michelin had requested.

Q: How can you expect a racing driver to run at reduced speed through a corner?

MM: They do it all the time and that is exactly what Michelin requested. If they have a puncture they reduce their speed until they can change a wheel; if they have a brake problem they adjust their driving to overcome it. They also adjust their speed and driving technique to preserve tires and brakes when their fuel load is heavy. Choosing the correct speed is a fundamental skill for a racing driver.

Q: But that would have been unfair, surely some would have gone through the corner faster than others?

MM: No, Michelin wanted their cars slowed in Turn 13. They could have given their teams a maximum speed. We offered to set up a speed trap and show a black and orange flag to any Michelin driver exceeding the speed limit. He would then have had to call in the pits – effectively a drive-through penalty.

Q: How would a driver know what speed he was doing?

MM: His team would tell him before the race the maximum revs he could run in a given gear in Turn 13. Some might even have been able to give their driver an automatic speed limiter like they use in the pit lane.

Q: But would this be real racing?

MM: It would make no difference to the race between the Michelin cars. Obviously the Bridgestone cars would have had an advantage, but this would have been as a direct result of having the correct tires for the circuit on which everyone had previously agreed to race.

Q: Did the Michelin teams have any other way of running the race if the circuit itself was unchanged?

MM: Yes, they could have used the pit lane on each lap. The pit lane is part of the circuit. This would have avoided Turn 13 altogether. It is difficult to understand why none of them did this, because seventh and eighth places were certainly available, plus others if any of the six Bridgestone runners did not finish. There were points available which might change the outcome of the World Championship.

Q: But that would have looked very strange – could you call that a race?

MM: It would seem strange, but it would absolutely have been a race for the 14 cars concerned. And they would all have been at full speed for most of each lap. That would have been a show for the fans, certainly infinitely better than what happened.

Q: Did not Michelin tell them quite simply not to race at all?

MM: No. Michelin said speed must be reduced in Turn 13. They were apparently not worried about the rest of the circuit and certainly not about the pit lane, where a speed limit applies. If the instruction had been not to race at all, there would have been no point in asking for a chicane.

Q: Didn’t the Michelin teams offer to run for no points?

MM: I believe so, but why should the Bridgestone teams suddenly find they had gone all the way to America to run in a non-Championship race? It would be like saying there could be no medals in the Olympic rowing because some countries had brought the wrong boats.

Q: What about running the race with the chicane but with points only for the Bridgestone teams?

MM: This would start to enter the world of the circus, but even then the race would have been open to the same criticisms on grounds of fairness and safety as a Championship race run with a chicane. It would have been unfair on Bridgestone teams to finish behind Michelin teams on a circuit which had been specially adapted to suit the Michelin low-speed tires to the detriment of Bridgestone’s high-speed tires, and the circuit would no longer have met the rules.

Q: Have you ordered Michelin to produce details of all recent tire failures, as reported on a website?

MM: We cannot order Michelin to do anything. We have no contractual relationship with them. Their relationship is with the teams. However, we have an excellent understanding with both tire companies and with many of the teams’ other suppliers. We find they always help us with technical information when we ask them.

Q: Wouldn’t Formula 1 be better if one body were responsible for the commercial side as well as the sport?

MM: No, this is precisely what the competition law authorities in many parts of the world seek to avoid. It is not acceptable to them that the international governing body should have the right both to sanction and to promote. This would potentially enable it to further its own financial interests to the detriment of competitors and organisers. Apart from the legal aspect there would be an obvious and very undesirable conflict of interest if a body charged with administering a dangerous sport had to consider the financial consequences of a decision taken for safety reasons. You can be responsible for the sport or for the money, but not both.

Q: Didn’t this entire problem arise because new regulations require one set of tires to last for qualifying and the race?

MM: No. The tire companies have no difficulty making tires last. The difficult bit is making a fast tire last. There is always a compromise between speed and reliability. There have been one or two cases this season of too much speed and not enough reliability. Indianapolis was the most recent and worst example.

