Legs
10-20-2005 | 08:33 AM
#41
I
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Chicago Suburbs
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to stick to non-smith machine squats if I can.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Correct. It is not as effective. Mostly because the Smith Press promotes isolation. So from an effectiveness perspective (unless you define effectiveness in a very peculiar way), free weighted squats is way better.
Actually, you will lift more weight in the case of free squats. Proof of the fact that a lot more muscles get invovled and in a much more natural way (as far as your body's biomechanics nature is concerned).
Excellent question. When I do calves, I use the press machine. Why? Because I now need isolation to help me in the case of calves. One of the rare, if not the only, case/s. I also use the STEP so I put half my feet on the STEP and half hanging so I increase the ROM. Another reason I do it is because I can go very high as far as total weight. So high that my spine cannot handle it (I can go 5+ plates on each side maybe more). So after warming up and acclimating, I do one-foot/leg calf raises. Again, in the case of this particular exercise, you need stability and balance will is not your friend necessarily.
Actually, you will lift more weight in the case of free squats. Proof of the fact that a lot more muscles get invovled and in a much more natural way (as far as your body's biomechanics nature is concerned).
Excellent question. When I do calves, I use the press machine. Why? Because I now need isolation to help me in the case of calves. One of the rare, if not the only, case/s. I also use the STEP so I put half my feet on the STEP and half hanging so I increase the ROM. Another reason I do it is because I can go very high as far as total weight. So high that my spine cannot handle it (I can go 5+ plates on each side maybe more). So after warming up and acclimating, I do one-foot/leg calf raises. Again, in the case of this particular exercise, you need stability and balance will is not your friend necessarily.
10-24-2005 | 08:58 AM
#43
I
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 58
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by HQuakers
I wouldn't reccommend smith machine bench press or anything smith machine really.
Well I agree with bench press, but like I said, my gym isn't big enough to do free weighted squats the way I want to do them.
10-24-2005 | 09:26 AM
#44
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
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From: NoVa
Originally Posted by HQuakers
I wouldn't reccommend smith machine bench press or anything smith machine really.
The Smith machine has some major advantages.
The major one, if you do not have a spotter the Smith machine is excellent -because it has different levels and you can easily rack the weight yourself without having to push it all the way back up on a squat or bench. (Although I would always recommend spotters)
In addition, the Smith machine definitely can help the person to have much better form then doing a free range squat or bench.
Another reason is you can easily walk way forward (start your squat with your legs out far in front of you) to emphasize more on your hamstrings. You cannot do this in a free squat position.
10-24-2005 | 10:11 AM
#45
Suzuka Master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,391
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From: Myrtle Beach
Originally Posted by stphy32
I disagree with your statement.
The Smith machine has some major advantages.
The major one, if you do not have a spotter the Smith machine is excellent -because it has different levels and you can easily rack the weight yourself without having to push it all the way back up on a squat or bench. (Although I would always recommend spotters)
The Smith machine has some major advantages.
The major one, if you do not have a spotter the Smith machine is excellent -because it has different levels and you can easily rack the weight yourself without having to push it all the way back up on a squat or bench. (Although I would always recommend spotters)
In addition, the Smith machine definitely can help the person to have much better form then doing a free range squat or bench.
Another reason is you can easily walk way forward (start your squat with your legs out far in front of you) to emphasize more on your hamstrings. You cannot do this in a free squat position.
10-24-2005 | 10:18 AM
#46
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 1
From: NoVa
Originally Posted by ABreece
Use a power rack
But you miss out on sooooo much good stuff in terms of core strength, balance, etc. The squat is not just a quad/glute/ham exercise.
This is an excellent point.
But you miss out on sooooo much good stuff in terms of core strength, balance, etc. The squat is not just a quad/glute/ham exercise.
This is an excellent point.
The core strength comment is completely correct! My point was more so for spotting.
