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In addition to that, these are test numbers for the RWD version...we all know that BMW xDrive models are always able to shave few tenths compared to their RWD counterparts....
Sub 5 sec 0-60 ain't going to cut it for the potential future Type S.
The Twin Trubo G70 did 0-60 in 4.4 and still almost appeared slow...the Bimmer humiliate the G70 to 150 by F I V E seconds.
The M340i is rated at 382 HP....we all know it's BS, probably closer to 420...
Hmmm....actually maybe electric is the way to go with the Model 3 as the benchmark.
C/D TEST RESULTS Zero to 60 mph: 3.5 sec Zero to 100 mph: 8.9 sec Zero to 130 mph: 17.1 sec Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.4 sec Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.0 sec Standing ¼-mile: 12.1 sec @ 114 mph Top speed (governor limited): 153 mph Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g
On BMW almost everything is an option. This car will top 70K comparably loaded to a Type S. Give me a Type S with around a 5 second 0-60 at right around 50k or less with some discounts and I could care less about the other 2 seconds. If you want to race everywhere pay a lot for maintenance then get an M series. I don't think the Type S is going to be that type of car. It will be a bit faster than the standard variant, brake better, look better and handle better (at a cost of feeling more bumps in the road). I don't in any way think it will be comparable to your "benchmark" performance wise or cost wise. People buying that car are unlikely to be the target customer for Acura's Type S. Don't forget that most Acura models will have a Type S variant soon enough so its not just the TLX.
On BMW almost everything is an option. This car will top 70K comparably loaded to a Type S. Give me a Type S with around a 5 second 0-60 at right around 50k or less with some discounts and I could care less about the other 2 seconds. If you want to race everywhere pay a lot for maintenance then get an M series. I don't think the Type S is going to be that type of car. It will be a bit faster than the standard variant, brake better, look better and handle better (at a cost of feeling more bumps in the road). I don't in any way think it will be comparable to your "benchmark" performance wise or cost wise. People buying that car are unlikely to be the target customer for Acura's Type S. Don't forget that most Acura models will have a Type S variant soon enough so its not just the TLX.
If not the M-lite, AMG-lite, and Audi S crowd, then who exactly is the target customer for the Type-S?
If not the M-lite, AMG-lite, and Audi S crowd, then who exactly is the target customer for the Type-S?
Most likely people that want more performance than the standard model, sportier look, reasonable cost to purchase with a lot of standard features, low cost of ownership (service/repairs), long term reliability and not massive depreciation after the warranty runs out. Pretty much the same reason the original Type S was popular and held its value incredibly well even to this day.
Most likely people that want more performance than the standard model, sportier look, reasonable cost to purchase with a lot of standard features, low cost of ownership (service/repairs), long term reliability and not massive depreciation after the warranty runs out. Pretty much the same reason the original Type S was popular and held its value incredibly well even to this day.
If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any incremental sales for the Type-S because all of it would come from cannibalization of the regular model. Sure the Type-S will have a higher profit margin, but for there to be a viable business case to make the Type-S, there has to be some conquest sales in there from somewhere. God knows that the Type-S can't be billed as a loss-leader / halo model.
You mention the original Type-S, but that car was aimed squarely at competing with the mid-trim Germans (and G35). It competed with the 335i, C350, and A4 3.2. Why would it be any different today?
On BMW almost everything is an option. This car will top 70K comparably loaded to a Type S. Give me a Type S with around a 5 second 0-60 at right around 50k or less with some discounts and I could care less about the other 2 seconds. If you want to race everywhere pay a lot for maintenance then get an M series. I don't think the Type S is going to be that type of car. It will be a bit faster than the standard variant, brake better, look better and handle better (at a cost of feeling more bumps in the road). I don't in any way think it will be comparable to your "benchmark" performance wise or cost wise. People buying that car are unlikely to be the target customer for Acura's Type S. Don't forget that most Acura models will have a Type S variant soon enough so its not just the TLX.
Most likely people that want more performance than the standard model, sportier look, reasonable cost to purchase with a lot of standard features, low cost of ownership (service/repairs), long term reliability and not massive depreciation after the warranty runs out. Pretty much the same reason the original Type S was popular and held its value incredibly well even to this day.
The Type S was competitive to the 330i of that era (which was the highest non M3 3 Series offering)...a "Type S" badge today in a car not capable of getting close to the M-Lite, AMG-lite and Audi S crowd it would be a laughing stock...if Acura cannot do it it should not use the special badge.
If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any incremental sales for the Type-S because all of it would come from cannibalization of the regular model. Sure the Type-S will have a higher profit margin, but for there to be a viable business case to make the Type-S, there has to be some conquest sales in there from somewhere. God knows that the Type-S can't be billed as a loss-leader / halo model.
You mention the original Type-S, but that car was aimed squarely at competing with the mid-trim Germans (and G35). It competed with the 335i, C350, and A4 3.2. Why would it be any different today?
