Going to trade in my Lexus IS for the TLX. TLX is going to be a hit.
01-15-2014, 03:25 PM
#121
Instructor
01-15-2014, 03:39 PM
#122
Technically is more Tier 1 than Acura....on model range is on the same current level of Cadillac...so almost there with the big boys but no quite there.
There are no clean defined boundaries when it comes to perception...going back to what we said before, Audi is technically a Tier 1 segment but is not at the same level of MB or even BMW in brand perception.
Infiniti is definitely higher than Acura in brand perception ranking, currently.
Buick is nowadays dangerously closed to Acura.....Buick is what can be considered a semi-premium brand.
There are no clean defined boundaries when it comes to perception...going back to what we said before, Audi is technically a Tier 1 segment but is not at the same level of MB or even BMW in brand perception.
Infiniti is definitely higher than Acura in brand perception ranking, currently.
Buick is nowadays dangerously closed to Acura.....Buick is what can be considered a semi-premium brand.
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-15-2014 at 03:44 PM.
The following users liked this post:
BEAR-AvHistory (01-19-2014)
01-15-2014, 04:01 PM
#123
Wrong, on the brand perception level Lexus is not on the same level as BMW and Mercedes. Not at all. It doesn't even have the model range to compete.
Lexus sales are saved by their SUVs...they established themselves very well with the SUV buyers....historically BMW and MB made mincemeat of Lexus in the entry level and midsize luxury sedan segments (where the IS and GS compete)
An S Class or even a 7 Series will alwyas be generally considered by the general population a superior, more luxurious vehicle than a Lexus LS.
What kind of logic is that??
People do not buy cars only on brand (thankfully!!) As an Acura owner I recognize that BMW is the superior brand as image int he luxury space but in that price segment (mid $40K) I considered the TL to be the better value for my needs
I beg to differt...Infiniti is almost Tier 1, definitely higher than Acura...just look at their product range.
That is correct....luxury cars nowadays are mainly leased and the German brands are much more leased than the Japanese...this is the reason why in the premium segment the old "dead reliable" paradigm and advantage point of the Japanese brands is fading....
Long term reliability unfortunately do not sell anymore in the luxury segment....again, the vast majority of "purchases" nowadays are leases, then the second owner, when the car come out of lease, get some sort of CPO official warranty and...good luck to the third owner!!
This is the current business model in the premium car space....your average Caddy, Audi, BMW or MB owner is not going to stick around the same car for 5 years....so he/she wants all the latest technical gizmos, the bling and the sexy sheetmetal....who cares about the car developing electronic nightmares years down the road....
I assume that in order to save their reliability advantage, Japanese brands, on average, are currently a bit behind German cars on the technology and electronic gizmo department (for example no FI engines, slower automatic transmission with less gears, etc...)...and this, unfortunately is hurting them.....I repeat again, reliability in the premium car segment does not sell that well anymore.
They arent't...if you take the SUVs out of the picture MB and Mercedes literally crush Lexus in sales.
Lexus sales are saved by their SUVs...they established themselves very well with the SUV buyers....historically BMW and MB made mincemeat of Lexus in the entry level and midsize luxury sedan segments (where the IS and GS compete)
An S Class or even a 7 Series will alwyas be generally considered by the general population a superior, more luxurious vehicle than a Lexus LS.
What kind of logic is that??
People do not buy cars only on brand (thankfully!!) As an Acura owner I recognize that BMW is the superior brand as image int he luxury space but in that price segment (mid $40K) I considered the TL to be the better value for my needsI beg to differt...Infiniti is almost Tier 1, definitely higher than Acura...just look at their product range.
That is correct....luxury cars nowadays are mainly leased and the German brands are much more leased than the Japanese...this is the reason why in the premium segment the old "dead reliable" paradigm and advantage point of the Japanese brands is fading....
Long term reliability unfortunately do not sell anymore in the luxury segment....again, the vast majority of "purchases" nowadays are leases, then the second owner, when the car come out of lease, get some sort of CPO official warranty and...good luck to the third owner!!
This is the current business model in the premium car space....your average Caddy, Audi, BMW or MB owner is not going to stick around the same car for 5 years....so he/she wants all the latest technical gizmos, the bling and the sexy sheetmetal....who cares about the car developing electronic nightmares years down the road....
