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Old 07-25-2007, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
So what happened that made mortgage rates jump over night ? That can't help the housing market any.
They haven't exactly jumped overnight. The Fed had raised rates steadily by 25 basis points at each FOMC meeting starting in June of 04 to June 06 (1.0 - 5.25) and has held overnight rates steady since then.

10 year treasuries (mortgage benchmark) are actually close to the same yields from Jun 04.

What has made the market perceive that mortage rates are significantly higher is because many bubble chasers financed their loans with ARM's and now those are adjusting to higher levels, since shorter rates were indeed lower the previous few years.

Now that credit is tighter and it's more difficult for people to get piggyback loans, many borrowers are stuck with the adjusted rate and are unable to refinance into fixed rate because either A. their credit sucks B. they don't qualify C. there is no increased equity to withdraw -- or any combination of the three.
Old 07-25-2007, 05:18 PM
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^^ Thank you for that information, but I literally mean over-night.

I was referring to a "jump" in rates of about 0.375% from yesterday to today. Since I am considering buyng a house, I check rates daily and noticed a significant increase this morning over yesterday.
Old 07-25-2007, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
I was referring to a "jump" in rates of about 0.375% from yesterday to today.
That doesn't compute. Quoted from the same lender???

I watch bond yields very closely and the curve was pretty much unchanged today over Tuesday. Mortgage originations can't be that much different between SoCal and Motown.
Old 07-25-2007, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
That doesn't compute. Quoted from the same lender???

I watch bond yields very closely and the curve was pretty much unchanged today over Tuesday. Mortgage originations can't be that much different between SoCal and Motown.
It might be a little closer to 0.25%, but that is still a significant change with no real news.

I check here to see relative rates and noticed each lender (or brokerage) increased at least 0.25% with pretty much the same buy down costs:
http://www.greenlightloans.com/Green...web/index.aspx
Old 07-25-2007, 07:51 PM
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Profits tumbled yesterday for the nation's largest home mortgage firm - Countrywide Financial - even as its chief Angelo Mozilo was quietly cashing out a $118.2 million options windfall ahead of its new troubles.

The company reported a 33 percent drop in profits, and expects deep losses across the industry in the wake of housing's thundering crash that's sending cracks this summer throughout the financial services landscape.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07252007...paul_tharp.htm

"We are experiencing home price depreciation almost like never before, with the exception of the Great Depression"

"As I try to walk through what happened there and could a lot of this have been foreseen ... nobody saw this coming"

- Angelo Mozilo, Countrywide Mortgage CEO, July 2007

Saying this was unexpected, when he's unloaded this much stock:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=CFC

Kind of makes you wonder.

How is this not subject to an SEC investigation?
Old 07-27-2007, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
That doesn't compute. Quoted from the same lender???

I watch bond yields very closely and the curve was pretty much unchanged today over Tuesday. Mortgage originations can't be that much different between SoCal and Motown.
Rates appear to have gone up again since yesterday. I have no idea why

With all the woes of subprime loans, raising rates will compound the problem, since the adjustables will rise faster and force more defaults.
Old 07-27-2007, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
Rates appear to have gone up again since yesterday. I have no idea why
I just got quoted a 15 yr fixed at 6.375, doesn't seem so bad to me. We need to lock sometime in August.


With all the woes of subprime loans, raising rates will compound the problem, since the adjustables will rise faster and force more defaults.
Old 07-27-2007, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
I just got quoted a 15 yr fixed at 6.375, doesn't seem so bad to me. We need to lock sometime in August.
Conforming or Jumbo? And I was getting quoted right around that rate for a 30 yr fixed jumbo about a week ago, with no closing costs - only $300 application fee.
Originally Posted by Fibonacci
X2 - I knew it was, but it seems like raising the rates will hurt the mortgage industry more than it will help. IOW - WHY THE HELL ARE THEY DOING IT?
Old 07-27-2007, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
Conforming or Jumbo?
Conforming.



