docboy

Different strokes different people.

Some people like to push that 3rd pedal and be more involved with the car (along other stick shift benefits). Others don't want to deal with the "hassle" of a clutch/stick shift.

Some like to play video games, and some don't want to deal with pushing buttons and rather watch.

vbx

LOL, I never heard of anyone with a manual spending money to convert it to an automatic.

But yeah, like the other guy said. Different strokes for different folks. Not sure why manual isn't an option for some cars nowadays.

We have the option for leather or fake leather. Remote control steering and no remote control steering. etc etc.

And yeah, I prefer rack and pinion over remote control steering. Infiniti dropped the ball on that one. Forcing us to chose RCS if we decide to get a touring package.

BEAR-AvHistory

The only thing your doing differently than a DCT is pushing the pedal instead to pulling a paddle.

DCT is a full gearbox same as an MT not a torque converter with bands, sun & planetary gears. Electronics push the pedal & move the shift forks instead of your foot & arm. So if you want to play run the gears you can.

Why the MT's are dying beside being functionally slower is the image is all gone. All the big time racing series are now DCT as are all the bucks up exotics' so people lose interest in the MT & want to drive what the winners are driving.

As the pool shrinks the incentive for manufacturers to invest in producing the MT goes away. Think every 6MT 4G Acura sold is represented on this forum so you can expect them to walk away from it, just not enough warm bodies will to buy one.

Last one to go will be NASCAR who just discovered fuel injection this year.

Rocketsfan

Can we pretty much sum it up this way?


Enthusiasts : "Hey, my car isn't a damn washing machine! I want to interact with it when I drive!"


Average Joe : "If you want a damn video game, get a damn video game - the majority of us don't give a flip about making love to our cars while driving!"


And never the twain shall meet ...

internalaudit

Will the V6 9-speed suck then?

fsttyms1

You arent any more involved with the car having a 3rd pedal vs DCT.

fsttyms1

Me either, And DONT get me confused as a MT hater, I converted MY TL to a Manual. If i had to choose MT vs AT i would take MT all day long (and not for the goofy i feel more connected bs, but because of its advantages over AT for the type of driving and track use my car sees). BUT if there was an option for DCT i would choose that all day long over the manual. Its benefits are far better than MT all while giving you the same connection to the car.

fsttyms1

Most likely as its not going to give you the same control and fast shifting that a MT and DCT offer.

internalaudit

Fek!

fsttyms1

Where would you like to meet, or would you feel more comfortable holding the laptop in front of it so i can skype with your S2k

Im not saying an AUTO is a good substitute (i HATE autos, ESPECIALLY HONDA ATs. Honda has forever left a sour taste with me and Auto trans), Just that a DCT gets you every bit as connected to the car as a MT. You can do everything with a DCT that you could do with a Manual.

fsttyms1

NO one is saying an auto is good. IM NOT defending ATs. Just the misconception that MTs give you a more connected feel than a DCT. SS mode in your TL/TSX is nothing like a true DCT. Other than having to push in the "3rd" pedal (which does nothing for the being more connected or to make it better argument) you are still in the same control of the gearbox, just instead of having to push or pull a lever you pull on the 2 paddles behind the wheel, Especially for a sports car where the DCT makes the car quicker. Which is what most want.

internalaudit

So Honda's DCT can't handle the HP and Torque of the V6? That's kind of lame. Haha.

Colin

In the last few years, Honda developed several DCTs for different applications. It's kind of lame to think that one tranny will fit all. Would you waste the RLX 7DCT in a Fit? I recall reading that there is a new DCT for motorcycles, for the Fit Hybrid, the 8DCT for 4 cylinder Acura applications, and the 7DCT for the RLX Hybrid. They CHOSE to use the 9 speed over the RLX DCT unit for some reason (probably cause the TLX won't get that hybrid drivetrain) and we'll have to see if it was the right decision once both cars are out.

winstrolvtec

No auto or automated manual is going to replicate the true manual experience as relates to the driver, no matter how it's sliced and that's also despite the fact that it may shift faster and have other advantages but it's not like having the third pedal and the shift gate. No mistake about that. It is largely subjective and many don't care for that and that's fine but there are differences.

There are some things you actually can't do with a DCT or variant that you can a manual, as relates to gear engagement or pre-engagement, as well as gear selection and clutch techniques and launching. They may be insignificant to some or even many but they exist, while you can do most of what a DCT does in a manual and more from a driver driver input perspective, it's advantages lie with more gears and faster shifting not with what a driver can do with it. The driver usually does less with one and is less involved.