I assume that in order to save their reliability advantage, Japanese brands, on average, are currently a bit behind German cars on the technology and electronic gizmo department (for example no FI engines, slower automatic transmission with less gears, etc...)...and this, unfortunately is hurting them.....I repeat again, reliability in the premium car segment does not sell that well anymore.
They arent't...if you take the SUVs out of the picture MB and Mercedes literally crush Lexus in sales.
But you can't take SUV'S out of the picture. That's a extreme cop out.
BMW and Mercedes have SUV'S as well.
Just like you say 'Leasing' is the new trend.. SUV'S are now a massive part of what makes a Brand. You can't just stick to the 90's logic of 'Sedans only'
You got to count the SUV Sales.....these are expensive pieces of machinery driving around..
BMW/MERCEDES even said they are constantly trying to push away each other AND Lexus in the USA Market.
I notice this prejudice against SUV'S despite these cars carrying the same logos and brand name. These cars are all 40+ machines and they represent the brand that is showing.
SUV'S are becoming more and more popular and is a major major player in the auto market.
01-15-2014, 04:04 PM
#124
I agree with you that a Mercedes S Class will always be considered to be more luxurious than a Lexus.
That is 100% true.
I was simply stating that if you can't count Lexus as a competitor against Mercedes/BMW.. that's a bit unfair.
That is 100% true.
I was simply stating that if you can't count Lexus as a competitor against Mercedes/BMW.. that's a bit unfair.
01-15-2014, 04:30 PM
#125
Touge Chaser
OP: I'm glad you like the new TLX. For me it just doesn't give me a tingle down in my pants. The only number that plays any part of my car buying decision is the price, past that there are certain elements that draw me to a car.
A helpful tip: As an Economist and Statistician in Academia, the resources you are using to cite sales figures, etc. are not considered reputable sources. Although they may contain correct numbers I cannot accept them as valid and credible sources. Since most the companies we are discussing for comparison are public companies I would encourage you take a look at their various public filings along with other credible automotive data and research databases.
You are also placing a lot of emphasis on your assumptions and opinion.
On another note, I wish my mom would help me pay for a car!! I would get a ZR1 or GTR right meow!! Most of her co-workers drive 2 door quasi exotics!!
A helpful tip: As an Economist and Statistician in Academia, the resources you are using to cite sales figures, etc. are not considered reputable sources. Although they may contain correct numbers I cannot accept them as valid and credible sources. Since most the companies we are discussing for comparison are public companies I would encourage you take a look at their various public filings along with other credible automotive data and research databases.
You are also placing a lot of emphasis on your assumptions and opinion.
On another note, I wish my mom would help me pay for a car!! I would get a ZR1 or GTR right meow!! Most of her co-workers drive 2 door quasi exotics!!
The following users liked this post:
Glashub (01-15-2014)
01-15-2014, 04:36 PM
#126
But you can't take SUV'S out of the picture. That's a extreme cop out.
BMW and Mercedes have SUV'S as well.
BMW and Mercedes have SUV'S as well.
For example, Hyundai big SUVs seemed to enjoy early acceptance when going around with a Hyundai car was still considered almost shameful.
I saw way more Sorentos around before Sonatas did become big sellers....
Non unusal to see Chebvy Suburbans or its GMC/Cadillac counterpart owned by wealthy people that would never touch a GM car....
Suburban, Escalade or a big Lexus SUV to go sking, SLK for the wife, 5 Series to go to the office every day and Porsche to have fun....saw that picture (or a variation of that) over and over....
Acura is doing very well and it always did with their SUVs....again, I can personally point you at well to do people (3 cases) that own an MDX but would never own an Acura sedan...they go German route for that.
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-15-2014 at 04:45 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Glashub (01-15-2014)
01-15-2014, 05:06 PM
#127
Believe it or not, people tend to be less brand obsessed when it comes to SUV (especially big SUVs) maybe because of their inherent more practical utilitarian function in their DNA....
For example, Hyundai big SUVs seemed to enjoy early acceptance when going around with a Hyundai car was still considered almost shameful.
I saw way more Sorentos around before Sonatas did become big sellers....
Non unusal to see Chebvy Suburbans or its GMC/Cadillac counterpart owned by wealthy people that would never touch a GM car....
