PC question, XP or Vista . . .?
02-02-2007, 08:11 PM
#121
Big Block go VROOOM!
Originally Posted by SiGGy
So some hacker screws with a video driver, releases it on the net. And now everyone who has that card is fucked. And if it's older hardware that new drivers aren't being written for it's a total loss.
02-02-2007, 08:19 PM
#122
Senior Moderator
02-03-2007, 12:16 AM
#123
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
After reading how Vista is going to fuck everything up for everyone; this is pissing me off.The movie companies get to dictate hardware design on video cards? WTF?
Hardware costs are going to skyrocket from Vistas design.
And reading about how MS will blacklist drivers for any hardware that are considered "bad/comprimised" is scary too. And how vista disables your Optical/Spif 5.1 output when you play protected content renders Vista useless unless you spend a ton of audio interconnects.
So some hacker screws with a video driver, releases it on the net. And now everyone who has that card is fucked. And if it's older hardware that new drivers aren't being written for it's a total loss.
I'm only 1/2 way through that article, I had to take a break.
At this point...
Fuck VISTA, FUCK MICROSOFT. I won't be switching anytime soon... this "upgrade" is a SERIOUS downgrade.
You're not really bringing up disabling the s/pdif connection are you!! I mean that is so old and I mean at least 8 years old. MS been doing it that long (since Windows ME) and hey guess what's it's not just MS it's every other manufacturer in the world, why because hollywood requires them to if they wan't to play the new formats. If you have a DVD-A or SACD player (I happen to have one of each) go stick in a disc and select the hi-quality version of either disc and try to play it over your optical or even coaxial connection. I guarantee you that you can't do it!! Now you can play the CD version of a hybrid SACD over the optical or even the 48kHz/16-bit version of the DVD-A over optical but no DSD or 96/24 or 192/24 audio is every leaving an optical jack on any device EVER!! Hollywood won't allow it, and if the manufacturer didn't do it than they wouldn't be able to play either formats at all, which to them isn't a solution. There's no bargaining with hollywood it's like the Frank Sinatra song "All or Nothing at All". I have a DVD-A player from 2000 or 2001 (Pioneer Elite DV-38a) and it won't play DVD-A over the optical, neither will the DV-59avi I have. In fact the DV-59avi one has a dedicated DHCP-capable i.Link port that's certified to carry DVD-A and SACD audio. MS is not going above and beyond the required copy protection scheme in order to screw you over as much as possible, that's rediculous! Yeah that's a great way to keep customers. Are you telling me that if you stuck in a DVD-A in a Mac or Linux that they'd output the audio over s/pdif!?!? Cause if so then you're wrong!! What do you want MS to do not be capable of displaying hi-def movies, yeah that's very smart of them. As soon as they do that everyone else in the world will support and laugh at MS for being behind and being an old fuddy duddy!! Can you imagine the stupic "I'm a mac" commercial for that one!! MS might dominate the computer world but they don't dominate the consumer electronic market nowhere even close, they don't have to power to say no to hollywood in this regard. How many people have media center pc in there homes, not that many. How many people prefer to watch a movie at the computer in an office chair than on the couch? I'd say hardly any, so if maybe all the on manufacturers of consumer players band together to fight hollywood then maybe something would happen but MS definitely can't do it by themselves since they are a very small percent of this market.
Oh and it doesn't cost much to implement HDCP capability it's only 4.5 cents per device, and for HDMI license it's $10,000 per year but HDMI isn't necessary since hi-def can be transmitted over DVI. But still $10,000 for a company that makes thousands of devices that's still pennies per devices nothing close to skyrocketing hardware costs.
I'm not an MS lover, i'm just a lover of common sense and the truth.
Bill Gates takes a Jab at DRM
02-03-2007, 12:25 AM
#124
The Creator
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I challenge you to list one device in the entire world that legally transmits a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray signal to a monitor or TV and isn't HDCP capable. You can't do it, it doesn't exist.
Microsoft's own Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD add-on does that. Un-protected 1080p over VGA.
Truth.
02-03-2007, 02:38 AM
#125
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I got to give it to you you're right!! (you get reps, like you need them) I wonder if the vga has macrovision, which if you don't remember is what causes your dvds to look all distorted when you run your video output from your dvd player through your VCR before it reaches the TV. The reason it doesn't have HDCP is because HDCP is only for digital connections I mean it's in the name High-Bandwidth Digital Conent Protection.