If anything it may bring a few more over to Acura but it will certainly take away some non type S Acura sales. There are a lot of people that just don't want German cars for the reasons I stated. My own opinion is that even at a 6K bump up in price from the next tier TLX that difference will be too much for many Acura buyers. The A-Spec model most likely takes away from the non-A-Spec more than from other makes of cars. Anyway if people are expecting close to 3 second 0-60 times then it's 95% chance they will be very disappointed.
I think the take rate on the Type S was somewhere around 3 to 5% of total TL sales and it was only like 4k over the base model back then. Acura makes some of the best, reliable and least depreciating SUV's yet people buy Audi and BMW suvs still like crazy, I just attributed it to them having money to burn.
I guess time will tell but I expect modest HP increase around 50 extra over the next best TLX variant. I guess we will know in a few months if it's closer to a bumped up TLX or in the M series performance class.
On BMW almost everything is an option. This car will top 70K comparably loaded to a Type S. Give me a Type S with around a 5 second 0-60 at right around 50k or less with some discounts and I could care less about the other 2 seconds. If you want to race everywhere pay a lot for maintenance then get an M series. I don't think the Type S is going to be that type of car. It will be a bit faster than the standard variant, brake better, look better and handle better (at a cost of feeling more bumps in the road). I don't in any way think it will be comparable to your "benchmark" performance wise or cost wise. People buying that car are unlikely to be the target customer for Acura's Type S. Don't forget that most Acura models will have a Type S variant soon enough so its not just the TLX.
Agree they are not cheap but Acura packs its "options" into a few set units like Advance etc BMW lets you but pretty much buy what item you want. It also has groups that offer better prices then the same items ala carte
First off the car does not compete with the TLX. You might say the 330 does at the price level the 330 starts around $40,000, but generally people shopping the BMW are not shopping TLX. The are usually shopping the lower models of AUDI, Mercedes & Lexus. The M340 around $54,000. If you try to equate look at all the stuff you get in the TLX for X$ compared to an M340 try equating all the stuff you get in an Accord for X$ compared to a TLX.
Cars are valued like it or not by what people will pay for them not on the individual electronics etc which is continuing to level out in availability across all brand & models within brands. Bob Lutz predicted this about 10 years ago & said car will be differentiated by brand not content. You really think a FORD GT has $500,000 worth of content or a Ferrari 488GTB $300,000 when a $72,000 Camaro can beat both around the VIR 4.1 mile Grand Course?
About $60,000MSRP (which nobody pays) will buy a very nicely equipped M340. !9" Bi-Color wheels with get flat performance tires & space saver spare, real time adjustable suspension, black open pore oak trim, Head-up Display, Heated front seats, Heated Steering Wheel, Park distance control, ambient lighting, Harman Kardon® surround sound system with 464-watts. This 16-speaker sound system.
Base car @ $54,000 comes with 382 BHP engine, 8ZF, LSD, M-Sport Brakes (blue) M-Sport Suspension, Variable sport steering, LED Headlights with Cornering Lights, M rear Spoiler,
14-way power front sport seats; including 4-way power lumbar support, 2-way power side bolsters, 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; driver memory for exterior mirrors and seat positions, Live flat screen Cockpit Professional features a 12.3" instrument cluster, and 10.25" touch screen central information display, 20 GB of multimedia storage, Navigation, Bluetooth, Advanced Vehicle & Key Memory includes most recently used climate-control temperature and air-distribution settings; exterior mirror and power seat settings; audio tone settings and radio presets; central-locking preferences; and lighting preferences,
Rain-sensing windshield wipers with adjustable speed and automatic headlight control, Comfort Access keyless entry with multi-function remote control including hands-free trunk-lid opening, Universal garage-door opener, Adaptive Brakelights, BMW's Active Protection System detects imminent accidents, then prepares by automatically pretensioning safety belts, closing windows and moonroof, and activating post-crash braking; includes Fatigue and Focus Alert feature.
No charge 3 year 36,000 mile maintenance.
Engine Oil
Engine Filter
Brake Fluid
Cabin Micro Filter(s)
Engine Air Filter(s)
Spark Plugs
Remote Control/Key Battery
Vehicle Check
Warranty 4 years or 50,000 miles.
The M340 is a Premium Level car manufactured by a luxury car manufacture & gets more then a little image upgrade from the association
Cars are valued like it or not by what people will pay for them not on the individual electronics etc which is continuing to level out in availability across all brand & models within brands. Bob Lutz predicted this about 10 years ago & said car will be differentiated by brand not content. You really think a FORD GT has $500,000 worth of content or a Ferrari 488GTB $300,000 when a $72,000 Camaro can beat both around the VIR 4.1 mile Grand Course?
Exactly.....my CTS-V is not way worth over 25 grand more (base MSRP vs base MSRP) than a Camaro ZL1 which is identical (chassis, suspension, engine) and actually has a better, faster 10 speed transmission...if I sum up all the difference in content and the nicer interior appointments, stereo, etc...the CTS-V should cost 5-6 grand more max...and I'm being generous...the rest is brand recognition and different target demographics.
