Money & Investing Learn how to get rich on the housing bubble and the bull market…

Deflation vs. Inflation Argument on FSN

Thread Tools
 
Old 09-12-2009, 05:57 PM
  #1  
99 TL, 06 E350
Thread Starter
 
Black Tire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Age: 44
Posts: 5,030
Received 164 Likes on 110 Posts
Post Deflation vs. Inflation Argument on FSN

Excellent interview with Peter Schiff:

50 mins long, but worth a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eksf2ScG6yU
Old 09-14-2009, 12:22 AM
  #2  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
I'm afraid Peter will be proven right. I hope the readers of this forum start preparing for this because a major crisis could be here in less than two years. Don't think that is possible? Argentina had a big bout of inflation in this decade.

Here's a blurb from the wiki on Argentina inflation:

After much deliberation, Duhalde abandoned in January 2002 the fixed 1-to-1 peso-dollar parity that had been in place for ten years. In a matter of days, the peso lost a large part of its value in the unregulated market. A provisional "official" exchange rate was set at 1.4 pesos per dollar.
In addition to the corralito, the Ministry of Economy dictated the pesificación ("peso-ification"), by which all bank accounts denominated in dollars would be converted to pesos at official rate. This measure angered most savings holders and appeals were made by many citizens to declare it unconstitutional.
After a few months, the exchange rate was left to float more or less freely. The peso suffered a huge depreciation, which in turn prompted inflation (since Argentina depended heavily on imports, and had no means to replace them locally at the time).
The economic situation became steadily worse with regards to inflation and unemployment during 2002. By that time the original 1-to-1 rate had skyrocketed to nearly 4 pesos per dollar, while the accumulated inflation since the devaluation was about 80%. (It should be noted that these figures were considerably lower than those foretold by most orthodox economists at the time.) The quality of life of the average Argentinian was lowered proportionally; many businesses closed or went bankrupt, many imported products became virtually inaccessible, and salaries were left as they were before the crisis.
Since the volume of pesos didn't fit the demand for cash (not even after the devaluation) huge quantities of a wide spectrum of complementary currency kept circulating alongside them. Fears of hyperinflation as a consequence of devaluation quickly eroded the attractiveness of their associated revenue, originally stated in convertible pesos. Their acceptability now ultimately depended on the State's willingness to take them as payment of taxes and other charges, consequently becoming very irregular. Very often they were taken at less than their nominal value -while the Patacón was frequently accepted at the same value as peso, Entre Ríos's Federal was among the worst-faring, at an average 30% as the provincial government that had issued them was reluctant to take them back. There were also frequent rumors that the Government would simply banish complementary currency overnight (instead of redeeming them, even at disadvantageous rates), leaving their holders with useless printed paper.
[edit]
Old 09-14-2009, 03:02 PM
  #3  
werd
 
amisconception's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,078
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
How funny, I was just going to post this.
Old 09-16-2009, 08:34 PM
  #4  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=stagflation

vs.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=stagflation


Old 09-16-2009, 08:35 PM
  #5  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Greenspan Sees Threat U.S. Congress Will Hamper Fed

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said he’s worried that lawmakers will hamper U.S. central bank efforts to rein in its monetary stimulus, and that inflation might “swamp” the bond market.

“It’s the politics in the United States that worries me, whether the Congress will basically feel comfortable” with the Fed withdrawing its stimulus, Greenspan said in a broadcast to Tokyo clients of Deutsche Bank Securities Inc. today. He later said that “if inflation rears its head, it will swamp long-term markets,” referring to bonds.

With U.S. unemployment running at a quarter-century high, the Fed may face resistance from lawmakers as it tries to promote price stability by raising its benchmark interest rate from near zero. The jobless rate reached 9.7 percent last month and employers have cut almost 7 million jobs, the biggest drop in any recession since World War II.

The former Fed chief, who counts Deutsche Bank among his clients, also warned that the U.S. must rein in its “very dangerous” level of debt, citing the threat of increased issuance of Treasuries undermining the dollar.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ac4B.y_jKnmw
Old 09-16-2009, 08:42 PM
  #6  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Originally Posted by LaCostaRacer
I'm afraid Peter will be proven right. I hope the readers of this forum start preparing for this because a major crisis could be here in less than two years. Don't think that is possible? Argentina had a big bout of inflation in this decade.

Less than two years?

