Fibonacci

Anybody have experience dealing with these guys?

Toll Brothers has a laundry list of options (much like BMW) which adds significantly to the final price. But is more customizable and offers better features.

Pulte includes a ton of standard features (like Acura) in their 'Estate' line which keep the options limited. Downside, not quite as customizeable.

Somewhat surprised that Pulte scores significantly higher on customer satisfaction, curious if anybody has any input...

bl^5

Don't know about Detroit, but in Texas Pulte is a NO NO!

doopstr

From what I understand, all large builders are a crap shoot. They all hire questionable help. I know someone who works for a large builder. Her job is to handle customer complaints. She has some really interesting pictures of shitty work.

I think if I were to build new I would be on site at least once a week and hire and independent inspector several times during the build process.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Both build down here in NC and both are popular. Pulte builds lower end homes (as far as price, not necessary quality, although the two usually run close together).

Pulte usually builds in the $200k range, although they are putting up a new community about 2 miles down the road with homes ranging from $300k to $500k. I personally have not seen their higher end product, but their lower range homes were pretty nice.

Toll Brothers only builds high-end stuff... at least down here in NC and up in NY where they had a community we looked at before we moved to NC. The stuff we looked at down here was a minumum of $400k, but you were usually around $450k before you were said and done. They did stuff like full brick, higher end kitchens, and so on, where as Pulte may give you brick or stone work on the front, but the rest was vinyl or hardyplank siding.

Don't go based off of those BS customer satisfaction surveys. All builders have their problems and pretty much all contract their labor force. That feedback that you see in trade magazines, etc. are usually paid for by the builders. Additionally, when one company says they're highest in customer satisfaction, it may be true.... but all that means is that they're better then the other builders at fixing their problems. Doesn't mean that they build a better home, just that they're the best at trying to fix it.... and if the other guys suck... and they suck just a little less, well then technically they're better, right?

soopa

If you're not building in a development, why go with a large builder at all? I'd go with a small custom builder and an independent architect.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Man I really need to move to NC.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Well now you'd be spending over $550k (possibly more) for those same houses as those were the prices when we were looking in the summer of 2004 before we found our builder.

But yeah... you do need to move

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

This is true...

However, I'm almost 99% positive those builders will not build on your land. I know Pulte won't... not completely sure about Toll Brothers. But, for the most part, those large builders will only build in a development b/c that's how they really make their money (they don't make much putting a house on your land)... so I'm assuming he's looking in communities.

PistonFan... maybe a little more info about that can help

soopa

good point.

Fibonacci

bean is right, the Toll Bro's or Pulte developments in MI do not allow for other builders, just different variations of their own floorplans. I currently live and work in Oakland County - I dunno about other states, but that is how they operate here.

Fibonacci

Good to know

BigPimp

Toll Brothers quality and materials have gone to shit the bigger they got. I live right next to their HQ and there are tons of developments in my area by TB. You go into a new house, you can just see where they cut costs. You have to upgrade everything to get a decent house.

Pulte on the other hand is a much better builder and property feels very solid and stronger. Higher quality materials, less expensive, more things standard. Pulte the whole way.

Orleans is a good builder as well, but Pulte is ranked very high.

BigPimp

This is not true. JD Power consistenly ranks Pulte higher than Toll Brothers. If JD was on the take, TB has deeper pockets.


I just feel that TB screws you the whole way and overprice their homes. I have not personally bought a home with either builder, but represented many clients dealing with both. Pulte is better to deal with and final product is better.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

I never said anything about JD Power... I said trade magazines. As far as trade magazines go, it is true.

Although I'll admit... I'd still be leary. I trust JD Power about as much as I trust Consumer Reports. Good for reference, but not to be taken as the final word....

Also keep in mind that Toll Brothers sells to a different client. They build higher end homes, so they cater to people that don't care much about the final price... they want a prestigious builder and a house with a wow factor. Pulte builds average sized and priced homes and very rarely comes up against Toll Brothers. Now, again, this is how it is down here. Not sure if that's the case in Detroit. Maybe Toll Brothers has a standard line there that they do not offer down here.

Also, one thing I've noticed... people with money who buy Toll Brothers don't care about their reputation for building, b/c they're lured in by their reputation as a name. It's dumb yes... but sometimes people with money can be....

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Toll Brothers have gone the way of BMW's model. Start very standard and make them pay for every upgrade. Many of the high end builders have gone that way.