Q: Finally, what’s going to happen on June 29 in Paris (where the Michelin F1 teams have been summoned to appear before the World Motor Sport Council -Ed.)?

MM: We will listen carefully to what the teams have to say. There are two sides to every story and the seven teams must have a full opportunity to tell theirs. The atmosphere will be calm and polite. The World Motor Sport Council members come from all over the world and will undoubtedly take a decision that is fair and balanced.
Old 06-22-2005 | 05:18 PM
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I just don't understand why FIA (the rule book) be responsible for putting out a show for the fans. FIA does not produce the cars that race on race day.

On any kind of sporting venue it is the teams that puts the show.
Old 06-22-2005 | 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ulangca
I just don't understand why FIA (the rule book) be responsible for putting out a show for the fans. FIA does not produce the cars that race on race day.

On any kind of sporting venue it is the teams that puts the show.
Their regulations have a direct influence over the show. The FIA will admit itself that, in decisions made in the late years concerning limits imposed on the cars, one of the goals was to better the show by helping increase the competitiveness.

Yes, the teams put the show on, but they must abide to rules from the FIA to assure the show is done in relative fairness. Hence, the FIA can decide to enhance the show, or ruin it completely, as was the case in Indy.
Old 06-22-2005 | 06:47 PM
  #64  
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http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.h...22131809.shtml

[22/06/05 - 13:17]

Paul Stoddart comments on the US Grand Prix
A personal account of US Grand Prix events

What follows is a press release from the MinardiF1 team giving the views of Paul Stoddart.

"Much has been said about the farce that occurred on Sunday, June 19, in Indianapolis, and I feel that in the interests of transparency, it would be worthwhile for someone who was actually present, and participated in the discussions leading up to the start of the Grand Prix, to provide a truthful account of what took place, both for the 100,000-plus fans who were present, and for the hundreds of millions of people watching on television around the world.

While this is a genuine attempt to provide a factual timeline of the relevant events that took place, should any minor detail or sequence be disputed, it will not, in my opinion, affect in any way this account of events that led up to arguably the most damaging spectacle in the recent history of Formula One.

Background

For those who have not followed the recent political developments in Formula One, it is fair to say that, for over a year now, the majority of teams have felt at odds with the actions of the FIA and its President, Max Mosley, concerning the regulations, and the way in which those regulations have been introduced, or are proposed to be introduced. Not a weekend has gone by where some, or all, of the teams are not discussing or disputing these regulations. This is so much the case that it is common knowledge the manufacturers have proposed their own series commencing January 1, 2008, and this is supported by at least two of the independent teams. The general perception is that, in many instances, these issues have become personal, and it is my opinion that was a serious contributory factor to the failure to find a solution that would have allowed all 20 cars to compete in Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.

The Facts

Friday, June 17
I noticed that Ricardo Zonta’s Toyota had stopped, but in all honesty, did not pay any attention to the reasons why; however, I actually witnessed Ralf Schumacher’s accident, both on the monitors, and more significantly, I could see what took place from my position on the pit wall. This necessitated a red flag, and in the numerous replays on the monitors, it looked very much like the cause of the accident was a punctured rear tyre.

Throughout the afternoon, numerous people in the paddock suggested it was a tyre failure and commented that it was similar to the serious accident which befell Ralf Schumacher during the 2004 US Grand Prix. Later that evening was the first time I was aware of a potential problem with the Michelin tyres at this event. In all honesty, I didn’t pay a great deal of attention, as our team is on Bridgestone tyres.

Saturday, June 18
On arriving at the circuit, the word throughout the paddock was that there was a potential problem with the rear tyres supplied to all Michelin teams for this event, and it became evident as the first and second sessions were run that most of the affected teams were being very conservative with the amount of on-track running they were doing. In addition, Toyota announced that it had substituted Ricardo Zonta for Ralf Schumacher, who would take no further part in the event. Speculation was rife in the paddock that some Michelin teams might not take part in qualifying. Also, during the practice session, I was informed there would be a Team Principals’ meeting with Bernie Ecclestone at 1430 hrs after qualifying, which I incorrectly assumed would centre around the Michelin issue.

