fiatlux

I mean, at least they're not overrating the power . I don't think anyone ever complained about having more power than they were expecting.

jhb31

Why not buy the 340i? It's already out there and seems to be what you want. What is it you think Acura will have that is not in a car you can already buy right now? Flatlux says the BMW M340i is the benchmark. Why not buy the benchmark? If brand and all don't matter why wait? Seems many thinks brands are all fungible anyway.

I don't mind paying up front for the car but don't wan't to pay on the backend as well for maintenance and do consider depreciation rates particularly when warranty periods expire. Not that I couldn't afford it but to me that's not how I choose to spend my money. Everyone makes choices, if you're fortunate to burn 70 or 1OOk on a 2nd or 3rd car over 8 years or so that's great and everyone uses their money different ways.

4G-Lover

Well, Genesis, for example, could have had something to say if their car was going to be judged against a car with 60-70 more HP....they may not have accepted the comparison and the article evaluation based on the false premises of both having almost the same power...it makes your engineers looking like dupes that they cannot keep pace with a car with a similar advertised power.

I agree that overrating is bad too...something actually many suspected Hyundai has done in the past.
I believe a dyno run should be included in every magazine test.

BEAR-AvHistory

I would think the German underrating has a lot to do with EU regulations & insurance coverage. have not looked not getting a car till next summer but BMW used to hedge the number with an asterisk & some weasel words. Trying to remember the rating might have been accurate at the RPM listed but maybe the car had some more revs in it.

Back when the 3 series went turbo the were 4 or 5 iterations of the original N54 engine all rated at 300BHP/300ft LBS & all running a different whp for each version with a spread of about 25WHP best to worse. My 335IS was an N54 rated at 320BHP & dynoed pure stock out of the box at 319/321WHP. Based on my pure stock baseline runs at Rockingham 13.0 best 110 best it was running the same as a number as other 335is cars & inline with the magazine tests.

The trick was BMW's "turbo boost" the normal 320ft lbs was boosted to 370ft lbs for a short duration 6 or 7 seconds during the run. Kind of like getting N2O hit. The was keyed to a fast shifting 7DCT. They were not shy about Turbo-Boost as it was a major part of the 335is advertising campaign. Car was only a coupe or convertible limited production over 3 years starting in 2011 with 5000 units. Lots of nice aero features etc, interior items, but the big guns were the motor & 7DCT. Was the only BMW 3 series ever offered in the US with a DCT that was not an M car.

Same engine in the Z4is was rated at 340BHP if I remember right.

Car ID's up till the 335 BMW was series then metric displacement. 325 was a 3 series 2.5 liter car. 530 was a 5 series car with a 3 liter engine. When they went turbo they changed the ID's using 330 for the 3 liter N/A 6 & 335 for the 3 liter turbo 6 After that it was all random regarding the second two digits. No logic. The change from a 6 to a 4 cylinder just added more confusion to the ID's.

The 340 was created to show it was a new generation car. It was still a 3 liter turbo but a new motor. Now its a M340. New generation series 3 with an new engine but packaged like the 335is with all the performance options built in.

They split the 2 door production from 4 door a few years ago creating odds 4 doors evens 2 doors. Then they went random by calling the 5 door hatchback a Grand Coupe with a even series number 440 430 and a random displacement number.

4G-Lover

Put it this way...if I were the maker of a competitor used on a comparison test, I have the right to know how much power my competitor really put on the ground (we are talking about sport sedans here where power and performance is a strong selling point) before providing my car to the press.

Before the widespread adoption of turbocharing, BMW were not able to outaccelerate the competition by this amount, actually the 3G and even my Maxima SE were able to keep up with the 330i...with the introduction of the 335i BMW engines always seem to be propelled by the "hand of Zeus" as C&D said it compared to their advertised numbers.
You can do a lot of hidden trick stuff with turbos...overboosting for few seconds, as you mentioned, is one of them.
I'm not an expert but I believe it is even possible to overboost the engine only when the car is really moving using the myriads of already present onboard electronics (GPS, wheel inertial sensors, etc..) so you can "fool" a static dyno test

An M5 capable to keep up on the 1/4 with a 911 Turbo is really suspicious...I bet the M5 cranks out well north of 700 HP.


