mrag

Looking for feedback from current TL owners...


After some online searching, I have uncovered a new (untitled) 2014 TL SH-AWD Tech - essentially a "leftover" for a very aggressive price and seriously considering a long distance purchase (as it is half way across the country). I am a long time Honda/Acura owner, currently driving a 2014 MDX SH-AWD Tech (upgraded from 2011 TSX) and wife has 2009 Honda Odyssey Touring. The plan is to replace the Odyssey with the MDX and I will get a new daily driver. Being in the Midwest and driving 20,000 miles per year - both winter traction and MPG are important purchasing decisions, along with safety. Fun drive is not too far behind... My reservations on the TL are as follows:


1. Dated - basically a 2009 design with older technology. How old will it feel in 2-3 years from now?
2. Fuel economy - some reviews have suggested the 18-26 on premium is at best, but likely worse.
3. Winter handling - my MDX was great this past winter, but again some reviewers have suggested the TL SH-AWD is more performance oriented and not particularly great in the winter. Sport suspension creates a firmer ride, too and likely does not help.


The new, completely redesigned Subaru Legacy 3.6R has caught my attention. Since this is not a Subaru forum, I will not labor on about its merits... suffice to say, similar specs (in terms of size, creature comforts, etc.). Clearly not as performance or luxury oriented, but surpasses TL in MPG and likely winter handling with a different AWD system. Checks the safety box, too. Fully loaded still a few grand less than the very aggressive deal I found on the leftover 2014 TL. Actually, the Legacy would end up being a 2016 as orders are just now starting for the next model year.


So, I am a long time Honda/Acura fan considering a change. Would like to hear your thoughts and experiences. While a very minor consideration, I will have a new teen-age driver in 4 years and could see the Legacy as a more applicable hand-me-down vs. the TL


Much appreciate any feedback - good/bad/ugly.

SilverJ

There was a MMC in 2012. So not so dated. The tech in the car is great. To me the TL looks as new as any other car on the road.

The legacy is more in the class of the Accord, not the TL. The TL is going to have a better interior/ better fit and finish and is just a better car overall. Its a class up.

The TL with SH-AWD is great in the snow. Is it as good as the legacy ?
Not sure. But its very good. Good enough for any winter, any where.
Fuel economy, your MDX is going to blow away the TL in fuel economy.
The TL is going to get anywhere from 16-24 MPG. This is not a big deal to most people spending 35-40k on a car.
If one car gets 20MPG and another get 24 MPG--would that REALLY sway you if you liked everything else in the car that got worse mileage ?

Acura reliability will always be better than Subaru with more readily available parts and more places to service it.

Good luck with your search.

vbgregg

Just to address your MPG question. I have a 2014 TL Tech (but FWD). It only has about 4500 miles on it. I took it on its first road trip (12 hours each way) and I was pleasantly surprised to get 32.4 MPG. I get about 25 MPG at home, though it's not all city driving. I guess the SH-AWD would get a little lower MPG, but probably not much.

Gregg

hometheaterman

Honestly, I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for posting this, but here is my opinion. I have never had or even driven the Subaru, but I bought a 2013 Acura TL SH-AWD Tech with the manual transmission in September of last year after trying unsuccessfully to order a new one. This had 11,000 miles on it and was as close to new as I probably could have gotten. I've regretted it ever since I got it. I also am a long time Honda owner and I was coming from a 2006 4 door Accord V6 with the 6 speed manual transmission. It was one of the best cars that I've owned, it was quick (not fast but quick), fun to drive, reliable, had plenty of room, and got 25-26mpg around town if I drove it easy and 29-30mpg on the highway. When looking for a car I wanted something similar. The 305hp of the TL was a major attraction, the manual transmission and 4 doors were two other requirements for me and this didn't leave me with many choices.

I drove around 500 miles to get the car without having been able to test drive a manual. I'd test driven an automatic, but not well enough.

As I got to drive this car more I quickly realized that while it may have 305 HP, it's not quick at all. Looking up the quarter mile times online puts it as slightly faster than my 06, but I can tell you that driving both back to back this car feels disappointing. The extra weight really takes it's toll on this car. To add salt to my wounds not only does it feel disappointing in the power department, but it requires premium gas and I've been averaging around 17-18mpg going back and forth to work which is horrible for car made today. I think if it had more power I'd be more forgiving of the crappy gas mileage. I've gotten as high as 30 mpg with all highway driving, but seeing numbers that high are pretty rare. If I do half and half driving I seem to average 20-21mpg.

