Can a HD-DVD-Blu-Ray war be avoided?
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Can a HD-DVD-Blu-Ray war be avoided?
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The imminent format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray disc is recognized universally as potentially destructive. Each side appreciates the disadvantages of a war, confusing and turning off consumers, risking a lukewarm reception similar to the one that greeted the two super-audio DVD formats. But neither side seems able to back down. Like the inexorable escalation of hostilities that became World War I, starting as an assassination and developing into a conflict of attrition that killed millions, the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps seem poised for unavoidable and destructive combat in the marketplace.
But there have been recent changes in the corporate management of Sony. And the company that is famous for its not-invented-here approach to commerce and product development has held out an olive branch. Last Wednesday, Sony publicly announced that it was open to discussions to create a single standard for high definition discs. Yukinori Kawauchi, the general manager responsible for Blu-ray development in Sony's Video Group was quoted as saying, "From the point of view to provide the best service to the consumer one format is better than two. We're open to discussions."
This is highly tentative. There are no technical proposals. Formal discussions have not been reported. But vast fortunes are at stake and the corporate players are aware of the risks. There was a similar behind the scenes conflict prior to DVD's cautious seven-city rollout in 1997; only a late technological compromise prevented what could have been a bloody battle at the cash register. We got lucky. With one format and a consistent face, the DVD industry was born.
But as the high definition disc forces posture and negotiate, other technological developments are preparing to take advantage of the potential conflict. In my comparison piece examining the two formats, I asked a rhetorical question about how long it might take for an enterprising company to market a universal player compatible with both formats. Now comes word that Marshall Media Inc. has developed a new optical head product. It is reported to be able to read CDs, DVDs, HD-DVDs, and Blu-ray Discs, within a single pickup intended for a universal player.
Instead of mounting a multiplicity of lasers in a complex and expensive construct, Marshall Media is reported to be using a tuned laser capable of emitting multiple wavelengths. This simplification should make the device sufficiently inexpensive to make a universal player affordable.
If a format war can't be avoided, will the licensing bodies that oversee HD-DVD and Blu-ray allow any company to market a universal player? The plot thickens. As I discover more, I'll be sure to pass it along to you.
But there have been recent changes in the corporate management of Sony. And the company that is famous for its not-invented-here approach to commerce and product development has held out an olive branch. Last Wednesday, Sony publicly announced that it was open to discussions to create a single standard for high definition discs. Yukinori Kawauchi, the general manager responsible for Blu-ray development in Sony's Video Group was quoted as saying, "From the point of view to provide the best service to the consumer one format is better than two. We're open to discussions."
This is highly tentative. There are no technical proposals. Formal discussions have not been reported. But vast fortunes are at stake and the corporate players are aware of the risks. There was a similar behind the scenes conflict prior to DVD's cautious seven-city rollout in 1997; only a late technological compromise prevented what could have been a bloody battle at the cash register. We got lucky. With one format and a consistent face, the DVD industry was born.
But as the high definition disc forces posture and negotiate, other technological developments are preparing to take advantage of the potential conflict. In my comparison piece examining the two formats, I asked a rhetorical question about how long it might take for an enterprising company to market a universal player compatible with both formats. Now comes word that Marshall Media Inc. has developed a new optical head product. It is reported to be able to read CDs, DVDs, HD-DVDs, and Blu-ray Discs, within a single pickup intended for a universal player.
Instead of mounting a multiplicity of lasers in a complex and expensive construct, Marshall Media is reported to be using a tuned laser capable of emitting multiple wavelengths. This simplification should make the device sufficiently inexpensive to make a universal player affordable.
If a format war can't be avoided, will the licensing bodies that oversee HD-DVD and Blu-ray allow any company to market a universal player? The plot thickens. As I discover more, I'll be sure to pass it along to you.
#2
The sizzle in the Steak
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.....if this does not work out, the Pron industry will settle the matter.
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A war will not be avoided.
It would be nice but aint gonna happen.
Sony saying they are open to discussing a universal format means holding talks to tell everyone to follow them or there is no deal.