If BMW engines had really some sort of "special engineering sauce", a number of competitors would have already cracked the code reverse engineering one of their cars....I suspect it is something much smpler....serious underrating.

The M340i hit 60 in 3.8, exactly the same as an Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio weighting the same, with the same ZF transmission and with a 510 HP hot V twin turbo Ferrari sourced engine.....382 HP my big fat behind....

4G-Lover

Look at my user logo....I do not drive a 4G anymore.....

fiatlux

Back in the 90s they also played around with the numbering system for displacement. For instance, the E36 323i had a 2.5L engine, and the 318i in the US had a 1.9L engine.

4G-Lover

I could not agree more.....saying that Acura management is incompetent would be a gross understatement....

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Maybe not you in particular, but as a whole. Yes. Everything is now now now...and all cars have so many electronic features now I doubt any of them are truly much more reliable than another.
I know the TLX suffered transmission issues...RLX the differential issue...shit even the NSX has a gas tank issue.
What I do know from my experience is if you approach it tactically...they will make you whole.
and personally the dealership nearest my house is absolutely awesome...full of enthusiastic enthusiast techs that go above and beyond.

I do digress though...it's not the end all be all...
I already own Hondas best in the S2000 anyway and I've gone Caddy, Audi, GM (redundant), Jeep, Volvo and back since then.

kurtatx

I mean, you drive an Acura. It's a badged Accord.

F23A4

Meh! Same goes for the Lexus ES, effectively a 'badged' Avalon.

Admittedly, badge-focusing is more of a behavior with Baby Boomers and GenXers; Millenials seem far less inclined towards badge status. If Gen Z continues that trend, an argument could be made for the unwinding of brands like Acura and Infiniti. (But that's for another topic discussion)

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree as to parity in the pre-turbo days. Was a big reason the 3G TL sold so well as a Sport Sedan. Just lacked some of the handling capabilities as it was FWD but the price was about $10,000 less.

Also fact based as I owned both at the same time. 2004 BMW 330Ci 6MT ZHP (limited production performance model) convertible rated at 235BHP.. Basically an M3 without the 333BHP M3 engine. 2006 base TL 6MT Summer Tires 258BHP. Was a drivers race. Could win a traffic light GP against the other car regardless of which one I was driving. Daughter has since turned the tables on me & has better times in the same car at the BMW performance center.

On under rating as fairness to the competition. The competitive car companies if they are going against a specific model buy some of them. Some are cut up to see how they are constructed, others beat to death & others performance tested. There are no secretes once a car is released.

4G-Lover

I agree and many competitors do this with other makers products (Alfa took apart, screw by screw an E90 and an F30)...BMW underrating is getting progressively worse and worse...

Speed_Racer

Lol, and you drive a badged Jetta. . .

4G-Lover

IMHO up to the 4G, Acura delivered serious value for the money..like the car or not or not, my 4G TL SH-AWD 6MT gave me 535i size with better performance and handling, coupled with a sublime manual transmission, for 3 Series money

fiatlux

I don't know about that...they (we?) go gaga over branded crap like Supreme and other junk peddled by Hypebeast....

honda_nut

I'm not so sure about the whole reliability over German cars after owning my current TLX, and I've owned Acuras for over 12 years now. Reliability was one of my high points in buying this car and its been quite the opposite. Unless Acura really ups the quality testing, they're going to have a rude awakening with the next generation of cars. Can't fool the same customer twice.

The next gen TLX Type-S isn't going to be on my shopping list that's for sure. Highly doubt it will have German level performance or be as reliable as a Lexus.

mapleloaf

The reality is the badge matters more than the car for many people who don't use the supposed "performance" gains when driving to and from work. Too many highpriced German cars on the road in the hands of people who can barely drive (I see this EVERY day) and a surprisingly high percentage of cars broken down on the roadside with German badges for me not to conclude that Badges are Big (BAG). The biggest growth I see in my market is the number of Mercedes, despite some, IMHO, questionable exterior styling. Lots of folks with money to burn, or with too much debt.