WHY THE HELL ARE THEY DOING IT?
Because lenders have woken up to the fact that the easy money game is gone. Remember that mortgage brokers don't keep the loans they originate, they sell them off so that they can be securitized -- which hedge funds and institutional investors would purchase. Look what's happening with credit spreads, everyone is demanding more yield to compensate for the perceived additional risk.

So even though the FOMC hasn't raised overnight rates since June 2006 and treasury prices are rising (yields falling) because of a flight to quality. The act of lending has gotten more expensive - look at all the debt offerings which have been shelved in the last few weeks.

The price of borrowing is reverting to it's historical mean.
Old 07-29-2007, 07:51 PM
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thank god i locked in a 30 year fixed I/O with no escrow @ 5.625% back in Feb. The worst is yet to come IMO.
Old 07-29-2007, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by zamo
thank god i locked in a 30 year fixed I/O with no escrow @ 5.625% back in Feb. The worst is yet to come IMO.
Zamo, Why I/O???
Old 07-30-2007, 03:03 PM
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If Wall Street wants to get even more worried about the real estate market, it need look no further than southern California. There, the culprits aren't just the bad-credit borrowers whom banks and lenders loaded up with ballooning debt to purchase their dream homes. The well-to-do have partaken of those treacherous loans as well. And now everyone is hard pressed to pay as interest rates rise.

The spectacularly bad trend was coupled with news from mega-mortgage lender Countrywide Financial that homeowners with good credit are starting to fall behind on mortgage payments. It has all contributed to a contagiously pessimistic mood. "We thought the upper end of the market was immune," says Steve Johnson, of real estate consulting firm Metrostudy. "But this is now like Kudzu in the South, spreading into all product types in the southern California housing market."

http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...647607,00.html
Old 07-30-2007, 04:27 PM
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Five Signs That Subprime Infection Is Worsening

By Mark Gilbert July 30 (Bloomberg)

The collapse in subprime mortgages doesn't pose ``any threat to the overall economy,'' U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said last week. He would, wouldn't he? He's hardly going to advocate we all stock up on tinned food and bottled water in our basements.

The tremors from the subprime debacle are vibrating throughout the interconnected web of modern global financial markets. Derivatives, corporate debt, loans and bank stocks are all getting trashed. Here are five reasons to expect the turmoil to worsen.

Don't Bet on Helicopter Ben . . .

A week ago, traders in the futures and options markets were pricing the chances of December interest-rate cuts from the U.S. Federal Reserve at about 21 percent. Prices now suggest a 47 percent chance that Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke will sanction lower borrowing costs to rescue the mortgage market, based on July 26 closing levels.

The rapid turnaround in interest-rate expectations shows the financial community is far from convinced that the wider economy is immune from the woes afflicting particular pockets of the bond and credit markets.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ageDhNv.n1A4
Old 07-30-2007, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
^^ Thank you for that information, but I literally mean over-night.

I was referring to a "jump" in rates of about 0.375% from yesterday to today. Since I am considering buyng a house, I check rates daily and noticed a significant increase this morning over yesterday.
Interest rates are back down.
Today’s Average Mortgage Rates
Loan Type Rate APR
30-yr Fixed 6.26% 6.45%
15-yr Fixed 5.93% 6.2%
5/1 ARM 5.87% 7.07%
Old 07-30-2007, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CL Type Slim
Interest rates are back down.
Today’s Average Mortgage Rates
Loan Type Rate APR
30-yr Fixed 6.26% 6.45%
15-yr Fixed 5.93% 6.2%
5/1 ARM 5.87% 7.07%
Where did you get these figures? They don't seem to bad, but not what I'm finding today.
Old 07-30-2007, 06:49 PM
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Just curious, why are you watching so closely? I was under the impression that it would be a while before you are ready. The market is incrementally volatile. Unless you will be locking the loan within 90 days why sweat it?

The rates may swing up to 1/2 point or so depending on news revived during the period. If your not near ready, just driving yourself nuts for no good reason. You can't lock early and can't change the rate. You can only put a loan rate contingency in your purchase contract.

