mrdeeno

Situation is this...my building has a back apartment that used to be a post office and then sub shop, but was converted to a residential unit. This part has a flat roof, which I have had problems with since I obught the building. The tenants of this building are on power assistance from the power company, PPL. PPL had contacted me to give them approval for winterization to help it be more efficient, ie change light bulbs, caulk, put UP insulation, etc.

This year, I had enough problems with the roof, so I had the entire roof torn up and redone. Roofers were giving me warranty for like 15-20 years or something (don't remember, 'cuz i'm so pissed).

Anyway, to make a long story short, PPL contracts with some community assistance company to do the winterization, who then contracted with a subcontractor to do the actual work. They decide to cut 6 big holes in my BRAND NEW roof to install insulation, when it could have been done from the inside since it's all drop ceiling (they actually did do most of it from the inside). The roofers saw this when they returned to finish up along the walls (the flat part where holes were cut were already completed, it was only detail work left to do). They tell me NO WARRANTY.

I called PPL, they tell me to call the community action people. Community action people tell me to call the contractor. Contractor hasn't gotten back to me. No one at PPL can find the consent form they say i signed.

The holes they cut are patched up with roofing cement, but that's not the point. The point is I no longer have a warranty due to their work that I would have never consented to if it entailed anything with the roof. The tenant told me that the workers said they guarnatee it will not leak. Problem is, I have no idea who these workers are, much less trust any guarantee they give verbally (tenants go NO paperwork whatsoever).

My first thought is to sue PPL, since they initiated the process and are the ones who claim to have "consent" (which I asked for a copy of since I don't think it would entail cutting holes in someone's roof when its not necessary). Further, I have to figure out what to sue for. What is a roof warranty worth? I would think it would be at least the cost or even future cost of a new roof, since under an original warranty the roofers would tear up and reinstall a new roof under the worst case scenario.

Any suggestions?

p.s. the hole cutting incident just happened yesterday and i'm still researching who to blame and so far anyone who could know or do anything about it (either at PPL, the community action people, or the contractor) is either on vacation or unavailable.

mrdeeno

BTW, the new roof installation isn't even 2 weeks old yet. New roof and torchdown was installed Aug. 15-16. Hole incident happened on Aug. 24.

Will Y.

The value of your damage is difficult to prove since it is the value of a warranty-- you don't have any leaks or issues yet.
My suggestion is to check into warranties from the responsible entities for their work rather than sue.
1) Can your roofers warranty their work, but exclude any leaks/issues from the installation insulation holes?
If other properties you own/manage need roofing work, that might be an incentive to push the roofers towards giving you a limited warranty.
2) PPL and the community group should have all warranty information-- it should be part of their contract (based on experience w/companies here in SoCal).
The tenants are supposed to get material in writing, but it may not have been sent to them yet.

doopstr

I think it would be reasonable for the roofer to say they will not warranty the areas where the other guys put holes in your roof. They should take care of the rest though. People put new holes in their roofs for skylights and fans and such all the time, right?

mrdeeno

I think the issue with the roofers warrantying any part of the roof is because the holes are not localized but scattered throughout the roof. I see where they are coming from...if there is a leak, it can be from any of these spots, or none of these spots, even though it may run to one spot in the ceiling. This is why I replaced the whole roof in the first place, because I could not find the source(s) of the the leaks in over 5 years.

Then with a leaky roof, you have the roofers placing blame on the contractor (if they are even in business anymore...I did not hire them so i have no idea their reputability) and the contractor placing blame on the roofer and no repairs made since each party is blaming the other as to the source.

mrdeeno

As I said in my previous post, just the fact that another contractor touched the work of the roofer creates problems...now you have 2 contractors that can potentially point fingers at each other while the consumer is fucked if there's a problem. It's not an exact science to figure out the source of a leak and I'm sure each one will use that to their advantage to not warranty something.

When people put holes in their roof for skylights and shit (fans usually don't penetrate the top side), they know about it and hire a contractor to do it knowing who the contractor is and what their specialty is (and if they didn't do their research, then they should suffer the consequences).

I did not hire this contractor to put holes in my roof. They did NOT need to put holes in the roof to install insulation. They did NOT have consent, nor would I have given them consent, to cut holes in a 2 week old roof that has had problems in the past because of the nature of it (ie flat).

mrdeeno

PPL just faxed me the consent form which I signed back in May. This is what it says:

The thing that caught my eye is insulation. They can install insulation, but they can do this from the inside! They actually DID install some from the inside. Beats me why the hell they had to cut into the roof to install insulation (probably so they didn't have to move furniture).

