Article - Acura Trying To Capture Emotion with 4G TL
08-28-2008, 11:40 AM
#1
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Article - Acura Trying To Capture Emotion with 4G TL
Here's the article link: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b.../08/27/story5/
I think they may be capturing A LOT of emotion...just not the kind they hoped.
I think they may be capturing A LOT of emotion...just not the kind they hoped.
08-28-2008, 12:03 PM
#2
The best stuff is on page two. To me, it reinforces that the core Honda values are suddenly back in style.
" ....At Lexus, ES sales were down 18 percent through July and total Lexus sales dropped 15 percent. Infiniti’s G series was faring better, with sales up 1 percent in the first seven months, but overall Infiniti sales were down 3 percent.....
And Acura is well-positioned in two ways....In the short term, Honda isn’t as exposed as its competitors in the market for larger luxury vehicles, which is falling out of favor amid high gasoline prices. That protects Acura in a volatile leasing market as well, he said.
....but the situation isn’t dire because Honda and Acura vehicles maintain their value better than many competitors’.
“Honda residuals aren’t falling apart,” Merkle said. “They’re reserved on incentives, so they don’t have to knock down the prices as much. That keeps the residuals stable.”
And Acura is well-positioned in two ways....In the short term, Honda isn’t as exposed as its competitors in the market for larger luxury vehicles, which is falling out of favor amid high gasoline prices. That protects Acura in a volatile leasing market as well, he said.
....but the situation isn’t dire because Honda and Acura vehicles maintain their value better than many competitors’.
“Honda residuals aren’t falling apart,” Merkle said. “They’re reserved on incentives, so they don’t have to knock down the prices as much. That keeps the residuals stable.”
08-31-2008, 02:13 PM
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I agree with all of you guys. My emotion is that the 2009's make me want to throw up...
08-31-2008, 04:45 PM
#7
Suzuka Master
The probelm witht he TL and in particular the 4G is they are confused, what class do they want to compete with, seems like the TL and TL-SH are targeting too braod of a target. I agree take the 3G size, improve it with better body stiffness and really tweka the Type-S with SH and more and go after IS and BMW3, the 4G is getting way to big to be that nimble.Or they need to move the TSX up more to fill the spot of the 3G TL. The new TSX is still a tad small, but if they beefed that puppy up they coudl go after the IS and 3 series. Maybe drop in a larger than RDX turbo setup and SH and make it nimble as a 3 series and IS, have a Type-S version and go hunting.
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09-01-2008, 08:57 AM
#8
From the way they positioned the 4G TL, its going after the 5 series / E-Class segment.
I agree that the TSX needs another engine and better suspension to compete with the IS and 3 series. Why not shoe horn the 3.2L into the TSX or at least throw in the RDX Turbo.
That would at least signify the competitors for both car lines.
The 2009 RL is DOA until the larger model targeted at the 7series / S-Class model arrives.
Acura is a bit confused at the moment.
I agree that the TSX needs another engine and better suspension to compete with the IS and 3 series. Why not shoe horn the 3.2L into the TSX or at least throw in the RDX Turbo.
That would at least signify the competitors for both car lines.
The 2009 RL is DOA until the larger model targeted at the 7series / S-Class model arrives.
Acura is a bit confused at the moment.
09-01-2008, 03:59 PM
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+1 on the above...
Remember, I think Acura said they are moving out of the Sports Sedan with the TL and "upgrading" to a Luxury Sedan for 2009
Remember, I think Acura said they are moving out of the Sports Sedan with the TL and "upgrading" to a Luxury Sedan for 2009
09-02-2008, 12:40 AM
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An interesting article. I can tell you from selling cars for 5 years in Northern California that very few people want an AWD car. I think in other places that don't get snow they'd agree. I'm sure Acura will capture some sales in the East Coast and maybe in the Plains states (they probably buy domestic there though) but offered RWD/AWD would have been the smart move for them. Mercedes made AWD standard on the 09 CL550 but that's not quite the same market as the TL. I also think the Honda and Acura buyer are the same and they don't seem to buy as much on emotion as other buyers. Honda/Acura buyers are very technically oriented and can over analyze too much and for a luxury brand there is too much concern for 'value' which is fine for the buyer but it's a different mentality than with BMW or Lexus or Mercedes I think. Much of the article seems to make points for Honda in terms of not losing as much money as other manufacturers which is nice but those arguements probably don't do much to sway buyers.
I think if they re-designed the grille Acura would do better but considered they only sold 200,000+ cars once in 21 years (2006) they have a long way to go.