The problem with power racks are that they dont have a front and back support. You can move forward and backwards-As in, you could come completely off balance and lean forward and mis-rack the weight. With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Please dont mis-interpret me. I have stated before that Free standing movements are WAYYY better than Supported/assisted movements IF AND ONLY IF YOU HAVE PROPER FORM!
If a person does not have proper form they should NEVER do free ANYTHING!
10-24-2005 | 11:35 AM
#47
I
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 58
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by stphy32
Another reason is you can easily walk way forward (start your squat with your legs out far in front of you) to emphasize more on your hamstrings. You cannot do this in a free squat position.
The closest thing to doing that with free weights is by using dumbbells, but it doesn't work the lower chest as good. I agree that the smith machine has it's advantages, but I usually use it as the last resort.
10-24-2005 | 10:54 PM
#48
giggity giggity giggity
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,217
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From: MontCo, PA
What about decline bench press for lower chest?
Also, I agree with you styph...I said I wouldn't reccommend the smith because of the free-standing, free-motion issue. However, in some instances the smith does have its advantages.
Also, about putting your legs out in front of you, you are correct. In my case, I usually use a squat machine that allows me to do this, but you could use the smith just as effectively.
Also, I agree with you styph...I said I wouldn't reccommend the smith because of the free-standing, free-motion issue. However, in some instances the smith does have its advantages.
Also, about putting your legs out in front of you, you are correct. In my case, I usually use a squat machine that allows me to do this, but you could use the smith just as effectively.
10-24-2005 | 11:21 PM
#49
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,434
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From: NY
Legs are very important. I train them just as much as my other body parts. Squats are a neccessity IMO , i do them about 3/4x a month.
Having strong and powerful legs will help you lift more, and keep you in overall better shape.
Having strong and powerful legs will help you lift more, and keep you in overall better shape.
10-24-2005 | 11:27 PM
#50
Suzuka Master
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Myrtle Beach
Originally Posted by stphy32
The core strength comment is completely correct! My point was more so for spotting.
The problem with power racks are that they dont have a front and back support. You can move forward and backwards-As in, you could come completely off balance and lean forward and mis-rack the weight. With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Please dont mis-interpret me. I have stated before that Free standing movements are WAYYY better than Supported/assisted movements IF AND ONLY IF YOU HAVE PROPER FORM!
If a person does not have proper form they should NEVER do free ANYTHING!
The problem with power racks are that they dont have a front and back support. You can move forward and backwards-As in, you could come completely off balance and lean forward and mis-rack the weight. With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Please dont mis-interpret me. I have stated before that Free standing movements are WAYYY better than Supported/assisted movements IF AND ONLY IF YOU HAVE PROPER FORM!
If a person does not have proper form they should NEVER do free ANYTHING!
10-25-2005 | 12:13 AM
#51
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 8
From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
I disagree with your statement.
The Smith machine has some major advantages.
The major one, if you do not have a spotter the Smith machine is excellent -because it has different levels and you can easily rack the weight yourself without having to push it all the way back up on a squat or bench. (Although I would always recommend spotters)
The Smith machine has some major advantages.
The major one, if you do not have a spotter the Smith machine is excellent -because it has different levels and you can easily rack the weight yourself without having to push it all the way back up on a squat or bench. (Although I would always recommend spotters)
Call it creative, or not, it works wonders.
Also, I use the power rack's spotters for pretty much most of the exercises I do there, which is mostly everything done with a barbell. So the Smith, I do not touch, except for standing calves.
10-25-2005 | 12:15 AM
#52
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
In addition, the Smith machine definitely can help the person to have much better form then doing a free range squat or bench.
When you bench press, or squat at the SMITH, you necessarily have DIFFERENT form. Not better. Squatting at the Smith is very different than squatting in the power rack because the angles are different. So the form is different. Now the question is: is the form better or worse?
Well: Depends on the goal. If addition of muscle as fast as possible is the goal, then the SMITH is worse, because of its isolation nature.
That's why most bodybuilders, or even other types of athletes, will recommend the power rack.
