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DJIA how low can it go?

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Old 03-02-2009 | 10:04 AM
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DJIA how low can it go?

Last monday I told a coworker my guess was that the bottom would be 6500 in two weeks (next week)

He said 5000 but didn't give a time.

So how long until it "bottoms out"? We are down to 6900 so far today.
Old 03-02-2009 | 10:23 AM
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We are well below the 7350 magic number.

It's a long way down.
Old 03-02-2009 | 12:01 PM
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Me and my friends have been betting on this since the moment the market started falling. I had the least optimistic prediction, guessing that it would bottom out at 7,000 (I picked a 10 year historical level as a reasonable bottom). I looked at the historical levels and said that a doubling of the dow in 10 years was BS and bound to be corrected. Most of my friends guessed 8-10k. Well, I'm sad to say that I was wrong . So how low can it go? It can go quite low. I could see 5,000. I could see 3,000, but I think that is highly unlikely without all out failure of a number of industries.
Old 03-02-2009 | 12:04 PM
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I got this off another forum:

Comparing the great depression of the 30's,
The peak was at 381.17 on Sep 29 1929, and hit its low of 41.22 on Jul 8 1932 - 1039 days later.
Just 10.8% of what it was at the peak.

In recent times, the peak was 14164.53 on Oct 9 2007.
On Friday last week, 507 days since the peak it was at 7062.93. 49.9% of the oct 2007 peak.

So I wondered where was the market 507 days after peak was in the great depression. It was at 171 on Jan 23 1931. That is 45% from 1929 peak.

Since i'm not even calculating averages and the variance is very small 45% vs 49.9% I think that the DJ will hit its low of 1531 (10.8% of oct 2007) on Friday the 13th of August 2010 (1039 days after peak).
Old 03-02-2009 | 12:05 PM
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It's moments like this I am glad that I am 22 and have no money saved. The sad part is I am stuck at a job I really, really hate in the tech industry which I don't like. I had a bunch of phone interviews with this company in TN who all seemed to love me and then told me I had to bankroll my own trip there to interview with them in person, they wouldn't give me any help or allow me to videoconference. I feel trapped /vent
Old 03-02-2009 | 12:22 PM
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Funny, I thought Obama getting elected was going to make money rain from the heavens? Funny how the market has been dropping rapidly since his election, and even more on days he pushes his spending bills through

Change we can believe in, yeah, change in my 401k dwindling down to nothing, 12 grand down and counting
Old 03-02-2009 | 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 97BlackAckCL
Funny, I thought Obama getting elected was going to make money rain from the heavens? Funny how the market has been dropping rapidly since his election, and even more on days he pushes his spending bills through
Well it is happening. The more he talks, the more it drops, the more it drops, the more 'stimulus' plans / bailouts are 'needed'.
Old 03-02-2009 | 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Python2121
It's moments like this I am glad that I am 22 and have no money saved. The sad part is I am stuck at a job I really, really hate in the tech industry which I don't like. I had a bunch of phone interviews with this company in TN who all seemed to love me and then told me I had to bankroll my own trip there to interview with them in person, they wouldn't give me any help or allow me to videoconference. I feel trapped /vent
Be luck you even have a job right now!!! NO JOB IS A BAD JOB, thats the point the economy is going towards, look at the unemployment rate, and you are bitchin about having to drive somewhere for a possible job?! They are holding all the cards right now, high unemployment rate, meaning alot of people out there that will take the job for a lesser rate. Your not trapped, you are just now getting into the job market :two cents:

Back on topic, I estimate since the DJIA is at 6800 now, and its to run up and down like this for another year. I won't make an estimation on the bottom out point though. As you can always short sell, there is a way to make money even when the markets going down
Old 03-02-2009 | 06:59 PM
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VIX Premium Shows Stocks Bear Market Lasting 2 Years

Options investors are paying twice this decade’s average to protect against losses in U.S. stocks through 2011, signaling the bear market that already wiped out $10.4 trillion of equity value may last two more years.