Resale is horrible on the RL so not certain their arguements on residuals and holding value pay off...
I think if they re-designed the grille Acura would do better but considered they only sold 200,000+ cars once in 21 years (2006) they have a long way to go.
Resale is horrible on the RL so not certain their arguements on residuals and holding value pay off...
09-02-2008, 03:35 AM
#13
2G TLX-S
^^^^^ Exactly, why should people want AWD in the ever-sunny belt ?
AWD is heavy, power-robbing, fuel economy unfriendly, expensive, and complicated to repair. It is only desirable in geographic regions where there'll be lots of adverse driving conditions.
AWD is heavy, power-robbing, fuel economy unfriendly, expensive, and complicated to repair. It is only desirable in geographic regions where there'll be lots of adverse driving conditions.
09-02-2008, 04:53 AM
#14
SH-AWD is an all weather system, not just for bad climates. All this begs the question. It appears that SH-AWD adds about 300 pounds to the car. Assuming Acura were to build a RWD car but still use the SH differential to split torque left to right on the rear axle, how much of a weight savings would we realize over the current AWD cars? They would still have the drive shaft and diff so wouldn't a "RWD only" car only save about 50-100 pounds (two half shafts and the f/r diff)?
09-02-2008, 12:51 PM
#16
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09-02-2008, 12:54 PM
#17
2G TLX-S
SH-AWD is an all weather system, not just for bad climates. All this begs the question. It appears that SH-AWD adds about 300 pounds to the car. Assuming Acura were to build a RWD car but still use the SH differential to split torque left to right on the rear axle, how much of a weight savings would we realize over the current AWD cars? They would still have the drive shaft and diff so wouldn't a "RWD only" car only save about 50-100 pounds (two half shafts and the f/r diff)?
Not just heavy. A whole chunk of power is lost to the extra AWD gearings, and to spin the extra two sets of wheel and tire. Unless in adverse weather conditions that AWD can find good use in, AWD will only degrade acceleration performance and worsen fuel economy on dry roads. Why paid more to get less ?
Don't forget the extra maintenance cost too.
09-02-2008, 01:56 PM
#18
Why making the RWD so complicated ? A conventional, lightweight limited-slip differential RWD is all that is needed to do the job well, just like all other RWD auto makers. The plain vanilla BMW RWD has always been praised for excellent handling performance, no fancy mechanics involved.
I think you hit the nail on the head yourself when you said, "just like all other RWD auto makers" When in Honda's history have they done the easy or predictable thing? In fact, you might argue that this independent spirit is what enthralled many of us with the brand in the first place.
BMW has copied Honda's VTEC, and now they are copying the torque vectoring. I know you're not naive enough to think that if Acura debuted a "plain vanilla BMW RWD" type drivetrain, that the forum wouldn't erupt with whining that "Acura should have torque vectoring cause BMW already has it!" "Acura is falling behind again!"
As for the thoughts on weight gain and drivetrain loss, I was having this discussion with Shawn Church at TOV and he is much more knowledgeable about these types of things than I am and this was his reply:
A 100 lbs estimate for going from SH-AWD to SH-RWD seems reasonable by my calculations. Just as importantly, as others mentioned, is the reduction in power loss/drag. Since a goodly portion of the weight reduction is going to come from rotating mass (axles, CVs, ring gear, etc.), I'd reckon that the same powerplant in a SH-RWD car would put down 3-6% more power to the wheels than an SH-AWD car. This would also translate into fuel economy increases.
Basically, the TL (just as a relative example - not saying it should be RWD) would be 2.5% lighter, put down 5% more power and probably return at least 1 mpg better fuel economy. The combination of less weight and better power transmission would result in a power to weight ratio almost 8% better as well, which is quite tangible for most people. Think of it as similar to a 25 hp gain.
Going to a traditional RWD diff would save another 30-50 lbs and free up 1-2% more power as well. I think that Acura would be wise to avoid this in future models though, as the SH-AWD handling benefits and marketing value exceed the weight/power penalties IMO. Even if most people won't notice them....
SC
Basically, the TL (just as a relative example - not saying it should be RWD) would be 2.5% lighter, put down 5% more power and probably return at least 1 mpg better fuel economy. The combination of less weight and better power transmission would result in a power to weight ratio almost 8% better as well, which is quite tangible for most people. Think of it as similar to a 25 hp gain.
Going to a traditional RWD diff would save another 30-50 lbs and free up 1-2% more power as well. I think that Acura would be wise to avoid this in future models though, as the SH-AWD handling benefits and marketing value exceed the weight/power penalties IMO. Even if most people won't notice them....