Funny you should mention Orleans b/c down here they compete on the higher end (but not quite as high as Toll Brothers) and they are the exact same way. We priced out their house in our community and they nickle and dimed you for every single little thing. They were a complete ripoff. We ended up getting a refund on our binder and going with another builder. We got SOOOOO much more stuff and we still spent about $30k less easily. Orleans couldn't even begin to compete b/c they were such a rip. Yes they build a good home, but unless you don't care about money, I would never recommend them.

Fibonacci

I rarely pay full 'retail' for anything, and yes I care about reputation for quality. In the community I'm looking at Toll Bros and Pulte are literally almost across the street from each other.

At the price point we're looking at their are innumerable homes for sale that are less than five years old which we could probably pick off at a nice discount. Trying to figure out if we should build new and if so, which builder people have had better experiences with - from start to finish.

Fibonacci

We've thought about that, the problem is the developments we're looking at don't allow independent builders. Also, virtually everyone I know who's built a custom home has: a.) gone overbudget. b.) been a source of aggravation -- so I'm not going that route.

BigPimp

I don't think Toll Brothers is any more high end than Pulte or vice versa. They compete head to head here in my area. From my experience, Pulte is a better builder and better quality and cheaper than Toll.

BigPimp

Don't build yourself, it's very aggrevating and requires too much time. Go into a development, pick a lot, put a deposit down and get this show on the road.


Make sure you get a marketable home, like 4 2/1, 2 car garage. Try to be one of the cheaper homes in the development.

ric

Unfortunately, the difference between going to a developer/builder vs going "independent" is the difference between buying your clothing off the rack vs having it tailored. The tailored job will be a "perfect fit', but at a premium for the fact that it is a one-off. The only tradeoff is if you look for property that is "unbuildable" in an established neighborhood, and then work with an architect to evolve a plan that works - the economy of land acquisition may accommodate for the increased cost.

As for cost overruns, the standard developer establishes the ability to "overrun" your budget proactively with their list of 'options' and add-ons. In one-off design, the challenge will be to control your own impulse to add more and more as the project evolves; suddenly the deep window for plants turns into a small greenhouse, etc.....................

As for quality, there is no builder of mass construction that can top a private builder that devotes his attention to small construction. Mass builders build to deadline and pricepoint. Small one-off contractors build to repeat reputation. The difference is substantive. I have a friend who used to work as a "quality assurance" manager (after his small contracting firm went bust in a slump about 10 years ago), and his horror stories from some of the "finest" names in the industry in the mid-Atlantic makes my hair curl. Fortunately, we got the benefit of his talented work on the renovation of our last home before his small firm bellied up.

With a developer/contractor, you need to be your own q/a manager. Read the drawings (learn how, it is not that difficult) and read the specs. As questions, and pursue the issue of the add'ons in terms of value vs cost. It would be prudent to pay an independent inspector to review the costrution of the house at least once a week to confirm that the house is being built according to specs. And, if your developer is busy, write in a clause in the contract that covers your costs if he does not deliver on the promised beneficial occupancy date (hotel rooms, rent costs, furniture storage, etc. ). When you do the final walk-through (with your inspector) be sure you note everything that needs to be finished, and then put it in writing. Then - hold the contractor to it.

The one alternative is to find a small developer, one who builds 3-10 homes in an established neighborhood. Those folks tend to "bridge" between the large builders and doing it all yourself. I used to work on a moonlight basis for a small developer who did infill housing in Center City Philly, working with lots that might yield two - five row homes. The work we did was innovative, the houses were well-built, we customized the plans to fit specific purchasor's needs, and the houses have sustained dramatic resale value, in part because of their location, in part because of the quality of the contractor's work when stacked next to developer stuff. All of his stuff pre-sold after his first project or two, as the real estate brokers working this market "branded" his work as being top-notch, which it was, and he ended up with buyers standing in line for the next project. The materials we used were high-end, but more importantly, the craftsmanship and the materials used in places that most buyers don't see were good, solid and well-done. THe guy could afford the premium of his quality of construction because the premium of his reputation rapidly garnered him a fully valued price. Typically, his call backs were limited, and many houses sold without any "warrenty calls" at all.

As an architect, I can't afford my own work, frankly, and have abandon the idea of designing and building my own home. For me, the solution has always been to buy an older place in an established neighbordhood and then renovate - then, the one-off contractor makes sense, the additional costs become subsumed in the increased resale value of the house, and careful acquisition of housing in "flipping" neighborhoods can lead to a substantial accrual of property value.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Sounds like it's the same in Detroit. Down here, as mentioned, Pulte builds homes in the $200k to $300k as well as townhouses even lower then that (although they are starting a new community that starts at $300k about 3 miles from here, so they may be bringing their higher end product down). The only Toll Brothers communities we saw started at $400k. Pulte homes were siding, Toll Brothers, full brick... and so on. Totally different target market... so they didn't even compete. Must just be how each builder is positioning themselves in this area, and it's obvious it's different in other areas.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Big on both counts.