Qualifying took place, and indeed, all 20 cars qualified for Sunday’s Grand Prix.

At approximately 1420 hrs, I attended Bernie’s office, and with representatives present from all other teams, including Ferrari, the meeting commenced. Surprisingly, the main topic of conversation was the number of events and calendar for 2006, followed by a suggestion that a meeting be convened at the next Grand Prix to discuss two issues only – firstly, a proposal for a single-tyre supplier in Formula One, and secondly, whether or not it would be desirable to qualify with or without a race fuel load in 2006. Only at the very end of the meeting did the Michelin tyre issue arise, and in fairness, it was not discussed in any great detail. I personally found this strange, but as I have stated, it did not affect Minardi directly, and therefore I had no reason to pursue the matter.

Throughout Saturday evening, there was considerable speculation in the paddock that the tyre issue was much more serious than at first thought, and people were talking about a fresh shipment of tyres being flown overnight from France, and what penalty the Michelin teams would take should those tyres be used. By the time I left the paddock, people were taking bets on Minardi and Jordan scoring points!

Later that evening, I checked with our Sporting Director on what developments had occurred, and was told that the issue was indeed very serious, and the possibility existed that the Michelin teams would not take part in the race.

Sunday, June 19
I arrived at the circuit at 0815 hrs, only to find the paddock was buzzing with stories suggesting the Michelin teams would be unable to take part in the Grand Prix. I was then handed a copy of correspondence between Michelin, the FIA, and the Michelin teams that revealed the true extent of the problem. By now, journalists were asking if Minardi would agree to a variation of the regulations to allow the Michelin teams to compete, and what penalties I felt would be appropriate.

A planned Minardi press briefing took place at 0930 hrs, and as it was ending, I was summoned to an urgent meeting, along with Jordan, with Bernie Ecclestone, the two most senior Michelin representatives present at the circuit, IMS President Tony George, Team Principals, and technical representatives from the Michelin teams. At this meeting, Michelin, to its credit, admitted that the tyres available were unable to complete a race distance around the Indianapolis circuit without a change to the track configuration, so as to reduce the speed coming out of the last turn onto the banking. Much background information was provided as to the enormous efforts that Michelin, with support from its teams, had undertaken in the preceding 48 hours to try and resolve the problem, but it was clear that all those efforts had failed to produce a suitable solution that wouldn’t involve support from the non-Michelin teams, and ultimately, the FIA.

What was requested of the Bridgestone teams was to allow a chicane to be constructed at Turn 13, which would then allow Michelin to advise their teams that, in their opinion, the tyres would be able to complete the race distance. It was made very clear that this was the only viable option available, as previous suggestions from the FIA, such as speed-limiting the Michelin cars through Turn 13, could, and probably would, give rise to a monumental accident. This idea, as well as one concerning the possibility of pit stops every 10 laps, were dismissed, and discussion returned to the only sensible solution – a chicane. During this discussion, a technical representative with specific knowledge of the Indianapolis circuit, together with representatives from IMS, were tasked with preparing the design of a chicane, and Bernie Ecclestone agreed to speak with the one Team Principal not present, Mr Todt, and to inform the FIA President, Max Mosley, who was not present at Indianapolis, of the planned solution to allow the successful running of the US Grand Prix. With only a few hours now remaining to the start of the race, we agreed to reconvene as soon as Bernie had responses from Messrs Todt and Mosley.