SC
09-02-2008, 02:31 PM
#19
2G TLX-S
^^^^^ Gee..... It's about face again. This about face attitude is clouding Honda/Acura's product directions, and is gonna hurt the company bad.
Even Audi dropped the "Never Follows" motto, after copying Acura's torque vector AWD. No hard feelings for Audi.
Even Audi dropped the "Never Follows" motto, after copying Acura's torque vector AWD. No hard feelings for Audi.
09-02-2008, 02:36 PM
#20
09-02-2008, 02:58 PM
#21
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Honda didn't 'innovate' with the Ridgeline so much as use off the shelf parts to make a minivan/suv into a pseudo p/u truck. They did a good job on it but it's more like trying to make something they have fit rather than re-inventing the wheel.
Used to be every car made was RWD so I'm not sure how anyone could think Honda would be 'copying' other RWD brands. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus (except for their Camry), Infiniti all do RWD. Acura takes the VW/Audi tactic of going from FWD to AWD but clearly most others don't do that and are successful overall.
Used to be every car made was RWD so I'm not sure how anyone could think Honda would be 'copying' other RWD brands. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus (except for their Camry), Infiniti all do RWD. Acura takes the VW/Audi tactic of going from FWD to AWD but clearly most others don't do that and are successful overall.
09-02-2008, 03:24 PM
#22
Its not only about saving face, it's about selling cars and making money. Question: your TL isn't RWD yet you bought it anyway. Why? I don't want to speak for you so I'll share what many others tell me. The TL offered more value than other cars. This value could be viewed as more space, more HP or more features or all of the above. The TL is able to do this because it shares it's chassis with other products in the Honda/Acura family and can amortize the development costs.
If Honda were to make a new RWD chassis for the Acura line, they would be limited to RL, TL and maybe TSX. This means that you only get 110,000 sales per year on that chassis (give or take 20K). Currently they generate over 600,000 sales per year on the global mid-sized chassis. What does this mean for you?
IMO it means that a RWD TL won't cost what a FWD or SH based car costs. OR you have to build it longer without changes to amortize the costs (see the S2000 as an example). Since a 10 year production run for a TL is not acceptable, the only solution is to sell the car for more money.
Thus the gamble becomes, will Acura buyers pony up BMW prices for the proposed Acura RWD car or just go buy the BMW? Thats a good question and faced with this dilemma, they apparently went with SH as a way to bridge two regimes since rumors are that the next chassis will be RWD. Personally, I'd say that this current product is preparing customers for future "Tier 1" products at "Tier 1" prices. Anyway sorry for the long post...
If Honda were to make a new RWD chassis for the Acura line, they would be limited to RL, TL and maybe TSX. This means that you only get 110,000 sales per year on that chassis (give or take 20K). Currently they generate over 600,000 sales per year on the global mid-sized chassis. What does this mean for you?
IMO it means that a RWD TL won't cost what a FWD or SH based car costs. OR you have to build it longer without changes to amortize the costs (see the S2000 as an example). Since a 10 year production run for a TL is not acceptable, the only solution is to sell the car for more money.
Thus the gamble becomes, will Acura buyers pony up BMW prices for the proposed Acura RWD car or just go buy the BMW? Thats a good question and faced with this dilemma, they apparently went with SH as a way to bridge two regimes since rumors are that the next chassis will be RWD. Personally, I'd say that this current product is preparing customers for future "Tier 1" products at "Tier 1" prices. Anyway sorry for the long post...
09-02-2008, 07:15 PM
#24
2G TLX-S
09-02-2008, 07:45 PM
#25
09-02-2008, 07:57 PM
#26
2G TLX-S
Its not only about saving face, it's about selling cars and making money. Question: your TL isn't RWD yet you bought it anyway. Why? I don't want to speak for you so I'll share what many others tell me. The TL offered more value than other cars. This value could be viewed as more space, more HP or more features or all of the above. The TL is able to do this because it shares it's chassis with other products in the Honda/Acura family and can amortize the development costs.
If Honda were to make a new RWD chassis for the Acura line, they would be limited to RL, TL and maybe TSX. This means that you only get 110,000 sales per year on that chassis (give or take 20K). Currently they generate over 600,000 sales per year on the global mid-sized chassis. What does this mean for you?
IMO it means that a RWD TL won't cost what a FWD or SH based car costs. OR you have to build it longer without changes to amortize the costs (see the S2000 as an example). Since a 10 year production run for a TL is not acceptable, the only solution is to sell the car for more money.