It would be nice but aint gonna happen.
Sony saying they are open to discussing a universal format means holding talks to tell everyone to follow them or there is no deal.
#4
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Sony is just waking up. Too bad it's way too late deciding this...
blu-ray already exists in Japan. HD-DVD is already being worked on.
Although in theory doesn't it seem easy to just simply encode the video using h.264 and stick it on a blu-ray disc...
(and obviously put a h.264 decoder in a blu-ray reader)
the entire thing pisses me off...
blu-ray already exists in Japan. HD-DVD is already being worked on.
Although in theory doesn't it seem easy to just simply encode the video using h.264 and stick it on a blu-ray disc...
(and obviously put a h.264 decoder in a blu-ray reader)
the entire thing pisses me off...
#6
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Originally Posted by Xenogen
Just wait till they come out with Holographic DVD
Holographic storage has been in existance since early 90's. I've been waiting a LONG freaking time already....
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holograms = shitty color.
Trending Topics
#8
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Well, I spoke too soon yesterday...
300GB holographic disc. To be released in 2006!! FINALLY A BACKUP DEVICE!
If it happens, I won't hold my breath. But I am excited....
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1785630,00.asp
300GB holographic disc. To be released in 2006!! FINALLY A BACKUP DEVICE!
If it happens, I won't hold my breath. But I am excited....
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1785630,00.asp
#9
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
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#12
'Big Daddy Diggler'
I will give it a couple of years like i did with dvd. When dvd's first came out, players were like 400+ and movies were like 30 bucs a pop. Fuck that, i will be on the fence waiting to see what comes of this all.
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New info:
LINKZ0R
LINKZ0R
Two proposals seek to avert next-gen DVD format war
Rick Merritt
EE Times
(04/19/2005 6:00 AM EDT)
LAS VEGAS — The competing Blu-Ray and HD-DVD camps are quietly considering two proposals that could avert a format war and create a single next-generation DVD standard. A source close to the effort said a final decision may not be announced for as long as two months.
Both proposals currently on the table attempt to define an entirely new, hybrid format made up from elements of the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD systems. In addition, both proposals try to include additional capabilities that would give proponents of the existing camps reasons to move to the new format.
"The most important thing to understand here is no one really wants a format war," said the source who asked not to be named.
Executives on both sides realize that DVD video was hugely successful, in part, because it was a unified standard. In contrast, DVD audio has been one of the worst failures in the technology business because two competing standards came to market, the source added.
Indeed, a single DVD standard would be a huge win for consumers. If both standards come to market consumers would likely be faced with buying both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players if they wanted to play all the prerecorded movies that would become available.
No details about the two hybrid proposals were immediately available.
According to sources close to the DVD Forum and the Blu-ray Disc Association, the groups are on the verge of agreeing on a higher-level protocol and interactive layers as well as the physical formats of the incompatible standards.
Both unification proposals also try to address the fact that some of the big studios have conflicting requirements. Warner Brothers is said to want the lowest cost media, while The Walt Disney Co. is said to prefer the standard with the highest capacity.
Rick Merritt
EE Times
(04/19/2005 6:00 AM EDT)
LAS VEGAS — The competing Blu-Ray and HD-DVD camps are quietly considering two proposals that could avert a format war and create a single next-generation DVD standard. A source close to the effort said a final decision may not be announced for as long as two months.
Both proposals currently on the table attempt to define an entirely new, hybrid format made up from elements of the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD systems. In addition, both proposals try to include additional capabilities that would give proponents of the existing camps reasons to move to the new format.
"The most important thing to understand here is no one really wants a format war," said the source who asked not to be named.
Executives on both sides realize that DVD video was hugely successful, in part, because it was a unified standard. In contrast, DVD audio has been one of the worst failures in the technology business because two competing standards came to market, the source added.
Indeed, a single DVD standard would be a huge win for consumers. If both standards come to market consumers would likely be faced with buying both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players if they wanted to play all the prerecorded movies that would become available.
No details about the two hybrid proposals were immediately available.