At approximately 1055 hrs, Bernie informed us that not only would Mr Todt not agree, stating that it was not a Ferrari problem, but an FIA and a Michelin problem, but also Mr Mosley had stated that if any attempts were made to alter the circuit, he would cancel the Grand Prix forthwith. These words had a familiar tone to me, as they were similar to those I had heard around midnight on the Friday preceding the 2005 Australian Grand Prix, when I was told by all the senior FIA representatives present that the Australian Grand Prix would be cancelled forthwith if I did not withdraw pending legal action between Minardi and the FIA. Once again, Mr Mosley was not present at that Grand Prix! It is fair to say at this point that the vast majority of people present in the room both felt and stated that Mr Mosley had completely overstepped the mark, had no idea whatsoever of the gravity of the situation, and furthermore, cared even less about the US Grand Prix, its organisers, the fans, and indeed, the hundreds of millions of television viewers around the world who were going to be affected by his intransigence.

By this time, the nine teams had discussed running a non- championship race, or a race in which the Michelin teams could not score points, and even a race whereby only the Michelin teams used the new chicane, and indeed, every other possible option that would allow 20 cars to participate and put on a show, thereby not causing the enormous damage to Formula One that all those present knew would otherwise occur.

By now, most present felt the only option was to install the chicane and race, if necessary, without Ferrari, but with 18 cars, in what would undoubtedly be a non-championship race. We discussed with Bernie the effects of the FIA withdrawing its staff, and agreed among ourselves a Race Director, a Safety Car driver, and other essential positions, and all agreed that, under the circumstances, what was of paramount importance was that the race must go ahead. All further agreed that since we would most likely be denied FIA facilities, such as scales and post-race scrutineering, every competitor would instruct his team and drivers to conduct themselves in the spirit of providing an entertaining race for the good of Formula One.

At this point, we called for all 20 drivers, and indeed, all 20 arrived, at which point we informed them of our plan. While I cannot testify that each and every driver agreed with what we were proposing, what I can say with certainty is that no driver disagreed, and indeed, members of the Grand Prix Drivers’ Association discussed overseeing the construction of a suitable chicane. Jean Todt was the only significant team individual not present, and the Ferrari drivers stated this decision was up to Mr Todt.

I feel it is important to stress that, at this stage, and mindful of the total impossibility – call it force majeure if you wish – of 14 cars being able to compete in the race, the nine teams represented agreed they would not take part in the race unless a solution was found in the interests of Formula One as a global sport, as it was clear to all present that the sport, and not the politics, had to prevail if we were to avoid an impending disaster.

After a short break, we reconvened without the drivers. When I arrived in Bernie’s office, Flavio Briatore was on the telephone to Mr Mosley, and it was quite clear from the body language of the others gathered in the room that Mr Mosley was having none of our suggestions. At the conclusion of the telephone call, it was obvious that many of those in the room had lost all faith in Mr Mosley and his ability to perform his function as President of the FIA in respect of Formula One matters.

I’m sure this sentence will be treated with contempt by Mr Mosley, but what must be realised is that there are various reasons that other Team Principals, and the most senior people in Formula One, will not say publicly what they openly feel privately about Mr Mosley, his politics and his governance of the sport. There is a great temptation to go into those reasons in detail, but that is for another day. Suffice to say, those gathered at Indianapolis felt Mr Mosley, and to a lesser degree, the lack of co-operation from Mr Todt, were about to be responsible for the greatest FIAsco in Formula One’s recent history.

Discussions then took place concerning the other telephone calls with Mr Mosley from, among others, Bernie Ecclestone, Ron Dennis and Tony George, and it was clearly revealed to what extent Mr Mosley was prepared to go in order to achieve his aims. To my total disgust, it was stated that Mosley had informed Mr Martin, the FIA’s most senior representative in the USA, that if any kind of non- championship race was run, or any alteration made to the circuit, the US Grand Prix, and indeed, all FIA-regulated motorsport in the US, would be under threat – again, exactly the same tactic that was used in threatening the Australian Grand Prix and Australian motorsport in March of this year.

By now, it was evident Mosley had bullied the US Grand Prix promoter into submission, Bernie Ecclestone was powerless to intervene, and all efforts of the Team Principals, with the exception of Jean Todt, had failed to save the 2005 US Grand Prix.

