vhdoshi

So, the new 2015 TLX with SH-awd has 290 horsepower

while the old 2014 TL with SH-awd had 305 horsepower !

which sucks!

I understand this is because the 2015 TLX w/sh-awd has a 3.5 L V-6 engine

and the 2014 TL w/sh-awd had a 3.7 L V-6 engine.

But most people will look at this as a downgrade.

The older outgoing model had 15 more horsepower !

I am gonna assume the new 2015 TLX will probably have less torque also

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

This is so the 2018 TLX Type-S can have 320hp.

Rocketsfan

A lot of stupid people drive really nice cars.

So does this : http://www.tractordata.com/farm-trac...00-photos.html

Ironically, the outgoing model and the tractor are both heavier, too ...


Why assume? The numbers have already been released.

seaeyes

But TLX is lighter, and it has a 9 speed tranny. So TLX v6 is actually 0.5s faster than TL in 0-60.

komplexZ

2006 tsx 2.4 - 205hp
2015 tlx 2.4 - 206hp

Took 9 years to figure out how to massage 1hp out of that engine...
ok it does make more torque now, which is better for drivability, but come on, the only people that talk go around bragging about torque are diesel truck guys =)

Nexx

this and maybe more. the 2014 mdx did the nurburgring 8 seconds faster than 2013 model which had 10 more ponies... too many people are fascinated by peak numbers on paper. im more concerned about performance numbers.

TheAcAvenger

The TLX V6 FWD is more powerful than the TL V6 FWD and the car is lighter. The 9 speed tranny is a traditional automatic with a torque converter. Outside of being lighter, it's not a performance advantage. There will be a significant weight savings between the TLX V6 AWD and the TL V6 AWD... but don't be surprised if it fails to be faster than the outgoing 6MT SH-AWD car.

I think people are overhyping the impact of the transmission and weight here. There's nothing "high performance" about a 9 speed automatic. And while the car is lighter than the outgoing model, the 4th gen was a pig. This just makes the car competitive weight wise. While the TLX will be faster than the outgoing model (weight, slight bump in power), it's still not enough to put it with the head of its class.

If you look at dynos of the S4, 335, G37, and IS350 and then compare them to stock quarter mile times and trap speeds, they come out in order of what the cars put down to the wheels in terms of horsepower in torque... It's not like the TLX weighs 3200 pounds and has a 7 speed dual clutch. It's not going to be a dramatic difference.

And the MDX's nurburghring time has very little to do with a change in engine. I don't think anyone here is going to be taking their TLX to the Ring. I'm pretty sure more people care about who's going to win your standard american straight line dick measuring contest.

I don't see why everyone cant just agree that the TLX was the slowest car in its class in a straight line before and it's still going to be the slowest car in its class now. It has some other things going for it over the 4th gen though and, if its priced right, has other things going for it over its rivals

winstrolvtec

You could see 15 less hp or if everything remained the same or as is with the current model, the "old" 4G SH model has 50 some more hp based on what the new car is expected to do in acceleration, autos vs auto. Not happy they didn't give the SH the 310 hp version from the RLX but considering that without a totally revised J engine with DOHC and much higher rev range or that twin turbo in the GT car, or hybrid SH version, the extra 10, 15 or even 20 hp from the RLX wasn't gonna do much in terms of better competing with an 335 or S4 in real life anyway. Certainly looks better on paper though.

Don't know about slowest car in it's class, not that I disagree however, the car needs another high performance variant if you ask me but that's another discussion. Just that there are other cars in it's mid sized "category" people might consider as well and there are smaller, lighter, faster, more powerful and more expensive "class" competitors and others that aren't more expensive. So varying trims and equipment go with that as well.

At price and equipment, you may find the 328 and A4 2.0T, IS250 as a competitor, you may also consider a 6MT version TL still around today (for now) instead of an auto, or you could see a bare bones 335 or S4 instead, so it depends on perspective and definition of or inclusion of "class" really but make no mistake about it's no 335 or S4 in a straight-line and likely won't be, not that it necessarily needs or wants to be either and 20 hp now or before wasn't changing that anyway.

Timmy18

True, but the TLX's K24 is a different K24 than the one in the TSX.

