George Knighton

I get it.

But, honestly...don't Porsche and a few other options lists just drive you up the wall with all the decisions you have to think about?

MandoTL

I can't believe this thread has become more opinionated with foolish arguments. Can we just agree to disagree.

Who really cares about brand prestige or which sold more than the other. Depending on the price range, we should be glad competitors are offering a selection and what features customers want in their future car.

I for one will consider all mid-size luxury sedans when I am in the market for a new car, I could care less if its a German, Japanese, Swedish or Domestic as long as it meets my needs, looks good and priced right.

But after seeing the TLX I like it a lot, the infiniti Q50 followed by the Lexus IS. The 3 series is nice esp. with M package but still a bit too bland. Same with MB and Audi

BEAR-AvHistory

Yes Porsche is very very bad, not with the option packages themselves, but the horrendous prices they attach to some. I was looking at a Boxer & the one I would have bought if I did not get the Cobra was $90K over a base price of $62K, that’s 50% in extras.

That being said you can say yes to this & no too that. When we did the 2014 Porsche Cayenne for my daughter the other truck in the mix was the Range Rover. Price would not be the determining factor, Porsche was more fun, but the final cost even up was actually in favor of the Porsche.

Side note: Running boards for the Cayenne are a dealer installed thing @ $1850 in parts + labor. I got exact copies made from stainless steel for $530 from Amazon & installed them myself saving about $1500.

Tommy8888

Cadillac is well on it's way to Tier 1 because everything is 'new' for them right now in terms of the CTS/ATS. Give it another 3 years and as all their cars break down left and right.. they will be right back competing with Volvo in terms of sales.

Tommy8888

I can't argue with you in regards to BMW/MB.. But I don't know if Audi is better than Lexus. If the 'perception' is really that strong... the Audi will be out selling Lexus because they offer around the same price cars.
Actually the A4 is much cheaper than the IS/ES. The A4 starts at 33,000 and it comes with a pretty good package by 35,000. The ES dominates Audi's A4 in sales. I think it was 77k ES sales compare to maybe 30k A4.

Also if you COMBINE the Lexus IS and ES .. their sales matches that of the 3 Series. It's actually the same tier car(IS/ES) On the Lexus forums all the posters are annoyed by the fact Lexus Haters will pretend IS/ES are different tiers and shouldn't be merged when talking sales figures.

Perception is also different depending on the area you live in. That is very important.

For instance.......Most of the UC Schools in California(UC Irvine, UCLA, UC San Diego etc) have very large Asian populations, around 40-50%, and the Lexus/BMW/MB Brand is definitely considered better than Audi. The Acura brand also used to hold a LOT of weight among younger people in California. In fact from 2000-2006ish, I will always hear my older brothers and their friends talk about Acura cars instead of Infiniti's....

When I was visiting Memphis, people were asking 'is Infiniti a good car'?

It highly depends on the area you live in.

People in China don't even know any Luxury Brands outside of BMW/MB and maybe Audi. Lexus is making a surge there but it's not like it is in America.

weather

I am not sure why all this talk about the perception of brands and whether one is Tier 1 or Tier 2 etc. At the end of the day, we can all agree that we want the best car for the money (driving dynamics and features) and regardless of what people perceive our cars to be worth, as long as it brings a smile on our face, a boner in our pants and keeps money in our wallet, aren't we all then winners?! (minus our female counter parts who I didn't want to offend by statement #2).

BEAR-AvHistory

Actual stats on Caddy reliability do not support your claim of trouble after 3 years. Going back to 2007 they are getting 4 or 5 stars out of 5 for reliability. About Lexus
(64K cars sold in 2013) in China they will never do well there until the open production factories in country. Chinese know as a lot about luxury cars but no brand will get any traction (no pun intended) in China without local production facilities.

weather

^^ I tend to agree with you on this one Kevin....Cadillac is certainly on their way to own the industry respect. This is not your grandfather's Cadillac anymore I still wouldn't buy one but my main reasons would be because of the following:

1. The CTS is too big.
2. The ATS looks a bit odd with the dual exhaust and their positioning of them.
3. The wheel looks too small for the car.
4. The CUE system
5. The price for a GM that are not rare and everywhere where I live...

Otherwise, their interior and material looks good.

gplayer

I dont think so.

Look at what Chrysler has done. They used to be horrendously unreliable. Now they are ranked overall as "average" in reliability by Consumer Reports.