According to sources close to the DVD Forum and the Blu-ray Disc Association, the groups are on the verge of agreeing on a higher-level protocol and interactive layers as well as the physical formats of the incompatible standards.
Both unification proposals also try to address the fact that some of the big studios have conflicting requirements. Warner Brothers is said to want the lowest cost media, while The Walt Disney Co. is said to prefer the standard with the highest capacity.
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Originally Posted by bigman
I will give it a couple of years like i did with dvd. When dvd's first came out, players were like 400+ and movies were like 30 bucs a pop. Fuck that, i will be on the fence waiting to see what comes of this all.
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#15
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Originally Posted by Lung Fu Mo Shi
Hope to me would be that they pull their heads out of their asses... use the high capacity disk (sony) with the better H264 codec (HD-DVD)...
seems so simple... I don't get it...
#16
Cost Drivers!!!!
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Thanks for posting that. It's been brought up in other HD-DVD threads. It's not really anything new, but it does give hope.
Hope to me would be that they pull their heads out of their asses... use the high capacity disk (sony) with the better H264 codec (HD-DVD)...
seems so simple... I don't get it...
Hope to me would be that they pull their heads out of their asses... use the high capacity disk (sony) with the better H264 codec (HD-DVD)...
seems so simple... I don't get it...
capital investment into new technology that is barely better than what is currently out is assnine in terms of multimedia content. hddvd is the way to go.
#17
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Originally Posted by Lung Fu Mo Shi
Me too. Because I don't know how to copy HD-DVDs or BRDs yet. DVDs get from the mailbox to a shiney new blank in less than 90 minutes. ![Ninja](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif)
![Ninja](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif)
LOL, I was thinking the same thing this morning when I read this thread. But then I thought I hope someone figures out a way to extract the HD data from either format. So I can make HD compilations on my Holographic disc
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#18
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Originally Posted by Zapata
capital investment into new technology that is barely better than what is currently out is assnine in terms of multimedia content. hddvd is the way to go.
I don't get what you mean by that....
Sony HD BLURAY
50GB total capacity (25Gb per side)
uses MPEG-2 video compression
HD-DVD
18GB total capacity , 9GB per side (the same DVD discs were using now)
uses H.264 video compression
Seems to me, the best thing would be to do this.
Siggy HD format
50GB sony bluray disc
H.264 video compression (and crank the bitrate up to max the disc out, or put multiple movies on one disc)
?
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
I don't get what you mean by that....
Sony HD BLURAY
50GB total capacity (25Gb per side)
uses MPEG-2 video compression
HD-DVD
18GB total capacity , 9GB per side (the same DVD discs were using now)
uses H.264 video compression
Seems to me, the best thing would be to do this.
Siggy HD format
50GB sony bluray disc
H.264 video compression (and crank the bitrate up to max the disc out, or put multiple movies on one disc)
?
Sony HD BLURAY
50GB total capacity (25Gb per side)
uses MPEG-2 video compression
HD-DVD
18GB total capacity , 9GB per side (the same DVD discs were using now)
uses H.264 video compression
Seems to me, the best thing would be to do this.
Siggy HD format
50GB sony bluray disc
H.264 video compression (and crank the bitrate up to max the disc out, or put multiple movies on one disc)
?
Personally, I'd think it'd be great. Plus, instead of just 133 minutes of regular bitrate movie, you could have say 3.5 hours of movie. Special Extended Director Platinum Edition with 6 different audio tracks and extras. One Disc.
#20
Moderator Alumnus
zapata, I thought about what you said...
I think your making assumptions that better compression in less space will have better video quality than lower compression in more space.
I wonder if there has been a bakeoff type event where they have compared scenes at the expected bitrates for the capacity of the disk(s) MPEG-2 vs. H.264...
You do know who owns H.264 compression right? and the license fee's one has to pay...
I think your making assumptions that better compression in less space will have better video quality than lower compression in more space.
I wonder if there has been a bakeoff type event where they have compared scenes at the expected bitrates for the capacity of the disk(s) MPEG-2 vs. H.264...
You do know who owns H.264 compression right? and the license fee's one has to pay...