At this point, the pit lane had opened and a hasty discussion took place concerning whether or not the Michelin teams would go to the grid. A radio had been delivered to me by team personnel at this stage, and I was able to know which cars were going to the grid. It is interesting to note that the Jordan Team Principal was not present at this time, and indeed, it was the Jordans that first proceeded to the grid, followed by the Ferraris. After discussion with Bernie Ecclestone, it was agreed the Michelin teams would go to the grid, but were absolutely prevented from participating in the race because of the tyre situation.

We then proceeded to the grid, at which point I asked Jordan’s Colin Kolles if he intended to stand by the other teams or participate in the race. In no uncertain terms, I was told Jordan would be racing. I was also approached by a Bridgestone representative, who informed me that Bridgestone wished us to race. This left me with one of the most difficult decisions I have had to take during my time in F1, as I did not want to race, but given my current relationship with Mr Mosley, felt certain heavy sanctions would follow if I did not. I made it clear to Bernie Ecclestone, and several Team Principals, that if the Jordans either went off or retired, I would withdraw the Minardi cars from the race.

It is important for people to realise that Minardi, the seven Michelin teams, Bernie Ecclestone, and the promoters did not agree with Mr Mosley’s tactics. For the reasons previously outlined, it may take some considerable time, if ever, for this to be admitted, but there is no question in my mind that the farce that occurred on Sunday, June 19, 2005 at Indianapolis was the responsibility of the FIA President, Max Mosley, and compounded by the lack of support from Jean Todt.

For the avoidance of doubt, in my opinion, Michelin was responsible enough to admit that the problem was of their creation. When one considers that even the replacement, Barcelona-specification tyres that were shipped to IMS, when tested, apparently exhibited the same characteristics as those that originally failed, this clearly is a case of force majeure, as I do not for a moment believe that Michelin intentionally brought tyres to the event that were unsuitable for competition.

Far more importantly, however, Mosley refused to accept any of the solutions offered, and that refusal was, I believe, politically motivated. Therefore, I feel he failed in his duty, and that is why I have called for his resignation.

Much discussion and debate will undoubtedly take place over the coming weeks and months, but I believe this is a truthful and honest account of the facts, and not the fiction, surrounding the responsibility for this FIAsco. People can now make up their own minds!"
Old 06-22-2005 | 08:28 PM
  #65  
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You just beat me to it.

I find it very interesting and very revealing on the nature of the relations between FIA and F1 people. It really brings an enhanced insight on what is brewing with GPWC.

Paul Stoddart has always been very volubile, and I respect that. There has to be at least one in the gang who wouldn't be so PC and actually explain what's going on.
Old 06-24-2005 | 03:06 AM
  #66  
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Poor Michelin, look at what I found.

Old 06-24-2005 | 11:33 AM
  #67  
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the Michelin h8 is going around...

Old 06-24-2005 | 03:18 PM
  #68  
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Michelin is in a better position by not competing rather than competing causing fatal consequences. Take a good look at the Firestone/Ford-Explorer incident. It takes Firestone even more $$ in PR and marketing to try to restore the Firestone image.
Old 06-24-2005 | 04:40 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Michelin is in a better position by not competing rather than competing causing fatal consequences. Take a good look at the Firestone/Ford-Explorer incident. It takes Firestone even more $$ in PR and marketing to try to restore the Firestone image.
Dont get me wrong. I think Michelin did the ONLY thing they could do. They were 100% correct in telling the teams not to run. I only posted what I did because it was funny.

the track was completely resurfaced over the winter. Bridgestone had an advantage with their sister company Firestone already running the Indy 500 this year.
This statement here by can not be MORE correct. IMHO, I think the FIA could have done something better. I dont blame Ferrari and the other Bridgestone teams for running the race either. Not their fault that Michelin screwed up. It is just soooo sad that it even happened. And here at the US Grand Prix! They should move the USGP to Laguna Seca!!!! The Brickyard is for guys who dont know how to turn right anyways!!!