Suburban, Escalade or a big Lexus SUV to go sking, SLK for the wife, 5 Series to go to the office every day and Porsche to have fun....saw that picture (or a variation of that) over and over....
Acura is doing very well and it always did with their SUVs....again, I can personally point you at well to do people (3 cases) that own an MDX but would never own an Acura sedan...they go German route for that.
For example, Hyundai big SUVs seemed to enjoy early acceptance when going around with a Hyundai car was still considered almost shameful.
I saw way more Sorentos around before Sonatas did become big sellers....
Non unusal to see Chebvy Suburbans or its GMC/Cadillac counterpart owned by wealthy people that would never touch a GM car....
Suburban, Escalade or a big Lexus SUV to go sking, SLK for the wife, 5 Series to go to the office every day and Porsche to have fun....saw that picture (or a variation of that) over and over....
Acura is doing very well and it always did with their SUVs....again, I can personally point you at well to do people (3 cases) that own an MDX but would never own an Acura sedan...they go German route for that.
Etc.. 'Nissan 370Z is a cool car for college students' etc..
A lot of college students will pick a 370z over a BMW 5 Series.
Not that many 30+ Adults would.
Your SUV theory is a valid point but brand still matters. What that means is a BMW Suv is still viewed as a more luxurious ride as compared to a GM. I also think that SUVS will continue to matter more and more. This is a major component in the auto industry and it's influence will just continue to grow.
Like it or not,current trends indicate that the SUV Niche is going to become a crucial factor among Auto Brands and the brands who don't adjust to this will be left behind.
I agree with you though that BMW/Mercedes have the edge over Lexus.. I'm simply stating it's not as big of an edge as it was.
01-15-2014, 09:31 PM
#128
Instructor
Technically is more Tier 1 than Acura....on model range is on the same current level of Cadillac...so almost there with the big boys but no quite there.
There are no clean defined boundaries when it comes to perception...going back to what we said before, Audi is technically a Tier 1 segment but is not at the same level of MB or even BMW in brand perception.
Infiniti is definitely higher than Acura in brand perception ranking, currently.
Buick is nowadays dangerously closed to Acura.....Buick is what can be considered a semi-premium brand.
There are no clean defined boundaries when it comes to perception...going back to what we said before, Audi is technically a Tier 1 segment but is not at the same level of MB or even BMW in brand perception.
Infiniti is definitely higher than Acura in brand perception ranking, currently.
Buick is nowadays dangerously closed to Acura.....Buick is what can be considered a semi-premium brand.
They have covered the basics and have an answer to most questions. Like if you want a coupe, they have one. If you are a hardcore RWD guy, they've got you covered, They offer 4 different SUVs/CUVs.
My friend was looking at an A5 but when he saw that he was getting the same performance with stunning looks for $400/month cheaper, he got the G37. If Acura had a coupe, he might have considered but too bad, they don't have one.
The NSX however, is a beauty. I hope the production model is just as gorgeous. The interior is breathtaking and those rims are just killer. I have heard it will be around $130K.
01-15-2014, 10:56 PM
#129
Infiniti is going in the right direction for sure and yes it's higher than Acura because I have seen it being compared to the big boys but never an Acura but it still doesn't have the Tier 1 crown yet but maybe in future. They are doing all the right things.
They have covered the basics and have an answer to most questions. Like if you want a coupe, they have one. If you are a hardcore RWD guy, they've got you covered, They offer 4 different SUVs/CUVs.
My friend was looking at an A5 but when he saw that he was getting the same performance with stunning looks for $400/month cheaper, he got the G37. If Acura had a coupe, he might have considered but too bad, they don't have one.
The NSX however, is a beauty. I hope the production model is just as gorgeous. The interior is breathtaking and those rims are just killer. I have heard it will be around $130K.
They have covered the basics and have an answer to most questions. Like if you want a coupe, they have one. If you are a hardcore RWD guy, they've got you covered, They offer 4 different SUVs/CUVs.
My friend was looking at an A5 but when he saw that he was getting the same performance with stunning looks for $400/month cheaper, he got the G37. If Acura had a coupe, he might have considered but too bad, they don't have one.
The NSX however, is a beauty. I hope the production model is just as gorgeous. The interior is breathtaking and those rims are just killer. I have heard it will be around $130K.