Unless the Chinamen unleash the Renminbi peg to the US Dollar and becomes the new global reserve currency, your prediction may be a tad early. Not saying it can't or won't happen eventually, but the Dollar (despite its current weakness) is still King. The Dollar has replaced the Yen as the cheap source of funding for the carry trade, and while the trade is getting crowded, it looks like a tad oversold on a relative basis. Its not as if the Eurozone is exactly going gangbusters, the whole worlds got issues. Even China is trying to curb the asset bubbles.
Old 09-17-2009, 12:28 AM
  #7  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
^ yes, but all it takes is for the Chinese and Japanese to skip a couple of T-Bill/Bond auctions and things will change dramatically. Those two countries are the biggest purchasers of U.S. debt and things will change if they stop buying notes from us. All the smaller country purchases will follow suit in quick order and then see what happens to the almighty dollar- it will make a Peso look good.

I actually hope the prediction doesn't come true, but you can not ignore what's happening with gold and silver. My last Silver dollar order bought Eagles for $17.93 on 9/4- these are now $19.42 on 9/16. That's an 8.3% gain and I haven't even received the order yet. To be fair, the SP500 is up about 5% during the time frame. Commodities prices are accellerating because of the fear of inflation.

There was a book called 'Bankruptcy 1995' that predicted bad stuff happening in 1995- obviously that was a little early. Nothing has fundamentally changed since that book was written- except the interest rates got amazingly low and temporarily stopped things.

We still have ever-growing deficits and little if anything has been done to resolve the deficits. The U.S. talks a good talk about cutting spending but nothing actually happens. You think two years is too early, but I could counter that this event is actually about 9 years too late based on models set forth in that book. I wish I still had that book but my Wife through it out after 2000 thinking it was outdated.
Old 09-17-2009, 04:00 AM
  #8  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Originally Posted by LaCostaRacer
^ yes, but all it takes is for the Chinese and Japanese to skip a couple of T-Bill/Bond auctions and things will change dramatically. Those two countries are the biggest purchasers of U.S. debt and things will change if they stop buying notes from us.

I'm in agreement on most of your points and if you look at my posts in recent years, I have been warning of the same things. But, an outright buyers strike is probably remote, we are however seeing folks start to creep away from the party.

Foreign Demand for Long-Term U.S. Assets Weakened

International demand for long-term U.S. financial assets weakened in July as investors cut purchases of Treasuries by more than a third from the prior month.

Net buying of long-term equities, notes and bonds totaled $15.3 billion for the month, compared with purchases of $90.2 billion in June, the Treasury Department said today in Washington. Including short-term securities such as stock swaps, foreigners sold a net $97.5 billion in July, compared with net selling of $56.8 billion the previous month.

Emerging economies such as China and Russia have questioned the dollar’s dominance in the global economy because of a federal budget deficit projected to exceed $1.5 trillion in the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30. Investors abroad were also net sellers of U.S. corporate and agency debt in July.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aJCoTwrPc1QE
Old 10-05-2009, 07:22 PM
  #9  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Fed Needs Goldilocks for Roach Motel Check-Out

If only the moderator had called on me, I might have gotten an answer to my questions and left with more confidence in the Federal Reserve’s ability to pull off its exit strategy without a hitch.

Speaking at a conference in Washington last week sponsored by the Cato Institute and Shadow Open Market Committee, a group of self-appointed Fed watchers, Fed Vice Chairman Don Kohn reiterated the conditions and tools for withdrawing excess liquidity already outlined by Fed chief Ben Bernanke.

The tools include raising the interest rate the Fed pays on reserve balances to put a floor under short-term rates; draining reserves via outright sales of securities or reverse repurchase agreements; and allowing loans made under the Fed’s “unusual and exigent circumstances” authority to wind down, paring the central bank’s balance sheet through natural attrition.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aWFh73J.vsZg
Old 11-29-2009, 08:02 AM
  #10  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
On Wall Street: Apocalypse how?

Confused about what the future holds for the economy? So are financial markets.

Record gold prices and negative US Treasury yields are strange bedfellows, indicating general uneasiness but also conflicting bets on inflation or deflation.

As the great economist Woody Allen once put it: “More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”

Fear that one’s net worth might evaporate is, of course, no laughing matter. In spite of the fact that risk appetite has come roaring back, it is hard to reconcile resurgent optimism with the eventual fiscal and monetary hangover of the financial crisis.

Voices from beyond Wall Street who foresaw the debacle now range from mildly to wildly pessimistic. Nobody captures the confusion better than the satirical economic country and western singer Merle Hazard (geddit?) crooning about whether we face hyperinflation or deflation: “Will we become Zimbabwe or will we be Japan?”