GM is moving the same way, and Cadillac is at the front of the push. Why? Because people will always buy Silverados and Yukons and Corvettes and Impalas, but upscale/luxury vehicles are always on the razor edge of failure, until you get to established brands such as BMW/Mercedes/Lexus.
In the past, you could count on elderly people buying Cadillacs, because that's who GM aimed them at. Now they're in a completely different market, and they have to make their cars accordingly, otherwise they will be back to competing with Volvo, as you said. Cadillac and GM management realize that, and they are going to try their best to avoid failure.

Nedmundo

It's not just all the issues, but the exorbitant prices for some packages that contain stuff that's standard on much less expensive cars. For example, if you want a garage door opener on a 320i, you need to pony up for the Premium Package, which they could just call the "Kia Forte" package. Gimme a break! The German luxury brands must make a huge chunk of their profit in the options and packages. I doubt there's much profit in a base 320i with no options.

I think Acura's generous level of standard equipment is one of its advantages, because when comparably equipped, the German competitors can be as much as $10k more.

deepen03

what makes me think i'm not paying for the HIDs and leather in Acura? um lets see.. compare a BASE TSX with a BASE AUDI A4. TSX has STANDARD HIDS and REAL leather.. 31K for a TSX, almost 36K for an A4. If you even take the TL vs. the A4, the TL is around 34K and still has more standard features than an A4. same goes for the C-class and 3-series.. A TSX or TL gives you more for your money than them. Now of course, there is a limit to what Acura can offer for a fully loaded model vs. the Germans, but to a certain level they are competitive.

atl7

i love the new tlx but the new IS looks much sportier imo. the tlx looks like an rlx in the front and an ilx in the back so it doesnt have a strong sense of identity

BEAR-AvHistory

Bottom line, regardless of anything else you might want to bring into the discussion, is the base Acura would be cheaper than it is with HID's etc. as an option instead of built in to the base price. I would expect about $1500.

The A4 costs more because people will pay more for it as the Audi brand has cache that Acura brand wants, tried to get, but was not successful in its pursuit. Example RLX sales of 500/600 a month trying to go head to head in the $50K+ price segement. Its not a sum of the parts game its a perception game.

A basic rule of economics is things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Another rule is its hard to equate a value leader, bang for the buck item as a luxury item.

kurtatx

You're reaching here. Cadillacs won't break down in three years, and if they did, they're still GM and cheaper to fix than a BMW, Audi, etc. When you get past the fact that it doesn't have a three pointed star on the hood the future cars from Cadillac are likely to be the best on the market. Then you add the CTS/ATS which aren't good, by the way, they're fantastic.

winstrolvtec

I would add to that conversation, that at the same time, it would likely make adding them (the HIDs) as an option cost even more than it could have been. So regardless of relative value and if people will still pay, we still know that in some brands you are not getting a break on things and with others you are, that also doesn't change that part of the discussion.

A lot of the common options could be included, which does raise the base pricing and overall pricing/option scale but at the same time, reducing supply and build costs, which in turn makes adding those options cheaper and allows the car to be a better value for the well equipped shopper, while perhaps making it slightly more expensive for the baseline buyers, in theory.

I don't see either as correct or incorrect, it depends on the buyer and what they are looking for. There are winners and losers with each. I have always viewed it as the value bundled car may sway people because of that type of structure and the savings, etc, and if you just so happen to like the car outright and it happens to be better priced or a good deal/buy/value then it's a win-win, while if you like another car with the opposite pricing structure, you are always left with the fact that no matter what, it comparably costs more or you have to give up some things to keep it relative.

The fact that you may have to pay more for a TL to begin with because it includes a bit more compared to some of it's competition is almost meaningless because it's usually cheaper anyway, especially the way most people actually equip an A4, 3 series, or other German competitor, for examples. Rare that people get them totally stripped and actually save that few thousand anyway, think it's about $3k on average. Most get a German competitor with $3k in options if not much else. Now if it would help sell more cars for Acura in general and things along other lines, or why they still don't sell despite being comparably cheaper, that's another discussion.

BEAR-AvHistory

With just in time manufacturing I don’t think it does much if anything to reduce current costs over an optioned car. The robots don’t care what part they are screwing on the car & there are no inventory issues with stockpiled parts. I was amazed at how few humans are in a modern auto plant during some visits.

Also it might be a great leap in faith to assume in theory any savings from building a no option car will be passed along to the consumer & not directly to the bottom line. Just a guess but I wonder how many high end Accord buyers might have stepped up if the TL was a $1000 or so cheaper. Might be a lost Accord sale but the extra money from the TL would still go into Honda’s pocket.