As for me, I don't need no stinking badges

someguy11

What about your Aspec badges? Are those for performance or did they just come with the grey wheels and fake suede seats?

Edit: I only throw this out there based on the amount of judgment in that post - performance, styling and personal finances of German car owners - coming from the driver of a fwd naturally aspirated four banger dressed up like a race car that rocks 0-60 in about seven seconds.

fiatlux

Ouch

kurtatx

Also Beats and Apple.

Millennials love badges as much as the next guy

But honestly, the comments here are laughable. German automobiles may be overpriced but they are worlds better than Acura's current offerings.

It's not just the badge.

ESHBG

Not to mention that nowadays you can get the badge for a decent price depending on the model within the lineup and the options. The average person sees and hears "Mercedes" or "BMW" and may be wowed but has no idea that model didn't cost that much more than a fully loaded Accord, especially if gently used.

someguy11

I created this side-by-side to show how accurate you are. As a 24 year old new grad starting a new job and getting your first $1,500 (or more) paycheck... no kids (yet), no house (yet), nothing to do but watch professional sports on TV... what would you want to go out and buy?

An Accord, like the one your mom or dad (or both) drove while you were growing up? Or a BMW? My choice 13 years ago was an A4. And yes, I loved showing up at places where my friends congregated. And yes, they loved riding in it. They gave me the nickname "Lord of the Rings." What nickname do they give really cool guys that drive Accords? "The Accordian?"

ESHBG

Ha ha indeed! Nice comparison. It's going to be interesting to see how brands like Genesis evolve and how some of the more established badges like BMW fare over time as gaps narrow. These are confusing times we are in and I just look towards cars like the Kia Stinger where you get a lot of bang for the buck yet Kia is already considering discontinuing it; I can't help but think that the brand has a lot to do with that which is unfortunate. Then you have brands like BMW where you still can't get things like Android Auto so for me an Accord would be a far more useful purchase as a daily driver but then I do lose some of the cool factor.

fiatlux

Part of the issue is that Kia/Hyundai dealerships are atrocious when it comes to service. I went in to check out a Stinger and they had the thing under lock and key like it was a LaFerrari or something. They were reluctant to even let me sit in it, and wouldn't let me take it out on a test drive without running a credit check. That's unheard of. I tried visiting another one and they kept asking me how much my monthly budget is and what kind of financing I was looking at, even though I told them I would be paying in cash and I don't need to finance. It's almost like that was a foreign concept to them. I mean, I get that in the past they made s#*tboxes and their customers were bad/no credit bums, but times have changed. Their products are much better, but their dealers don't seem to have changed a lick.

4G-Lover

Ahahaha LOL, that is hilarious, it happened to me almost exactly like that....I wanted to test drive the Stinger GT and they started to ask me question about "how serious I was about the car" and so on....I told him, "Buddy look outside at what I drive"...that ended the nonsense right there.

I test drove Porsche and a GT-R with no question to ask......Heck, when I was shopping for my last car, an Audi and a Chevrolet dealership did let me drive an RS7 and a ZL1 alone for over one hour to test the car practicality in my driveway and on a typical grocery errand.....they just handed me the key and "have fun, take it back with the same amount of gas please".

4G-Lover

You did not get a badge for sure but you did not get any kind of performance either....a 4 banger A Spec TLX is the ultimate pretend sport sedan..money wasted on spoilers, exhaust and nice rims....watch out for a lead foot soccer mum driving a Chrysler Pacifica minivan at the next traffic lights....

kurtatx

The transmission on the 4 cylinder is far better than the dumpster fire on the 6 cylinder.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree 100% The hole in the donut is the lowest percentage of repo's is among the higher priced cars. The repo rate rises dramatically as the entry level price goes down & is worse among used cars. As for German cars littering the roadway with dead vehicles that is total feel good BS for mid & lower level owners.