As I mentioned in my last post that you couldn't output DVD-A or SACD over optical because it was an unprotected DIGITAL connection. So what did you have to do to listen to this high quality audio since there was no way at the time to transmit it digitally? Well what you had to do (myself included) was to run 6 analog audio cables one for each of the 5.1 channels from the back of my DVD-A source to my Receiver, Pre-amp or whatever. But the deal with this was that at the time there was very little or no bass management in these DVD-A players so the bass sucked!! Well the only solution was to convert the high quality analog signal back into digital to apply bass management via the DSPs in the receiver and then back into analog again. Now hopefully -if your receiver didn't suck of course and had high quality ADCs and DACs- this conversion solved you bass problem but the additional conversions lead to a loss of fidelity. This is similiar to what's happening now with your VGA connection. The 360 takes the digital signal converts it to analog (VGA) and then when it reaches your display -unless it's a CRT but still quite possible even if it is CRT- is converted back into digital since LCDs, plasmas, DLP, etc all work in the digital realm. Now with CRT if you convert the analog signal to digital it's gonna have to convert it again before it's displayed since CRT's work in the analog realm. So you actually have a little bit of loss in quality over VGA which can result in a loss of detail compared to an all digital HDCP compliant connection.
With VGA it's
D -> A -> D
and possibly
D -> A -> D -> A
while with HDCP it's
D -> D
Now also from what I've read the DVD forum mandates that all analog connections not output DVD video at any higher rate than 480p so I'm curious if you can watch DVDs upsampled to 1080i/p over your VGA? Now I'm pretty sure that rule has been broken before. I believe V inc with the Bravo D1 (which was HUGE on AVS forum back in the cut), and I think momitsu where companies that did this. I don't think they did it for very long, I don't know of a player that does it nowadays but then I'm not into the HT market much anymore.
Also, in the same way you proved me wrong you proved me right, and that's that MS isn't out to get you and is going above and beyond what hollywood requires when it comes to copy protection as other seem to think.
As I mentioned in my last post that you couldn't output DVD-A or SACD over optical because it was an unprotected DIGITAL connection. So what did you have to do to listen to this high quality audio since there was no way at the time to transmit it digitally? Well what you had to do (myself included) was to run 6 analog audio cables one for each of the 5.1 channels from the back of my DVD-A source to my Receiver, Pre-amp or whatever. But the deal with this was that at the time there was very little or no bass management in these DVD-A players so the bass sucked!! Well the only solution was to convert the high quality analog signal back into digital to apply bass management via the DSPs in the receiver and then back into analog again. Now hopefully -if your receiver didn't suck of course and had high quality ADCs and DACs- this conversion solved you bass problem but the additional conversions lead to a loss of fidelity. This is similiar to what's happening now with your VGA connection. The 360 takes the digital signal converts it to analog (VGA) and then when it reaches your display -unless it's a CRT but still quite possible even if it is CRT- is converted back into digital since LCDs, plasmas, DLP, etc all work in the digital realm. Now with CRT if you convert the analog signal to digital it's gonna have to convert it again before it's displayed since CRT's work in the analog realm. So you actually have a little bit of loss in quality over VGA which can result in a loss of detail compared to an all digital HDCP compliant connection.
With VGA it's
D -> A -> D
and possibly
D -> A -> D -> A
while with HDCP it's
D -> D
Now also from what I've read the DVD forum mandates that all analog connections not output DVD video at any higher rate than 480p so I'm curious if you can watch DVDs upsampled to 1080i/p over your VGA? Now I'm pretty sure that rule has been broken before. I believe V inc with the Bravo D1 (which was HUGE on AVS forum back in the cut), and I think momitsu where companies that did this. I don't think they did it for very long, I don't know of a player that does it nowadays but then I'm not into the HT market much anymore.
Also, in the same way you proved me wrong you proved me right, and that's that MS isn't out to get you and is going above and beyond what hollywood requires when it comes to copy protection as other seem to think.
Last edited by danielsmi; 02-03-2007 at 02:40 AM.