Base car @ $54,000 comes with at least 420-430 BHP engine, 8ZF, LSD, M-Sport Brakes (blue) M-Sport Suspension, Variable sport steering, LED Headlights with Cornering Lights, M rear Spoiler,
Originally Posted by Seven11
Nope, not a fluke and not a special car for testing. I did 3.79 seconds to 60mph with the 1 foot roll out. 4.02 without roll out. I will get it into the 3s without the 1 foot roll out.
I am pretty sure Magazines test acceleration with the 1 foot roll out.
here is my proof. I have a RWD M340i and i am on Pirelli Run-Flats. If i had the Michelins, I would already be in the 3.70 with the 1 foot roll out and 3.9x without rollout.
I posted: This is correct & why its hard to beat a magazines 0-60 time. Also BMW lists 4.1 as it standard benchmark for the car. Ties into the 4.02 you listed.
FWIW Michelin makes both get flat & run flat tires summer tires for the M340. The Pirelli Run-Flats are all season performance tires. Your choice when ordering. Dealers generally stock All season RFT.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-24-2019 at 06:09 AM.
I think the take rate on the Type S was somewhere around 3 to 5% of total TL sales and it was only like 4k over the base model back then. Acura makes some of the best, reliable and least depreciating SUV's yet people buy Audi and BMW suvs still like crazy, I just attributed it to them having money to burn.
When you're spending that kind of money the badge matters to some people.
Acura has said its going back to it's roots. The type S was not a barn burner or near M class performance or cost. I have had both new BMW and Audi's and couldn't unload the last two fast enough. The only BMW I had that was decent was years back when they were a small car manufacturer. and not a dime a dozen on the road. I had BMW throw in maintenance. Amounted to 3 oil changes that took 2 to 4 hours of wait time (Acura was under 40 a change so a whopping 120 in "savings" over 3 years(bmw charges a higher rate when not "free", worthless in the grand scheme of things. So many bmw items were one off options or you had to order an expensive package to get the one option you wanted. As a result I had to special order the car from germany to get many relatively common features the acura had stock at the time (with little if any discount from BMW for the items) and then wait a month to get it off the boat. Oh, and when I went to trade in my audi which was near mint they offered less than half of what I sold it on craigs list in one day which added up to about 7K additional. That experience turned me off of the brand along with multiple mechanical issues the first 18 months (6 unscheduled visits for issues and then the loaner car was ol a chevy lumina). Did the car drive well when running? Yes. Would I buy another, never.
The type S on the other had cost very little to maintain, looked great, great engine trans pairing, nice type S add ones, never broke and after 10 years got fantastic dealer trade in who had the car sold in 3 days from me doping it off. Fast enough and plenty of features over the standard model at nominal cost. Would that type of car sell well today? We will see. I just think people thinking this will be a huge departure from previous type S models have expectations to high. Put them in a loaded M class or Audi and it will possibly languish on lots. If expectations are for some super tlx then the RDX and MDX type S will be competing with Porsche Macon and Cayanne. Seems unlikely. I expect some crossover but those shopping M series and Porsche are not your typical Acura buyers that worry about cost of ownership.Think Lexus and Infinity.
The type S on the other had cost very little to maintain, looked great, great engine trans pairing, nice type S add ones, never broke and after 10 years got fantastic dealer trade in who had the car sold in 3 days from me doping it off. Fast enough and plenty of features over the standard model at nominal cost. Would that type of car sell well today? We will see. I just think people thinking this will be a huge departure from previous type S models have expectations to high. Put them in a loaded M class or Audi and it will possibly languish on lots. If expectations are for some super tlx then the RDX and MDX type S will be competing with Porsche Macon and Cayanne. Seems unlikely. I expect some crossover but those shopping M series and Porsche are not your typical Acura buyers that worry about cost of ownership.Think Lexus and Infinity.
Originally when the TLX came out I didn't consider it an option because I'm a die hard manual fan and I think a sporty drive includes that.
The S4 with the (S isn't lite, it was the OG of their sport line up...how dare you! ) dual clutch has changed my mind somewhat because
let's face it...that kind of performance while also being able to be lazy and sit in traffic is not something you can pretend to not appreciate even
if you're a purist. With that said...if I didn't have 2 other manual vehicles to drive my fun car would have to be stick.
All that to say that now that I can accept a GOOD automatic transmission...the Aspec and invariably the Type S are solid cars...fast and impressive
and handle well and all the electronics. My only gripe about them is the same one I have about all the other brands...it seems their primary focus is
entertainment and driving is secondary. Cars today are appliances and that part...hurts my heart.
Exactly.....my CTS-V is not way worth over 25 grand more (base MSRP vs base MSRP) than a Camaro ZL1 which is identical (chassis, suspension, engine) and actually has a better, faster 10 speed transmission...if I sum up all the difference in content and the nicer interior appointments, stereo, etc...the CTS-V should cost 5-6 grand more max...and I'm being generous...the rest is brand recognition and different target demographics.
Fixed that for you!
Speaking of...saw a Thunder Grey (assuming the V3 kept the same color) yesterday on the highway cruising...guy was wearing a suit.