2004-2008, K24A2
2009-2014, K24Z3
2015-yyyy, K24W7

The K24W7 is a version of the Accords K24W3 found in the Accord Sport.

So technically, power is up 16 ponies and torque is down 3 twisties (190HP, 185LB-FT Accord Sport) vs the TSX's K24Z3 where power is up 5 ponies and torque is up 5 twisties.

I just KNOW reviewers will say exactly what you did when really they're comparing to the wrong engine even though they don't know any better because a 2.4L was in the car it replaces...

But yes.. ONLY 1HP and marginal torque with premium fuel over the past 9 years!?! Better be a miracle engine.. lol

Rocket_man

The TLX is faster to 60 and gets better fuel economy. Most people will look at that as a UPgrade.

HP is just a number and completely over rated. If all you want is a car with the highest HP number there are plenty of choices, and none of them will be a Honda/Acura product.

KeithL

It appears Acura is not focused on the driving enthusiast. If you loom at most of the competitors they all offer either a sport package or sport variant model. Funny how at the unveil they open with a a video showing the car being driven like a sports car, yet they do not offer a configuration that truly targets that segment. Sure SH-AWD does that a little, but that is the only feature on the car that does. Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, MB and Audi all offer specific sport packages or models that combine cosmetic and or features that target the enthusiast driver. Some offer sport packages on the main model then sport models ( Audi's A/S line, BMW M). While I do think Acura is headed in the right direction the market is too competitive to dip their toe back in the pool, they need to be all in and truly "Advance" the product.

graphicguy

Ummmm....if the numbers on paper are true, 0-60 in around 5 sec, 21MPG-31MPG for the V6, P-AWS or SH AWD, that's pretty impressive, regardless of who you compare it to. Give or take a tenth of a sec, and those are the same numbers for a 335ix, S4, IS350, etc.

A loaded up Advance SH AWD should come in right around $48K-$49K. Load a 335ix or an S4 to the same level, and you're looking at $10K MSRP more. Back off on some of the "nanny" options in the Advance and just go with a SH AWD Tech, and the delta increases even more.

TheAcAvenger

It's an upgrade over the 4g sure... but if Acura wants to actually sell significant quantities of the vehicle, they should focus on upgrading over the cars that actually do sell and not their outgoing flop.

4th Gen TL: Launch year: 33.6k; 2013: 24.3k
2nd Gen TSX: Launch year: 28.9; 2013: 17.5k

3rd Gen TL: Launch year: 77.9k; 2008: 46.7k

Infiniti G: At launch: 71.8k (2007); 2013: 57.9k
Lexus IS: At launch: 54.2k (2006); 2013: 35.0k
B8 A4/S4: At launch (2008): 43.3k; 2013: 42.1k
F10 3 series: At launch (2013): 119.5k
E90 3 series: At launch (2006): 120.2k; 2012: 99.6k


Why would they use the 4th gen tl as a benchmark?

I still don't understand how hp is just a "figure" and is overrated. 0-60 is just a number and is overrated. It has a whole lot more to do with gearing and launch technique than it does to true power. I'd think more people would care which car is faster from 30-60 or 40-80... passing situations, etc. In these situations, HP/TQ can pretty much sum it up for you. I don't think many people are drag racing from lights these days.

Rocket_man

Acura is selling a car, not an engine. There are hundreds of factors people consider when they buy a car. If HP sold then why did the 4G TL sales numbers drop? It had more HP than the 3G after all. HP/TQ does not pretty much sum it up. That 18 wheelers next to you on the highway has more HP/TQ but you can certainly run circle around it. The TLX is lighter and has a more sophisticated transmission, so all these factors (and more I assume) add up to better performance and better fuel economy. Those are the biggest numbers on the sticker after all and people do pay attention to them. A test drive is going to tell a buyer whether the car performs up to their needs, very few will make a decision based on a paper number and how they think the car should drive. But a lot of those are enthusiast and on web sites like this. I barely have 200HP in my car and I have no problem passing on the highway.

If people were buying HP/TQ then the IS should never be selling more than the 4G TL, but it does because they are buying a package and they like the IS package better, even with less horsepower.

Only time will tell how the overall package sells or doesn't sell. I bet they will sell far more of these than the 4G TL... even with the lower HP. I think the most important number related to how well this car will sell isn't the HP number, it is the MSRP number.

