Loseit

iTrader: (1)

Ok, we closed on the house. It s a 3 bedroom split level. I love it except the kitchen and the bathrooms are dated.
The kitchen is the best of the 60's. Bleached white oak, white fridge (newer) and stainless steel electric stove, vinyl floors. Everything is clean and perfect...just really old and dated. It has an eat in area but i am thinking abou knocking out the wall to the dining room area and using it as the common dining area and doing like a breakfast bar/ counter thing to the dining area.

the room is about 12x14. i wanna change the cabinets, increase the number of cabinets, new fridge, gas stove, put in a dishwasher and tile it. But, the prices are scaring the bujeesus out of me.

What do you guys recommend as far as
1)tiles
2) the kinds of cabinets
3)diy vs. getting it done
4)counter top recommendations.
what ever else you can think of.
thanks peeps.

we will get into bathrooms after that

fdl

Just my of course. These are your "safe" choices.

1) Some sort of ceramic tile. Color is personal preference.
2) Some sort of maple cabinet. Color is personal preference.
3) Depends how handy you are, my gut is telling me you may need some help at least.
4) Can't go wrong with granite. Color is personal preference.

JLatimer

First of all... IMHO the most important rooms in the house is kitchen and bathroom. When entertaining usually people congregate in the kitchen. Include seating - your breakfast bar is a good step. Guests can sit at the bar and chat while you prepare food and drinks.

1) Porcelain and Slate are good choices for kitchens since they are color-thru meaning that if they chip, the color stays the same - many ceramics are white core, so if the chip you see the white core.
2) Cabinets are really a personal choice - make the surface design simple. Use hardware to customize the look. That way in 10 years you can obtain a new look, just by changing hardware.
3) Depends on how well you can deal with the renos. DIY always takes longer - especially if you have a day job. A kitchen is a fairly important room to do without and if it takes a couple of weeks to DIY what a professional can do in a few days it might be a deciding factor.
4) Personal taste - there are pros and cons to most surface styles, but anything cut for undermount looks good and prevents the gooey toxic mess that builds up under the lip of a surface mount.

soopa

1. DO NOT GO CERAMIC. Bad bad recommendation FDL. JLatimer makes a good point why. I went with slate, it's pure black, other then it getting dirty ALL THE FUCKING TIME and being FREEZING COLD it's fine. Durable, stands up to traffic... and like Jlatimer notes... it's easily repairable if you ever do have a problem... and even then... most times you wont want to repair it because damage looks natural.

2. Cabinets are a personal choice, like Jlatimer also notes. Definately go with a simple door design, go for an all wood box if you can scrape up the 15-20% extra... it's worth it...

3. That's a decision only you can make, but from the sounds of it... you need help.

4. Any natural surface (granite/soapstone/etc), concrete, or silestone. Pretty much anything that's not laminate.

soopa

P.S. Pick out everything and budget accordingly first. I did the snowball thing and it ended up costing me somewhere in the neighborhood of $50k (and still growing) for my Kitchen ""rehab"".

fdl

I dont see the problem with ceramic tiles. They look great to me. I guess when chipped they will look bad but in my experience they dont chip all that easy

soopa

It's all in the eye of the beholder, personally I think they're ugly to start with. I prefer natural products or at least something like porcelain which can be made to look almost natural. This tends to be the trend as well, as you don't see many people putting ceramic in high-end homes these days.

Regardless, it's not difficult to chip the surface of a ceramic tile, in my experience.

ric

In terms of dealing with the fear factor - you've got a few choices.

You can turn into an information wonk, like Soopa, and hone your taste by absorbing information like a sponge for about three to six months before you tear out a doorknob. If you are a control freak, this works well, and after a certain amount of absorbption time, you'll be ready to enter the marketplace with an informed mind. You can buy tons of self-help stuff on kitchens; there are even magazines wholly devoted to kitchens and baths - aside from the cute articles, their advertisements will reveal what is currently available in the marketplace. Absorb as much as you can via printed matter, then start hitting the showrooms, prepared to fend of assertive sales reps with a clear "I'm just looking" mode of operations. When you are ready, make a shopping list of everything you want to change, (floor, cabinets, lighting, appliances, cabinet fitout, etc) and then array the alternatives, and tally up the staggering amount. Then, do your research on outlets - there are discount appliance centers in almost any large city; their showrooms may lack glamor, but their prices will be discounted from the standard. (When we redid our kitchen, we replaced all of the key appliances, and paid, at the time, 25% less than "showroom" prices. I'll put up with a shabby showroom for better pricing, which translated, for us, into a better appliance choice....)