Last edited by MR1; 07-30-2007 at 06:53 PM.
Old 07-30-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MR1
Just curious, why are you watching so closely?
1. Because I'm anal about certain things
2. Now that my wife's property is nearly sold (should close in about 2 weeks), we might jump on something if we found the right property/price.
3. Rate changes of 0.5% might make a difference on what we would purchase. I want to keep my wife's expectations in check so she doesn't fall in love with a house we can't afford (or shouldn't stretch ourselves for).
4. See #1

Originally Posted by MR1
I was under the impression that it would be a while before you are ready. The market is incrementally volatile. Unless you will be locking the loan within 90 days why sweat it?

The rates may swing up to 1/2 point or so depending on news revived during the period.
It is possible that we could move on a property within 90 days.
Old 07-30-2007, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
1. Because I'm anal about certain things
2. Now that my wife's property is nearly sold (should close in about 2 weeks), we might jump on something if we found the right property/price.
3. Rate changes of 0.5% might make a difference on what we would purchase. I want to keep my wife's expectations in check so she doesn't fall in love with a house we can't afford (or shouldn't stretch ourselves for).
4. See #1

It is possible that we could move on a property within 90 days.
I understand but 90 days is the outside limit for which you may want to pay to lock a rate. That period does not start until after you have an accepted offer and final loan approval.

If you are really anal, worry about your buyer remaining qualified and finalizing that transaction first. But, they told me to only worry about the things that I can control. Anyway, good luck.
Old 07-31-2007, 01:15 PM
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Riskiest U.S. Housing Markets (Forbes)

Those looking to spin the real estate roulette wheel might want to steer clear of Miami. It ranks first on our list of the nation's riskiest real estate markets.

There, a high share of adjustable-rate mortgages, high vacancy rates and slumping prices still too elevated for the local populous means should long-term bond yields climb, interest rates jump or the housing crisis linger much longer, things could go from bad to worse.

Affairs are not much better farther north--or west. Following in Miami's wake are Orlando, Sacramento and San Francisco.

1) Miami
2) Orlando
3) Sacramento
4) San Fran
5) San Diego
6) Phoenix
7) KC
8) Cincy
9) Chicago
10) Denver

http://promo.realestate.yahoo.com/ri...g_markets.html
Old 07-31-2007, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Zamo, Why I/O???
Fixed was just 0.125% less and decided to pocket the cash and diversify investments. My rental is covering both interest and principal.
Old 07-31-2007, 06:43 PM
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Jim Cramer says to just default on your mortgage if you're in a bad regional market.
Old 07-31-2007, 07:51 PM
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^^ Wow wow wee wah


Housing market ---> <--- US Economy


Greenspan may have to readjust his call on recession next year, looks like the odds are now better than 30%
Old 07-31-2007, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by amisconception
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Jim Cramer says to just default on your mortgage if you're in a bad regional market.

Yesterday on Mad Money he was saying that he would set his house on fire and collect the insurance.
Old 07-31-2007, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by doopstr
Yesterday on Mad Money he was saying that he would set his house on fire and collect the insurance.
Sounds like a great exit plan.

Now watch arson skyrocket. Not because of Jim just general circumstances.
Old 08-01-2007, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by amisconception
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Jim Cramer says to just default on your mortgage if you're in a bad regional market.
Love Cramer and find him VERY entertaining but, that is NOT good advice not matter what region you live in. Provide one is gainfully employed, can make the payments (if none other) AND provided the neighborhood does not become a Love Canal (toxic waste) or a Camden NJ (high crime), one should hold onto that house as long as financially possible. Real Estate values tend to bounce back at one point or another and a patient owner can reap the benefits in time.

Granted the equity fallout due to an overinflated market does hurt (thank you speculators). However, I believe this is temporary (even in the midwest, southwest and southeast) if not short term. And if nothing else, simply uprooting the family and abandoning the home is simply not an option.

(I will not even dignify the arson angle from Mad Money, though I hope it was a tongue-in-cheek comment as insurance fraud is a felony.....which will come back to bite one in the arse far worst than any real estate losses)
Old 08-02-2007, 04:28 PM
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The Capital Markets at Work...