BEAR-AvHistory

My main gripe with the Caddy is the origami fold looking body. If I can't get past the first look I have no real interest in looking any further into a specific car.

The V series is a great world class performer but I don’t think it’s a good plan to spend $60/70K on a body shape that “will grow on me”.

bla8291

I started considering the TL long before I even knew about this forum. I approach it like this - I look at body design, reliability, features, and fuel economy, and then I come up with a list of cars that meet my requirements. I don't give a shit about perception, tier, sales, or popularity, because I'm getting this car for ME, not anyone else.

The 3G TL Type S came out on top for me. The amount of features I get with this sporty, reliable, incredibly good looking car made it become the most valuable one to me. I feel like I got the most bang for my buck. Every time I drive it, I feel great. And you know what? I don't see anyone giving me dirty looks for driving an Acura instead of a Lexus or Mercedes, not that I got the car for any reason like that anyway.

I'm like that for everything I buy when there are lots of options - I don't look at what's popular (except to see WHY it's popular)... I look for what I would want. I guess I'm in the minority in this regard.

Semi-related: most people who aren't familiar with Hondas don't believe me when I tell them that my car is seven years old (8 if we're counting from the build date). The crack on my dashboard is the only thing I can use to start convincing them.

winstrolvtec

Lots of assumptions without knowing the actual breakdown of all the financials either way, however I would assume that more inclusion of options and less build and configuration spreads would reduce those total combined costs vs offering separately and that is one way Acura passes it's savings on to consumers as is platform sharing, along with where and who builds the cars, etc.

Those parts have to be designed on onset for configuration and install, whether optioned or not, also someone has to do the machine programming for all the different types of configurations, the plants, the machines and the facilities would need more capability and that in itself is additional cost. I agree with pricing to what the market will bear but this stuff is another part of the equation. Of course it has to benefit them as well, that's the nature of business, otherwise what is the point but if you can make a comfortable margin without out pricing yourself why would you?

The TL is built and priced for what the majority of the market options for and ends up paying anyway, the difference is they don't necessarily start as low nor go as high because in all reality those variations are few and far between. I can see why they don't want to offer those selections, while I can also see why others want to.

I am sure they considered that $1k, which is why they have a TSX and an Accord in the first place so they still get that sale in most cases because again, you're not getting the totally stripped TL competitor model, if you want cheaper than a TL or most competitors you are looking at different model anyway in either case. Some brands don't have lower positioned models so they need to do the reaching down, even if it only looks good on paper.

Majofo

MandoTL

CoquiTSX

+10

Oswald Vater

Well said - I guess I'm in the minority with you. I have no desire to impress others with what I drive. Bang for the buck has always been my car-buying philosophy and that is why my last 4 cars have been TL's. Hope that can continue with what the TLX will offer.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^That's a great final thought.

I drove my buddy's G37S sedan yesterday...just moved it but man does that car feel nice inside. I'd highly consider Infiniti if I move on from honda producs.

kurtatx

The G37S is short for this world and far better than the new Q50. You'll have to buy used.

Nedmundo

Actually, Autoblog (via Car and Driver) just reported that the G37 will live on through the 2015 model year, with the name changing to Q40. Really weird IMO.

MandoTL

Its like how the Nissan Rogue (Gen 1) will be sticking around in the suv lineup but with a name change well the Gen 2 keeps the Rogue name plate. I thought that was weird but Nissan believes it will attract more buyers with a cheaper alternative than the higher priced Rogue.

So maybe they feel the extra model year will attract buyers in a cheaper Infiniti compared to the Q50.

Nedmundo

I didn't know about the Rougue, and it's interesting that Nissan is doing this. In other markets, I know many manufacturers offer previous generation cars at lower prices, which allows them to compete in a cheaper segment and increase their return on the investment for that earlier generation. But it's rare in the U.S. market, and rarer still for a marque with premium aspirations. I can't think of another example, but maybe it's happened. (I don't count instances like BMW keeping earlier gen M cars, coupes or convertibles available after the new gen sedan is available, because the previous gen cars disappear as soon as the new generation is available in that style, sometimes before.)

In this case, I think it's to offer a less expensive car, but perhaps also to attract buyers who want a more "old school" sport sedan, and are underwhelmed by the Q50. I did read something about this, but can't remember the stated rationale.

kurtatx

All indications point to the G37/Q40 as being short for this world either way.

CaliAtenza

it will probably live on untill Nissan gets the 2.0L Turbo into the Q50...then the G37 will sadly end.