I'm no lawyer, but nowhere in this consent form does it allow for damage or modification to the roof or walls or any permanent structure, whether they patch it up or repair it afterwards. And the part that really pisses me off is that it WAS NOT NECESSARY.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

I guess the issue is it doesn't say anywhere "how" to install the insulation. And yes I agree, it was poor judgement to put holes in the roof.

chill_dog

Problem is, it doesn't specify that they won't take what they deem to be the quickest and easiest route for them to put the insulation in, either. Everyone agreed insulation was going in; no one covered how to get it there, thus leaving it to the contractor to do what suited them best.

I understand your frustration, but quite frankly, you should've been more involved with the project. It's your building that was having work done on it, so you should've spoken with everyone involved from beginning to end. At no point should any work have been done to anything without you having first spoken with the person doing the work. Maybe it got lost in the process of making the long story short, but it seems as if you just assumed PPL, their contractors, the subs, and/or the tenants would be looking out for your interests.

Fibonacci

I've learned this lesson the hard way. Don't just assume the person you hire to do a job will be competent and act in your best interests or see the situation as you see it. Sorry to hear about this dilemma though.

mrdeeno

I wish it was that simple. I didn't hire these guys. If I had, I would had made sure they were competent and I would have been involved from the start to finish, like I was when the roof was installed (which is why the guarantee to the tenant from the guys who cut the roof means NOTHING to me, i have no idea who they are!).

The consent form was signed back in May. I remember calling them before signing to clarify what was happening, but the part that concerned me the most was removing and installing appliances. They said unless the appliance is really old and bad (which mine are not), they usually woudln't change it. They said it basically involves caulking around windows and sealing up drafts and changing lightbulbs and making sure heaters are up to snuff. They made it sound like nothing major would happen unless the building was really bad which it's not.

Further, there was no notice given when they would come (I specifically requested PPL let me know if anything major like appliance replacement is needed...they said they will try but can't promise but i figured tenant would let me know since I'm good friends with him). The tenant just told me that they just heard noises and went to see what was going on and saw guys on the roof working. No one was notified, these guys just showed up out of the blue.

But I think the key here is what "Insulation" means. Insulation can mean the clear plastic shit you put over windows in the winter. It can mean the pink stuff you stick in above the drop ceiling which is what I would do. It could mean the yellow shit that is put into walls before the drywall is put up. To a normal reasonable person, no one would expect installation of insulation would require cutting holes in a roof. I have seem many rennovation projects, house builds, and basic maintenance performed, and NONE ever required the roof to be cut. Even this one DID NOT require the roof to be cut. Just because the consent form said "insulation" should not mean that the contractor has free reign to install it however he wants. Even contractors I HIRE don't have free reign to do however they like, they consult with me FIRST.

AdamNJ

I think it's time to hire a lawyer and sue whomever he says.

mrdeeno

The contractor called me yesterday morning and said he had no idea why I'm so pissed since I was there when he was doing the work. I'm like, 'uh what? I was at work all day, I didn't know anything happened until I was there AFTER my roofers got there that afternoon!". He's like, "But i even used your cell phone!". I'm like, uh, NO! that wasn't me! Turned out it was the tenant he was talking to.

Then he goes to tell me that he had consent from the PPL form. I told him that that consent form does not give him free reign to do anything he wants to the building. He can install insulation and if he would have to tear down walls and rip up roofs, ANYONE in their right mind would seek consent before doing that! He's like "But I thought the guy i was talking to was the owner." The fact that he thought the tenant he was talking to was the owner and therefore he had consent proves my case.

I talked to the guy in charge at PPL also. He agrees with me that the consent form does not give free reign to do ANYTHING to install insulation, such as ripping up roofs or cutting into walls or whatever, but he had to talk to the contractor to get details of what happened.

I have a lawyer I will talk to. After thinking about it, I think no judge in their right mind would give me the cost of a new roof. It's like if you buy a new car and I dent your door. You're not going to get a new car, no matter how "new" the original car was. You'll get the cost to fix the dent.

I talked to my roofers and told them to get me an estimate to repair the holes to where they would feel comfortable enough to warranty it, and I will present this to PPL or other contractor to cover that cost. I think that's fair. The contractor said they would come and patch up the holes with the torchdown material I had remaining and he would guarantee the work on those holes. Again, I told him "I DO NOT know how you are, I DID NOT hire you, your guarantee means NOTHING to me!". Further, i wouldn't have a warranty on the rest of the roof!

We'll see what happens after I talk to a laywer.

nsnrider

iTrader: (2)

good to see you're being reasonable about this, a lot of people would just try to sue for a new roof, personal damages, etc. and sue for an obscene amount of money like $1m and get it thrown out of court. wish you best of luck with this and keep us updated.

SHRXTC

I feel for you, Good Luck.
Definitely hire a lawyer.
It seems like the contractor thought he was talking to you when it wasn't, that seems like a no-no.

Good Luck~~