Now, the power and gas mileage aside the interior is decent. It feels dated and lacks many features that the competition seems to have. It doesn't offer a heated steering wheel, air conditioned seats (in the tech model), Lane Watch, etc. Heck even the Accord has the side cameras that show you a side view while changing lanes. There is no reason a $40k + car shouldn't have this in my opinion. The bluetooth and back up camera are the only two improvements since my 06 Accord which I find pretty disappointing considering it's 7 years newer.

My other complaint is for such a huge car the trunk is pretty narrow. I have a rifle case I carry to the range fairly often that fits fine in all of my previous cars, but it won't fit in the trunk here no matter how I try to angle it. If it doesn't fit in there, you just don't take it because unlike the Accord, the rear seats do not fold down which is another huge inconvenience.

Then to top this off, when I come on the Acura forum I read thread after thread of how these engines start burning massive amounts of oil prematurely do to a poor engine design. Luckily I haven't had this issue yet *knock on wood*, but it seems like quite a few people do. They also have propeller shafts that fail on a regular basis along with torque converters in the automatics that fail very often. All of these are big money repairs with the propeller shaft being the cheapest at around $1,000.


Now for the good. This car is a very fun car to drive in the mountains. While it's not the best handling car in the world, it definitely holds it's own and the AWD system works very well. After owning this car for 9 months, the handling is really the only good thing I have to say about it. I've only driven it once in the snow and that really wasn't a fair storm to judge it's performance by. It was a lot of ice mixed in with the snow so everyone was sliding. It didn't do great, but it did well enough to get me home from work.

I also think the body lines of this car look great. I'm a big fan of how the car looks on the outside although it is on the big side.

Overall though, I really don't see much of a reason to buy a TL, and if I could go back I wouldn't buy one again. I find myself driving my Accord 95% of the time and leaving my TL in the driveway. I've recently been looking at trading it in on something else, but the thought of losing so much on it has been the only thing that has kept me from doing it already.

Drei

iTrader: (2)

1. Dated - basically a 2009 design with older technology. How old will it feel in 2-3 years from now?

What makes you think it's dated? It has a futuristic design that will age very well. It has an amazing ELS surround system, back up camera, TPMS, USB & AUX ports. Unless you need the new safety features like Lane departure warning and all that then I'd suggest the Accord

2. Fuel economy - some reviews have suggested the 18-26 on premium is at best, but likely worse.

Yep, city MPG's aren't the best, but that is fine with me considering the car's weight, engine and SH-AWD, but it does very very well on the highway 25+

3. Winter handling - my MDX was great this past winter, but again some reviewers have suggested the TL SH-AWD is more performance oriented and not particularly great in the winter. Sport suspension creates a firmer ride, too and likely does not help.

It is great in the winter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz9ol5zy5nk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YidkaqlW9ns

SilverJ

If you can't see/feel a difference between a 2006 accord and your 2013 TL,
well, lets just say your in the vast minority. Which is OK because everyone has their own opinion. I would guess the things that are important to you (fold down seats, heated steering wheel, bigger trunk, blind spot indicators) don't matter much to others when you consider all of the things the TL DOES bring to the table(which you think is not much).
But I get the impression that you may think the TL is just a more expensive Accord, the MDX/RDX is a more expensive CRV and so on and so on.
You may be of the mindset that "they don't build em like they used to", and your right. But the reality is they build them better. You may not feel that way though.
I think the lowest trim 4G TL is leagues ahead of even the best accord but that's just my opinion based on what I value in a car. To each his own.

hometheaterman

I guess my question is what exactly does it bring to the table other than AWD and decent handling?


When I get into my aunt's BMW (also 2013) the interior quality, features, etc are all quite a bit better than the TL. She doesn't have to check the oil constantly to see if it's burning oil. Not to mention the doors and body lines actually line up unlike every TL on the lot.

Same thing with my co-workers Lexus. The car is in a whole different league. Those are the cars that are in the price range with the Acura. If you compare the TL to a Civic, yes it offers a lot more. However in comparison to the other competition in this price range I just don't see that it has much to offer other than the manual transmission which is the only reason I chose it.

I know this is an Acura forum so I know there will be a ton of people that love this car, but I don't really see where this car really has much to offer in comparison to the competition.

sockpuppet

I was going through the same decision a couple years ago...good deal on a used TL, with the perfect Legacy sitting in a lot close by. Ultimately went with the TL, though not for lack of trying; I walked away from the Legacy over $500, and when I changed my mind and went back, the salesman told me it was gone (he didn't realize that it had just been moved).