For me, a big part of the enthusiast scene historically has always involved the driver and their ability as well as the car, it used to be the other part of it, the part left that factors for driver skill. Makes it more fun or interesting IMO when that remains in the equation and is often the unknown part but we live in a time where people are more interested in what the car can do and less what they can do in relation to it, we take reaction time out of the equation so even the winner can the loser at times, the term driver's race will soon be meaningless or have far less value. Just think there are significant historical and competitive effects around manuals and how they relate to the driver and control that are just not the same and won't be ever again despite what we gain in newer automated and DCT types.

BEAR-AvHistory

This subtle & occasionally not so subtle subtext always manages to work its way out in the AT/MT threads. We drive stick so we are better drivers.

I still remember a time when everybody drove stick because an AT was quite rare till the mid 50’s & then in the middle & upper range cars. As many drivers back the where just as clueless as many of todays drivers are.

If Moss, Clark, Fangio or any other great drivers from the past was reincarnated into todays racing he would be driving a DCT to win not a MT for nostalgia.

MT’s are fun but they do not automatically, no pun intended, imbue the driver with superiority over his AT driving counterpart.

vbx

IMO Autos are better than Paddles. Paddles are a freaking gimmick lol. Talk about video game controls. There is zero feedback.

fsttyms1

And you get how much feed back from a Auto?? You have never driven a true DCT then.

fsttyms1

What is lame is that they couldnt find a way to modify the RLX7 DCT or the I4 DCT to fit/work with existing V6 platforms without the hybrid drivetrain and to only offer a Auto trans.

neuronbob

This debate is pointless. Most people drive ATs. Acura will almost certainly release a manual version of the car later. They have done the last two gens, and it's always later.

Further, I am thankful that Acura has joined the 21st century and added a DCT and more cogs to the AT. Maybe a DCT that will handle the V6's torque will eventually appear. They didn't have one, so they released the next best thing, more cogs in their AT.

I don't understand all the hate when late release of a manual is Acura's MO.

Besides, I need at least on AT in my stable so the wife can drive it.

internalaudit

Touche!

The V6 should have come with a DCT + torque converter if Honda wanted the V6 to be sportier.

internalaudit

Can anyone explain how the things in RED and to driving engagement and whether features like rev matching, VSA, etc. render many of these MT features kind of obsolete?

I understand MT is more engaging but it can be more tiring too. I still drive an 02 Civic with MT.

BEAR-AvHistory

Feedback/gimmick? Paddles are used because they are quicker to shift than a floor mounted stick. Less physical movement than pulling the AT shifter back. Finger tips move instead of the whole arm. Hands never leave the wheel.

You need to divorce the shifter style, Paddles or Floor Shifter from the equation. They function at two different speeds with the paddles being quicker, but the important thing is keeping your hands on the wheel.

What the car does with the electronic signal is something else. If the car has a crappy trans it has a crappy trans so faster input will do nothing for it.

The DCT is fast the new ZF 8/9 speeds are almost as fast the current 6MT is slow so Acura takes a big step forward with their new trans.

As for a later 6MT, why? They sold hardly any this last time around. High water mark for the 6MT was the 3G.

FWIW on MT feedback etc IMHO if you are thinking about shifting you are slow, you should be in the zone & working off muscle memory.

Also as fsttyms1 said about himself I am not a MT hater, just a realist who deals with "what is". The 135is has a 6MT as does the "in progress" Cobra. Its a fun nostalgia thing with me not a max performance oriented choice.

hadokenuh

Yeah this debate is pointless. All personal preference. Do I want a daily drive a MT? Probably not. But as a 2nd/fun car, definitely!

I don't know about you guys but everytime I can downshift-rev match perfectly on a MT, I feel priceless. Same thing when I heel-toe perfectly before a turn. When I dump the clutch (I know, stupid thing), it feels fun. Also not all MTs are easy to master. Honda and Mazda ones are easy. 370z MT is hard to drive smooth, same thing with Mustang GT when I tried it myself.

With a DCT, you'd just flap the left paddle to downshift and everything is ready. Duh, what else to do? Of course I don't track so I don't know how it's like having a DCT. But street fun wise, a MT is much better than a DCT.

winstrolvtec

Much of what a true manual does is obsolete with DCT's but not the many facets and forms of control it provides be it slower, less efficient, etc. So much of what you can do in terms of mechanical control in a manual vehicle is taken away by the many automated functions of an AT or DCT and that's besides selecting your own gears. It's really a preference based thing and whether one wants that and enjoys it or could do without or finds it's tiring, etc.


100%, let's make that clear. Although there are still some cases where the 6MT is the performance choice but not usually in the luxury scene. As you said, the whole racing and image thing plus people not wanting to learn, etc are big factors in why it is going away.

I still think if more brands utilized a 7MT with additional tooling and threw some marketing at it, since most don't even know they exist, and in the hands of good drivers, they could close the gap enough (or maybe in some cases all) to where it would still be a viable option for more people and they would sell more. So while they control both the product and the demand to a large extent, it's still a business and ultimately what they seem to want so unless the demand is there first, that likely won't happen. Perhaps more importantly, you can sell a DCT to a manual fan even die hard but not the other way around because only few can actually drive them.