02-03-2007, 02:56 AM
#126
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Originally Posted by SidS1045
It's actually much worse than that:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Cliff's Notes: If any digital content is not up to Micro$oft's standards, the content is munged or blocked altogether...including content that you have purchased. Same with hardware. HD monitors costing thousands of dollars, hooked up to Vista PCs, don't work.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Cliff's Notes: If any digital content is not up to Micro$oft's standards, the content is munged or blocked altogether...including content that you have purchased. Same with hardware. HD monitors costing thousands of dollars, hooked up to Vista PCs, don't work.
02-03-2007, 08:26 AM
#127
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I just don't get it, why don't you understand! What MS is doing in Vista is what every other manufacturer of HD-DVD and Blu-ray device in the entire world is doing. That is, your HI-def signal can only be transmitted over an HDCP compliant device. I challenge you to list one device in the entire world that legally transmits a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray signal to a monitor or TV and isn't HDCP capable. You can't do it, it doesn't exist. What is MS gonna do take away Hi-def capability cause they don't like the standards being FORCED upon them and every other hi-def capable manufacturer. Is there a Sony, Toshiba set top Hi-def player that doesn't support HDCP. No! But the difference between the set top player and Vista is that there's hardly any software involved on the set top box, especially software easily accessed by the consumer. So in Vista many component have to pass this test not just the video output. The disc drive, the software decoder, the OS, the Video card, the video output and the monitor. If one of these aren't up to snuff than hackers can get in, and then holly wood goes "OH NO MY NODEZ!!"
You're not really bringing up disabling the s/pdif connection are you!! I mean that is so old and I mean at least 8 years old. MS been doing it that long (since Windows ME) and hey guess what's it's not just MS it's every other manufacturer in the world, why because hollywood requires them to if they wan't to play the new formats. If you have a DVD-A or SACD player (I happen to have one of each) go stick in a disc and select the hi-quality version of either disc and try to play it over your optical or even coaxial connection. I guarantee you that you can't do it!! Now you can play the CD version of a hybrid SACD over the optical or even the 48kHz/16-bit version of the DVD-A over optical but no DSD or 96/24 or 192/24 audio is every leaving an optical jack on any device EVER!! Hollywood won't allow it, and if the manufacturer didn't do it than they wouldn't be able to play either formats at all, which to them isn't a solution. There's no bargaining with hollywood it's like the Frank Sinatra song "All or Nothing at All". I have a DVD-A player from 2000 or 2001 (Pioneer Elite DV-38a) and it won't play DVD-A over the optical, neither will the DV-59avi I have. In fact the DV-59avi one has a dedicated DHCP-capable i.Link port that's certified to carry DVD-A and SACD audio. MS is not going above and beyond the required copy protection scheme in order to screw you over as much as possible, that's rediculous! Yeah that's a great way to keep customers. Are you telling me that if you stuck in a DVD-A in a Mac or Linux that they'd output the audio over s/pdif!?!? Cause if so then you're wrong!! What do you want MS to do not be capable of displaying hi-def movies, yeah that's very smart of them. As soon as they do that everyone else in the world will support and laugh at MS for being behind and being an old fuddy duddy!! Can you imagine the stupic "I'm a mac" commercial for that one!! MS might dominate the computer world but they don't dominate the consumer electronic market nowhere even close, they don't have to power to say no to hollywood in this regard. How many people have media center pc in there homes, not that many. How many people prefer to watch a movie at the computer in an office chair than on the couch? I'd say hardly any, so if maybe all the on manufacturers of consumer players band together to fight hollywood then maybe something would happen but MS definitely can't do it by themselves since they are a very small percent of this market.
Oh and it doesn't cost much to implement HDCP capability it's only 4.5 cents per device, and for HDMI license it's $10,000 per year but HDMI isn't necessary since hi-def can be transmitted over DVI. But still $10,000 for a company that makes thousands of devices that's still pennies per devices nothing close to skyrocketing hardware costs.
I'm not an MS lover, i'm just a lover of common sense and the truth.