“There’s a real panic in the markets, with some people wanting to buy long-term insurance at any price,” said Peter Sorrentino, who helps manage $16 billion, including $130 million in options at Huntington Asset Advisors Inc. in Cincinnati. “People have lost hope.”

Contracts to protect against a decline in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index for two years cost $15,160 on the Chicago Board Options Exchange at the end of last week, compared with $6,875 in 2007, according to price-adjusted data compiled by Bloomberg. The current level shows traders expect the benchmark gauge for U.S. equities to fluctuate twice as much in the next two years as it has since 2000.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said last week the economy is in a “severe contraction” that may continue to next year unless actions to save the financial system start working. The S&P 500 lost 53 percent since peaking in October 2007 while retreats in commodities and corporate bonds drove 920 hedge funds, or 9 percent of the total, out of business last year.....


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aSmu7_hAGE9g



Unless you guys are professional traders or hedge fund managers, dunno why you are freaking out about the bear market. By loose observation, most of you are young and are net purchasers, therefore you should be rooting for cheaper assets to buy. Don't take my word for it, listen to da' man Warren Buffet yo.

I've taken a beating on my 401(k) plan just like most of you too, take your punishment like a man and keep on saving -- I'm not ready to throw in the towel in yet on the resiliency of the US economy yet, despite Obamanomics. He'll only be around for 4 years, so look at the upside -- stocks are on sale bishes!
Old 03-02-2009 | 07:07 PM
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$1 Drew...$1.
Old 03-02-2009 | 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aSmu7_hAGE9g



Unless you guys are professional traders or hedge fund managers, dunno why you are freaking out about the bear market. By loose observation, most of you are young and are net purchasers, therefore you should be rooting for cheaper assets to buy. Don't take my word for it, listen to da' man Warren Buffet yo.

I've taken a beating on my 401(k) plan just like most of you too, take your punishment like a man and keep on saving -- I'm not ready to throw in the towel in yet on the resiliency of the US economy yet, despite Obamanomics. He'll only be around for 4 years, so look at the upside -- stocks are on sale bishes!
Buy GE at 16 bucks a share...then watch it drop half its value

All kidding aside....I know what you are getting at. :wink:
Old 03-02-2009 | 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
Buy GE at 16 bucks a share...then watch it drop half its value

All kidding aside....I know what you are getting at. :wink:
I hope it doesn't go down half over again, 'cause I just piled on. I might be a little soon on the uptake, but I've never been a good bottom picker (or top for that matter ).
Old 03-02-2009 | 11:29 PM
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I'll get back to the original question. The Dow break of 6950 was pretty significant today. The dow not only broke this support level established in 1997 but also closed below it which is a double-whammy.

You need to look at a long-term chart going back to 1982 to see the big picture. In 1982, the Dow was about 730 at its low. Of coarse the Dow peaked in 2007 near 14,000. I project a Dow of 6000 in the near future. From 82 to 95, there was a relatively slow growth line. Once 1995 came, there was a much steeper growth line.

If the dow doesn't bounce at 6000 we could go down close to 4000 which is 1995 levels. My guess is a Dow of 4000 within a year is very possible in this market. I really hope I'm wrong on that dow=4000 projection. Look how quickly the Dow has trimmed 7000 points- about 15 months to go down 50%.
Old 03-03-2009 | 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
I've taken a beating on my 401(k) plan just like most of you too, take your punishment like a man and keep on saving -- I'm not ready to throw in the towel in yet on the resiliency of the US economy yet, despite Obamanomics. He'll only be around for 4 years, so look at the upside -- stocks are on sale bishes!
I'm just real excited to know that all that I've bought through my 401k over the last 5 years is well below what I bought it at originally and it will be a long time before if comes back to a net of 0.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamNJ
I'm just real excited to know that all that I've bought through my 401k over the last 5 years is well below what I bought it at originally and it will be a long time before if comes back to a net of 0.
Welcome to the real world baby. You are welcome to stuff your cash in a mattress, but that carries risk too. No one likes losing money, but if you have the right allocation, there is no reason to throw in the towel after a crappy run in the red.