You can find an architect who specializes in small residential work. Their fee will be either percentage based, or more probably, a T/M to a fixed. You are paying for their information base, their technical understanding, and their willingness to work within your budget and your ideas of what you want. Your local AIA may have a list of architects who specialize in residential work. Many times, you can, by word-of-mouth, find architects who "moonlight" doing residential work for a combination of the fun and the bucks - and their fees may be quite reasonable. (I used to have a suburban kitchen and breakfast room practice in the Philly suburbs, and did several dozen small projects for folks who liked their home, but wanted to fluff it up). Interview three, and make your decision based on the "chemestry" and THEIR REFERENCES. Avoid architects who have "their own vision".... you want a pragmatic, knowledable person who knows their stuff and will work with you. If you are making any architectural changes that need to be documented for building permit issues, hiring an architect will be a necessity in some communities... in others, you can build a palace with a sketch on the back of an envelope....

You can go to a "Kitchen Specialist" and lay out your needs. These folks will have a fancy software 3-D package that will seduce you with wild visions of what you can do...... but do keep in mind that these folks are sales reps, and their impulse is to find out what you can afford as much as it is to deliver a moderately priced solution that addresses your primary needs. The asset of these folks is that, for a $$$$$$$, they will deliver a one-stop shopping solution for you.


The world of kitchen refurbishment, like the funeral industry, is filled with high markups for minimal product line. Just be very, very careful, be a judicious consumer, and think through every decision repeatedly.

As for flooring - Soopa's slate is gorgeous, and will last a lifetime, but is cold under foot. I don't favor ceramic tile, even though there is some beautiful stuff out there. Even though the suggestion may be repellant, there are now some stunning fake wood-grain vinyls. THere is also real wood with a poly finish. Bottom line is there is no perfect flooring - you have to find the one that has the matrix of assets you like.

Lighting is the most overlooked aspect of any kitchen renovation, and I've seen clients' homes with work done ten-fifteen years ago that was gorgeous, but the kitchen was unworkable because of shadow lines. A kitchen is a tiny factory, and has to be treated as such. Get lighting on the countertops, lighting on the general area, lighting over the stove and sink, and good full-spectrum lighting where you serve food. Flourescent lighting, even the color-corrected stuff still leaves most food sapped of its vibrancy, and I would turn to incandescent and quartz lighting for the most part. If you are unsure of your general lightning, invest in the cliche of track lighting so that you can adjust as you use the kitchen.

When you are ready, and an informed client, prepare a budget. Then multipy the budget by 20%, then factor an "unknown conditions contingency" of 10%. Take the same approach towards your schedule......

soopa

wow

fdl

fdl

regarding real stone vs ceramic. I guess it also depends on your budget, as I would image real stone is more expensive (depending on the size of the room of course).

Whiskers

Is there anything this man doesn't know?

Ric - Im thinking about switching jobs soon - look for my post soon

soopa

Real stone is fairly cheap if you go to the right place.

Go to a true stone shop, not a "tile supply" store.

My slate was under $2/sq ft from the stone shop for the same stuff that the local tile shops with fancy showrooms wanted $9 through $18!!! a square foot for.

Basically, for pennies, I got what one store wanted me to pay almost $5000 for.

soopa

... and by "the same stuff", I mean natural slate all quarried from the same region... probably the same mine... and probably all from the same distributor.

ric

Soopa is right, if you go to a stone source that gets stone that is reasonably local, you can get a bargain. Conversely, some of the very elegant European ceramic tiles run $12-20/sf for the material. Some Portugese ceramic tile, used for walls, not floors, has been glazed and fired for as many as 27 times, and costs over $50/sf for the material...... With some stone sources, be careful about getting stone that is cut too thin. Laser cutting has revolutionized the stone industry because it allows rapid slicing and allows slicing to be quite thin. Too thin, and the stone will buckle, break, shatter, crack and spall, whether it is slate or granite. Thicker will be more expensive, but will last.... really thin (veneer) stone can only be used on walls, in interior applications, with a mastic that is universally applied to the back.

With both stone and ceramic tile, watch the color of grout.................light grout will become dark over time, so start dark and preplan the "look". Seal the grout and all that, but still plan on a darker tone.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

i forgot to tell you i dont have a lot of cash. We are looking at about 30k everything.
I found some nice granite and marble 12x12 tiles at a clearance home store.