I kept thinking he might slide out a Walter PPK with a silencer on it to assassinate me or something. Made me miss my Wagon for the first
time in a while. What a bad motherfucker...I just can't stomach the sticker price...
I don't think it's possible for Acura to succeed with a new Type S and this thread proves why.
There will be guys like 4G (and me) who expect the Type S to be a competitor to the BMW M and MB AMG. But I highly doubt Acura has the technical capability or interest in competing in this ultra-high performance luxury space. The BMW M is essentially the pinnacle of ultimate driving machines (no one can or would even argue that), so Acura waltzing into the fray with a Type S is like the old knife into a gun fight adage. There may be some who cite Acura race cars as having the prowess to do this, but besides the NSX, Acura has never brought any real racing pedigree to the streets. Besides, if they did, you know as well as I that Type S with the 3.0TT that some of you are speculating will run more than $50k. There's no way it can't. Acura knows that is a tiny market with few sales and little profit.
There will be guys like jhb31 who expect the Type S to be some bump up from the regular TLX that won't appease the guys above. Maybe an Aspec appearance package with Advance level amenities. There would be guys (like me) who might spring for that depending on pricing and performance, because like jhb31, I've owned Euros* and will never, ever go back. But that car won't even make it into magazine comparo showdowns with any of the other BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis high performance offerings. If Acura's goal with the Type S is 0-60 in about 5 seconds for about $50k, they better hope there are no Subaru dealers nearby, because a loaded STI runs 0-60 in about 5 seconds for about $40k, sacrificing some fit and finish for performance.
Whatever Acura builds, this Type S will be released into a field of established leaders that either cost less or perform better. They can't win.
*If you care: I drove an Audi A4 and rode a BMW K1200LT motorrad. I loved both, but both required costly maintenance and thousands of dollars in repairs (A4: $1800 control arms/tie rods, $900 airbag sensor and $1200 CV axles and BMW: $2800 transmission replacement because a rear seal failure allowed engine and tranny oil to mix - a common K engine issue of that era). I traded both in on the same day for my WRX and stuck to Asians ever since, which have always treated me well, and is why I was so disappointed in my TLX unreliability and vibration.
When you're spending that kind of money the badge matters to some people.
Originally Posted by jhb31 I just attributed it to them having money to burn.
Same can be said by a Civic owner spending $22,000 for his new car vs a $45,000 Acura TLX owner. Is the TLX worth twice what the Civic is?
As people move up on their jobs more money is made available to spend so spending goes up. That's why some people live in 5,000 Sq Ft houses on two acres while others just starting out on their careers live in 1200 SqFt houses on a quarter acre & some in a garden apartment or apartment building. If you follow any of the trends here since 2010 there has been a major migration from TL/TLX to Audi, BMW, Lexus & MB. Was a time 2G & 3G where Acura at least in TL sedan sales out sold all of them. Can this all be attributed to badge matters & having money to burn? Or do people who are financially able just buy things they feel are nice that appeals to them?
Thing is in 2018 for all its smart value & smart performance Acura sold 159,000 cars & SUV's last year while BMW's "badge" sold 311,000 cars & SUV's. Maybe the new TLX DOHC TT V6 will be the secret sauce to get them back in the game.
The irony that gets lost on a lot of people here is it may take a $50,000 TLX to get there. Whoa a $50,000 TLX, god some people must have money to burn or just are buying the "S" badge.
I don't think it's possible for Acura to succeed with a new Type S and this thread proves why.
There will be guys like 4G (and me) who expect the Type S to be a competitor to the BMW M and MB AMG. But I highly doubt Acura has the technical capability or interest in competing in this ultra-high performance luxury space. The BMW M is essentially the pinnacle of ultimate driving machines (no one can or would even argue that), so Acura waltzing into the fray with a Type S is like the old knife into a gun fight adage. There may be some who cite Acura race cars as having the prowess to do this, but besides the NSX, Acura has never brought any real racing pedigree to the streets. Besides, if they did, you know as well as I that Type S with the 3.0TT that some of you are speculating will run more than $50k. There's no way it can't. Acura knows that is a tiny market with few sales and little profit.
There will be guys like jhb31 who expect the Type S to be some bump up from the regular TLX that won't appease the guys above. Maybe an Aspec appearance package with Advance level amenities. There would be guys (like me) who might spring for that depending on pricing and performance, because like jhb31, I've owned Euros* and will never, ever go back. But that car won't even make it into magazine comparo showdowns with any of the other BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis high performance offerings. If Acura's goal with the Type S is 0-60 in about 5 seconds for about $50k, they better hope there are no Subaru dealers nearby, because a loaded STI runs 0-60 in about 5 seconds for about $40k, sacrificing some fit and finish for performance.
Whatever Acura builds, this Type S will be released into a field of established leaders that either cost less or perform better. They can't win.