Example... friends of ours bought land and built their own home. They signed the contract for the house in Feb. 2004. We did not even start looking for homes until April 2004 (we wanted a development). We went to contract in August of 2004, and we moved in late March of 2005.

They moved down last week, and their house still isn't done... not supposed to be done until March 1st. So they went to contract 6 months before us, and we moved in 11 months before them... and their builder told them it would be one year from contract to move in. Granted they are in FL... so they had hurricane delays, but still, took 2 years.

Not only that, but they had to take out a construction loan on that house. The more the builder built, the more they had to pay. So they more or less have had two house payments for 2 years. Since we were in a community, we just put down a deposit, and got a mortgage when we closed. Nice, easy, simple.

Fibonacci

Here in Motown, Pulte (estate) line starts around 500 to 700k, while TB ranges from 550 to 850k depending on options for avg 3500sq ft. Both builders feature full brick frontal, but scrimp on full brick sides (hardyplank). I'd rather be in the fat part of the bell curve for resale, so I'm leaning toward Pulte since my all in-cost is more reasonable for the features that most buyers in the upper middle range are looking for: 4br/3.5ba/3car garage/granite/deep basement...yada, yada.

I've heard that Pulte is much more responsive during the building process.

My primary dillema is whether to build new and pay full retail, or purchase a slightly used home at a nice discount. There's something to be said for both sides...

Fibonacci

Well, it's been a year of serious browsing. And I think (wifey=overthink) that we've come to a conclusion.

We've signed two purchase agreements, one for spec home, one for new construction and ended up cancelling both. Why? Cancelled the spec home because the inspection was sub-par, amazed at how builders cut corners even at the prices we're looking at. We cancelled the new construction because teh wifey changed her mind on the lot (too many trees) not south facing.

Long story short, after looking at the market as rationally as can be - we've decided that it's worth saving 100k+ to purchase a used home that's less than three years old vs a home built from scratch. The only reason this is possible is because the market for higher end homes is so slow and sellers who have to move for relocation reasons are competing w/ new construction and are getting desperate.

One more question for A'zine: Anybody live on a golf course? Regrets?

Scrib

I know plenty of people that do...

I guess it depends on where you'd be... If it's 100 yards out from the green on a Par 5, I'd be real nervous. If it's by a tee box, I'd feel OK.

TBone2004

My in-laws have had many new homes built over the years - 600K to 800K...the two built by Toll were the worst construction they had experienced and horrific to do business with (customer service etc).

I know you said you cancelled, but just FYI to pass along. They do not build quality stuff.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

FWIW, when we were looking to move down here one of our final communities was on a golf course. We talked to a few people who already moved in (community was new) and they all had found balls on their yards and one had a window broken. To echo what Scrib said... it depends where you are located. Those around the greens or near the tee were OK... but in-between it's a crap shoot. Also, the one thing we were not fans of is the lack of privacy. Generally to have golf course views you don't have many trees, and we wanted a private yard where we could put in a pool, etc. and not have to worry about golfers gawking at anyone swimming.

Also, I know you cancelled, but the home ratings for 2006 came out already and Pulte was either #1 or #2 builder down here for customer satisfaction and service. I know I'm in a completely different market then you and you cancelled, but just figured I'd share...

Fibonacci

I'm a crappy golfer, so yeah I know what parts of a course get peppered!

The home we put an offer on is perpendicular to a t-box, about 50yards back.

And as for lack of privacy, we can always plant a few evergreens - a swimming pool is out of the question, we live in Motown after all

The nice thing about being on a golf course is that you don't stare out your kitchen/family room/deck into your nieghbors backyard.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

^ Yeah, pool in Michigan is probably not the best investment. But it was something we wanted down here, so when looking at communities, especially on golf courses, that was a factor. But yeah, the lot you were looking at is perfect. Behind the t-box with a view of the whole fairway. Sweet.

So we do not look out to a golf course, but it is all woods behind us, so it's nice. And our club is only about 5 miles away, so golf is close enough... but still, it would have been awesome to be able to walk out behind the house and practice whenever I wanted...

Fibonacci

Okay, after two years of browsing and one year of serious shopping we went w/ new build. Move in date will be approx six months from now.

Glad we were paitient, because we ended up saving about $80 grand on a YOY basis, counting all the builder incentives.

Just listed our current home and hoping to catch a decent bid, if not - tis in a great area for rentals and will be modestly cash flow positive.

Thanks for the color.