I guess the question i have about cabinets is being budget minded, how much cabinet is enough. How nice do they have to be. Like my parents cabinets are awsome, but do i need to spend that much? This is my first house. Good info guys. Keep comin with it.

soopa

It really depends how long you're going to live there and what kind of counters you're going to be putting on top of them.

I think of cabinets as fine furniture, it's the one piece I wouldn't want to skimp on... however...

You can save alot of money by, first, buying just OAK... OR... waiting until you find a sale on maple or cherry at the price of oak (usually end of year... Christmas time).

Additionally, you can save money buy going with particle board on the sides and backs. This will save you about 20%. However, if you're putting a natural or solid surface counter in... you probably don't want to do this. You need a plywood box to support weight.

Being budget minded though, you're probably going for a laminate counter? If this is the case, just get particle board cabinets. They won't last as long as AWB's, but they'll last long enough.

Then again, it depends on the design of the kitchen. You'll want to avoid particle board construction on island or peninsula cabinets... they won't stand up to someone kicking the back of them while sitting at the bar.

30k can get you a long way if you plan to DIY. Labor is a large percentage of the cost of any remodel.

soopa

For reference, I paid about $8000 for 16 cabinets, all wood construction, and solid maple fronts. This includes 4 glass cabinets and many interior upgrades (hidden drawers and a "pole-less" lazy susan).

I probably could have paid even less, my meager negotiating skills wore thin by the time we got around to purchasing cabinets... but this will give you a point of reference.

My first suggestion for saving money would be DON'T GO TO HOME DEPOT OR LOWES. They'll charge you more for less. Like Best Buy or Circuit City, manufacturers make special lines of their products with reduced quality to increase the box stores profit margin.

Go to a small local supplier and you can usually find a higher quality version of the same national brand cabinets sold at HD/Lowers for 5-10% less.

GreenMonster

Don't be scared... Look at this as an oppurtunity.

I bought my house with the kitchen already modernized... BUT, it's not to my liking. It's still too new for me to just rip out, but I don't like the layout and the 18" dishwasher kills me (I had to replace one, but didn't want to redo the kitchen just for a bigger dishwasher). I'm kinda stuck w/ a tweener... (something between old crap, and something brand new).

It might be alot of work to redo your kitchen and bath, but if you plan it out right, you'll have the exact kitchen an bath YOU want...

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

I am definately NOT going the LOWES/HD route. I can't belive their prices. I have found some local stores that I am looking into. I also have a couple of contracting buddies that seem to be willing to help me. Hopefully that will pan out.

I am not a huge DIY fan since my hours are crazy and whatever free time I have is filled up. Plus i am not good a running wiring etc.

I wanna get decent cabinets. Soopa you are right about the fake countertops. But, the plan is that I want to get good cabinets and upgrade to better countertops a couple of years from now.

soopa

Good plan, if that's an option in your future then you have to be sure to get all wood cabinets. Like I said, it's going to add as much as 20% to the cost, but it's totally worth it. Not only will you have more options with adding counters, but they will last longer, hang better, and you won't have to worry about your cabinets buckling or crumbling if your sink ever springs a leak.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

w/ 30k can I do bathrooms as well?

soopa

It really depends on what you're looking to do and how much you're going to do yourself.

I mean, you can spend as little as 5k for a complete kitchen overhaul to 100k or more, all in a small space. Same for bathrooms, you can re-do a bathroom for $100 or $10,000 or more.

You can get an $400 GE range, a $4000 Wolf, or a $40,000 full custom cast iron behemoth.

You could get an $80 American Standard toilet, an $800 Kohler, or an $8000 Lacava.

It already sounds like you're going the snowball route, adding projects, adding priorities, and recruiting friends that "might" help.

What you need to do is make a solid plan. The most detrimental things in any remodel are lost help and costly mistakes.

You can limit mistakes by making a complete list of what's going into the kitchen... every brand... every model... every dimension... every detail.

You can limit excess labor (or DIY) costs by reviewing that plan, solidifying what labor your friends can/will donate for free and WHEN (remember, even "free" time costs money), and hiring whatev er sub-contractors you need.

You need a plan for electrical, plumbing, lighting, everything.

If you plan everything first, you can save alot of money.