Bill Gates takes a Jab at DRM
You're not really bringing up disabling the s/pdif connection are you!! I mean that is so old and I mean at least 8 years old. MS been doing it that long (since Windows ME) and hey guess what's it's not just MS it's every other manufacturer in the world, why because hollywood requires them to if they wan't to play the new formats. If you have a DVD-A or SACD player (I happen to have one of each) go stick in a disc and select the hi-quality version of either disc and try to play it over your optical or even coaxial connection. I guarantee you that you can't do it!! Now you can play the CD version of a hybrid SACD over the optical or even the 48kHz/16-bit version of the DVD-A over optical but no DSD or 96/24 or 192/24 audio is every leaving an optical jack on any device EVER!! Hollywood won't allow it, and if the manufacturer didn't do it than they wouldn't be able to play either formats at all, which to them isn't a solution. There's no bargaining with hollywood it's like the Frank Sinatra song "All or Nothing at All". I have a DVD-A player from 2000 or 2001 (Pioneer Elite DV-38a) and it won't play DVD-A over the optical, neither will the DV-59avi I have. In fact the DV-59avi one has a dedicated DHCP-capable i.Link port that's certified to carry DVD-A and SACD audio. MS is not going above and beyond the required copy protection scheme in order to screw you over as much as possible, that's rediculous! Yeah that's a great way to keep customers. Are you telling me that if you stuck in a DVD-A in a Mac or Linux that they'd output the audio over s/pdif!?!? Cause if so then you're wrong!! What do you want MS to do not be capable of displaying hi-def movies, yeah that's very smart of them. As soon as they do that everyone else in the world will support and laugh at MS for being behind and being an old fuddy duddy!! Can you imagine the stupic "I'm a mac" commercial for that one!! MS might dominate the computer world but they don't dominate the consumer electronic market nowhere even close, they don't have to power to say no to hollywood in this regard. How many people have media center pc in there homes, not that many. How many people prefer to watch a movie at the computer in an office chair than on the couch? I'd say hardly any, so if maybe all the on manufacturers of consumer players band together to fight hollywood then maybe something would happen but MS definitely can't do it by themselves since they are a very small percent of this market.
Oh and it doesn't cost much to implement HDCP capability it's only 4.5 cents per device, and for HDMI license it's $10,000 per year but HDMI isn't necessary since hi-def can be transmitted over DVI. But still $10,000 for a company that makes thousands of devices that's still pennies per devices nothing close to skyrocketing hardware costs.
I'm not an MS lover, i'm just a lover of common sense and the truth.
Bill Gates takes a Jab at DRM
"entire world?"
might want to do some research and check that statement out again.Sorry but the MS or the Movie industry should not be involved in HW design. Period...
All of Vista's designs around it are just rediculous, and it will drive up HW costs. and it'll also make for Vista specific hardware. ** maybe re-read this statement.
You rant and rave about stuff... but lets get real...
You already CAN copy a DVD-A, you can already COPY a HD-DVD and a Blu-Ray disc. WTF was point of DHCP & encrypting across the bus when the Discs have already been exploited. And guess who helped design them? Not to mention HDCP was known to have major faults when it was proposed and forced info approval.
DRM is just a waste of $$. And it makes our products handicapped. Not to mention most of it has a political/business agenda behind it. ** nothing more
You're wrong about Linux and DVD-A. And you can play a DVD-A across SPDIF. It's just in a compressed format.
lol, sorry but you ARE a MS fanboy... might want to swallow that one now.
Wake up...
MS is not going above and beyond the required copy protection scheme in order to screw you over as much as possible, that's rediculous!
You are entirely missing the point that MS and the Movie guys are getting together and making brain dead products for us to use. To save their content, which has already been fully exploited. Again... a waste of $$ and additional costs we didn't need to spend.
Oh and it doesn't cost much to implement HDCP capability it's only 4.5 cents per device, and for HDMI license it's $10,000 per year but HDMI isn't necessary since hi-def can be transmitted over DVI. But still $10,000 for a company that makes thousands of devices that's still pennies per devices nothing close to skyrocketing hardware costs.
anyway...
Now we have sub par products that will perform inferiorly to save their already exploited media.
And then we pass this non-sense off to my computer now...
I'm glad I run a flavor of *nix on all of my boxes at home.Want do discuss new version of MS office that locks open formats too?
Does your coffee cup say ".NET" on it?