TheAcAvenger

Yeah, that's all true. But when the 3rd gen came out, it was the most powerful car in that group (330i, A4 3.2, G35, IS300...). When the 4th gen came out, it was the least powerful car in that group (335i, S4 became the V6 A4, G37, IS350).

If you can't justify the price difference on the better-driving germans, how do you justify an equal price difference compared to the accord if the accord has all the same features, is only down 10hp, and takes regular gas? If you're not picking the japanese alternatives because they're quite ugly and youre not picking the 335i/S4 because they're more expensive, then you're probably a pretty sensible person. And a sensible person is going to have a hard time paying 38-42k for a loaded TLX when an accord touring can be had for 34k.

And again, it's lighter compared to a 4th gen, it's not light. It has an advanced transmission? They just added gears. That doesn't mean it performs better, it means it gets better fuel economy. We don't know anything about the transmission other than it's lighter and has more gears. It still has a torque converter, so it's not doing anything to cut drivetrain loss. We're talking 1-2 mpg here. If I average 28mpg on 15 gallons and you average 30mpg on 15 gallons, I got 420 miles on my tank and you did 450. That's pretty much 1 gallon of gas or $4 dollars. If i fill up once a week, that's $208 dollars/year. Over 5 years, the gas you'd save getting a TLX over a 335 is worth about 1000 dollars over 5 years.

In comparison, if I have an accord and I get 28mpg for regular gas, and you get 30mpg on premium, for us both to do 450 miles, I need ~16 gallons and you need 15 gallons, but for every gallon you buy, you're paying at least 40 cents more than me. For 15 gallons, that's 6 dollars, which is more than that extra gallon of gas I had to buy to cover your extra mpg.

So this engine is just one giant compromise. I'd assume most people are either going to get an Accord for 34k if they care about fuel economy/price/tech more than performance or buy a 335/S4 if they care more about performance. Heck, you can get a "new" g37 for pretty cheap these days and you still won't be missing many of the key features in a TLX.

George Knighton

Exactly.

I think that people are going to be surprised how much quicker the four cylinder + DCT will be, while getting better fuel economy.

I know from my personal experience (with the J35Y4 direct injection + 6 speed auto) that their tuning these days is excellent.

In the first place, I'm averaging 25.5 mpg after 8,000 miles...and I do *not* baby the car.

But in the second place, the mid range performance is startling. I'll floor it on a secondary road to get around somebody doing less than the speed limit. I'd have expected to jump from maybe 35 to maybe 60 in the space and time that I took, but I'll look down and see 85 or 90.

Give them a chance. Wait for the reviews and hard figures.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised where they've gone with tuning. :-)

musty hustla

Exterior AND interior design drive sales. Look at the A4, mediocre horsepower but people love the look.

The 4G and TLX are hideous compared to the 3G. Performance hasn't changed much between the three cars.

Engineering isn't Acura problem, it's the packaging.

Ken1997TL

Why?

Emissions

Benefits of the new setup:

More torque, more and better gear ratios. Lighter car will also increase power to weight ratio.

The same thing happened with the MDX.

mylove4cars

Ditto,
The benefit of the doubt. Oh, and a third variant of course.

beach109

Look at the MDX and any modern vehicle. Higher horsepower rating does not mean better or faster, when skillful engineering reducing weight and increasing usable torque with a larger range transmission...everything adds up.


Look at the new MDX with less weight, less horsepower, and yet it's faster and incredibly more fuel efficient. Same recipe for the TLX.


Horsepower wars mean little. Real world performance and a faster, more refined car with larger gear range is key.

BEAR-AvHistory

Actual pounds per WHP, shape of the power curve, gearing & tires are the key items, not a pure BHP number, especially when a lot of manufactures lie about it anyway.

A quick, average Joe, 1/4 mile can put everything into place.

As for handling IMHO I don't think anyone can drive on the street in a manner that really pushes street cars to a 9/10 or 10/10 point where they can overpower the suspension, unless the car really sucks, they are very stupid or they are the Stig.

mylove4cars

Agreed to a certain extend,

"Actual pounds per WHP, shape of the power curve, gearing & tires are the key items"

Add Hp in to your equation and what do you have?