But ultimately, I have never regretted the TL. And now, a few years later, I still get a bit of a thrill driving it; I can't say that I'd necessarily feel the same way about the Subaru. The Subaru would be more practical during the hockey season, as carting my equipment, and my son's, is a bit of a squeeze. But still, very happy with the TL.

What hasn't really been addressed, though hometheaterman hinted at it...when you look at the mpg numbers, don't forget to take into account the cost of premium fuel for the TL, which isn't needed for the Subaru. MPG is one thing, but the $/mile is a much bigger discrepancy.

SilverJ

You probably need to be more specific on the models your referring to.
And BMW as a manufacturer isn't in the same league with Acura and Lexus in terms of reliability. BMW's are cash cows riddled with problems. Check their forums. Assuming you don't have a lemon, I'm not sure why you would have even bought the TL if there was nothing else you liked about it besides the body lines and the fact that its a manual with decent handling.
Plenty of manual shift BMW's around.
As far as Lexus is concerned, great, reliable cars. No manuals in their faster models though in this price range and they are far more luxury than they are sport.

RCJD

OP,

I currently have a '14 AWD Advance, the only disappointing thing about this car is the MPG. I will be lucky to get 20 MPG, my average is 18-19.

Other than that, the car is a blast to drive!

I previously had a 2013 TSX-Tech, if you ask me to go back and decide again to trade my TSX to this TL, I will probably would be keeping my TSX. Why? Because TL is big and heavy for everyday driving and I think TSX can match the TL on the "fun to drive factor" and will have a better MPG.

Goodluck!

arpypat

The legacy is only a few hundred pounds less than the TL, so with the ~40 less HP, it will be a similar ride to the TL. The TL does, however, come with a torque-vectoring system where up to %100 of the available power to the rear wheels will go to the outside wheel when cornering. Even it's only about 30% going to the rears, it is very fun driving this thing around corners! I'm pretty sure the Legacy is split 50/50 front/rear at all times.

Assuming the Legacy is fully loaded, it will come with a Harman/Kardon stereo, which sounds AMAZING. I have a friend who picked up a '15 Legacy and he is loving it. The TL Tech does come fully loaded, so it will come with the ELS stereo. It is still better than most stock sound systems, but doesn't quite match up to the Harman/Kardon.

You will probably be getting similar gas mileage out of the two. I have the SH-AWD and drive about 40% city and 60% highway (half of it stuck in rush hour), and I average around 22 MPGs. EPA estimates for the Legacy are 20/28, but in everyday driving situations you can expect to average in the low 20s.

The interior of the TL may have come from 2009, but it is aging VERY well. The leather does wear a little prematurely, but the design of the dash/speedo/seats are very nice. Even the plastic trim looks great. The only thing people will complain about is not having a touchscreen interface anywhere. I personally am happy about not getting my oily fingers all over a screen whenever I need to input an address!

Hope this helps. Goodluck!

patcracks

don't do it man! I have a 2015 legacy with nav and sunroof granted not a 3.6r but the car is WEAK. If you are a driver and you enjoy the drive, do not buy a Subaru! I miss my 2012 TL tech/awd auto(lease was up so instead of 26k to buy the lease out I got the Subaru, Big mistake!) Even with the 3.6 Subaru recommends premium so forget about saving on gas! DON'T DO IT STICK WITH ACURA. The Nav/radio interface on the Subaru touchscreen is the WORST kind of touchscreen technology possible. DONT DO IT

mrag

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

One thing I have discovered from this string is the oil consumption issue - something I was not at all aware of and am quickly learning about. My dealer even "validated" this information, albeit with limited details. Perhaps this is why the 3.7 is not currently offered in the Acura lineup... it certainly gives me pause.


Another is the several comments about weight and size, I can concur that my prior TSX was a blast to drive and I always appreciated how nimble it was. Sounds like the TL is much less so...


Being at my current station in life, little things like a fold thru rear seat back does make a difference as stated by hometheaterman. Likewise, driving 20,000 miles annually MPG does make a difference. Subaru is offering the latest technology, safety features, H/K stereo and more. Plus, a few minor updates are suggesting the 2016 will be that much better.