Unprecedented growth in money supply will unleash higher inflation warns Bob Wiedemer, co-author of the recently published Aftershock, and of the prescient 2006 book America’s Bubble Economy......
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9650124-d...nclick_check=1


All righty contestants...ding~ding.

Neither option sounds like much fun.
Old 12-29-2009, 03:56 AM
  #11  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Eurosclerosis Is U.S. Diagnosis Not Japan Stagnation

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=axaPYnuYlqbs


I wonder how long Uncle Ben can stay at zero?
Old 06-18-2010, 09:19 PM
  #12  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Elliot Wave predicts triple-digit Dow in 2016

Commentary: If you think things are bad now...

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- An investment letter that called the Crash of 2008 said that this would be a bad year -- and it now says it will get worse.

A whole generation of investors think that Robert Prechter and his Elliott Wave Theory letters, Elliott Wave Financial Forecasts and Elliott Wave Theorist, are permabears. And they've certainly seemed that way for the last decade -- although it should be noted that the stock market is now roughly back where it started. ( See April 26, 2002 column. )

But Prechter was very bullish after the 1974 low and, briefly, after being one of the very few services to make money in 2008. Then he announced that "2010 is the year when the bear market in stocks returns in full force." ( See Jan. 22 column. )

Elliott Wave Financial Forecasts (EWFF) makes recommendations specific enough to be tracked by the Hulbert Financial Digest. (The Elliott Wave Theorist is too, well, theoretical.)

Over the year to date, EWFF is up just 0.4% by Hulbert Financial Digest count through May vs. negative 0.3% for the dividend-reinvested Wilshire 5000 Total Stock Market Index.

Over the past 12 months, its bearishness did cause it to gain just 4.75% compared to 22.89% for the total return Wilshire 5000. But over the past three years, the letter's bearishness paid off handsomely. It's up an annualized 5.25% against negative 8.12% annualized for the total return Wilshire 5000.

And even over the past 10 years, so badly damaged have stocks been that the letter was up an annualized 1.05%, outperforming a mere 0.22% annualized gain for the Wilshire 5000.

The EWFF issue published in early May said flatly: "The topping process is over for the countertrend rally that started in the first quarter of 2009. The next leg lower that commenced in April should now deliver a decline that will ultimately be bigger than the 2007-2009 sell-off. ... Gold poked to a new high, but in doing so, likely completed a pattern in mid-May that will lead to a multi-month selloff. ... The U.S. dollar index (DXY 85.56, -0.12, -0.15%) is fulfilling EWFF's forecast for a strong advance."

All of which fits right into Prechter's repeated predictions of a massive coming deflation.....
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ell...dow-2010-06-17


Japonaise???
Old 06-19-2010, 11:41 AM
  #13  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
I have yet to see Elliot Wave Theory do much in the way of reliably predicting the future because there are always two or more ways to interpret the charts. One interpretation will always be right. If you pick the correct interpretation you'll be good but screwed if you pick the wrong interpretation. The big question is which interpretation to pick?

I find the Bullish-Percents as a vastly superior way of knowing what to do in the stock market. It's a rare occasion that those are wrong but it can happen with them as well. For example, I'm not yet heeding the recent change to the NYSE BP that changed to become bullish on 6/15/10 when the dow was 10,404. I'll wait for the Nasdaq BP to confirm this bullish trend before diving back into the market with longs.

The previous BP reversal was 5/5/10 when the Dow was 10,866 and proved very helpful for shorting since the Dow dropped 1000 points after the reversal. BP reversals are very factual and don't rely on any interpretation if you stick with the standard charts.
Old 06-22-2010, 05:34 AM
  #14  
99 TL, 06 E350
Thread Starter
 
Black Tire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Age: 44
Posts: 5,030
Received 164 Likes on 110 Posts
Keiser Report: Gold grows on Armageddon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAUCpQJZQbw
Old 07-20-2010, 05:59 PM
  #15  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Inflation Or Deflation?

The jury is out: I have been in the deflation camp personally for the last 2 years, but I hear the arguments for Zimbabwean hyperinflation, or the case of the oscillation in no man's land as governments and central banks stop us on our way to the deflationary Kondratieff winter at each market collapse with a new round of monetization. Maybe this last cynic remake of the Japanese lost decades is the most obvious way to bet on the demagogy of our modern "capitalist" system where government are helpless against deflation and will therefore sacrifice our future and the planet if they have to in order to save whatever face they have left.