Listen, I'm not a shameless market cheerleader, as a participant I've seen firsthand the massive amounts of wealth destruction and it's no fun. All the more reason to vote for politicians who reward saving, investing and job creation as opposed to those who would strangle what made our country great.
Old 03-04-2009 | 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
You are welcome to stuff your cash in a mattress, but that carries risk too.
If you did keep all your money in your savings instead of the markets, then you are better off then the 80% of people out there. If you moved your cash into Silver/Gold, then you are better then 95% of the people out there.
Old 03-04-2009 | 11:05 AM
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The only thing that I have done differently is to dollar cost-average (i.e. buy stock in my IRA automatically through my paycheck) my IRA. Any extra money I get (since I'm the only one working) we're putting 50% in our MMA, 15% in my and my wife's IRA, 10% in my son's college account, and we get to have fun with the rest of the money (to keep sane). I've been putting in mad overtime (and stressed myself out in the process), but the extra money is nice.

I truly am thankful that I have one of the most stable jobs in an economy like this, and that I can continue to save and have a house over my head.
Old 03-04-2009 | 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by T Ho
I hope it doesn't go down half over again, 'cause I just piled on. I might be a little soon on the uptake, but I've never been a good bottom picker (or top for that matter ).
I'm gonna laugh about this someday.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:GE
Old 03-05-2009 | 11:44 AM
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Going lower today. Funny, I watched BNN, Canadian business news network. An analyst was saying we may see DOW go down to 2000 to 800...then the news program was cut off for some reason. Hmmm....seems like they are suppressing the truth.

I say if you are trying to lie about the situation then you might was well work for the Wall Street thief’s out there.
Old 03-05-2009 | 02:40 PM
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...and the bleeding doesn't stop.

Electing a rookie to the White House is really gonna come back to bite us in the a$$.

Bailout, Tax, Budget policies & ideas are akin to the inmates running the asylum.
Old 03-05-2009 | 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
...and the bleeding doesn't stop.

Electing a rookie to the White House is really gonna come back to bite us in the a$$.

Bailout, Tax, Budget policies & ideas are akin to the inmates running the asylum.
well moog, the 'people' did want 'change' they just never said they wanted things to change for the better.
Old 03-05-2009 | 03:59 PM
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Closing under 6600 today.
Which political snob opened their mouth today?
Old 03-05-2009 | 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TS_eXpeed
Which political snob opened their mouth today?
does this count?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Dow-an...-14560034.html
Dow and S&P hit 12-year lows
Thursday March 5, 2009, 5:29 pm EST
Reuters - The Dow industrials and the S&P 500 slid to 12-year lows on Thursday as General Motors' warning of ...

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks slid on Thursday with the Dow and S&P falling to 12-year lows as General Motors' warning of possible bankruptcy and concerns about the banking system's fate reinforced investors' reluctance to take on risk.

The previous session's rally proved fleeting as worries about the financial system's health hit bank stocks again and investors focused on the possibility that troubles in the finance arm of widely held General Electric could lead to a debt rating downgrade for the entire company.

GE's stock was down 0.5 percent at $6.66 after falling to its lowest since 1991 a day earlier. Uncertainty about the exposure of U.S. banks to GE remained a significant concern and the S&P financial index fell nearly 10 percent.

Shares of Citigroup, once the world's largest bank by market value, fell as low as 97 cents during the session, trading below $1 for the first time. Anxiety rose over whether the bank can be restored to health or whether it will have to be taken over by the government.