BEAR-AvHistory

Not sure what you mean but WHP is the horsepower actually getting to the driving wheels. The power curve tells you where to shift & the broader/flatter it is the better. Major advantage of your favorite thing, Twin Turbos.

Different systems lose different amounts from the crank (BHP) through the drive train but 15% is a good enough for government work to cover the loss. My 444BPH Coyote shows 395WHP on a chassis dyno.

BMW lies about BHP. My 335is is listed as 320BHP but chassis dynos at 319WHP. Factor in 15%+ & you are looking at 368BHP. Its one of the reasons low rated BMW engines seem to perform so well.

The base 300BHP typically chassis dynos at 275WHP which is closer to the 15% factor for 316BHP.

Not trying to say anything about BMW but the only way to see what any car is really producing is to spend $75 or so for a dyno session or make some 1/4 mile runs then factor weight & terminal speed to get a good horsepower approximation.

Agree with above, its not the raw HP number but how its packaged.

TheAcAvenger

I think i'd argue that Honda has been known to advertise a small hp change when a much larger one is actually present. For all of you chanting gearing and weight, I present the now-infamous Accord example.

In 2008, Honda sold a "268 hp/248 lbft" Accord V6 with a 5AT. In 2013 it was replaced with a "278hp/252lbft" Accord V6 with a 6AT. When TOV overlayed their dynos, they found this:



Now, Motortrend did a quarter mile with the 2008 5AT in 15.0 seconds at 94mph. The 2013? MT did a 6MT 14.0 at 101, C/D did a 6AT 14.1 at 101, Edmunds did a 14.3 at 98... but let's not pretend that there isn't a dramatic power difference between the two. And let's not forget the new accord v6 is claiming 34/21 mpg.

The 2013 Accord V6 with a 6AT.


The 2013 Accord V6 with a 6MT.


So there is indeed reason for optimists to think there is more than meets the eye to the TLX V6 figures getting tossed around, as they could signify greater gains at the wheels.

rxavier1979

A tenth of a second??? Are you kidding me???
Let's give the benefit of the doubt to Acura and say the TLX is rated at 5.0 seconds. What about the competition's sports/performance packages?

0-60 Times:
2015 BMW M3 - 4.1
2014 Mercedes AMG CLA 45 - 4.2
2014 Audi S4 - 4.4

The point is that Acura doesn't offer the consumer a flagship performance model for the small group of people who want it and can afford it. I like my 2013 TL. It's great! She's always there for me when I need her and does everything I expect her to do. But what's missing is that fire in the sheets!!! She is a dead lay!! She's the one your mother wants you to be with but ironically, she doesn't get your motor running...

My fiancé LOVES my TL!!! Quite frankly, it bores me to tears!!!! Not like my old 2007 335i with the stage 2 Dinan chip flash!!! Look, the truth is that Acura has a great lineup for the majority, but they fail to excite the kinds of people that actually join a forum to talk about... Cars...

Quite honestly, once my lease is up in a year, I'm going to either order myself a CLA 45 or just go get myself into an Audi S4!!! There is a reason why those cars cost more. You get what you pay for. Believe me, if Acura could get away with selling their TLs for 55-60k, they would do it in a heart beat!! They're not cheaper because they're trying to do right by you. If you take a fully loaded TL and line it up with an Audi a4 2.0 or BMW 328i, then they compare. But even then, I find the latter to be a more enjoyable ride.

They should have a limited production TLX - S that sells for 60k and gives those who want it the choice to get it, and those who don't, still get the benefit of an altered image from the flagship model. I'm talking 350-370 HP with a true DCT 7spd transmission. 8 and 9 is way too many for a sports car. 7 spd with 6 and 7 being touring overdrive gears. And make it look like a true sports sedan. Not like an Accord dressed for a wedding...

TheAcAvenger

People keep sleeping on the 3rd gen.. but really. This was 2007
The standard model did a 14.4 @ 99mph according to C/D. The Type S did 14.1 @ 101 according to C/D (and was featured in their 2008 Quickest Sedans article). That's the same output as the Accord from 2013.