#21
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by Lung Fu Mo Shi
I agree...but then Common Sense isn't.
Personally, I'd think it'd be great. Plus, instead of just 133 minutes of regular bitrate movie, you could have say 3.5 hours of movie. Special Extended Director Platinum Edition with 6 different audio tracks and extras. One Disc.
Personally, I'd think it'd be great. Plus, instead of just 133 minutes of regular bitrate movie, you could have say 3.5 hours of movie. Special Extended Director Platinum Edition with 6 different audio tracks and extras. One Disc.
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
zapata, I thought about what you said...
I think your making assumptions that better compression in less space will have better video quality than lower compression in more space.
I wonder if there has been a bakeoff type event where they have compared scenes at the expected bitrates for the capacity of the disk(s) MPEG-2 vs. H.264...
You do know who owns H.264 compression right? and the license fee's one has to pay...
I think your making assumptions that better compression in less space will have better video quality than lower compression in more space.
I wonder if there has been a bakeoff type event where they have compared scenes at the expected bitrates for the capacity of the disk(s) MPEG-2 vs. H.264...
You do know who owns H.264 compression right? and the license fee's one has to pay...
Personally, being a sat. subscriber, DVD copier, and DVD creator, I am very familiar with MPEG-2 compression artifacts. I pull out original single-layer movies and am really horrified that I thought it looked so good back in the day.
MPEG-4 helps. It still has compression artifacts, but at similar bitrates as DVDs, and smaller pixels, is MUCH cleaner. Even when things get really compressed MPEG-4 still looks better than MPEG-2.
#23
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by Lung Fu Mo Shi
That's why they need to use VC1 or whatever it's called.
Personally, being a sat. subscriber, DVD copier, and DVD creator, I am very familiar with MPEG-2 compression artifacts. I pull out original single-layer movies and am really horrified that I thought it looked so good back in the day.
MPEG-4 helps. It still has compression artifacts, but at similar bitrates as DVDs, and smaller pixels, is MUCH cleaner. Even when things get really compressed MPEG-4 still looks better than MPEG-2.
Personally, being a sat. subscriber, DVD copier, and DVD creator, I am very familiar with MPEG-2 compression artifacts. I pull out original single-layer movies and am really horrified that I thought it looked so good back in the day.
MPEG-4 helps. It still has compression artifacts, but at similar bitrates as DVDs, and smaller pixels, is MUCH cleaner. Even when things get really compressed MPEG-4 still looks better than MPEG-2.
Well agreed for DVD quality. But as you know we're going from 720x480 to 1920x1080.
Thats a lot more data to compress. I have seen microsofts (h.264) HD samples. For me they leave a lot to be desired on dark sections and high motion scenes. I have no clue what the bit rate is though, might have been done for on-line download friendlyness (i'll be sure to go back and look). I think they'll be squeezing the HD content in /w only 18GB to play with thats my
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I'd feel warm and fuzzy if they had 50Gb to play with
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#24
Moderator Alumnus
Well, I went and looked at them again most are 8-11Mb. The ones mastered in digital look fantastic. So I take back what I said... I think I only remembered the film xfer samples from IMAX. And they really aren't that specular for HD.
This one I found was 1920x1080 (most other videos were not) it's not high motion but it looks great.
http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ife_10mbps.exe
Lets see how the numbers break out.
18GB = 154618822656 bits
10.44Mb = (1920x1080 video /w 24bit 5.1 surround sound)
154618822656/10440000 (10.44 mbit as shown in mediaplayer)=14810 seconds
14810/60=246 minutes
246/60=4.1 hours
So basically they have 2 hours of video on each side of the HD-DVD. So for movies > 2 hours they'll be a short pause as you or the dvd player switches sides of the disc. Or they have to sacrifice video quality to make it fit
booo
hmm.... and what about older movies that have lots of noise in them. They'll need bitrates higher than 10.4Mbit to deal with the video noise.
I don't know that I'm sold on the HD-DVD...
This one I found was 1920x1080 (most other videos were not) it's not high motion but it looks great.
http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ife_10mbps.exe
Lets see how the numbers break out.