Teh rooster is coming home to nest...

The ninth largest mortgage originator is tightening up it's lending practices and the nations 10th largest, American Home Mortgage will be closing it's doors on Friday.

Indymac to Make `Major Changes' to Mortgage Lending

IndyMac Bancorp Inc. is joining rival lenders in making ``very major changes'' to loan standards and raising interest rates because of a slump in mortgage securities, an e-mail to the company's employees said.

The market for mortgage bonds has become ``very panicked and illiquid,'' Chief Executive Officer Michael Perry wrote in the Aug. 1 e-mail. National City Corp. also told companies it buys loans from that it won't accept second mortgages and some low- documentation loans, according to a notice on its Web site.

``Unlike past private secondary mortgage market disruptions, which have lasted a few weeks or so, our industry and IndyMac have to be prudent and assume that this present disruption, which appears broader and more serious, might take longer to correct itself,'' Perry wrote.

The additional credit tightening by IndyMac, the ninth largest U.S. mortgage lender, and its rivals comes at a time when it's ``difficult'' to trade even AAA rated mortgage bonds that aren't guaranteed by government-chartered Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, or federal agency Ginnie Mae, Perry wrote.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aiYQzFpS01wU
Old 08-02-2007, 04:41 PM
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So what you all are saying is now is not a good time for me to buy my first home?
Old 08-02-2007, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
So what you all are saying is now is not a good time for me to buy my first home?

Au contraire, if you have good credit and saved up 20% for a downpayment, it's a most excellent time to be a buyer.
Old 08-02-2007, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Au contraire, if you have good credit and saved up 20% for a downpayment and need a conforming loan, it's a most excellent time to be a buyer.
fixed.

After reading your previous post, I definitely stand by my statement that non-conforming (jumbo) rates have gone up. I had a breif discussion about this yesterday with my agent/broker and he didn't believe me. He pulled out some rate sheets and showed me that conforming and non rates were within a quarter point. Then he notices the rate sheets were from nearly a month ago. Next time I talk to him I'll see if he has any more recent sheets.
Old 08-02-2007, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Au contraire, if you have good credit and saved up 20% for a downpayment, it's a most excellent time to be a buyer.

I can't get into a house around here for under $300,000. Not really even a condo. I don't know anyone my age that has $60,000 saved up for a 20% down payment.


Also, since me and my 2 roommates are living in house a friend of ours inherited my portion of the rent is only $300.

Since it appears that I wouldn't be making any equity on the house any time soon should I still really be looking to buy?
Old 08-02-2007, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
After reading your previous post, I definitely stand by my statement that non-conforming (jumbo) rates have gone up. I had a breif discussion about this yesterday with my agent/broker and he didn't believe me.

Dude, I never said non-conforming weren't more expensive. Of course they are, because conforming loans aren't bought by the Gov't Agencies - they're packaged as whole loans which have (as stated) widened considerably.

Feel free to move to MI, there are plenty of beautiful homes to buy under 500k which will allow you to have a conforming mortgage. :wink:
Old 08-02-2007, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Dude, I never said non-conforming weren't more expensive. Of course they are, because conforming loans aren't bought by the Gov't Agencies - they're packaged as whole loans which have (as stated) widened considerably.
They have always been more expensive, but until just recently, the difference was almost negligible. Now, the difference appears to be at least a full point. This seriously throws a monkey wrench in our plans.

Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Feel free to move to MI, there are plenty of beautiful homes to buy under 500k which will allow you to have a conforming mortgage. :wink:
I'll move in right next door to you so we can continue this discussion face to face. :troutslap
Old 08-02-2007, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by moeronn
This seriously throws a monkey wrench in our plans.
Ouch. Well, sorry about that -- hopefully the credit markets will calm down after this storm blows over. Also, be patient -- homes will get cheaper as sellers slowly figure out that yesterday's prices aren't today's reality.
Old 08-02-2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
Also, since me and my 2 roommates are living in house a friend of ours inherited my portion of the rent is only $300.