Either way, which ever case you are leaning towards, it is important to find indicators that will tell you what the market is leaning towards, as ultimately it is the only way t make money if you don't have the capital or luxury to hold out your positions through monkey reversals like we saw today.

I will start with the inflationary case. If today's move has legs and we are going to get an established weakening of the USD trend along with higher commodities, equities, and raging emerging markets, then the two following patterns will be triggered: Inverted H&S in Copper (neckline currently around 308) and inverted H&S in Bovespa (neckline currently around 65,500 which also corresponds to the 100-dma and 200-dma which just posted a bearish cross). Given my bias I will be looking at shorting the Bovespa around that are because of the moving average pattern and the strong resistance. However if both patterns are validated then clearly the market could have serious legs as there will be shorts to squeeze and fake break outs is a privilege reserved to shorts......
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/inf...ops+to+zero%29
Old 08-03-2010, 06:26 PM
  #16  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Treasuries Lack Safety, Liquidity for China, Yu Yongding Says

Originally Posted by LaCostaRacer
^ yes, but all it takes is for the Chinese and Japanese to skip a couple of T-Bill/Bond auctions and things will change dramatically.


U.S. Treasuries fail to provide safety or liquidity when it comes to managing China’s $2.45 trillion foreign-exchange reserves, said Yu Yongding, a former central bank adviser.

“I do not think U.S. Treasuries are safe in the medium-and long-run,” Yu, a member of the state-backed Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, wrote yesterday in an e-mailed response to questions. China is unable to sell the securities in a “big way” and a “scary trajectory” of budget deficits and a growing supply of U.S. dollars put their value at risk, he said.

The State Administration of Foreign Exchange, which manages the nation’s reserves, said last month that U.S. government debt has the benefits of “relatively good” safety, liquidity, low trading costs and market capacity. China’s holdings of Treasuries, the largest outside of the U.S., totaled $867.7 billion at the end of May, down from $900.2 billion in April and a record $939.9 billion in July 2009.

To help cool demand for the securities, China needs to curb the growth of its foreign reserves by intervening less in the currency market, Yu said. The People’s Bank of China said June 19 it would let the yuan float with reference to a basket of currencies, ending a two-year-old dollar peg.

The yuan has since appreciated 0.8 percent to 6.773 per dollar and analysts surveyed by Bloomberg predict the currency will end the year at 6.67, based on the median estimate. China limits appreciation by buying dollars, fueling its demand for Treasuries......
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ding-says.html
Old 08-21-2010, 08:12 AM
  #17  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
The Deflation Bogeyman

Based on the comments and emails I'm receiving lately, it appears more and more people are hopping on the deflation bandwagon. These correspondences have exposed to me an obvious misunderstanding of basic facts. While I suppose I am an "inflationist", I'm the first to admit that deflationists have some valid arguments to support their claims. But at the end of the day, their arguments are flawed; I just don't see deflation as a realistic threat moving forward.

There is a constant tug of war between deflation and inflation that hinges on factors such as money supply, credit, interest rates, and inflation expectations. While these variables push inflation in either direction, there is undoubtedly one variable that swings the odds decisively in either direction, and that is the dollar. There can be no sustainable deflationary trend with a falling dollar any more than there can be an inflationary trend with a rising dollar.

So let's get one thing out of the way. Deflationists are saying that the dollar will rise in value, and based on some of the doomsday asset collapse projections I'm hearing, quite dramatically. Now if this isn't already ridiculous to you, I'll examine some of the factors that will make a sustainable rise in the dollar unlikely. To do this, we must explore the last great deflationary period in the U.S, the Great Depression.

Most people think of the Great Depression as one continuous deflationary collapse- but it wasn't. Broadly speaking, we can break down the Great Depression into 3 stages: 1929-1932, 1933-1937, and 1938-1941. The key period is 1933-1937, for this is when we saw the initial inflationary effects of going off the gold standard.

Below I will present some things to take away from the Great Depression. These factors are critical to understanding why a deflationary collapse is unlikely to occur based on present-day conditions......
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/deflation-bogeyman
Old 08-21-2010, 02:21 PM
  #18  
Карты убийцы
 
Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cochabamba, Bolivia
Age: 54
Posts: 8,264
Received 125 Likes on 100 Posts
Old 08-24-2010, 05:44 AM
  #19  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
How Hyperinflation Will Happen

Right now, we are in the middle of deflation. The Global Depression we are experiencing has squeezed both aggregate demand levels and aggregate asset prices as never before. Since the credit crunch of September 2008, the U.S. and world economies have been slowly circling the deflationary drain.