However in the segments where they are present, their products are top notch and head to thead with the best (read G37 , M and FX)
01-15-2014, 11:44 PM
#130
Instructor
Yes, the only reason Infiniti is not a fully fledged Tier 1 brand is because they still lack an S Class/7 Series/A8 competitor and does nto have any big coupe/GT or exotics.
However in the segments where they are present, their products are top notch and head to thead with the best (read G37 , M and FX)
However in the segments where they are present, their products are top notch and head to thead with the best (read G37 , M and FX)
01-16-2014, 01:12 AM
#131
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
The following 3 users liked this post by Majofo:
01-16-2014, 10:20 PM
#132
This thread has been extremely helpful. I am leaving now. I will not be getting a TLX after all.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
The following users liked this post:
UNEVAKNO (01-20-2014)
01-17-2014, 04:21 PM
#135
Moderator
Also I go to a University with over 20,000 students.
Nobody thinks that a Lexus is a 'expensive Toyota'.
Nobody.
Actually most of these students don't even know Infiniti is the Luxury Brand of Nissan.
Or that Acura is the luxury brand of Honda.
They view them as separate entities.
Why do their opinions matter? Because they are the ones who tell their Mommys and Daddys what to get them.
And it still goes like this:
Lexus/BMW/Mercedes
Acura/Infiniti/Audi/
Volvo/Cad/
Once again.. the actual rankings of QUALITY might not be like this.. but sales indicate it is.
Nobody thinks that a Lexus is a 'expensive Toyota'.
Nobody.
Actually most of these students don't even know Infiniti is the Luxury Brand of Nissan.
Or that Acura is the luxury brand of Honda.
They view them as separate entities.
Why do their opinions matter? Because they are the ones who tell their Mommys and Daddys what to get them.
And it still goes like this:
Lexus/BMW/Mercedes
Acura/Infiniti/Audi/
Volvo/Cad/
Once again.. the actual rankings of QUALITY might not be like this.. but sales indicate it is.
You surveyed all 20,000 students?! Awesome! How about posting up the data?
01-19-2014, 09:50 AM
#136
Burning Brakes
This thread has been extremely helpful. I am leaving now. I will not be getting a TLX after all.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
A Lexus RX is not an SUV, it's a cross-over. A Navigator, GX, Expedition, MDX/Pilot, Q; the 13 mpg behemoths, I would classify as SUVs.
As soon as gas blips, it's gonna be all about the hybrid again.
01-19-2014, 11:32 AM
#137
Advanced
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
If you mean CUV(more compact SUV), then you are correct.
The smartest(most profitable) car manufacturer in the world-Porsche-is coming out with their all new version to this segment this year, the Macan.
Early indications have shown that they will sell out all 50,0000 units for 2015 and rumours have it they already are talking about increasing that to 80K units for the first year run due to demand. That will increase Porsche sales by at least 50% with just this one model! Thousands have already put down deposits on a car they have not driven yet but only seen in pictures. It's a beauty, no doubt, and coupled with the right specs and dimensions that everyone seems to be going towards these days, Porsche has hit a homerun it seems.
They got my deposit. For disclosure too, I've owned many performance sedans and sport coupes in the past from TL to M3.
01-19-2014, 12:32 PM
#138
Racer
Great posts. I will also like to add that perception varies depending on areas and age. But that should be common sense.
Etc.. 'Nissan 370Z is a cool car for college students' etc..
A lot of college students will pick a 370z over a BMW 5 Series.
Not that many 30+ Adults would.
Your SUV theory is a valid point but brand still matters. What that means is a BMW Suv is still viewed as a more luxurious ride as compared to a GM. I also think that SUVS will continue to matter more and more. This is a major component in the auto industry and it's influence will just continue to grow.
Like it or not,current trends indicate that the SUV Niche is going to become a crucial factor among Auto Brands and the brands who don't adjust to this will be left behind.
I agree with you though that BMW/Mercedes have the edge over Lexus.. I'm simply stating it's not as big of an edge as it was.
Etc.. 'Nissan 370Z is a cool car for college students' etc..
A lot of college students will pick a 370z over a BMW 5 Series.
Not that many 30+ Adults would.