02-03-2007, 08:38 AM
#128
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by danielsmi
OK yeah that article is very stupid. EVERYONE HAS TO DO THIS!! How hard is that for people to understand not just Microsoft!! EVERYONE from apple, sony, panasonic, toshiba, pioneer, denon, harmon/kardon, onkyo, mclaren, mcintosh, tag, lexicon, krell, bose, b&o, meridian, samsung, etc, etc, etc!!! Hollywood is not applying the rules just to Microsoft and no one else. The thing is that this HDCP is new to the PC market even though it's been in the HT market for years and you can't really buy a TV today that doesn't have a digital connection without HDCP support. The PC market is just way behind in this regard and is now finally catching up because this stuff is demanded in order to view hi-def movies. I mean my dvd player that's 3-4 years old has HDCP, this shit isn't new people get with the program if you want hi-def movies your gonna have to accept it. I'm sorry but it's true, I don't like it as much as the next person but it ain't going away anytime soon!!
Only for US and UK products...
you are totally ignorant to the fact that ends up dictating to more than just the movie industry.
It's sad you don't seem to mind the DRM stuff; that's really what we are discussing.
"Get with the program"?
You keep following the herd around; let me know how it works out for ya...
p.s. DHCP has only been out for a bit over 2 years. Wake up! It's not that "old" if you knew anything about how quickly things get adopted across the board. It takes a long time. So anyone who hasn't purchased a HDTV in the past 2 years or less doesn't have HDCP support. That's a LOT of people. With your snub attitude I'm sure your response is "well go buy a new one stupid!"
Ohh and other countries do sell devices that don't have DRM stuff integrated in it. I'm not going to waste my time and look all of them up; why don't you spend some time educating yourself on it
Maybe one day you'll actually see some of the other motives behind some of these changes.
02-03-2007, 09:13 AM
#129
Photography Nerd
Holy crap siggy, it's saturday, I'd hate to see you on a monday! 
DRM = Bad
However, there are a lot of improvements to Vista and Office 2007 too, especially for an office environment. I don't think we're going to back out of our 5000 seat site license just because the DRM grip has been tightened.
DRM = Bad
However, there are a lot of improvements to Vista and Office 2007 too, especially for an office environment. I don't think we're going to back out of our 5000 seat site license just because the DRM grip has been tightened.
02-03-2007, 09:17 AM
#130
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by Dan Martin
Holy crap siggy, it's saturday, I'd hate to see you on a monday!
DRM = Bad
However, there are a lot of improvements to Vista and Office 2007 too, especially for an office environment. I don't think we're going to back out of our 5000 seat site license just because the DRM grip has been tightened.
DRM = Bad
However, there are a lot of improvements to Vista and Office 2007 too, especially for an office environment. I don't think we're going to back out of our 5000 seat site license just because the DRM grip has been tightened.
Can you tell I woke up with a Migrane?
Microsoft's closed office standard is just ridiculous; if you haven't read about it yet. Another vice MS wants to have on the industry.
MS benefits hugely from the DRM; they can force HW to be made Vista specific. And don't think it won't be. As now HW companies are being pushed to basically abandon the open source world.
I also have no intention of following up with the DRM fanboy above
I can tell already it will be a never-ending conversation.
02-03-2007, 10:20 AM
#131
Photography Nerd
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Can you tell I woke up with a Migrane?
Microsoft's closed office standard is just ridiculous; if you haven't read about it yet. Another vice MS wants to have on the industry.
MS benefits hugely from the DRM; they can force HW to be made Vista specific. And don't think it won't be. As now HW companies are being pushed to basically abandon the open source world.
I also have no intention of following up with the DRM fanboy above I can tell already it will be a never-ending conversation.
Microsoft's closed office standard is just ridiculous; if you haven't read about it yet. Another vice MS wants to have on the industry.
MS benefits hugely from the DRM; they can force HW to be made Vista specific. And don't think it won't be. As now HW companies are being pushed to basically abandon the open source world.
I also have no intention of following up with the DRM fanboy above
I can tell already it will be a never-ending conversation.I think our development guys are looking forward to the enhanced server side of office in 2007. We're a Microsoft shop in every sense of the word, even Microsoft used our software as a case study in their own literature to demonstrate what a .Net environment can do.
On the hardware front, I don't know if it's necessarily a bad thing that Microsoft is taking more control over the hardware their software is being used on. Less choice for the consumer is seldom a good thing, but Apple has been doing it on a much larger scale for years.
If it can create more stable programs and hardware that works the way it's intended to, it might not be such a bad deal. DRM still sucks though, and developing hardware to enforce the DRM model is a waste of resources. However, if there were tighter guidelines on hardware manufacturers that ensured compatibility and stability, I'd support that movement.