To counter this, the U.S. government has been running massive deficits, as it seeks to prop up aggregate demand levels by way of fiscal “stimulus” spending—the classic Keynesian move, the same old prescription since donkey’s ears.

But the stimulus, apart from being slow and inefficient, has simply not been enough to offset the fall in consumer spending.

For its part, the Federal Reserve has been busy propping up all assets—including Treasuries—by way of “quantitative easing”.

The Fed is terrified of the U.S. economy falling into a deflationary death-spiral: Lack of liquidity, leading to lower prices, leading to unemployment, leading to lower consumption, leading to still lower prices, the entire economy grinding down to a halt. So the Fed has bought up assets of all kinds, in order to inject liquidity into the system, and bouy asset price levels so as to prevent this deflationary deep-freeze—and will continue to do so. After all, when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

But this Fed policy—call it “money-printing”, call it “liquidity injections”, call it “asset price stabilization”—has been overwhelmed by the credit contraction. Just as the Federal government has been unable to fill in the fall in aggregate demand by way of stimulus, the Fed has expanded its balance sheet from some $900 billion in the Fall of ’08, to about $2.3 trillion today—but that additional $1.4 trillion has been no match for the loss of credit. At best, the Fed has been able to alleviate the worst effects of the deflation—it certainly has not turned the deflationary environment into anything resembling inflation.

Yields are low, unemployment up, CPI numbers are down (and under some metrics, negative)—in short, everything screams “deflation”.

Therefore, the notion of talking about hyperinflation now, in this current macro-economic environment, would seem . . . well . . . crazy. Right?

Wrong: I would argue that the next step down in this world-historical Global Depression which we are experiencing will be hyperinflation......
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gue...ops+to+zero%29
Old 08-28-2010, 05:02 AM
  #20  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Hyperinflation, Part II: What It Will Look Like

I usually don’t do follow-up pieces to any of my posts. But my recent longish piece, describing how hyperinflation might happen in the United States, clearly struck a nerve.

It was a long, boring, snowy piece of macro-economic policy speculation, discussing Treasury yields, Federal Reserve Board monetary reaction, and the difference between inflation and hyperinflation—but considering the traffic it generated, I might as well been discussing relative breast size in the porn industry. With pictures.

Essentially, I argued that Treasury bonds are the New and Improved Toxic Assets. I argued that, if there was a run on Treasuries, the Federal Reserve—in its anti-deflationary zeal, and its efforts to prop up bond market prices—would over-react, and set off a run on commodities. This, I argued, would trigger hyperinflation.

The disproportionate attention my post garnered is indicative of people’s current fears. As I’ve said before, people aren’t blind or stupid, even if they often act that way. People are worried—they’re worried about the current state of affairs: Massive quantitative easing, toxic assets replaced by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government in the shape of Treasuries, fiscal debt which cannot possibly be repaid, a second leg down in the Global Depression that seems endless and only getting worse—people are scared. Many readers gave me quite a bit of useful feedback, critiques, suggestions and comments on the piece—clearly, what I was discussing touched on a deeply felt concern.

However, there were two issues that many readers had a hard time wrapping their minds around, with regards to a hyperinflationary event:

The first was, Where does all the money come from, for hyperinflation to happen? The question wasn’t put as baldly as that—it was wrapped up in sophisticated discussions about M1, M2 and M3 money supply, as well as clever talk about the velocity of money—the acceleration of money—the anti-lock brakes on money. There were even equations thrown around, for good measure.

But stripped of all the high-falutin’ language, the question was, “Where’s all the dough gonna come from?” After all, as we know from our history books, hyperinflation involves people hoisting bundles and bundles of high-denomination bills which aren’t worth a damn, and tossing them into the chimney—’cause the bundles of cash are cheaper than firewood. If the dollar were to crash, where would all these bundles of $100 bills come from?

The second question was, Why will commodities rise, while equities, real estate and other assets fall? In other words, if there is an old fashioned run on a currency—in this case, the dollar, the world’s reserve currency—why would people get out of the dollar into commodities only, rather than into equities and real estate and other assets?

In this post, I’m going to address both of these issues.....
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gue...t-it-will-look
Old 09-15-2010, 06:24 PM
  #21  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Pimco Makes $8.1 Billion Bet Against `Lost Decade' of Deflation

Bill Gross’s Pacific Investment Management Co. made an $8.1 billion wager that the U.S. won’t suffer a decade of deflation like the one that crippled Japan starting in the 1990s.