Your SUV theory is a valid point but brand still matters. What that means is a BMW Suv is still viewed as a more luxurious ride as compared to a GM. I also think that SUVS will continue to matter more and more. This is a major component in the auto industry and it's influence will just continue to grow.
Like it or not,current trends indicate that the SUV Niche is going to become a crucial factor among Auto Brands and the brands who don't adjust to this will be left behind.
I agree with you though that BMW/Mercedes have the edge over Lexus.. I'm simply stating it's not as big of an edge as it was.
Of course a college student would prefer a 370z over a 5 series, but that isn't the target demographic for either of those cars. Not sure why you keep using your schools population as a sample for the industries trends.
The following users liked this post:
ttribe (01-19-2014)
The following users liked this post:
UNEVAKNO (01-20-2014)
01-19-2014, 01:14 PM
#140
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Agree when buying an SUV to be an SUV brand does not matter as much as the uses its being bought for. I got the Expedition Limited Extended Length because 1st it was the biggest moving box (131cuft) 2nd with a good off road 4X4 system (9000lb tow) & 3rd excellent creature comforts (A/C seats etc) that was available.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
01-19-2014, 04:05 PM
#141
Moderator
The following users liked this post:
2011TL (01-20-2014)
01-20-2014, 12:29 AM
#142
01-20-2014, 04:40 AM
#143
This thread has been extremely helpful. I am leaving now. I will not be getting a TLX after all.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
I will like to leave with the following statement in regards to Saturno.
I know you might not like this hear this, but all Auto Market analysis indicate that SUVS is a very stable part of the Auto Industry right now. Brands do matter.
I know they might not MATTER as MUCH as say Sedans.. but it's rapidly getting there.
Why is there a Lexus SUV? Why not just make more Toyota SUVS? Because the Lexus Brand SUV is selling. There is a big market for Luxury SUVS. It is the new money maker and it is also brand driven.
BMW and Mercedes would never have came out with SUVS if it wasn't Brand Driven.
I get what you are saying in regards to how 'rich people' might get a SUV, a Sedan, and a Weekend car. But there are a lot of younger people who are using a SUV as a primary source of transportation. Just looking around at my University parking lots.. proves this.
My friend is getting a SUV and he is going for a BMW X5 or a Lexus RX. I asked him 'why not a GM' and he's like 'because I want a Beemer or Lexus'.
The bottom line is this..there is a reason a lot of these people are buying Lexus RX'S instead of their inferior Toyota counterparts..because it's more 'luxurious'.
Same with Acura MDX and their inferior Honda counterparts. Because the MDX is more 'luxurious' and it's flat out better.(Than most in it's segment I might add).
Suvs are here to stay. It's not going to go ahead. I think they will actually over take sedans in another 10 years and the forums will be all about them.
01-20-2014, 10:01 AM
#144
By numbers, I'm talking about HP...performance.
Could give a fark about the other "numbers" you are referring to (i.e. sales figures). I could care less what the general public as per your comment drives. We'll see how the TLX does but again, this is contingent on a few things: performance numbers, MSRP, and (IMO a big one), what it finally looks like.
Honda loves to "nerf" their concepts/prototypes before it hits the mass-production conveyor belt.
Could give a fark about the other "numbers" you are referring to (i.e. sales figures). I could care less what the general public as per your comment drives. We'll see how the TLX does but again, this is contingent on a few things: performance numbers, MSRP, and (IMO a big one), what it finally looks like.
Honda loves to "nerf" their concepts/prototypes before it hits the mass-production conveyor belt.
01-20-2014, 11:25 AM
#145
Agree when buying an SUV to be an SUV brand does not matter as much as the uses its being bought for. I got the Expedition Limited Extended Length because 1st it was the biggest moving box (131cuft) 2nd with a good off road 4X4 system (9000lb tow) & 3rd excellent creature comforts (A/C seats etc) that was available.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
I was saying Lexus/BMW/MERCEDES is all competitive with each other in sales, and he said 'Well Sedan wise BMW/Mercedes beat Lexus, it's only because of the RX'
So my point is that in the auto market today.. these cars like the RX 350'S is every bit as important as sedans and they damn sure count when factoring in the year end luxury sales.
That's just life.