Large base sample: Shows various models reliability & customer satisfaction as rated by the owners of the cars. Just click on the model to get its numbers.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/acura/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/bmw/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/audi/

2019 Rank Acura beats MB by one position & loses to VW by one position.

Rank
1 TOYOTA
2 SUBARU
3 LEXUS
4 MAZDA
5 HYUNDAI
6 GENESIS
7 AUDI
8 KIA
9 PORSCHE
10 BMW
11 LINCOLN
12 NISSAN
13 BUICK
14 HONDA
15 MINI
16 FORD
17 INFINITI
18 VOLKSWAGEN
19 ACURA
20 MERCEDES-BENZ
21 DODGE
22 CHEVROLET
23 JEEP
24 GMC
25 VOLVO
26 CHRYSLER
27 TESLA
28 CADILLAC

4G-Lover

I totally agree...where German cars, especially in the past, were not to be bought used without doing a lot of research and homework, they never "littered" the road side.

The early 335i had a fairly high failure rate for their high pressure fuel pump but these problems were quickly addressed within warranty

4G-Lover

The transmission may be better compared to the 9 Speed ZF slushbox on the V6 but the rest of the car is a joke when it comes to performance.

Heck, my stepson WRX is heaps better as a performance sport sedan compared to a 4 banger TLX, it would run circle around it pretty much across the board.

With a sticker just shy of 40 grand for a 4 banger A Spec I can imagine a lot of other far more satisfying choices.

Midnight Mystery

The good thing about a J35/ZF-9 combo is that it provides a strong 0-60 type acceleration. Starting in first and running through each gear until redline.

IMHAO, It's not worth it to buy anything with an N/A I4. Any ZF-9 can be respectively fast with the right driving habits!

4G-Lover

0-60 in 5,7 it ain't that fast anymore, it's Toyota Camry territory...my 2002 Maxima SE was cracking the 6 second barrier with a six speed manual (slower and less gears compared to modern automatics) 18 years ago....

F23A4

0-60 in 5.7 seconds may not be lightning quick but it is more than enough for the majority of motorists not looking for an S4 or RS400.

Agreed Midnight!

someguy11

Of all the complaints I had with my Euro car and bike, they never left me stranded. I was never worried about not getting from A to B. It wasn't drivetrain stuff that broke - it was mechanical stuff wearing down or failing widgets and gizmos. Knocking, squeaking or warning lights always gave me time to mosey to a mechanic. So no, "Euros leave you stranded" is classic disinformation. On the other hand, I seriously doubted my TLX (the ZF9 specifically) was going to get me to my destination every trip, every time, which I came to expect and love about Acuras... without some TSB-related disaster occurring. That's when I simply had to take my loss and ditch it.

Nowadays, I couldn't care less about cool factor and enjoy dependable, moderately performance oriented cars, hence, why I landed in a V6 TLX. In my youth, I appreciated the cooler, faster, more luxurious flash of a Euro. Having matured 12 years like a great whiskey, I would still likely take an Accord over a Euro. However, knowing what I know now about my TLX, I should never have ruled out a Euro before I started shopping.

Of all the complaints I had with my TLX, the muzzled V6 was fun to drive spiritedly. I said elsewhere on this forum punching the V6 with the ZF9 in the right gear was a guaranteed smile on my face every single time. It felt like a rocket... and I sort of miss that. But my GS 350 is just as fast (actually faster to 60 by 1/2 sec) without all the other daily baggage, misshifts, hard shifts, odd noises, dropped ACC, nanny lights driving in the middle of the lane... Everything in my Lexus works every time I start the car. I certainly couldn't go back to a 4 cylinder - too unsatisfying - especially a complete poseur like the Aspec that would lose a drag race to my Odyssey or anything else that pulled up next to it.

jjsC5

Here are a few random observations. I’ve owned a hell of a lot of cars in the past 50 years. For a long time most were Japanese. As to Honda, I have owned four Honda Accords, three Acura’s, eight Honda motorcycles and a Honda Lawnmower. In the past six years though I have owned two BMW 5 Series, two Audi A7s and three BMW motorcycles that I have put a lot of miles on.