That’s the notional value of long-term derivative contracts tied to the U.S. consumer price index that Pimco’s mutual funds entered into during the first half of this year, according to a regulatory filing. The funds received $70.5 million in up-front premiums under these contracts, known as inflation floors, in return for agreeing to pay investors should prices decline in the 10 years ending in 2020.

“We think the possibility that the U.S. goes 10 years with stagnant or falling prices is remote,” Mihir Worah, the head of Pimco’s real return portfolio management team, said in an e- mailed response to questions. “The options were priced at rich levels to the underlying” risk, added Worah, whose funds invest in Treasury inflation protected securities.

The cost of protecting against deflation has doubled since January as signs of an economic slowdown in the U.S. prompted investors including Canadian insurer Fairfax Financial Holdings Ltd. to buy the derivatives. James Bullard, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, said the U.S. could suffer the same type of economic malaise as Japan. Pimco Chief Executive Officer Mohamed El-Erian said last month the chance of deflation in the U.S. is around 25 percent.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...deflation.html
Old 09-21-2010, 10:02 PM
  #22  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
Wow, it has been a year since my last post on this thread. Markets have gone up, down, and up again.

After today's Bernanke speech I think the inflation/deflation debate will be old by next year- everyone will know there is inflation by then. Bernanke is essentially saying that the FED is going to create inflation. Smart money like PIMCO is now betting on inflation and many people buying gold are also. The big question is what are you guys going to do now that the cat is out of the bag with the Fed's intention?

Look what has happened to Gold in the last year by checking out a GLD chart: http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=GLD...d=p27931844118

Think gold is in a bubble? Not in a long shot if you value gold based on the Dow it is very cheap even now going up $10 for the day. Dow of 10,761 / 1 oz of Gold (1288.11) = 8.35 -the number should be closer to 5 based on historical data.

Perhaps next year we'll see $2000 gold or a 8,000 DOW- not sure which but I don't think the dow/gold ratio will be higher than it is today.
Old 09-21-2010, 10:09 PM
  #23  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
Oops forgot the link to the speech: http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsev.../20100921a.htm

The key text is the second paragraph:
"Measures of underlying inflation are currently at levels somewhat below those the Committee judges most consistent, over the longer run, with its mandate to promote maximum employment and price stability. With substantial resource slack continuing to restrain cost pressures and longer-term inflation expectations stable, inflation is likely to remain subdued for some time before rising to levels the Committee considers consistent with its mandate."
Old 09-22-2010, 06:49 PM
  #24  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Sinai Says Fed's Sept. 21 Statement Means `Gotta Buy Gold'

Originally Posted by LaCostaRacer
After today's Bernanke speech I think the inflation/deflation debate will be old by next year- everyone will know there is inflation by then. Bernanke is essentially saying that the FED is going to create inflation. Smart money like PIMCO is now betting on inflation and many people buying gold are also. The big question is what are you guys going to do now that the cat is out of the bag with the Fed's intention?
No question that deflation is a Central Bankers kryptonite (think I said this in another thread) and may debauch the currency if needed to prevent it. I think the main question is how big many more dollars will Uncle Ben print and how will he eventually unwind the FED balance sheet without distorting the markets on the other side. I'm still reluctant to add any more GLD here though, the trend trade is the oldest trade in the book, until it isn't.


The Federal Reserve’s statement yesterday that inflation is below levels consistent with the central bank’s mandate for price stability means it’s time to buy gold, said Allen Sinai, chief global economist at Decision Economics Inc. in New York.

“That’s code for we don’t want to go the way of Japan so we’re going to print money,” Sinai said in a radio interview today on “Bloomberg Surveillance” with Tom Keene. “You gotta buy gold when those two central banks are doing what they’re doing.”

Gold for December delivery was 1.6 percent higher at $1,294.2 an ounce at 8:11 a.m. on the Comex in New York, after touching an all-time high $1,296.50. Bullion for immediate- delivery rose 0.4 percent to $1,292.60 an ounce in London, after earlier today rising to a record $1,295.

The Fed’s Open Market Committee said yesterday it was “prepared to provide additional accommodation if needed” to support the recovery and boost inflation. Gold, which often moves counter to the dollar, has advanced 17 percent this year and is heading for its tenth consecutive annual gain.