Then again, the whole context of the thread and discussion has been as a DCT relates to a same version manual or on the same car. Of course, there is always usually the option of just going with a faster, better handling car in the first place, which just so happens to be in the form of a true manual as there are still enough of them and enough choices around even if it also comes in a faster DCT version. Again, a matter of preference.

Everyone wants the fastest or the "best" but one could come to the reality that you can't use much of it without a race track nearby so if it serves daily driving purposes or even occasional and you enjoy it more, it's nice to control your own gears as well as the clutch and engagement if one can stand giving up a little, especially if it's something you can easily mod anyway.

vbx

again just from my experience. I don't care about "faster shifting" as 100% of my driving is on the street. For me, the 6mt is more fun and I actually regret selling it and picking up a Q50 Sedan. My next car will be another 6mt. Most likely a coupe though.

And if you care about "speed" why buy a car with less hp than the previous gen? lol

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
My interests are a bit broader than pure speed, but I really like the DCT technology. But for the record according to BMW my 335is has 320bhp stock while the 435M-Sport has 342bhp stock. So its not a power down grade even though BMW fibs on its ratings putting out sandbagged numbers. Without a dyno on the 435M no way to tell how much power it actually has. The 320 rating on the 335is was grossly understated by BMW since my dyno runs were at 319whp which converts to 367bhp. BHP is the number used in the car adds & specs

Should I ever have interest in bulking up the car the same mods are available for both. Its my intention the 435 will not be moded as the 335 was. Sold all my mods. 435 will get just a different rear diffuser & black chrome exhaust tips.

The 435 has a much better handling package with the electronic shocks & other software improvements to make it a better all round ride than the 335.

The 2200lb 444bhp BOSS engine Cobra is now my quick car of choice. Its a 5 speed MT for ease of building. A DCT in the car to the purists would be sacrilege but a no brainer if it was actually a practical install. Computers & custom software required put it out of reach.

BTW I did say the MT was fun, I also said I drive one on a regular basis.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its all about ROI.

Porsche & GM for the Corvette, which is a cash cow, first can afford to do a 7MT development based on ROI & second the cars base customers are unique in their demand for a manual product. They are both sports cars. That level of demand does not really exist in the general sedan market. I think BMW is the only company left with a 6MT as the normal transmission in its cars.

What's interesting all the Le Mans, Daytona & Sebring wins Corvette has they were on DCT's even though none is offered retail. Porsche developed the 7MT then turned around & released its top performing GT3 as a DCT/PDK only car.

The 2015 Z-06 high performance Corvette will be released with an 8AT, I expect its a ZF derivative.

I don’t believe the overall demand is there for an Acura 6MT for the TLX. I think they put their bet on the 9AT since all the other “performance” sports sedans are running similar style transmissions.

Colin

Sportier then what? I'm willing to bet you haven't driven the 7DCT in the RLX hybrid. You certainly haven't driven the eight speed DCT in the four-cylinder or the nine speed transmission in the V-6. It's pretty lame to start passing judgment on something you haven't even tried.

Colin

It's obvious that they don't like the feel of a DCT on launch. This is why they've coupled it with either a hybrid drivetrain or a torque converter. Most likely they are expecting that the V-6 is going to be the volume car and they went with something that the "masses" will be most familiar with. Anyway, who says they didn't come up with something? Maybe they just decided it was the better transmission for that cars intended purpose?

Rocket_man

My theory is this.... when Honda pulled all its R&D budget in the economic downturn they impacted development of new transmissions. So when they realized they needed to develop the TLX, they didn't have many choices for the V6. Reuse the 6AT from the TL? Wow, how many people would be bitching about that here??? The 8DCT could not handle the power. So their only option for the V6 was to outsource it. This gave them an advanced transmission that helped in marketing and fuel economy and could meet (barely I guess) the timeline for the TLX. Just a theory.

This weekend I watched "Senna" which was running on cable. In the documentary is a lot of on-board camera footage of him driving. Pretty impressive.... but I'm used to seeing modern F1 on-board footage and when I saw him take his hand off the wheel to shift I suddenly remembered how it used to be not so long ago. To see him drive that car, the steering wheel all over the place, then take his hand off to shift, even in the short amount of time it took him.... I'm sure if he had the option of 'paddle shifting' he would have taken it in a heart beat.

If anyone hasn't seen that documentary it is highly recommended. You can find it on YouTube.

docboy

The manual vs DCT debate is indeed pointless. We've been down this road before. No one is going to convince any one of anything.