To comment on some of the Subaru specific references, the new model does include torque vectoring AWD and is a true all-wheel drive system (vs. front biased like TL). Regular fuel is all that is needed, so there will be a positive difference in gas costs - particularly long term. The 3.6R is distinctly different than base car and also carries a HCVT (high-torque version). While I am generally not a CVT fan, the programming to simulate "gears or shifting" really helps to mask the typical drone associated with these transmissions. Most auto critics say Subaru is on top of the CVT game at present. Along with high marks for safety and residual, this becomes an enticing proposition.


Guess the bottom line is after driving Honda/Acura for nearly 20 years (sans a few years in a wonderful VW Passat) I am simply looking for a change of pace. As suggested earlier, a Legacy may also prove a good hand-me-down in 4 years to my then teenage daughter vs. an admittedly "hotter" car like the TL.


While it may sound like decision make - I am still ultimately on the fence. The TL is a 2014 new "leftover" 10 hours away, so no telling how much longer it will remain. 2016 Legacy orders start tomorrow for delivery end of Summer - they are in such demand currently selling off trucks before hitting dealerships. So, presumably need to finalize something soon or miss a window of opportunity.

Again - much appreciate all comments and welcome additional thoughts!

flunder

Have you tried the current Subaru? I am not sure if Subaru will be more nimble than TL.

TL's 3.7 engine is by far not smooth, Subaru's H6 [or engines in general] is/are in a different category. Especially with the cold engine shake... Also do a search on the oil consumption on Subaru's engine... At last, when road is not plowed, both get stuck when snow is 12"+. You want to get a CUV with air suspension or elevated truck for that. When road is plowed, any car with good snow tires will do...

SilverJ

Ultimately you have to make what decision is best for you and your family.
I've owned about 7 Acuras so far and the 4G TL is my favorite (although its hard to compare it to an MDX). I really think the Legacy compares more to an Accord than the TL. And if your going to go family sedan, but still want some fun I would look hard at the Honda Accord sport. Great looking car, comes in a manual, much faster than the Subaru with way better gas mileage. And I believe it has fold down seats. I saw a silver one the other day and was amazed at how sharp looking it was. Food for thought.

flunder

Wow, I think we are on the same boat. Except, I would prob still buy it again as the major difference between Manual v6 Accord and TL is the AWD system. Further, TL is a real good deal as I got mine for $40k out of the door. When compared to the Accord you have specified would be $30k out of the door with 4 cyl. So far, I have no compliant on the MPG as it almost doubles what I am used to... As for trade-in, it is prob one of the best attribute when compared to its competitors; do it early or be prepared to keep it.

As for the issues, I am keeping my fingers crossed and optimistic for the following reasons :

Propeller shafts- I think '13 has a different part
Torque converter- Unless you carry one in the trunk, otherwise I don't think we have one.

LNJ

Isn't the Subaru's torque vectoring brake based as opposed to active differential like the TL?
Anyway owning a Mitsubishi Outlander XLS with S-AWC which is basically an Active Front Differential Outlander with AWD, the TL SH-AWD can't compare in snow handling. The TL is tuned for performance and will send all its rear power to to the rear outside wheel every time you accelerate during a turn and that's pretty dangerous in slick conditions. My rear came loose many times the past winter and luckily traction control kicked in even with Blizzaks. It really needs a Snow mode so it can actively negotiate how it distributes power to the outer rear wheel as to not over power it in those conditions.
Fuel mileage in the city is bad. No rain sensing wipers is an inconvenience. And no one touch 3 blink turning signal is annoying too. Otherwise I love how it drives except in winter.

mrag

Wow - for my purposes, AWD is intended to assist in winter traction. If you are suggesting it does the opposite (meaning performance biased), than that further clouds my decision.


Guess I don't know enough behind the technology, as my MDX with SH-AWD was flawless in this past snowy season.

echodigital

You need to do a test drive of the 2 cars. When I test drove the previous gen Legacy, the seats where not very comfortable at all. They have done a lot in the new Legacy this year. I have seen the Legacy R version and it looks nice. Rims are the trendy 2 tone multi spoke ones the look like the ones on TLX. Asthetically, the R will have LED front and back lights and it has a very similar silhouette to the TL. At some point, you may want to change the front halogen bulbs on the TL. I would get the Acura as it's considered more premium.

SilverJ

What gives you the impression that the SH-AWD used in the TL is different than whats in your MDX ?
I have not seen anything to that effect. Honestly I have never had any issue in the snow with ANY TL and a good set of All weather tires.
I'm not sure what some of you guys are looking to do in the snow. If it's really snowy, drive much slower and you wont have issues unless your tires are garbage. No car or AWD system can handle ICE which is why you see so many wrecked SUV's during snowstorm because they wind up believing the hype that they can drive normally during the winter because of their elite AWD systems.

morgan1819

Do some research on the Subaru before you buy.