10-25-2005 | 12:18 AM
#53
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
Another reason is you can easily walk way forward (start your squat with your legs out far in front of you) to emphasize more on your hamstrings. You cannot do this in a free squat position.
Emphasizing your hamstrings is an isolation type of decision. Emphasizing anything by changing the natural (to the body's) motion, increases isolation.
10-25-2005 | 12:26 AM
#54
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
The core strength comment is completely correct! My point was more so for spotting.
The problem with power racks are that they dont have a front and back support. You can move forward and backwards-As in, you could come completely off balance and lean forward and mis-rack the weight.
That's why one should always use the power rack spotters. So that if the bar falls, it's caught before it reaches the ground.
But you mention this as a safety item, right?
With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Originally Posted by stphy32
Please dont mis-interpret me. I have stated before that Free standing movements are WAYYY better than Supported/assisted movements IF AND ONLY IF YOU HAVE PROPER FORM!
If a person does not have proper form they should NEVER do free ANYTHING!
Because of the isolation principles they naturally inhibit.See, That's why machines have been so successful. They are great for people very new to resistance training. The machine "holds your hand" because it sets all these..."limits" as to your position and it only allows your to move a certain way. Hence, isolation.
It's like an automatic tranny vs. a manual, to use an auto related example
Machines being the auto and free weights the manual
10-25-2005 | 12:28 AM
#55
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 16,399
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by FastAcura
I do this for lower chest. I wouldn't be able to do it this way without the smith machine. I move up as much as I can and when I lower the weight, it's almost on my stomach. That way when I lift the weight, it works the lower chest really good.
The closest thing to doing that with free weights is by using dumbbells, but it doesn't work the lower chest as good. I agree that the smith machine has it's advantages, but I usually use it as the last resort.
The closest thing to doing that with free weights is by using dumbbells, but it doesn't work the lower chest as good. I agree that the smith machine has it's advantages, but I usually use it as the last resort.
10-25-2005 | 12:29 AM
#56
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by ABreece
If a person can't hold proper form, they should decrease the weight until they can.
Well, it's way before that point. A person has to be taught proper form by someone who understand it and knows it. Or at least read about proper form and try to experiment at first.
10-25-2005 | 09:31 AM
#59
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 1
From: NoVa
Originally Posted by gavriil
I have solved this spotter issue with the power rack spotters at the power rack. When I bench press, I put the slanted (one side higher then the other), so that I take advantage of the full ROM, but when I cant lift any more, I lower the bar on top of my tommy where the spotters are higher so the bar balances there.
Call it creative, or not, it works wonders.
Also, I use the power rack's spotters for pretty much most of the exercises I do there, which is mostly everything done with a barbell. So the Smith, I do not touch, except for standing calves.
Call it creative, or not, it works wonders.
Also, I use the power rack's spotters for pretty much most of the exercises I do there, which is mostly everything done with a barbell. So the Smith, I do not touch, except for standing calves.
Good idear. I know I rarely use the smith, unless I want to isolate my hams but I still think there are way better exercises to isolate hams.
When you do standing calves on the smith do you stand on a step? To get more range of motion?
10-25-2005 | 09:36 AM
#60
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 1
From: NoVa
Originally Posted by gavriil
I hear a lot of people say that, but it's a misconception. HEre is why:
When you bench press, or squat at the SMITH, you necessarily have DIFFERENT form. Not better. Squatting at the Smith is very different than squatting in the power rack because the angles are different. So the form is different. Now the question is: is the form better or worse?
Well: Depends on the goal. If addition of muscle as fast as possible is the goal, then the SMITH is worse, because of its isolation nature.
That's why most bodybuilders, or even other types of athletes, will recommend the power rack.
When you bench press, or squat at the SMITH, you necessarily have DIFFERENT form. Not better. Squatting at the Smith is very different than squatting in the power rack because the angles are different. So the form is different. Now the question is: is the form better or worse?
Well: Depends on the goal. If addition of muscle as fast as possible is the goal, then the SMITH is worse, because of its isolation nature.