"The loss of confidence is pervasive. There isn't any magic bullet here that's going to save Citi or Bank of America. The only thing that might save them is if the government comes in and sponsors a bankruptcy," said John Schloegel, a vice president of Capital Cities Asset Management in Austin, Texas.

The Dow Jones industrial average fell 281.40 points, or 4.09 percent, to 6,594.44. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index lost 30.32 points, or 4.25 percent, to 682.55. The Nasdaq Composite Index dropped 54.15 points, or 4.00 percent, to 1,299.59.

General Motors shed 15.5 percent to $1.86 after its auditors raised "substantial doubt" about the automaker's viability if it fails to head off losses and stop burning through cash.

Investors worry that GM's collapse would send shock waves through the recession-hit U.S. economy, given that it is a major employer and buyer of supplies from auto parts makers.

NASDAQ AT 6-YEAR LOW

The Nasdaq closed at its lowest level since March 2003, a month remembered for the beginning of the Iraq war. Both the Dow and S&P 500 are down more than 24 percent for the year so far, with the broad S&P shedding 56 percent from 2007's all-time high. U.S. stocks have lost around $11 trillion in value since hitting all-time highs in October 2007.

Indexes more than gave back Wednesday's rally, which was spurred by news of a Chinese economic stimulus plan. But those hopes were dashed on Thursday morning when Premier Wen Jiabao, speaking to parliament, did not announce any expansion of China's stimulus package.

Moody's Investor Service said on Wednesday it may cut its ratings on Wells Fargo and Bank of America, helping drive Wells Fargo down 15.94 percent at $8.12 and pushing Bank of America down 11.7 percent at $3.17.

Citigroup's stock closed at $1.02, down 11 cents, or off 9.7 percent for the day in NYSE trading.

Exxon Mobil was the Dow's biggest drag, dropping 5.3 percent to $62.22 as U.S. front-month crude lost $1.77 to settle at $43.61 a barrel, pressured by deteriorating global economic prospects.

On the upside, shares of Wal-Mart added 2.6 percent to $49.75 after the world's largest retailer posted solid monthly sales and raised its annual dividend by 15 percent. Of the 30 Dow industrials, only two -- Wal-Mart and Pfizer -- finished higher. Pfizer gained 1.4 percent to $12.67 after Goldman Sachs reinstated coverage with a "buy" rating.

DIRE JOBS REPORT EXPECTED

Grim economic reports signaling more fallout from the recession added to the negative tone ahead of Friday's key non-farm payrolls report. Data is expected to show the economy shed 648,000 jobs in February, while the unemployment rate is expected to rise to a 25-year high of 7.9 percent, according to a Reuters poll of economists.

Indeed, the White House said that it doesn't expect to see good news out of the jobs report.

A report on Thursday showed new orders received by U.S. factories fell for a sixth straight month in January. The Mortgage Bankers Association said that one in every eight U.S. households with mortgages, a record share, ended 2008 behind on their payments or in foreclosure.

Trading was active on the New York Stock Exchange, with about 1.88 billion shares changing hands, above last year's estimated daily average of 1.49 billion, while on Nasdaq, about 2.34 billion shares traded, above last year's daily average of 2.28 billion.