Thus the gamble becomes, will Acura buyers pony up BMW prices for the proposed Acura RWD car or just go buy the BMW? Thats a good question and faced with this dilemma, they apparently went with SH as a way to bridge two regimes since rumors are that the next chassis will be RWD. Personally, I'd say that this current product is preparing customers for future "Tier 1" products at "Tier 1" prices. Anyway sorry for the long post...
If Honda were to make a new RWD chassis for the Acura line, they would be limited to RL, TL and maybe TSX. This means that you only get 110,000 sales per year on that chassis (give or take 20K). Currently they generate over 600,000 sales per year on the global mid-sized chassis. What does this mean for you?
IMO it means that a RWD TL won't cost what a FWD or SH based car costs. OR you have to build it longer without changes to amortize the costs (see the S2000 as an example). Since a 10 year production run for a TL is not acceptable, the only solution is to sell the car for more money.
Thus the gamble becomes, will Acura buyers pony up BMW prices for the proposed Acura RWD car or just go buy the BMW? Thats a good question and faced with this dilemma, they apparently went with SH as a way to bridge two regimes since rumors are that the next chassis will be RWD. Personally, I'd say that this current product is preparing customers for future "Tier 1" products at "Tier 1" prices. Anyway sorry for the long post...
Those were the glory days. Now what does it have. No best value, no class-leading horsepower, no leading hp/litre engine tuning.
But don't get me wrong. FWD chassis TL and TSX will still sell well. But they won't do nothing in lifting the Acura brand image. Nor will offering the V6-AWD combination do much either. But a V8-AWD will do wonders. Acura can continue to sell all these sub-$50K cars in hugh volume, and remain in the "luxury-wanna-be" level for years to come, looking up in vain at the never achievable "true luxury" brand recognition.
The problem with Acura is not about selling cheap cars. Any sub-$50K car with a Honda or Acura name will sell. The problem is all about Acura falling short at selling big-profit-making $50K+ cars, because of the withering "luxury-wanne-be" brand image. It's not about sales volume, it's about fame. It doesn't make much financial sense running two non-luxury auto divisions - Honda and Acura, side-by-side ?
Offering AWD is just a catch up game with the true luxury auto makers, especially BMW and MB, who are already offering AWD in more and more of their model lines.
Now, with the upcoming V8 RWD chassis RL and the V10 supercar ready for sales, Acura will have a real chance of lifting it's much needed brand image.
Last edited by Edward'TLS; 09-02-2008 at 08:00 PM.
09-02-2008, 08:06 PM
#27
It is my hope that this car has a softer ride to draw sales from the ES because this is a car that we haven't been able to touch for 5 years. The SH model can cater to those looking for more sport. I'm looking forward to their arrival so we can try these out for ourselves.
09-02-2008, 09:06 PM
#28
It is fine to evoke 'thumbs-up' emotions with universally appealing design - e.g. 3GTL in past years. However, if you dare go controversial, do so with more that 3 models in your line up. RL is dead, 4GTL is a big ???, and TSX is fine (but in a hard-to-classify category). This is high-stakes for Acura.
IMHO, Acura missed the boat completely and blundered hard. Really, at the $40k + range, it is less about daring looks and all about power and performance. An appealing look is simply the icing on the cake. Regardless of the FWD vs AWD vs RWD debate, Acura will not survive another generation without some serious engine/transmission development.
IMHO, Acura missed the boat completely and blundered hard. Really, at the $40k + range, it is less about daring looks and all about power and performance. An appealing look is simply the icing on the cake. Regardless of the FWD vs AWD vs RWD debate, Acura will not survive another generation without some serious engine/transmission development.
Last edited by pokin; 09-02-2008 at 09:08 PM.
09-04-2008, 11:26 AM
#29
It is fine to evoke 'thumbs-up' emotions with universally appealing design - e.g. 3GTL in past years. However, if you dare go controversial, do so with more that 3 models in your line up. RL is dead, 4GTL is a big ???, and TSX is fine (but in a hard-to-classify category). This is high-stakes for Acura.
IMHO, Acura missed the boat completely and blundered hard. Really, at the $40k + range, it is less about daring looks and all about power and performance. An appealing look is simply the icing on the cake. Regardless of the FWD vs AWD vs RWD debate, Acura will not survive another generation without some serious engine/transmission development.
IMHO, Acura missed the boat completely and blundered hard. Really, at the $40k + range, it is less about daring looks and all about power and performance. An appealing look is simply the icing on the cake. Regardless of the FWD vs AWD vs RWD debate, Acura will not survive another generation without some serious engine/transmission development.
Acura does need more models and should offer a RWD model.
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