If people didn't care about Luxury SUV Cross Over brands...............none of these Luxury Brands will tap into the segment as hard as they did. People care and that's why all these brands exist.
01-20-2014, 11:26 AM
#146
If you mean CUV(more compact SUV), then you are correct.
The smartest(most profitable) car manufacturer in the world-Porsche-is coming out with their all new version to this segment this year, the Macan.
Early indications have shown that they will sell out all 50,0000 units for 2015 and rumours have it they already are talking about increasing that to 80K units for the first year run due to demand. That will increase Porsche sales by at least 50% with just this one model! Thousands have already put down deposits on a car they have not driven yet but only seen in pictures. It's a beauty, no doubt, and coupled with the right specs and dimensions that everyone seems to be going towards these days, Porsche has hit a homerun it seems.
They got my deposit. For disclosure too, I've owned many performance sedans and sport coupes in the past from TL to M3.
The smartest(most profitable) car manufacturer in the world-Porsche-is coming out with their all new version to this segment this year, the Macan.
Early indications have shown that they will sell out all 50,0000 units for 2015 and rumours have it they already are talking about increasing that to 80K units for the first year run due to demand. That will increase Porsche sales by at least 50% with just this one model! Thousands have already put down deposits on a car they have not driven yet but only seen in pictures. It's a beauty, no doubt, and coupled with the right specs and dimensions that everyone seems to be going towards these days, Porsche has hit a homerun it seems.
They got my deposit. For disclosure too, I've owned many performance sedans and sport coupes in the past from TL to M3.
I was saying Lexus/BMW/MERCEDES is all competitive with each other in sales, and he said 'Well Sedan wise BMW/Mercedes beat Lexus, it's only because of the RX'
So my point is that in the auto market today.. these cars like the RX 350'S is every bit as important as sedans and they damn sure count when factoring in the year end luxury sales.
That's just life.
If people didn't care about Luxury SUV Cross Over brands...............none of these Luxury Brands will tap into the segment as hard as they did. People care and that's why all these brands exist.
01-20-2014, 11:27 AM
#147
Agree when buying an SUV to be an SUV brand does not matter as much as the uses its being bought for. I got the Expedition Limited Extended Length because 1st it was the biggest moving box (131cuft) 2nd with a good off road 4X4 system (9000lb tow) & 3rd excellent creature comforts (A/C seats etc) that was available.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
I think vehicles like the Lexus RX & BMW X3 are outliers & more station wagon like in functionally. We used to X3 for light duty moving stuff & dogs around along with Costco runs.
If people didn't care about brand.. there won't be SO MANY Suv Type cars in the luxury market. People care and sales prove it.
If they don't care.. why are they getting the RX,X3/X5,MDX,INFINITI,AUDI SUVS/CROSS OVERS? They might not care AS MUCH as sedans but sales indicate they still care.
01-20-2014, 01:52 PM
#148
5th Gear
Join Date: Dec 2009
Age: 44
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I certainly hope it is a hit as Acura needs it. The MDX is their one and only bread winner IMO.
Love the sides and the back (except for no visible exhaust tips). The front is meh. I really don't like Acura's application of LED headlights. To each their own though.
I got tired of waiting for the 5th gen to come out so I got rid of the 4G TL and got a BMW. I don't think I will have buyers remorse but I do miss certain aspects of the TL.
Love the sides and the back (except for no visible exhaust tips). The front is meh. I really don't like Acura's application of LED headlights. To each their own though.
I got tired of waiting for the 5th gen to come out so I got rid of the 4G TL and got a BMW. I don't think I will have buyers remorse but I do miss certain aspects of the TL.
01-20-2014, 05:28 PM
#149
Suzuka Master
I certainly hope it is a hit as Acura needs it. The MDX is their one and only bread winner IMO.
Love the sides and the back (except for no visible exhaust tips). The front is meh. I really don't like Acura's application of LED headlights. To each their own though.
I got tired of waiting for the 5th gen to come out so I got rid of the 4G TL and got a BMW. I don't think I will have buyers remorse but I do miss certain aspects of the TL.
Love the sides and the back (except for no visible exhaust tips). The front is meh. I really don't like Acura's application of LED headlights. To each their own though.
I got tired of waiting for the 5th gen to come out so I got rid of the 4G TL and got a BMW. I don't think I will have buyers remorse but I do miss certain aspects of the TL.