FWIW, I test drove a Panamera Turbo with PDK, 991 C with PDK, and a 997.1tt with tiptronic.

Yes, the PDK transmissions shifted faster than the tiptronic, and I admit I cannot shift as fast as in a manual compared to the PDK.

Aside from the shifting speed, the PDK did nothing for me. The PDK and the tiptronic "felt" the same. Lifeless, mindless finger tapping, and boring. Plus the PDK transmission couldn't hold 2nd gear when I slowed to ~5mph; it shifted automatically 1st gear. So it's not true DCT (at least PDK anyways) gives you total control of the vehicle.

Who knows, maybe in a few years if my left knee goes out, or if my right hand develops carpal tunnel, or if I decide to track my car (which I don't) I might more tempted to go the DCT route. But until then, 6 MT it is.

internalaudit

I think many would agree that regular AT with torque converter is more reliable than wet dct, which is then more reliable than dry dct.

May be different with Honda but so far that is where they stand in terms of reliability.

Nedmundo

This reminds me of an old Steve Thompson piece in Autoweek, in which he explained the satisfaction of driving MT partly comes from using all four limbs in driving, so it's stimulating more muscles, nerves, etc., and providing a more physically balanced experience. It's an interesting theory, and there might be something to it. I think a DCT and some sport AT's can replicate some of the sensory pleasures of MT, such as the sound of rev matched downshifts, but of course not the physical aspects of it.

fsttyms1

No one is saying otherwise about why they added a torque converter to the DCT, They are saying that they havent given us an option or hint to an option of any other trans as an option. Or could it be that they didnt want to or couldnt find a way. As for saying they didnt come up with anything? Maybe they did, BUT at this time they havent said anything in the press release of the vehicle of an "up coming" option.

CJ Majesty

I'm about to blow chunks listening to you f*€|<$ defending the clutchless gearbox. To go so far as to suggest that a dct does the same as stick and better is disgusting.

You guys arent drivers, your motorist. Theautomotive industry forcing you to use your car the way they see fit. Control is being taken away from the driver. And drivers are becoming more detatched. (Radar cruise control,cars that park them selves, cars that brake for you! Cars that wake you up, back up sensors) people start to rely on these things. When you look at all the shyt that comes in cars now you might as well have a laziboy chair in place of a drivers seat. Ride the fucking bus.

I need my third pedal to tell the car WHEN TO GO... Not when to stop!

The computer in the dct may be smart, but it doesnt have EYES. So it doesnt see what I see. Braking in automatic cars during an emergency braking situations I can feel the moment when the car cuts the engine and focuses on braking. And it sure as hell isnt when I put my foot on the brake pedal. Thats where milliseconds are important.

I dont care to scroll up and mention names, but please explain to me, at what point can you cut the throttle on a dct? Ive driven volkswagens dsg and the only thing I can say for it is that the upshifts are quicker than the 03 TL type s my mother had.
Can a dct go from 6-3 on a sweeping highway exit, instead of 6-5-4-3? I dont give a f*€k about these millisecond up and down shifts because when you add up 6-5-4-3. Its still not faster than my hand going from 5th-3rd.

You talk about speed, but you have a car with a more powerful engine available(V6) and you put the "sporty" transmission in the car with less power(i4) and talk to me about millisecond upshifts. Meanwhile the current V6 TL has a 6mt. I guess that goes back to the TL not being a sports car because it has 4 doors right? (To whoever the f*ck said that bullshyt)

I dont give a shyt what the GT3 is coming in. Everybody is on the same page in a race. GT3 racers dont have to drive on the road with debutants texting on cell phones and soccer moms turning around screaming at kids.

I drive my car around town and in heavy traffic. I lug the car along. The person behind my does not see brake lights every 2 seconds because my car is not going on its own. That shyt causes traffic.
Most people I come across that go from stick is auto is laziness, they are sick of responding to traffic conditions on the road. Thats everybody braking constantly because they are telling there cars when to stop.

Keep making excuses for the auto companies, and they will eventually give you a car you dont have to drive at all...I mean when you think about it who really needs a steering wheel...right?

Ken1997TL

^^^

You're not going to win friends with personal insults and unnecessary cursing. FYI.

As for the DCT's, they are vastly superior to a MT technically.

MY argument for a manual transmission is visceral. It's all about feel and the fluid of motions involved. Personally on a sports car, I'd prefer a 6MT that was like my S2000's over flappy paddles. A sports car, to me at least, is about feel and sensation. My S2000 is FUN, not necessarily fast. Anything can be made fast, few can make something truly enjoyable and involving to drive.

Acura_Dude

ReLaX

BEAR-AvHistory

Does anyone think this guy is really 35. Reads almost like a high school lunch room debate, but with less correct content.

2011TL

I was thinking more like middle school level, maybe 12-14 years of age.