*If you care: I drove an Audi A4 and rode a BMW K1200LT motorrad. I loved both, but both required costly maintenance and thousands of dollars in repairs (A4: $1800 control arms/tie rods, $900 airbag sensor and $1200 CV axles and BMW: $2800 transmission replacement because a rear seal failure allowed engine and tranny oil to mix - a common K engine issue of that era). I traded both in on the same day for my WRX and stuck to Asians ever since, which have always treated me well, and is why I was so disappointed in my TLX unreliability and vibration.
My question to you is why are you expecting the Type-S to compete with the real M and AMGs? That’s more of what the Type-R is meant for; the Type-S has always competed against what is now known as M-lite and AMG-lite (or faux M, faux AMG, whatever you want to call cars like the M340i and C43 AMG). I think it’s fairly reasonable for the Type-S to compete against them given that the 3G Type-S legitimately competed against their predecessors.
Acura has said its going back to it's roots. The type S was not a barn burner or near M class performance or cost. I have had both new BMW and Audi's and couldn't unload the last two fast enough. The only BMW I had that was decent was years back when they were a small car manufacturer. and not a dime a dozen on the road. I had BMW throw in maintenance. Amounted to 3 oil changes that took 2 to 4 hours of wait time (Acura was under 40 a change so a whopping 120 in "savings" over 3 years(bmw charges a higher rate when not "free", worthless in the grand scheme of things. So many bmw items were one off options or you had to order an expensive package to get the one option you wanted. As a result I had to special order the car from germany to get many relatively common features the acura had stock at the time (with little if any discount from BMW for the items) and then wait a month to get it off the boat. Oh, and when I went to trade in my audi which was near mint they offered less than half of what I sold it on craigs list in one day which added up to about 7K additional. That experience turned me off of the brand along with multiple mechanical issues the first 18 months (6 unscheduled visits for issues and then the loaner car was ol a chevy lumina). Did the car drive well when running? Yes. Would I buy another, never.
The type S on the other had cost very little to maintain, looked great, great engine trans pairing, nice type S add ones, never broke and after 10 years got fantastic dealer trade in who had the car sold in 3 days from me doping it off. Fast enough and plenty of features over the standard model at nominal cost. Would that type of car sell well today? We will see. I just think people thinking this will be a huge departure from previous type S models have expectations to high. Put them in a loaded M class or Audi and it will possibly languish on lots. If expectations are for some super tlx then the RDX and MDX type S will be competing with Porsche Macon and Cayanne. Seems unlikely. I expect some crossover but those shopping M series and Porsche are not your typical Acura buyers that worry about cost of ownership.Think Lexus and Infinity.
Just a few things on history Things change.
My 2004 330ZHP MT convertible in 10 years & 125,000+ miles cost me under $1500 out of pocket out side of tires. My 2006 TL MT over 6 years between recalls & TSB fixes was the most dealer maintenance heavy car I have owned in the last 40 years. Contemporaneous posts by me on the TL 3G forum in those years will confirm this.
So the whole "is it reliable etc" is a moving target. In the industry surveys over the past 5-7 years the 3 German cars have risen to near the top & the TLX has fallen to below average. The only time these same surveys were approved of here was when the Acura was near the top & the Germans below average. Such is human nature.
Problem is the TL TL-S TLX were never intended to compete with BMW M, MB AMG or Audi RS cars. If anyone thinks that they need to look at what the M cars are made for, a DD that you can take to the track for track days. Example the 4400lb M5 will out run most Corvettes prior to C8. A 2.8 0-60 & pretty much heads up drivers race in the 1/4 @ 10.9 sec @ 129 mph all in the lap of luxury. The M2, M3/4 have a lot less luxury but the new 2020/2021 G 3/4 series will be running outputs of 480bhp base and 510bhp competition series. The "competition" series is current marketing speak for the MPPSK/THP package. They are not race cars but competent fun track day cars.
Current F series M cars are at 425BHP. This is why BMW has enabled the G series 3/4 can generate more power & performance. The M series has moved its marker up so the base 340 series new power output is not stepping on its toes but will still do well against the other non AMG & RS cars.
IMHO the TLX has always been a nice car. Its has always been oversold as a performance sports sedan, you can't find a TLX add without a race car in it. Many of the guys here seem to want the car to join the AUDI, BMW & MB in the public's eye. Don't see that happening without a similar price tag.
The V6 TL could compete heads up with the N/A 6 cylinder 3 series but that position has eroded to where on a performance bases the V6 in now hard pressed by the 4 cylinder 330.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-24-2019 at 08:44 AM.
I think the real issue here is brand loyalty is a thing of the past.
In the past, if you were a Honda guy...you wouldn't really give a shit if another brand was a second faster...you would get the best Honda
had to offer and snicker at people that thought they were better than your Honda.
We're a fickle people, people.
Same can be said by a Civic owner spending $22,000 for his new car vs a $45,000 Acura TLX owner. Is the TLX worth twice what the Civic is?
As people move up on their jobs more money is made available to spend so spending goes up. That's why some people live in 5,000 Sq Ft houses on two acres while others just starting out on their careers live in 1200 SqFt houses on a quarter acre & some in a garden apartment or apartment building. If you follow any of the trends here since 2010 there has been a major migration from TL/TLX to Audi, BMW, Lexus & MB. Was a time 2G & 3G where Acura at least in TL sedan sales out sold all of them. Can this all be attributed to badge matters & having money to burn? Or do people who are financially able just buy things they feel are nice that appeals to them?