Sinai said he forecasts a $1,500 price for gold. “Inflation adjusted it’s still cheap as odd as it sounds,” he said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...inai-says.html
Old 09-22-2010, 11:36 PM
  #25  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
^Although the FED may fear deflation, the FED should really fear its own poor decision making more- Hoenig is the only person in the FOMC that has a clue. The FED has been wrong much more than they have been right in recent memory. I remember even Greenspan thinking that housing and sub-prime mortgages was not a big issue- we all know how wrong those thoughts were in retrospect. Now Bernanke is telling us how he fears deflation and that steps are needed which is to create more inflation- yikes there's no surprise gold was up big today. I imagine will have similar criticism when it becomes obvious that additional stimulus was not the answer and wound up causing massive inflation.

Regarding gold though ... Just where would you park $10K these days?

1. bonds are a much bigger bubble than gold is- how much lower are interests really going to go? Why would anyone sane want to lock in a 3% return for 30 years? I remember as a kid I could get 5.5% from a regular savings account- those days will be back and much sooner than 30 years. Long bonds will crater when interests rates begin rising. I'm actively shorting bonds now so that's one place to park some money.

2. stocks appear cheap but many are actually expensive compared to gold. Look at some of the valuation ratios of high flyers like APPL(287.65)- yikes a 4.54 price/sales ratio is a large premium to pay for any stock, including the beloved Apple. Adobe took a big hit today with a drop in earnings expectations and took a 19% hit. ADBE had a price/sales similar to Apple. What makes Apple stockholders think a haircut in price won't happen to them if the IPhone sales lag the Droid and new competition from Ipad like devices?

3. real estate is down now and could go down another 20% easy- especially if mortgage rates creep up. You generally need more than 10K for a reasonable property anyway and then have property taxes to pay in many states and it's not very liquid. That doesn't sound like a great place to park 10K.

4. money markets and CDs are safe but you only get a 1% return which is negative when you factor in the inflation we already have.

5. Commodities are decent places to invest- I have done well with SGG and USO but those trades can fluctuate a lot. SGG is looking much more peaky than gold at the moment, since it has almost doubled since May.

Based on these assessments, I have no issues parking money in Gold and Silver especially despite how old school that trade might appear. There's nothing wrong with making 11% in 6 weeks like I have with early August Silver positions- I'll do that any time and continue until something better comes up.
Old 09-23-2010, 06:41 PM
  #26  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Investors Are Deaf to the Screams of Gold, Cotton

.....The Inflationary Consequences of John Maynard Keynes

Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon, according to Milton Friedman, who has been eclipsed in recent years by his chief competitor, John Maynard Keynes. Every bond investor suspects that chucking billions of dollars into the global economy builds a bed of kindling; nobody wants to shout “fire!” in a crowded trade.

The Answer to Too Much Debt Is Not More Debt

Lending to governments is not risk-free, whether that government is Argentina, Iceland, Ireland or the U.S. These days, when you buy government debt, you are taking on the credit risk of the global financial system because that is what the too-big-to-fail doctrine has saddled the world’s taxpayers with.

This week’s successful debt auctions by Ireland, Greece and Spain sure beat the alternative of failed sales with nobody turning up. With central banks acting as buyers of first and last resort, however, it is impossible to pretend that the capital markets are functioning properly -- another dirty little secret kept suppressed deep in the subconscious.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...k-gilbert.html
Old 10-06-2010, 10:45 PM
  #27  
werd
 
amisconception's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,078
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Fibo, you ready for QE 2.0? How large do you think it'll be? I heard on Bloomberg today that it'll be at least $500 bil. Any idea where it'll go? Are Japan's recent QE moves any indication?
Old 10-07-2010, 11:09 AM
  #28  
The sizzle in the Steak
 
Moog-Type-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 71,436
Received 1,877 Likes on 1,297 Posts
^^ Does it really matter at this point how big QE 2.0 is?

I mean seriously now.....the debt has no limits.
Old 10-07-2010, 06:21 PM
  #29  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Originally Posted by amisconception
Fibo, you ready for QE 2.0? How large do you think it'll be? I heard on Bloomberg today that it'll be at least $500 bil. Any idea where it'll go?
$500 Billion sounds like chump change, the market is thinking something with a T. I'm afraid Uncle Ben is running out of bullets and the market has already traded ahead in anticipation - wouldn't be shocked if bond yields actually move in the opposite direction AFTER the announcement.


Are Japan's recent QE moves any indication?
I don't follow Japan too closely, they live in a parallel universe where the normal laws of physics don't apply.
Old 10-25-2010, 06:11 PM
  #30  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Inflation Bonds Are Sold With Negative Yield for First Time

Inflation-protected securities sold at negative yields for the first time ever on Monday as traders anticipate that the Federal Reserve will start a new round of asset purchases.