18GB = 154618822656 bits
10.44Mb = (1920x1080 video /w 24bit 5.1 surround sound)
154618822656/10440000 (10.44 mbit as shown in mediaplayer)=14810 seconds
14810/60=246 minutes
246/60=4.1 hours
So basically they have 2 hours of video on each side of the HD-DVD. So for movies > 2 hours they'll be a short pause as you or the dvd player switches sides of the disc. Or they have to sacrifice video quality to make it fit
![Frown](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif)
hmm.... and what about older movies that have lots of noise in them. They'll need bitrates higher than 10.4Mbit to deal with the video noise.
I don't know that I'm sold on the HD-DVD...
#25
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damn i need to get back into the swing off things...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...tShowcase.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...tShowcase.aspx
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#26
The sizzle in the Steak
The Format War is Over!!!!!
Can LG puts an end to the DVD format wars?
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/16/tech...0315/index.htm
The rivalry between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the two competing high-definition DVD formats, has been sizzling, leaving the industry faced with a recap of the VHS-Betamax debacle. Now LG has come out with a truce proposal: A device that will play both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs. The player is expected in stores this fall. LG isn't the only company straddling the fence: Hewlett-Packard (Research) has said it will support both formats.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/16/tech...0315/index.htm
#27
Suzuka Master
sweet, as long as we can watch both with one player, I don't really care (probably because I know very little about the topic). Maybe the continued competition will bring prices down on the discs.
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#28
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There is no end to a format war.
I still say the mass consuming public really has no clue about either format...let alone they are BOTH coming out.
If anything they know High Definitions DVDs are coming soon.
To me, this is still a giant FUBAR waiting to happen.
And with both parties constantly delaying releases...they are just competing with eachother as to who makes the most bonehead moves to royally fuck up dominating the market...right now Sony is in the lead if fucking up what could have a been a clear win.
Either way...I still don't see this as becoming a consumer medium....pro-sumer AV nerd medium ala Laserdisc, yes.
I still say the mass consuming public really has no clue about either format...let alone they are BOTH coming out.
If anything they know High Definitions DVDs are coming soon.
To me, this is still a giant FUBAR waiting to happen.
And with both parties constantly delaying releases...they are just competing with eachother as to who makes the most bonehead moves to royally fuck up dominating the market...right now Sony is in the lead if fucking up what could have a been a clear win.
Either way...I still don't see this as becoming a consumer medium....pro-sumer AV nerd medium ala Laserdisc, yes.
#29
Chapter Leader
(Northeast Florida)
(Northeast Florida)
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
There is no end to a format war.
I still say the mass consuming public really has no clue about either format...let alone they are BOTH coming out.
If anything they know High Definitions DVDs are coming soon.
To me, this is still a giant FUBAR waiting to happen.
And with both parties constantly delaying releases...they are just competing with eachother as to who makes the most bonehead moves to royally fuck up dominating the market...right now Sony is in the lead if fucking up what could have a been a clear win.
Either way...I still don't see this as becoming a consumer medium....pro-sumer AV nerd medium ala Laserdisc, yes.
I still say the mass consuming public really has no clue about either format...let alone they are BOTH coming out.
If anything they know High Definitions DVDs are coming soon.
To me, this is still a giant FUBAR waiting to happen.
And with both parties constantly delaying releases...they are just competing with eachother as to who makes the most bonehead moves to royally fuck up dominating the market...right now Sony is in the lead if fucking up what could have a been a clear win.
Either way...I still don't see this as becoming a consumer medium....pro-sumer AV nerd medium ala Laserdisc, yes.
Also, should I go with 6.1 or 7.1?
#30
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Originally Posted by gatrhumpy
OK, so when we sell our current house and move to Jacksonville, we're going to have a crapload of money to put down on our next house. I want to get a 45"-60" HDTV, flat-screen or flat-panel, along with some great-sounding speakers (towers speakers), an awesome receiver, and an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray DVD player. Which format should I get and why?
Also, should I go with 6.1 or 7.1?
Also, should I go with 6.1 or 7.1?
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