Since it appears that I wouldn't be making any equity on the house any time soon should I still really be looking to buy?

That rent is cheap, ride that horse for as long as you can stand.

The market in DC land will cheapen too, imo the Uncle Sam hog feader which has been subsidized by US taxpayers is bound to normalize sooner or later. The wacky coasts are overbought and overleveraged, be patient.
Old 08-02-2007, 07:16 PM
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The thing about this area is with so many government jobs and so many people losing and gaining those jobs every time the administration changes there are always a good pool of buyers and sellers. Lots of turn over in the area. Although, if I would have bought back in '03 when I left college I'd be sitting pretty high and mighty right now. Now I simply can't afford it even with a salary north of $50k
Old 08-02-2007, 07:22 PM
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^^ Dude, don't sweat it, don't regret it. How many kids right out of school buy a house? Few that I know of, unless Daddy Warbucks is paying.

You've got a great situation, seriously $300 mo rent! If you put your mind too it, I'm sure you can save like a fiend for a year or so. The RE market will not run away from you, if anything it will be flat or cheaper over the next few years and your salary will grow.
Old 08-02-2007, 07:29 PM
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Yeah $300 is ridiculously low I realize that and I'm milking it for all it's worth. I was living in a 1 bedroom apartment paying $1,050 a month. That killed any real savings for a while.

We'll see what happens in a year or so. I need a new job too...
Old 08-02-2007, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
Yeah $300 is ridiculously low I realize that and I'm milking it for all it's worth. I was living in a 1 bedroom apartment paying $1,050 a month. That killed any real savings for a while.

We'll see what happens in a year or so. I need a new job too...
With your low rent and high salary. are your kidding? You can't save up 20% down?

Not directed specifically at you but you certainly outline the problem for most. Generally it is and should be necessary to sacrifice to get the things we want. Somewhere along the line too many people got the idea that they deserve things just cause they want them.

Now, back to you. How about putting the difference between your $300 rent and payments on a $240,000 house in the bank every month? This will give you a real good idea if you really want the pleasure of owning said house. Side benefit is you will be closer to ready when prices have fallen enough. Just a random thought on my part. No offense intended.
Old 08-02-2007, 10:02 PM
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A good time for a squeeze

Tighter credit conditions are just what the markets need

BANKERS and investors might not agree, but the recent sell-off in financial markets is good news. It may, at last, have brought people to their senses. For the past few years, too much money has been lent too cheaply and too easily to too many people, whether it was speculators trying to make a fast buck in Miami condominiums or private-equity groups financing their latest multi-billion-dollar takeover. This wake-up call came too late to save the American housing market from frenzy and subsequent bust. But it may have arrived in time to stop the takeover boom getting out of control—and when the world economy is strong enough to cope with the consequences.

Watch out for the American consumer
The big question now is how serious those consequences are likely to be. The impact on debt markets themselves will be big (see article). As standards are tightened, many of the reckless practices that have become the norm in corporate lending will be abandoned. We will now hear a lot less about firms getting “covenant lite” loans, under which lenders give up their rights to monitor the behaviour of borrowers; or “payment-in-kind notes”, which allow borrowers to substitute more IOUs for interest payments. As investors steer clear of riskier debt, the takeover bids that have pumped this year's stockmarket froth will be curtailed and the most debt-laden borrowers may find it impossible to raise funds.

But most companies will be able to shrug off the credit squeeze. That is partly because creditworthy borrowers still have access to debt (albeit at a higher price), and partly because many firms don't have to borrow. Across the rich world, firms are flush with cash. Their profits have been fat for the past five years and, on average, companies have been funding their capital spending from their own resources. Credit wobbles by themselves, therefore, need not prompt an investment slump.....

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...src=nwlbtwfree
Old 08-02-2007, 10:04 PM
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fdl
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Is Fibonacci a bear for life? Just curious. Or will I one day see you in M&I posting about how the market is poised for a big run.

Once bitten , twice shy I guess.


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