01-21-2014, 12:12 PM
#150
Senior Moderator
The following users liked this post:
JT4 (01-22-2014)
01-21-2014, 12:17 PM
#151
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
01-22-2014, 03:04 PM
#153
Proud Acura Owner
I was given a Lexus IS this year. I used to drive a 2008 Acura TL and thought this was going to be the end of my Acura Journey.
After looking at the TLX, I am definitely going to be trading in my IS for the car the moment it comes out. My Mom will spot me the rest of the money needed.
This TLX is going to do very well and it will be like the old days when the only competition in it's segment for the TL will be the BMW 3.
Let's take a closer look at the TLX'S competitors before you bash it.
Q50-Basically a more expensive G37. It's like if Acura decides to rise the price of the 4G TL and call it a 'TLX'. Who the Hell will want that?
Lexus IS- Giant fish net at the front. We are not living under water. Why do we need to catch fish? That design is going to age very badly. We are not fishermen. We are drivers.
Audi A4. My Mom drove a 2011 Audi A4. It had the worst oil consumption issue ever. They said it's 'all good' for 2014, but we all know they are lying. Good luck with your Audi leaking oil every 2k miles by 2015. Have fun topping it off every month.
Cadillac ATS- I'm not saying it might break. I'm saying right now it WILL break. You will be driving a broken down American Box by mid 2015. After 30,000 Miles, it will fall apart on the road and if you are stuck in a wilderness area you will probably get eaten by wolves.
Volvo S60- Good looking car, but name is like woman's vagina.
BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class- Name value, but looking duller and duller over the years.
After looking at the TLX, I am definitely going to be trading in my IS for the car the moment it comes out. My Mom will spot me the rest of the money needed.
This TLX is going to do very well and it will be like the old days when the only competition in it's segment for the TL will be the BMW 3.
Let's take a closer look at the TLX'S competitors before you bash it.
Q50-Basically a more expensive G37. It's like if Acura decides to rise the price of the 4G TL and call it a 'TLX'. Who the Hell will want that?
Lexus IS- Giant fish net at the front. We are not living under water. Why do we need to catch fish? That design is going to age very badly. We are not fishermen. We are drivers.
Audi A4. My Mom drove a 2011 Audi A4. It had the worst oil consumption issue ever. They said it's 'all good' for 2014, but we all know they are lying. Good luck with your Audi leaking oil every 2k miles by 2015. Have fun topping it off every month.
Cadillac ATS- I'm not saying it might break. I'm saying right now it WILL break. You will be driving a broken down American Box by mid 2015. After 30,000 Miles, it will fall apart on the road and if you are stuck in a wilderness area you will probably get eaten by wolves.
Volvo S60- Good looking car, but name is like woman's vagina.
BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class- Name value, but looking duller and duller over the years.
01-22-2014, 03:06 PM
#154
Proud Acura Owner
Wow...interesting thread.
Q50 is the G37...not an upgraded car. So, difference. It is just a car model that got renamed by Nissan/Infiniti.
Secondly, while you listed an interesting list of the "competition", I think we need acknowledge that Acura no longer competes against BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi. The TLX definitely a nice car and refreshing to see that Honda did not go backwards IMO...BUT, it is more apt to be against Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, and Volvo. To include the German Big 3 is doing their cars a disservice.
Head over to the TL thread in Automotive News to get more insight if you wish.
Q50 is the G37...not an upgraded car. So, difference. It is just a car model that got renamed by Nissan/Infiniti.
Secondly, while you listed an interesting list of the "competition", I think we need acknowledge that Acura no longer competes against BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi. The TLX definitely a nice car and refreshing to see that Honda did not go backwards IMO...BUT, it is more apt to be against Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, and Volvo. To include the German Big 3 is doing their cars a disservice.
Head over to the TL thread in Automotive News to get more insight if you wish.
comparing to the Germans is a disservice? what is that supposed to mean? the German "LUXURY" cars don't even have HIDs and "real" leather standard! you must pay for a lighting and leather package SEPERATELY.. To me up to the mid-level models (E-Class, 5-Series), Acura competes pretty well with the RLX. Anthing past that, we can't compare. and for entry level? A 3 Series and C-class is the biggest waste of money for me. I'd rather get a loaded v6 TSX right now, or a mid-level TL.