It sounds to me like DIY is not your area. Labor is going to be the most costly part of this project, and it could be the most unexpected expense if your friends can't meet your demands or you start tearing/buying before you've secured your help and agreed to a plan.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

do we have a pull out your hair icon?

ric

Bingo..... proactive planning is the best way to avoid a money pit. Everyone is susceptible to adding "just one more thing" - since we're doing the kitchen, why not do the hall floor in slate as well...... some of those add-ons may be legitimate and simple, others may be complicated, but they all add to the scope. In addition, you have to plan for the unknown. Even relatively modern houses will have "surprises" embedded once you rip out a wall, tear down a ceiling, etc.... which is what planning a construction contingency is all about....

soopa

I had lots of little "may as well..." moments. At face value, they all made sense. In the end however, they came back to haunt me. For instance, adding a wine cooler. It seemed like a simple idea... wine cooler was ~$1500... but the cabinet it was replacing was almost $1000... so it wasn't a huge upfront cost...

However, once it arrived (after we'd installed cabinets and shaved the 1/2 margins to level without shims) we realized that, unlike a dishwasher or most undermount appliances, it was a literal 34 1/2 inches in height with no lowering adjustability. (Dishwasher's go from 30 1/2 to 36 1/2 typically). This posed a major problem for the granite. Not only that, but it had to be placed almost perfectly in order for the doors of the surrounding cabinets not to hit it. Perfect placement doesn't sound hard... until you try and slide a 500 lb wine cooler over SLATE in a hole barely bigger then itself.... and having to level it in place.

Another costly mistake was signing off on a custom door before carefully reviewing the dimension sheet. I requested a door made for a 32" rough opening... they made it for 33". Another "simple" fix that was complicated by cabinet fronts on one side of the opening and a 6" cast iron waste pipe inside the wall on the other. You'd never think 1" could fuck things up so much, but it can.

Similarly, during demolition, we realized that one half of an exterior plaster wall was actually plaster over cement block (garage). This meant the wall had to be built out... that meant another 4.5" loss in room dimensions. No big deal... until I tried to find a way to make the same cabinet layout fit in the "smaller" room.


Moral of the story is, everything's a game of inches... and sometimes less. In the case of the door, I got lucky by having a mechanical planer which allowed me to shave the door casings just enough to squeeze the door in. Without that, I'd of been shit out of luck.

Plan EVERY DETAIL out.... and triple check it 7000 times. Like ric said, even in new construction you will find surprises.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

advice being taken in!!


i am going this weekend to start pricing stuff out.
So begins the process....

ric

Great idea - nothing better than walking the showrooms to get a feel. Wear armor plate the first time, and do NOT commit, do NOT reveal your renovation plans yet, and do NOT engage in soulful conversations with the sales reps.

But - before you go, you might make a list that has three categories of things you want to do -

Must do -
Like to do
Will do if there is money left over or my rich aunt dies.......


Then, after you do some self-education, take a look at your list and see how you might modify it after your learning curve has started....


In other words, set priorities. It is so easy to derail your primary goals by getting seduced into the refinements of some of the lesser priorities. If the priorities are cabinets, appliances and floors, then stick to your guns, and avoid looking at anything that distracts from that.... the only thing, as I';ve noted before that I would add, is careful lighting. A few thousand bucks on lighting for your kitchen can turn it from a boiler factory to a wonderful place to work, play and entertain......

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

ok, I went to this place called Remodelers Supply here in Chicago on the recommendation of a friend. They quoted be a price of just under 7k for Cardell cabinets wood fronts, paricle board sides, side rollers. Needless to say, I wasn't that excited.

I asked about the upgraded cabinets with plywood sides, bottom rollers...the said about a 15% increase in price.

Now these guys are supposed to be way cheaper than the HD. Lowes etc., with decent quality. I definatley do NOT want particle board. I can't see that lasting very long at all.

soopa

How many cabinets?

7k doesn't sound like much of a deal. Were I you, I'd check out some of the cabinet places in the suburbs...

Around here, most of the cabinet supply shops in the city carry national brands (who are all expensive). One option I didn't give enough credit, that I wish I had, was going to many of the custom cabinet manufacturers in our suburbs.

I only examined this option after commiting to a national brand cabinet from a local supplier in the city...

I realized that I could have gotten fully custom solid wood cabinets made from local timber for a little less than I paid for the national semi-customs.

soopa

Oh, and I imagine in your case... being in an expensive city... nobody IN the city is going to give that great a deal.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

i am out in the burbs.
My house is close to the city, but I am still at my parents house. The Fiance wants to move in together....in MAY!!!! but i digress

I am going to check out KDA etc.,
I wish I had a scanner I would put up the drawing the lady made today. Pretty cool. You can get an idea of the room!

soopa

Why not take a digital photo and post it.