02-03-2007, 01:45 PM
#132
Senior Moderator
I like to think that DRM is a phase... like prohibition. I only wonder how long it will take before its gone.
02-03-2007, 02:16 PM
#133
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
"entire world?" might want to do some research and check that statement out again.
might want to do some research and check that statement out again.
Sorry but the MS or the Movie industry should not be involved in HW design. Period...
"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware."
- Alan Kay
All of Vista's designs around it are just rediculous, and it will drive up HW costs. and it'll also make for Vista specific hardware. ** maybe re-read this statement.
You rant and rave about stuff... but lets get real...
You already CAN copy a DVD-A, you can already COPY a HD-DVD and a Blu-Ray disc. WTF was point of DHCP & encrypting across the bus when the Discs have already been exploited. And guess who helped design them? Not to mention HDCP was known to have major faults when it was proposed and forced info approval.
You already CAN copy a DVD-A, you can already COPY a HD-DVD and a Blu-Ray disc. WTF was point of DHCP & encrypting across the bus when the Discs have already been exploited. And guess who helped design them? Not to mention HDCP was known to have major faults when it was proposed and forced info approval.
DRM is just a waste of $$. And it makes our products handicapped. Not to mention most of it has a political/business agenda behind it. ** nothing more
You're wrong about Linux and DVD-A. And you can play a DVD-A across SPDIF. It's just in a compressed format.
lol, sorry but you ARE a MS fanboy... might want to swallow that one now.
Wake up...
You are entirely missing the point that MS and the Movie guys are getting together and making brain dead products for us to use. To save their content, which has already been fully exploited. Again... a waste of $$ and additional costs we didn't need to spend.
Wake up...
You are entirely missing the point that MS and the Movie guys are getting together and making brain dead products for us to use. To save their content, which has already been fully exploited. Again... a waste of $$ and additional costs we didn't need to spend.
Oh I see you'rr a EE hardware designer now. I'm sure you have 10+ years of experience designing PCB layouts and circuits to make that statement. I'm sure you design ASIC chips in your sleep and program DSPs on the shitter. Have you ever really been part of a ASIC chip design? Do you really know what it costs to re-tool for changes like that? including R&D testing, then Q&A testing. There's way more factors to the final cost that what you quoted.
anyway...
Now we have sub par products that will perform inferiorly to save their already exploited media.
And then we pass this non-sense off to my computer now... I'm glad I run a flavor of *nix on all of my boxes at home.
Want do discuss new version of MS office that locks open formats too?
Does your coffee cup say ".NET" on it?
Now we have sub par products that will perform inferiorly to save their already exploited media.
And then we pass this non-sense off to my computer now...
I'm glad I run a flavor of *nix on all of my boxes at home.Want do discuss new version of MS office that locks open formats too?
Does your coffee cup say ".NET" on it?
here's MS response:
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/wi...d-answers.aspx
02-03-2007, 02:19 PM
#134
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Originally Posted by srika
I like to think that DRM is a phase... like prohibition. I only wonder how long it will take before its gone.
02-03-2007, 02:19 PM
#135
dumber than a box of hair
Originally Posted by soopa
<a href="http://www.apple.com/">
</a>
</a>Quoted from the beginning of the article:
Executive Summary
"Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called “premium content”, typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry."
02-03-2007, 02:37 PM
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I'd like to see a cost analysis of what it cost a pirate to burn an illegal copy of a hi-def movie compared to going out and buying a PS3 and a movie.
Legal way
$500 for PS3 $20-25 for blu ray movie. total cost $525 plus tax
illegal way
at least $900 for blu ray burner plus $18 for single layer blank blu-ray and at least $30 for dual layer blank media. plus the time and effort of getting the encryption key, etc! Don't see how it's worth it. Gonna have to make about 100 movies before you break even, I think i'll pass. FOR NOW!!
I don't think softeare pirates steal hardware like they steal software. am i right?
Legal way
$500 for PS3 $20-25 for blu ray movie. total cost $525 plus tax
illegal way
at least $900 for blu ray burner plus $18 for single layer blank blu-ray and at least $30 for dual layer blank media. plus the time and effort of getting the encryption key, etc! Don't see how it's worth it. Gonna have to make about 100 movies before you break even, I think i'll pass. FOR NOW!!