01-22-2014, 03:08 PM
#155
Proud Acura Owner
I'm still mad at Acura for removing the standard HIDs from the base RDX.. the old one had them standard. I know this is a small issue, but it would be one more advantage over the competition.
01-22-2014, 03:13 PM
#156
Proud Acura Owner
Just need to add my input here to some of the posts.. The "ELITE" luxury brands are still BMW, MB, and Audi to me.. Lexus/Infiniti/Acura are the Tier 2. I don't care about the LS or other higher level Lexus or Infiniti models, I am saying overall brand perception. But in my opinion, Acura gives the most value out of all the luxury brands in standard features on the models. You may get more bells and whistles with Audi, Benz, BMW, etc, but a 40K TL model is much better than a base or slightly upgraded 3-Series or C-Class.
01-25-2014, 01:28 PM
#158
Azine Jabroni
The following users liked this post:
BEAR-AvHistory (01-25-2014)
01-25-2014, 02:45 PM
#159
Grandpa
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia, Besieged
Age: 68
Posts: 7,596
Received 2,609 Likes
on
1,475 Posts
Just a guess but he probably thought he was coming to talk about cars and was completely surprised that verbal assaults were a part of the process.
It's a little rough around here sometimes. Even the moderators are a little rough.
So far, for me, the good guys more than make up for the bad. :-)
I think that some people looking for certain features would consider that they compete. But it's interesting that Honda and Acura executives do not mind describing the Acura brand as "near luxury" or "reasonable luxury" and "reasonable performance."
And remember that where the RLX is manufactured, it's still called a Honda.
I'm not sure how thoroughly I agree with you, but, basically, I do agree.
Lexus is a bigger company with a bigger presence. They market across more boundaries and at more price points, they are successful and have money to spend on making sure they remain successful.
By contrast, to quote Alex Dykes, Acura seems "peculiar." :-)
Not sure where I'll go after the RLX, but unless they are so very successful with the TLX that they have the money to develop a new tier...it's entirely possible that after the RLX my next car will not be a Honda.
It's a little rough around here sometimes. Even the moderators are a little rough.
So far, for me, the good guys more than make up for the bad. :-)
And remember that where the RLX is manufactured, it's still called a Honda.
Yet the Lexus tiers are VERY competitive against BMW and they are all the same price as well.
Lexus is a bigger company with a bigger presence. They market across more boundaries and at more price points, they are successful and have money to spend on making sure they remain successful.
By contrast, to quote Alex Dykes, Acura seems "peculiar." :-)
Not sure where I'll go after the RLX, but unless they are so very successful with the TLX that they have the money to develop a new tier...it's entirely possible that after the RLX my next car will not be a Honda.
01-25-2014, 02:48 PM
#160
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
comparing to the Germans is a disservice? what is that supposed to mean? the German "LUXURY" cars don't even have HIDs and "real" leather standard! you must pay for a lighting and leather package SEPERATELY.. To me up to the mid-level models (E-Class, 5-Series), Acura competes pretty well with the RLX. Anthing past that, we can't compare. and for entry level? A 3 Series and C-class is the biggest waste of money for me. I'd rather get a loaded v6 TSX right now, or a mid-level TL.
If Acura optioned them instead of packing them in a one size fits all pricing strategy a buyer could save a few thousand off MSRP if they were not important to them.
Thing is Acura has continued to move slowly toward Ala Carte pricing. My 3G had a choice of 6MT or 5AT base plus Nav or no Nav & Summer tires or no Summer tires, end of option list. Look a the list of choices "options really" in the current price list.
You might not like the Germans but enough people to make them major players with a number of Tier 1 cars available.
Acura Brand 165K with 24K TL's
BMW brand 309K with 120K 3 series
MB Brand 295K with 88K C class not counting the sales of CL - CLA - CLK & CLS By the way the CLA sold 14K in just 4 months
BTW I don't think of their entry level cars as either Tier 1 or Luxury anymore than I think of Acura TL as a luxury car. They are nice premium cars & in the case of the Germans made by a Tier 1 manufacturer.
Its really hard to think of a car as being a luxury model when it costs less than a full sized pickup truck or SUV & does not have all the features of either.