Thing is in 2018 for all its smart value & smart performance Acura sold 159,000 cars & SUV's last year while BMW's "badge" sold 311,000 cars & SUV's. Maybe the new TLX DOHC TT V6 will be the secret sauce to get them back in the game.
The irony that gets lost on a lot of people here is it may take a $50,000 TLX to get there. Whoa a $50,000 TLX, god some people must have money to burn or just are buying the "S" badge.
You certainly understand the value of marketing/branding. Hyundai spun off Genesis because for some the badge matters. Some (certainly not all) people as they move on in their career and have more disposable income want to make a statement. That's not to say they're just buying any ol car because of the prestige - but people generally buy with their emotions then justify with their intellect. There's no denying the message driving a Mercedes sends - it's a different message than an Acura.
Last edited by CheeseyPoofs McNut; 10-24-2019 at 08:55 AM.
You certainly understand the value of marketing/branding.
Guilty, made a career out of it. That's why the Acura saga for the past 20 years is of such great interest to me. If some of these guys worked for me & I did not put them on unemployment I would have been the one collecting government checks instead of corporate ones.
I have been waiting to see who would turn it around for a long time. Like the DOHC TT V6 plan. Hope they can execute. They don't need to sell a lot of them, just more than enough to satisfy HONDA's ROI requirements, enough to put some backbone into the mirage they have tried to create.
BMW has is 340/440 but its the large number of 330/430 4 cylinder sales that keeps the lights on profits flowing & shareholder happy.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-24-2019 at 09:04 AM.
Just looked at the test & the car is really smoke'n. Much better then I would have expected. Tires are top rate by Tire Rack Michelin Pilot Sport 4S Summers . Highlighted some very upscale performance numbers that are going to be tough to match
C/D TEST RESULTS Zero to 60 mph: 3.8 sec Zero to 100 mph: 9.4 sec Zero to 130 mph: 16.5 sec Zero to 150 mph: 24.6 sec Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.9 sec Standing ¼-mile:12.3 sec @ 114 mph Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph Braking, 70–0 mph: 156 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad:0.96 g
C&D observed Fuel Economy 23mpg
EPA Guess 25/22/30mpg
C&D observed has a lot of flogging & back road running. Only 2 shy of the EPA combined
BMW is definitively sandbagging the horsepower rating with 114mph in the quarter. My 2011 335is with an early JB4 tune ran 114mph quarter miles with a chassis dyno (DynoJet) reading of 370whp. Add another 12/15% to find power at the crankshaft (advertised power)
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-24-2019 at 10:08 AM.
Just looked at the test & the car is really smoke'n. Much better then I would have expected. Tires are top rate by Tire Rack Michelin Pilot Sport 4S Summers . Highlighted some very upscale performance numbers that are going to be tough to match
C/D TEST RESULTS Zero to 60 mph: 3.8 sec Zero to 100 mph: 9.4 sec Zero to 130 mph: 16.5 sec Zero to 150 mph: 24.6 sec Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.9 sec Standing ¼-mile:12.3 sec @ 114 mph Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph Braking, 70–0 mph: 156 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad:0.96 g
C&D observed Fuel Economy 23mpg
EPA Guess 25/22/30mpg
C&D observed has a lot of flogging & back road running. Only 2 shy of the EPA combined
BMW is definitively sandbagging the horsepower rating with 114mph in the quarter. My 2011 335is with an early JB4 tune ran 114mph quarter miles with a chassis dyno (DynoJet) reading of 370whp. Add another 12/15% to find power at the crankshaft (advertised power)
Methinks that they’re underrating it so as to not outshine the M4. The M-lite cars are a smoking deal, especially as a daily driver. They’re considerably cheaper than the real M cars, but in terms of usable performance (i.e. acceleration) they’re 95% of what you get from the M. Sure, the M handles better, has better brakes, yadda yadda, but as a daily driver owners will never get to use the big fade resistant brakes or better suspension outside of the track anyways.
My question to you is why are you expecting the Type-S to compete with the real M and AMGs? That’s more of what the Type-R is meant for; the Type-S has always competed against what is now known as M-lite and AMG-lite (or faux M, faux AMG, whatever you want to call cars like the M340i and C43 AMG). I think it’s fairly reasonable for the Type-S to compete against them given that the 3G Type-S legitimately competed against their predecessors.
I don't know Euro cars like I used to. I don't know the differences between a true M and a faux M. I thought they were just subtle differences in performance for track vs street driving. I meant anything performance oriented with an M in the name. If a TLX 4cyl is like a 328i or 330i, a TLX V6 is like a 335i, and nothing Acura matches up with M, M3, M340i or whatever else BMW is making.