Analysts said that asset purchases by the Fed would lead to a higher inflation rate and a positive return on the bonds.

The $10 billion auction of the five-year bonds sold at a negative yield of 0.550 percent, according to the Treasury Department. The results of the auction of the securities, known as TIPS, came as indexes on Wall Street edged higher, buoyed by recent strong corporate earnings and a rise in housing sales. The previous lowest yield for the TIPS was in the auction on April 26, when the yield was 0.550 percent.

“It is saying that there is a true demand for inflation securities, because people perceive the quantitative easing program is enabling a higher inflation rate in the future,” said Tom di Galoma, head of fixed-income rates trading at Guggenheim Partners.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/bu...26markets.html


Deflation Disappears With Bond Market Showing Growth

The bond market is showing Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke will succeed in sparking inflation after the smallest gain in core consumer prices in half a century increased concerns that the economy will deflate.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...ouble-dip.html
Old 09-06-2011, 07:42 PM
  #31  
I feel the need...
 
Fibonacci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Motown
Posts: 14,957
Received 515 Likes on 363 Posts
Uncaged Inflation, a Beast Easy to Free, Hard to Control: View

Originally Posted by LaCostaRacer
I'm afraid Peter will be proven right. I hope the readers of this forum start preparing for this because a major crisis could be here in less than two years.
Yo Racer, your two years is almost up.

Inflation? No, thank you.

We just endured and survived a major political crisis over the possibility that the U.S. government might default on its debts. Most people -- other than a few high-stakes poker players on the right wing of the Republican Party -- agreed that this would be a terrible thing. But now, a growing number of voices, mainly on the left wing of the Democratic Party but also in the Federal Reserve, are calling for what is in effect default in slow motion. It goes by the name of inflation.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...trol-view.html
Old 09-06-2011, 08:22 PM
  #32  
Drifting
 
LaCostaRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,499
Received 220 Likes on 180 Posts
^ yes my 2 year prediction is coming due. But you really need to determine HOW you want to measure inflation I guess. I could argue that the price of gold mimics inflation. Without spending too much time on this, I looked at my records and noted buying a .1oz Chinese Panda gold coin in August 2009 for $118.38. That same coin is now running $195.01 or 65% higher for the same coin. The profits are even more impressive if you look at how Silver has moved in the last 2 years. Perhaps this is a bubble like others have argued but perhaps it's not for different reasons.

Take a look at my 9/16 response:

^ yes, but all it takes is for the Chinese and Japanese to skip a couple of T-Bill/Bond auctions and things will change dramatically. Those two countries are the biggest purchasers of U.S. debt and things will change if they stop buying notes from us. All the smaller country purchases will follow suit in quick order and then see what happens to the almighty dollar- it will make a Peso look good.

I actually hope the prediction doesn't come true, but you can not ignore what's happening with gold and silver. My last Silver dollar order bought Eagles for $17.93 on 9/4- these are now $19.42 on 9/16. That's an 8.3% gain and I haven't even received the order yet. To be fair, the SP500 is up about 5% during the time frame. Commodities prices are accellerating because of the fear of inflation.

There was a book called 'Bankruptcy 1995' that predicted bad stuff happening in 1995- obviously that was a little early. Nothing has fundamentally changed since that book was written- except the interest rates got amazingly low and temporarily stopped things.

We still have ever-growing deficits and little if anything has been done to resolve the deficits. The U.S. talks a good talk about cutting spending but nothing actually happens. You think two years is too early, but I could counter that this event is actually about 9 years too late based on models set forth in that book. I wish I still had that book but my Wife through it out after 2000 thinking it was outdated.
My timing is something I don't depend on which is one big reason I don't trade options- it's hard enough to be consistently correct on market direction and adding a time boundary is very hard.

Like I wrote earlier, I really hope I'm wrong on the 'payload' of problems we might encounter if things go according to the BK 1995 book. I don't think anyone wants to experience those projections. My commodity hedges have made lots of money in the mean time so it's not like I can't profit and be wrong on timing.
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
peti1212
ILX
22
01-05-2022 05:14 PM
Yumcha
Automotive News
4
08-15-2019 12:58 PM
95oRANGEcRUSH
Car Talk
35
09-25-2015 12:50 PM
cammy5
3G RLX (2013+)
7
09-19-2015 10:43 AM
jterp7
3G MDX (2014-2020)
0
09-14-2015 09:09 AM



Quick Reply: Deflation vs. Inflation Argument on FSN



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:58 AM.