Meanwhile, the 4th gen SH-AWD 6AT did 14.8 @ 97mph (MotorTrend) with the 6MT at 13.9 @ 99.6 (MotorTrend). The front wheel drive version did 14.9 @ 94.8mpg (Edmunds)

I think the 2nd gen and 3rd gen fans have a legitimate gripe that Acura isn't coming out with something dramatically more capable than what we bought 6-10 years ago. 200lbs off of a 4th gen automatic still makes it 20 pounds heavier than a 3rd gen automatic, so they're weight argument is moot. A 9 speed automatic doesn't make up for the performance loss of not offering a 6MT, so this whole transmission argument is moot. So here's to hoping that there are underlying wheel power gains that are more significant than the advertised numbers.

BEAR-AvHistory

Your pictures did not show up on my machine so I will just say this about times. Mags flog the hell out of a car & post the best they get. Its been rare to none that guys with stock TL’s have been able to match or even come close to magazine times/speeds. Even modified TL's rarely can equal magazine stock times.

Also unless they are back to back runs on the same car all you can do is take an average & leave it at that.

Anyone with any bracket racing experience knows all things being equal you add a few tenths to the afternoon elimination breakout time over what you did in the morning time trials because the car will slow down as the day gets hotter.

TheAcAvenger

I don't think Acura needs to take it to M3/AMG levels. (I don't think the S4 competes with those two either, as Audi dumped their V6 A4 and moved the S4 downmarket. We just happen to live in a place where we cant get our hands on the RS4). I think you either offer a Type-S variant that is as fast as a 335i/S4/G37/IS350/C400 in all situations or you have to make your standard V6 model as fast as the 335i/S4/G37/IS350. If they announce a type-S variant, then i'm sure a lot of the whining would cease. I think a lot of the doomsday posts (mine included) are rooted in the grounds we don't think Honda could even make such a car anymore. I know people keep using the MDX example and I just showed the Accord example, but as far as the TL is concerned, the 4th gen was no faster than the 3rd gen and all we're reading about is an accord engine (which is no more powerful than the 3rd gen, producing a car that is no faster than the 3rd gen) with a different intake manifold and 0.1 a increase in compression.

I feel like an arse beating this dead horse because I feel the same way about Infiniti and Lexus. They all need new engines. BMW is using a straight 6 twin turbo, Audi is using a supercharged V6, Mercedes is bringing out a V6 twin turbo.. they all get comparable gas mileage to the Japanese, but they're all noticeably faster. I'm fine because my RL will easily last another hundred thousand miles until they can roll out an entire new generation of cars, but it would be nice if they made a new car that appealed to people with heavy feet like they used to.

TheAcAvenger

I agree with you and I wasn't trying to make a point about absolute times. I'm not trying to say "if you go get an accord V6, you too will do 14.1 at 101." My point is that there is, generally, a difference between the accord v6 of today and yesteryear, but TL's haven't really changed in straight line performance in the last 10 years

SSFTSX

TLX with summer performance tire should get under 5 second. even Accord FWD with all season setup get 0-60 in 5.5 second.

BEAR-AvHistory

Where is the .5+ coming from? Its a pretty big jump.

Colin

Last year the A4 sold 36K in the US market. TL and TSX combined were ~44K. TLX will probably sell no less than that once it has a full year under it's belt (remember 2014 will only have >6 months of sales). Personally, I don't see all the fuss about Audi styling, yes it's clean and uncluttered but the grill has to go. And, based on sales figures, I see no evidence that it's driving sales.

TheAcAvenger

I think it's better looking than the other cars in its class, but the A4 is also overpriced/underpowered. Again. I think it matters more than people think

winstrolvtec

Acura said the .5. While they have never done a great job of stated acceleration figures for themselves, they have been very good about the differences or gains in their models.

While the TLX won't be tops in class or range in acceleration, it will be very competitive nonetheless as should the car in terms of overall performance. IMO this is good for a car that is typically larger, in most cases heavier, uses an NA motor, is FWD or FWD based and doesn't use a dedicated (from the ground up) platform, not to mention it's aimed slightly higher than many of those other cars, whether it does a good enough job at that or not.

Still, I won't underplay the fact that for a few years anyway, the 3G was the top car in range, in not only hp but also acceleration figures. Think that helped drive a lot of sales and created the tuner image for the car. The TLX appears to have the same formula going, trading acceleration for a much better and more dynamically capable drivetrain. So in theory, it should return a lot of the same success, as far as helping the brand's overall image and attracting a large chunk of enthusiasts from other luxury brands, this is probably not the car for that though, neither was the 3G or previous models.