That's why most bodybuilders, or even other types of athletes, will recommend the power rack.
The power rack without a doubt is much better its just unfortunate that many people IMO cant seem to keep good form and they throw on too much weight and make their form even worse
I definitely think that people should first TRY to learn with a power rack. If it is too difficult, moving onto Smith machine may help and then later going back to power rack. But I think that if you start teaching someone on a Smith Machine first, the movements are so isolated that when they go to a powerrack they are so taken back because you have to use so many other core stabilizing muscles.
10-25-2005 | 09:39 AM
#61
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 1
From: NoVa
Originally Posted by gavriil
That's why one should always use the power rack spotters. So that if the bar falls, it's caught before it reaches the ground.
But you mention this as a safety item, right?
With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Proper form is about been taught of it. You wont learn proper form at the SMITH or any other machine. That's because the form is not...proper...with any machine Because of the isolation principles they naturally inhibit.
See, That's why machines have been so successful. They are great for people very new to resistance training. The machine "holds your hand" because it sets all these..."limits" as to your position and it only allows your to move a certain way. Hence, isolation.
It's like an automatic tranny vs. a manual, to use an auto related example Machines being the auto and free weights the manual
But you mention this as a safety item, right?
With the Smith machine, you can only go up or down.
Proper form is about been taught of it. You wont learn proper form at the SMITH or any other machine. That's because the form is not...proper...with any machine
Because of the isolation principles they naturally inhibit.See, That's why machines have been so successful. They are great for people very new to resistance training. The machine "holds your hand" because it sets all these..."limits" as to your position and it only allows your to move a certain way. Hence, isolation.
It's like an automatic tranny vs. a manual, to use an auto related example
Machines being the auto and free weights the manual Exactly.
Nice simile. 
10-25-2005 | 09:49 AM
#62
Suzuka Master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,391
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From: Myrtle Beach
Originally Posted by stphy32
Unless they dont know how to do proper form period.
- If you don't know what the proper form is, a smith machine isn't going to help you.Speaking of lesg... post some of your favorite hamstring exercises, i want to try something new.
10-25-2005 | 11:15 AM
#63
tsxy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 1
From: NoVa
Originally Posted by ABreece
I figured that went without saying - If you don't know what the proper form is, a smith machine isn't going to help you.
Speaking of lesg... post some of your favorite hamstring exercises, i want to try something new.
- If you don't know what the proper form is, a smith machine isn't going to help you.Speaking of lesg... post some of your favorite hamstring exercises, i want to try something new.
Sure I will try and find some at lunch. I have some fun shit. Do you work out with a partner? I know some killer partner ones.
10-25-2005 | 09:28 PM
#66
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
gav I think you and I agree with a lot of things
Hey no surprise here
When I saw you had interest, respect and even personal experience for olympic lifts, I knew that'd be the case
10-25-2005 | 09:31 PM
#67
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by stphy32
Ok I completely understand your point and I should have elaborated. I meant that it helps to AID in correct form (obviously if you dont know what correct form is then it doesnt help) Seeing as how it is an isolation movement if knowing the correct form it can help you to stay in that form better than using power rack.
The power rack without a doubt is much better its just unfortunate that many people IMO cant seem to keep good form and they throw on too much weight and make their form even worse
I definitely think that people should first TRY to learn with a power rack. If it is too difficult, moving onto Smith machine may help and then later going back to power rack. But I think that if you start teaching someone on a Smith Machine first, the movements are so isolated that when they go to a powerrack they are so taken back because you have to use so many other core stabilizing muscles.
The power rack without a doubt is much better its just unfortunate that many people IMO cant seem to keep good form and they throw on too much weight and make their form even worse
I definitely think that people should first TRY to learn with a power rack. If it is too difficult, moving onto Smith machine may help and then later going back to power rack. But I think that if you start teaching someone on a Smith Machine first, the movements are so isolated that when they go to a powerrack they are so taken back because you have to use so many other core stabilizing muscles.
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