I don't think softeare pirates steal hardware like they steal software. am i right?
Last edited by danielsmi; 02-03-2007 at 02:41 PM.
02-03-2007, 02:43 PM
#137
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Originally Posted by danielsmi
I'd like to see a cost analysis of what it cost a pirate to burn an illegal copy of a hi-def movie compared to going out and buying a PS3 and a movie.
Legal way
$500 for PS3 $20-25 for blu ray movie. total cost $525 plus tax
illegal way
at least $900 for blu ray burner plus $18 for single layer blank blu-ray and at least $30 for dual layer blank media. plus the time and effort of getting the encryption key, etc! Don't see how it's worth it. Gonna have to make about 100 movies before you break even, I think i'll pass. FOR NOW!!
I don't think softeare pirates steal hardware like they steal software. am i right?
Legal way
$500 for PS3 $20-25 for blu ray movie. total cost $525 plus tax
illegal way
at least $900 for blu ray burner plus $18 for single layer blank blu-ray and at least $30 for dual layer blank media. plus the time and effort of getting the encryption key, etc! Don't see how it's worth it. Gonna have to make about 100 movies before you break even, I think i'll pass. FOR NOW!!
I don't think softeare pirates steal hardware like they steal software. am i right?
02-03-2007, 02:47 PM
#138
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DRM is like a car alarm. It's meant to stop the average joe but isn't gonna stop the professional in the end. So DRM is preventing the napster world we had at the turn of the millenium where it was easy for everyone to steal. it's still happening but not on a major scale. My comment only applies to newer media like hd dvd and blu ray since it basically too late to apply DRM to cd (even though they still try and do it). There won't be hd dvd and blu ray theft like there was with cds and everyone was doing it. So if they can stop most of the people then that's fine and they'll just sue the rest!!
02-03-2007, 02:52 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by danielsmi
DRM is like a car alarm. It's meant to stop the average joe but isn't gonna stop the professional in the end. So DRM is preventing the napster world we had at the turn of the millenium where it was easy for everyone to steal. it's still happening but not on a major scale. My comment only applies to newer media like hd dvd and blu ray since it basically too late to apply DRM to cd (even though they still try and do it). There won't be hd dvd and blu ray theft like there was with cds and everyone was doing it. So if they can stop most of the people then that's fine and they'll just sue the rest!!
The media companies are better off giving people an INCENTIVE to own the physical legal copies.
02-03-2007, 06:10 PM
#140
dumber than a box of hair
Originally Posted by danielsmi
OK yeah that article is very stupid. EVERYONE HAS TO DO THIS!! How hard is that for people to understand not just Microsoft!! EVERYONE from apple, sony, panasonic, toshiba, pioneer, denon, harmon/kardon, onkyo, mclaren, mcintosh, tag, lexicon, krell, bose, b&o, meridian, samsung, etc, etc, etc!!! Hollywood is not applying the rules just to Microsoft and no one else. The thing is that this HDCP is new to the PC market even though it's been in the HT market for years and you can't really buy a TV today that doesn't have a digital connection without HDCP support. The PC market is just way behind in this regard and is now finally catching up because this stuff is demanded in order to view hi-def movies. I mean my dvd player that's 3-4 years old has HDCP, this shit isn't new people get with the program if you want hi-def movies your gonna have to accept it. I'm sorry but it's true, I don't like it as much as the next person but it ain't going away anytime soon!!
DRM is a bludgeon used by Hollywood to enforce THEIR concept of who has rights to record or view their material. It has nothing to do with the current law and court decisions. When I purchase content 100% legally, it is up to ME (NOT someone else) what I do with it, as long as I don't give it to someone else. I am allowed, under the law, to make backup copies for my personal use. I am allowed to view it when I want, as many times as I want. Under the law and the Supreme Court decision in the Sony Betamax case, I am allowed to record a TV program on a VCR or DVR, to be played back whenever I want to (part of a legal doctrine commonly known as "fair use"). DRM throws all of that in the shitcan, and leaves the consumer with no rights whatsoever over material he has lawfully purchased. Further, every time that same material comes out in a new format, DRM causes the consumers to have to pay...AGAIN...to purchase the same material in the new format. Want to copy that old video tape to an HD-DVD? No can do. DRM says no. Blu-Ray? Can't do that either. Notice that it doesn't matter what's on the tape. It could be a video of your daughter's high school graduation, shot on your own 8mm videocam. But you're recording it onto an HD video medium, so Hollywood gets to decide if you can do it or not. Since when is that "demanded" by anyone, except those who will profit by it?