Declining stocks outnumbered advancing ones on the NYSE by about 12 to 1, while on the Nasdaq, about six stocks fell for every one that rose.
Old 03-05-2009 | 06:30 PM
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It was actually from new on China, they rumored 500billion they were rumored to spend on infrastructure projects yesterday was official confirmed as false.
Old 03-06-2009 | 01:32 AM
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emotional rollercoaster for some lol
Old 03-06-2009 | 01:55 AM
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Looking for it to go down even more. Hoping that it will go as low as 5,000. That way I can save up some money and start buying. In 4 yrs, cha ching!
Old 03-06-2009 | 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SupaRookie
Looking for it to go down even more. Hoping that it will go as low as 5,000. That way I can save up some money and start buying. In 4 yrs, cha ching!
Pray that your dollars still have any purchasing power left to get anything at 5k.....
Old 03-06-2009 | 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by special-ed
Pray that your dollars still have any purchasing power left to get anything at 5k.....
I don't know if even in a devastated market your going to see the dollar's purchasing power disapper simply because it's the worlds currency.
Old 03-06-2009 | 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
I don't know if even in a devastated market your going to see the dollar's purchasing power disapper simply because it's the worlds currency.
and what happens if it does not remain the single world's reserve currency.....?
Old 03-06-2009 | 11:58 AM
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Well it looks like the 6500 in 2 weeks was accurate with it touching just under 6520 so far. IDK that it will be the bottom though unless magic happens over the weekend.
Old 03-06-2009 | 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by special-ed
and what happens if it does not remain the single world's reserve currency.....?


like when the market tanks futher and the 'similulus' packages keep coming; the world loses faith and starts dropping all the dollars they's hoarded over the years.
Old 03-06-2009 | 02:10 PM
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^^ and if they bail out of the US dollar.....what currency do they run to?
Old 03-06-2009 | 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
^^ and if they bail out of the US dollar.....what currency do they run to?
:bingo: there's not really any choices out there that are structurally any better than the USD
Old 03-06-2009 | 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by special-ed
and what happens if it does not remain the single world's reserve currency.....?
What are the alternatives? Euro? Yen? Pound? Yuan? Peso? by the time confidence is lost in USD, confidence will be lost in all the other global currencies. so there will be no point in switching reserve currencies.
Old 03-06-2009 | 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
What are the alternatives? Euro? Yen? Pound? Yuan? Peso? by the time confidence is lost in USD, confidence will be lost in all the other global currencies. so there will be no point in switching reserve currencies.
If you're willing to put all your trust in the "mighty" US dollar then so be it. I know what I'm going to do....
Old 03-07-2009 | 05:22 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVLV7LxKGiI&NR=1
Old 03-08-2009 | 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
^^ and if they bail out of the US dollar.....what currency do they run to?
That's the thing, you guys aren't thinking outside of the box. Why does it have to be regulated to one single reserve currency?
Old 03-08-2009 | 04:04 PM
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Slash and burn

Stockmarkets grapple with savage reductions in companies’ dividends

IT FELT like death by a thousand cuts. Already this month has seen plenty to rattle stockmarkets, from dreadful economic news to the continuing bloodshed at American International Group, an insurer. Commodity firms were given a reprieve on March 4th by hopes of a big stimulus package in China—though all they got was reaffirmation of the country’s 8% growth target. Meanwhile, a new fear haunts the markets: the mounting number of firms slashing their dividends.

That banks and insurance companies will chop their payments is now understood, but the pain has spread. General Electric (GE) has cut its dividend for the first time in 71 years, Dow Chemical for the first time since 1912. In Europe previously reliable payers like Telecom Italia and Anglo-American, a mining firm, have reduced their payouts, and even BP has said it cannot increase its dividend at today’s oil prices. Income investors were left to ponder Eurotunnel, the operator of the rail link between France and Britain, which will pay the first dividend since its creation in 1986. Its $9m may buy a few tissues for those mourning the loss of $9 billion of annual payouts from GE alone.

Based on experience since the second world war, investors had cause to be more optimistic. Although stock prices and earnings move up and down violently, dividends have been more reliable, typically falling from the peak of a cycle to its trough by only one-tenth in real terms. Furthermore, the share of American earnings paid out as dividends has declined from a post-war peak of almost two-thirds to about one-third in 2007, with many firms preferring stock buybacks (which have now ground to a halt). That should have given companies a bigger buffer.....
http://www.economist.com/finance/dis...src=nwlbtwfree
Old 03-08-2009 | 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Black Tire
What this guy fails to mention is that currency is traded in pairs to the US dollar....
Old 03-09-2009 | 10:36 AM
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