BTW, I also think Bernie is an ASSHAT!!!
Old 06-24-2005 | 05:22 PM
  #70  
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actually guys... we need to correct something... MICHELIN did not tell teams not to run. They simply said that they cannot run at full speed at turn 13, which cause for safety concerns. They are runnable, but they cannot guarantee the tires will last.
Old 06-24-2005 | 05:25 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by AztecRol
Dont get me wrong. I think Michelin did the ONLY thing they could do. They were 100% correct in telling the teams not to run. I only posted what I did because it was funny.
:metoo:
Old 06-25-2005 | 07:51 PM
  #72  
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http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...ge%5fid=364069

Old 06-26-2005 | 03:52 PM
  #73  
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Just in case any of you didn't catch this during the Cleveland Champ Car race. Derek Daley said he recently spoke with Al Speyer, the Executive Director of Motorsports for Firestone, about the FIAsco. Mr. Speyer said that not only did Firestone not provide any information to Bridgestone about IMS, Firestone ran the exact same tire at this year's 500 as they did at last year's 500 and saw the same amount of wear or less. IMO, that pretty much takes the new track surface out of the equation regarding what Michelin could have missed in their F1 tire design.
Old 06-26-2005 | 07:16 PM
  #74  
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Well according to ChampCar, 1100 fans got free admission to todays Cleaveland GP by bringing their USGP ticket stubs. Cool.
Old 06-27-2005 | 12:25 AM
  #75  
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y are we still talking about this? it sucked ass, but lets get over it gentlemen, its over...





















































Old 06-28-2005 | 01:08 PM
  #76  
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Michelin to refund US GP tickets

Link Here

Michelin has announced that it is to contribute to the costs incurred by spectators at the United States Grand Prix by offering to refund their tickets. The company will also buy 20,000 tickets for next year's race and will give them to spectators who were present at this year's race.

"This is an important decision, since Michelin is not at all legally bound to do this," the company said in a statement. "Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the Indianapolis race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators. Michelin also offers to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 US Grand Prix to be given to spectators who were present at the Indianapolis race in 2005. We are offering this to promote further Formula 1 interest in the United States. We would also like to take this opportunity to underline the fact that it is unacceptable that our partner teams have been accused by the FIA of having boycotted the Indianapolis Grand Prix."

The statement went on to say that Michelin and its partners did "everything possible to assure that the race could take place in total safety".

"We are extremely disappointed that the proposals made with all our teams were not accepted," Michelin went on. "These proposals, including a chicane, were technically viable and totally met all safety requirements. On Sunday morning, June 19, the sporting authority had all the means necessary to preserve the interest of the race. And yet, the sporting authority rejected the proposed solutions. Why? In our view this is totally incomprehensible and reflects a lack of respect for the spectators. It is the spirit of respect for the spectators that brought us, with our partners, to propose solutions to allow the race to take place in total safety. It is this same spirit that leads us today to make this gesture."
Old 06-28-2005 | 01:39 PM
  #77  
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wow - that is amazing.... almost too amazing...

I will believe it when I have the money in my hand.
Old 06-28-2005 | 01:59 PM
  #78  
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good gesture my Michelin. I hope the teams and FIA will follow as well...

I'm hoping that the outcome of tomorrow's meeting won't cause the same teams again to pull out of the grand prix on Sunday in France.

I hear/read from a team owner if the consequences were very harsh that some teams or a lot of teams may pull out and not race. Hopefully this won't happen. If it did, FIA and the teams now have to worry about French in addition to US.
Old 06-28-2005 | 02:39 PM
  #79  
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Hmmph, wonder how much of the 1,000 I spent for two suite seats will get reimbursed? Actually, face value was $375 each. I'm certainly gonna try!
Old 06-29-2005 | 06:28 AM
  #80  
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The latest from Paris ... does not look good at all

Link Here

Rumours are that BAR is facing a ban - in which case it is anticipated that BAT and Honda would announce that they would pull out of the championship.


Quick Reply: F1 fans got shafted especially US fans



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