So here is my take on BMW vs Acura. The BMWs have all except one had problems, but mostly minor and none of which made them undrivable. All the Japanese vehicles combined I’ve owned have had virtually no problems. Until I retired ten months ago I did not worry too much about reliability because I almost never have kept a car out of warranty. That will almost for sure change now that I’m retired. So Japanese (or Korean) quality matters more to me.

As far as snob appeal goes, I am not a snobbish person, but I freely admit to being a car snob. At Almost 67 years old I’m still as passionate about cars and motorcycles as I was 50 years ago. I’m not kidding when I say I think about what to buy next every day. I struggle with the Korean factor. I should for sure buy a G70 or Stinger. And I might. But I agree that I’m not there yet. On the other hand, I have no problem showing up in an Acura. In the early 80s I went from an Acura Legend to a Ford SHO. It seemed like a step down to me, but people who cared knew the SHO was a cool car.

I would love for my next car to be another BMW five. I love my current 540. But it would make much better financial sense to spend less money. Since I retired the end of last year, almost exactly ten months ago, I have put a combined 29,000 miles on my three motorcycles, and less than 4,000 miles on my car.

I’m probably a year away from a new car, but right now here are the contenders...M340, G70, new TLX if the Sport version has enough firepower. Dream car that is not totally out of the question is an M550 and on the radar is a BMW X3 M, but a long shot as is the M550.

jjsC5

BTW, isn’t it interesting that the Infinity Q50 Red Sport almost never comes up in these conversations? And I’ve owned three Infinity sedans. The Red Sport is probably the best bang for the buck when you consider that they often have big incentives.

BEAR-AvHistory

Don't know why but Infinity as a brand is getting hammered in the market, more so than the others. Been a very tough year for the cars & SUV's we usually talk about the most. Of the car brands we follow Cadillac BMW, Genesis, Kia, VW & Volvo have positive gains over last year. Acura, Audi, Infinity, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz & Nissan are all down compared to this time last year.

Closest I came to Infinity was is 2011 when it came down to a G37 Coupe vs BMW 335IS Coupe. Both IMHO very good cars. G37 was a better bang for the buck & the 335 a better performer. Its not advertised all that much but BMW has quite a few almost constant incentives. Key to maximizing your savings is to order the car not buy off the lot with Performance Center Delivery in SC or CA. This way you can buy from any dealer in the USA who will give you the best deal. Bought two cars from an Oregon dealer & one from a dealer in Georgia.

Current one had a loyalty bonus, normal dealer discount, MSD rate reduction, BMWCCA rebate, BMWFS rebate, Free Performance Center Delivery & 1 day driving school/factory tour for 2, Free port install of specific options that normally would have a dealer install charge of near $2,000, an after the fact thank you of a paid in full weekend for 1 at their high performance driving school. Not counting the two drivers schools or port install the rest was worth about 14% off MSRP & a 2% interest rate.

What makes this all interesting is this was not a model closeout deal but the first of the new mid cycle F generation with the B58 355BHP underrated engine replacing the N55 320BHP underrated engine. Car is an 2018 model year ordered in April 2017 & Delivered in June 2017. Goes away the coming summer.

reddogTL

I too have test driven G35/G37's back in the day and always loved the pure power of those engines, but the engines were always unrefined and coarse. Nowadays I think their problem is they are so behind on technology it's embarrassing. Not a single Infiniti model in their lineup has Apple CarPlay or Android Auto. I was floored when the new gen QX50 came out last year and it wasn't an option. Even now, I don't think any of the 2020 models still have it either?

ESHBG

Exactly. I get a steep discount on Infiniti and Nissan products have been good to my family but I just can't seem to do it, as while their cars are okay, they don't seem to do anything well and there is always a compromise somewhere. Minus my discount I could not imagine paying that kind of money for a car that is just okay in about every category. Yes, the Red Sport may excel in the fast category but you need more than just that with a daily driver.