So according to OP, a Type S should do about 0-60 in about 4 seconds and 12.5 quarter mile to compete in this space. As a former Honda guy, I would have loved to see Acura step up to the plate and back up the "precision crafted performance" and "that kind of thrill" TV advertisements showing Honda F1 cars and NSXs doing burnouts and donuts as strobe lights flash all over the place... c'mon man. I'll believe that when I see it. I doubt Acura can deliver that.
I had a long history of customer satisfaction, good driving cars and deep loyalty with Honda. My daily car search started with logging into Autotrader and checking the Acura and Honda boxes. I wasn't interested in anyone else and had no idea what others even offered. I chose a TLX over Accord for the AWD... too bad that didn't work out. But it would have been nice to consider a high performance car from Honda. I don't mean a boy ricer Civic Type R. I want a sleeper, something car people recognize and respect. If the Type S isn't that or something close, why bother making one at all?
My question to you is why are you expecting the Type-S to compete with the real M and AMGs? That’s more of what the Type-R is meant for; the Type-S has always competed against what is now known as M-lite and AMG-lite (or faux M, faux AMG, whatever you want to call cars like the M340i and C43 AMG). I think it’s fairly reasonable for the Type-S to compete against them given that the 3G Type-S legitimately competed against their predecessors.
I agree with this. It would be kind of bonkers if Acura launched a vehicle that competed with the M3 right out of the gate. Baby steps. Type-S first, then Type-R! And remember, during the testing phase with that TLX mule, Acura brought along a C43 and S4 for benchmarking. Speaks volumes of what kind of performance targets Acura is aiming for with the Type-S.
I don't know Euro cars like I used to. I don't know the differences between a true M and a faux M. I thought they were just subtle differences in performance for track vs street driving. I meant anything performance oriented with an M in the name. If a TLX 4cyl is like a 328i or 330i, a TLX V6 is like a 335i, and nothing Acura matches up with M, M3, M340i or whatever else BMW is making.
There's no 335i or 340i anymore; they've been renamed. The 330i is the base model (248hp so somewhere between the I4 and V6 TLX), the M340i is the mid-trim model (382hp but really north of 400hp and is probably what the Type-S is targeting), and the M3 is the top-of-the-line (not out yet, but rumored to be north of 500hp, which is well outside of what Honda/Acura's can dream of). Just because the M340i has an "M" in its name doesn't make it an M car; it's a renamed 340i. Same thing with the C-Class; the C300 is the base model, what used to be called the C400 is now the AMG C43 (again, just a name change), and the top of the line is still the AMG C63.
Thanks fiatlux. I was going to ask what the BMW auto numbering meant next, thinking it was always 3 (model) followed by displacement (like a 2.8L V6 or 4.0L V8 or something). That's how it was with my bike K 4cyl 1200cc lux touring. But then I found and read these. So I guess the auto numbering no longer means much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Mo...el_designation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s#Nomenclature
I think Infiniti has gone all arbitrary too. I think it would behoove manufacturers to stick with numbers meaning something and being simple. It's working for Lexus.
I can tell at a glance if a Lexus is a V6 or V8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#Model_nomenclature
Early 50's so have seen a lot of change but still enjoy cars more than most. BMW was one of my first cars out of college. Granted it was 3 years old with low mileage at the time (bought from a doctor). I guess many don't realize that BMW was for years a smaller manufacturer with extremely high quality cars (not cheap to buy) that lasted a long time and you didn't see them all over the roads like you do today. Eventually they got to be mass produced more affordable to buy and very common while reliability went the other way during that transition. I did years later buy another one brand new and that one was nothing but problems. I guess many think BMW has always been a big seller like today in the U.S. but they were not always a dime a dozen car.
Methinks that they’re underrating it so as to not outshine the M4. The M-lite cars are a smoking deal, especially as a daily driver. They’re considerably cheaper than the real M cars, but in terms of usable performance (i.e. acceleration) they’re 95% of what you get from the M. Sure, the M handles better, has better brakes, yadda yadda, but as a daily driver owners will never get to use the big fade resistant brakes or better suspension outside of the track anyways.
Agree with you. Was a time around 2012 my tuned 335is would out accelerate the V8 M cars & the saying was wait till I get you at VIR for payback. Now they do everything better That is a constant debate at the BMW site. If you are not a regular track day guy why spend the extra money for am M daily driver.
Based on actual runs at the BMW performance center, on the street, you would have to push into the area of extreme stupidity in the 340/440 before you hit a major split split point in handling from the true M3/4.
I found the true M cars are much better cars at the outer handling edge compared to what used to be 340/440 MPPSK/THP versions now M340/M440. Have gone off the track ass first in a 440 similar to mine at speeds that I would just keep rolling along in the M car.
The 6 cylinder used to come is three major flavors with some optional overlap. Base 320BHP, MPPSK/THP 355BHP, M 425BHP. Looks like now there is no base I6 as they all are somewhat upgraded from the MPPSK/THP 355BHP spec to 382BHP with standard LSD. The other flavor is the M which now comes in two versions 480BHP & 510BHP which should be killers in acceleration.
Really the bottom line is all of the above are better cars then I am a driver so after a point it becomes an academic exercise for me..