Subaru's were incredible values back in the late 90's or early 2000's ... 20k could get you a well equipped, dealer demo Outback with a great AWD system, leather, and excellent reliability ( other than the gasket issue they had for a couple of model years ... which they seemed to handle fairly well ).

Seriously, you couldn't go wrong, if you were looking for something in that particular class of vehicle.

Unfortunately, they are still fighting the label of a budget vehicle, but currently at a premium price. Not a great combo.

It would be tough to spend $35k on a Legacy, when the vast majority of them are the budget cloth, 4 cylinder versions. Still a nice car, but really tough when you are trying to resell, and there are a million of the cheaper used versions sitting out there for about half of the price you are hoping to get for your pre-owned 3.6r.

I guess it just really depends on what you are looking for....

JM2010 SH-AWD

SH-AWD is very strong in winter conditions. There's a video around somewhere comparing it under winter testing conditions to other mfrs' systems. It has the added benefits of torque vectoring among all 4 wheels and can overspin the outside rear wheels in turns, which provides for a really thrilling cornering experience. One tester awhile back said that the AWD TL cornered so hard it would "drain the blood from your head." That's hyperbole, obviously, but you get the picture. Fun!

flunder

From my limited knowledge:

Snow tires >>> AWD
Get snow tires for snow, get AWD for summer and winter fun

On-road AWD not fun = waste fuel all year round

mylove4cars

Talking about oil consumption Subaru, BMW, Audi all have oil consumption problems; hence, with the same features as a 2013 SH-AWD Tech a new BMW will cost you around $56,000.00.

The Tl's SH-AWD system is most likely still one of the best on the market today, snow driving needs snow tires regardless which car you buy, ice is for skating not for car driving.

Some links about oil related problems with Subaru's, (class action lawsuit.)


I understand that some are disappointed with the TL, if you visit other forums, you will find the same patterns for other cars. At the end of the day OP will decide which car and hopefully be happy in the end.


Subaru Faces Class-Action Lawsuit Over Oil-Consuming Boxer Engines - autoevolution


3.6r using oil - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums


Moderator, if all possible, check the insert link feature; I tried on 2 different computers and it doesn't work.

LNJ

The weight of the MDX most likely helps with the traction.
In real world conditions, you don't want the rear outer wheel to be over-powered in a wintery situation. It's definitely nerve wreaking fun but not the best in winter.

mylove4cars

^^^^^^^^
Why is the Tl's SH-AWD system one of the best on the market today?

Torque vectoring generates direct yaw control to make the TL SH-AWD® exceptionally neutral under power, for greater handling precision and control.

Drive-by-Wire™ throttle system monitors pedal position, throttle-body opening, engine rpm and road speed to establish driving conditions in real time, and this data is used to define the throttle control sensitivity necessary to provide the predictable and responsive feel corresponding to driver expectations.

The Drive-by-Wire™ throttle system also helps integrate engine functions with the Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) and traction control system.

Vehicles with high power ratings using conventional front or rear drive systems generally use a limited-slip differential to help maintain traction under power. By linking inside and outside drive wheels, these systems tend to resist turning and can increase understeer-working against the front tires as they attempt to turn the vehicle. Conventional AWD systems work similarly to link the inboard and outboard tires and the front and rear axles that can create resistance to turning. Using torque vectoring to help turn the vehicle, SH-AWD® creates a more responsive, neutral and predictable platform while retaining the usual benefits of all-wheel drive.

The control logic for SH-AWD® is integrated with the TL’s Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) ECU. The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) provides information on engine rpm, airflow and transmission gear selection, while the VSA® ECU provides wheel-speed data. The SH-AWD® ECU also monitors steering angle, lateral G-forces, yaw rate, and electromagnetic clutch engagement for the right and left rear axle shafts. Drive torque is calculated from PCM information, and then the acceleration situation, wheel spin, lateral G forces and steering angle are used to determine the front-to-rear torque distribution and the torque split between right and left rear wheels to keep you safe in adverse weather conditions.

mylove4cars

^^^^^^^
In the snow with a rear wheel drive vehicle and winter tires, you will do better than with any AWD system.

A vehicle with AWD and winter tires will do better than an rear wheel drive.

Adverse weather and the right tires are the foremost important, that's all you have between the car and the pavement.

mylove4cars

^^^^^^ Correction