As for the rest of the discussion, it's hard to base much from the 4G auto models and acceleration because there has been too much of a spread in them. Think the trap has been the only consistent thing within a normal range but E/T has been .5 to more apart. C AMG and M3 are honestly out of the TL market and even if not totally in some instances, it's still not meant to be compared to those versions.

And I don't think a 6MT is improving anything in terms of acceleration in the new models and I'm all for one even if slower, crossing my fingers for next year. If it was a 7AT, I would say maybe but in most cases at about 8 or more gears, it appears you need a 7MT just to keep up, if that. And I think the way you at least try to start selling a TL advance version in the $55k-$60k area as others do is close the acceleration gap and to start offering a version above that at around that price now. The NSX, AWD in the ILX and a few more variants should help the brand's image in many peoples' minds.

mylove4cars

The TLX looks like a nice package, the problem with it is again they follow the same direction.

No third variant for the sport minded. Without Turbo's Acura could easily bring that SH-AWD V6 up to 345 HP and 325 Lbs-Torque plus 6 MT some more weight loss plus factory aftermarket parts availability (Not forgetting the exhaust....) and make this baby rock.

Colin

Not saying looks don't matter. But the correlation between looks and sales was drawn and I was suggesting that the A4's 'stunning' looks haven't helped its sales. Even the "ugly duckling" 4G did 33.5K, 34k, 31k and 33.5k in each of it's first 4 years on the market.

mylove4cars

Looks are subjective, I would say the 4G is different looking, which I believe make it stand out.

When the 4G was released some journalist drilled the 4G in to the ground and some anti Acura individuals stirred the pot. This way the 4G became the black sheep of the family (the ugly duckling) IMHO the 4G was ahead of its time in the total concept.

BEAR-AvHistory

Against what base line? Its should be quicker if enough weight was taken out to compensate for the loss of power but high 4 seconds is not easy.

I added about 50WHP (320/370) to drop .5 & about 90WHP (320/410) total to drop another .3 to 12.2 over the quarter. Don't know what my 0-60 time is but the 1/8 mile 0-93 is 8.2 seconds. The low 4 second M-3's like listed above also run in the low 90's @ 8 seconds.

Be good to see them in the 4's but the RLX 377BHP is at 4.8/4.9 with a lot more power.

Rocket_man

When Acura decided to cancel their rear wheel drive platform they established a strategic limitation for the brand. I don't think there are going to be many buyers of $60K TLX's with 400HP driving the front wheels. Its just not going to happen. Wish as much as you want, Acura decided they are just not going to be that car company. If a buyer wants that kind of performance and wants to pay the $60K+ price there are well established brands that also carry the image that can sell that kind of car. Acura is not that brand. They are going after the market that you would expect based on the car they developed. They developed a nice car with many luxury features that has very nice performance and gets great gas mileage and (hopefully) in a reliable package that will return a lot of value to their customers. To hope that Acura will also be the a car company to develop a rival to the M3 is not not realistic thinking. You might as well wish the Sun would rise in the West. It's just not going to happen. If you want an M3, Acura would probably give you directions to the nearest BMW dealer. They are not trying to win this customer. There are fans of the brand that may want them to produce this car, but you will just be disappointed. If this is the car you want you should go get it. BMW and Audi make some great high cars performance cars. No one will begruge you if you want this car, more power to you. But if you are looking for Acura to build it, it is just not going to happen.

Even Acura's 'supercar' NSX is a hybrid. I don't think they plan to compete with Lamborghini or Ferrari, it is Acura's interpretation.

To wish the car to be something it is not is futile. It is what it is. Any car purchase is a compromise. If the compromises are too much for you, than you should not buy the car, look for something that better suits your needs. The TLX isn't perfect for me, but I suspect the compromises I can live with. Hopefully the price is right for the amount of compromise I'm asked to make. If so then we have a sale. If not then we won't. Simple.

BEAR-AvHistory

One of the limiting factors if not the limiting factor is even with really good technology FWD is just about all done at 300HP in a street car.

That's the reason Audi is 4X4 & the higher powered Acura's are 4X4. Infinity & Lexus went the traditional way with RWD as power increased passed 300 HP.