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-24-2019 at 12:36 PM.
Thanks fiatlux. I was going to ask what the BMW auto numbering meant next, thinking it was always 3 (model) followed by displacement (like a 2.8L V6 or 4.0L V8 or something). That's how it was with my bike K 4cyl 1200cc lux touring. But then I found and read these. So I guess the auto numbering no longer means much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Mo...el_designation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s#Nomenclature
I think Infiniti has gone all arbitrary too. I think it would behoove manufacturers to stick with numbers meaning something and being simple. It's working for Lexus.
I can tell at a glance if a Lexus is a V6 or V8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#Model_nomenclature
Yeah, they've rationalized things by explaining that the naming convention represents the displacement needed by a NA version of the motor to deliver the same power level. For instance, a 3.0L turbo I guess is comparable to a 4.0L engine, so they call it a 340i. Even Lexus is getting in on this; the NX200t was renamed to NX300 this year, because 300>200 which sounds better. Oh yeah, and the IS300 is a 2.0T that used to be called the IS200t, and the IS300 AWD is actually a detuned version of the 3.5L V6 motor that's also in the (aptly named) IS350.
At least Audi is still consistent in how it badges their engines, except that the Q7 with a 3.0T badge actually has a 3.0L _super_charged engine, not turbocharged. Minor detail I suppose, all things considered.
It gets even better; for BMW odd numbers used to mean sedan while even numbers meant coupe, which made sense, but now there are even numbered sedans too. I guess at least i = gas, d = diesel, e = plug-in hybrid, and x = AWD, except when the "i" is in the front, in which case it's fully electric, unless it's follow by an 8, in which case it's a gas-electric hybrid.
I think the real issue here is brand loyalty is a thing of the past.
In the past, if you were a Honda guy...you wouldn't really give a shit if another brand was a second faster...you would get the best Honda
had to offer and snicker at people that thought they were better than your Honda.
We're a fickle people, people.
Are we fickle or just not sticking by something when it starts to go downhill? I was a big fan of Honda/Acura and many have been in my family but they didn't treat my sister too well when her Accord had manufacturing issues and my experience with my TSX has been lukewarm, particularly when it comes to dealership experiences. So add this in with the market becoming more competitive and people's eyes are starting to wander.
Are we fickle or just not sticking by something when it starts to go downhill? I was a big fan of Honda/Acura and many have been in my family but they didn't treat my sister too well when her Accord had manufacturing issues and my experience with my TSX has been lukewarm, particularly when it comes to dealership experiences. So add this in with the market becoming more competitive and people's eyes are starting to wander.
This has been an issue with Honda and Acura for a long time. They got so used to having solid products that they inevitably blamed the user when they came in with a problem because it can't possibly be the cars fault since its perfect. If you had a problem, it sucks, but at least you're very unlikely to have a problem. Now, their cars are no longer as insanely reliable as they were in the 90s, but the dealerships and company still act like it is, and they treat their customers accordingly. Acura customers are finally learning about this other side of car ownership and what separates a luxury car from a mainstream manufacturer beyond the actual car itself.
People criticize Mercedes and Audi for having unreliable products, but at least when something goes wrong and you take it in, you're treated like royalty and they'll make things right. Lexus does too, even though their cars are orders of magnitude more reliable (and statistically more reliable than Acuras). Acura could stand to learn a thing or two from these if they want to continue to stay competitive.
I still think the market for the type S will be for someone who wants the performance that is missing from the TLX but doesn't want to go to a german or american brand. Over under on HP I would put at 350 and probably take the under with maybe Acura bumping it up in a mid cycle update. Ultimately I see it as being an every day driver and not something people are going to take to "track day" or a "Sunday drive" but still look great and have the extra power that is lacking in the current TLX for those that like to drive enthusiastically. The 3rd gen Type S was just about a 30hp bump over the base and it was a way more fun car to drive and felt way faster than the current TLX. Acura is missing that type of car in the lineup and hopefully they get a mix that satisfies most people. I held my S for 10 years and gave up waiting for the next Type S. It may not have been fast by todays standards but sure was fun to drive compared to the TLX and at least felt fast. Maybe they need a Type R as well for those that want the 3 second 60 times.
Then again just one opinion. I also would like a coupe but that won't happen.
Acura has said its going back to it's roots. The type S was not a barn burner or near M class performance or cost.
True but when the Type S was around it was competitive with the top non M 3 Series (the 330i, the 335i arrived only in 2007) 0-60 in the high 5...in theory Honda/Acura had the Type R badge to use if they wanted to go after the M division.
The 340i is not an M car.
In my opinion, a Type S car not capable to even hit in the target area of a 340i (or, worse, a Genesis G70) it would be an embarrassment ...just do not use the badge....it would become the equivalent of the old Hyundai R-Spec trim.....not to be taken seriously.
10-23-2019, 04:54 PM
) dual clutch has changed my mind somewhat because
That is a constant debate at the BMW site. If you are not a regular track day guy why spend the extra money for am M daily driver.