Instead of being a butt-boy for Micro$haft and using the excuse "I don't like it as much as the next person but it ain't going away anytime soon!!" try getting angry. The rights being taken away by this stuff are yours as well as mine and everyone else's. If we don't express our outrage and put up a fight now, those rights will vanish into thin air forever, and Hollywood will get to decide what digital content you see and hear on THEIR terms, not yours.
Howard Beale in "Network" said it best: "But first, you've got to get MAD!!!!"
Last edited by SidS1045; 02-03-2007 at 06:12 PM.
02-03-2007, 06:35 PM
#141
I just loaded Vista Premium this afternoon and it is great so far. My system is running fine and has not slowed down, at least that I can tell.
My favs so far: I like the gadget bar, AERO is a "cool" feature, but alt + tab works just fine (I like the preview you get with alt + tab now), I like the preview when you scroll over the toolbar and the picture/movie software is great. (I am a noob, but it works for me).
IE7 Is much better, IMO. It has tabs, like Firefox. No problems loading it, the only thing it did not like was the Logitech webcam, which is fine since we never use it. All of our files transferred just fine and nothing lost.
The control panel is a little different, so getting used to new titles and the massive search function kinda sucks. I have used it twice and it did not come back with what I was looking for.
My favs so far: I like the gadget bar, AERO is a "cool" feature, but alt + tab works just fine (I like the preview you get with alt + tab now), I like the preview when you scroll over the toolbar and the picture/movie software is great. (I am a noob, but it works for me).
IE7 Is much better, IMO. It has tabs, like Firefox. No problems loading it, the only thing it did not like was the Logitech webcam, which is fine since we never use it. All of our files transferred just fine and nothing lost.
The control panel is a little different, so getting used to new titles and the massive search function kinda sucks. I have used it twice and it did not come back with what I was looking for.
02-03-2007, 11:40 PM
#143
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Originally Posted by SidS1045
"Everyone has to do this" doesn't make it right or legal. "The PC market is...now finally catching up" doesn't make it right or legal either.
DRM is a bludgeon used by Hollywood to enforce THEIR concept of who has rights to record or view their material. It has nothing to do with the current law and court decisions. When I purchase content 100% legally, it is up to ME (NOT someone else) what I do with it, as long as I don't give it to someone else. I am allowed, under the law, to make backup copies for my personal use. I am allowed to view it when I want, as many times as I want. Under the law and the Supreme Court decision in the Sony Betamax case, I am allowed to record a TV program on a VCR or DVR, to be played back whenever I want to (part of a legal doctrine commonly known as "fair use"). DRM throws all of that in the shitcan, and leaves the consumer with no rights whatsoever over material he has lawfully purchased. Further, every time that same material comes out in a new format, DRM causes the consumers to have to pay...AGAIN...to purchase the same material in the new format. Want to copy that old video tape to an HD-DVD? No can do. DRM says no. Blu-Ray? Can't do that either. Notice that it doesn't matter what's on the tape. It could be a video of your daughter's high school graduation, shot on your own 8mm videocam. But you're recording it onto an HD video medium, so Hollywood gets to decide if you can do it or not. Since when is that "demanded" by anyone, except those who will profit by it?
Instead of being a butt-boy for Micro$haft and using the excuse "I don't like it as much as the next person but it ain't going away anytime soon!!" try getting angry. The rights being taken away by this stuff are yours as well as mine and everyone else's. If we don't express our outrage and put up a fight now, those rights will vanish into thin air forever, and Hollywood will get to decide what digital content you see and hear on THEIR terms, not yours.
Howard Beale in "Network" said it best: "But first, you've got to get MAD!!!!"
DRM is a bludgeon used by Hollywood to enforce THEIR concept of who has rights to record or view their material. It has nothing to do with the current law and court decisions. When I purchase content 100% legally, it is up to ME (NOT someone else) what I do with it, as long as I don't give it to someone else. I am allowed, under the law, to make backup copies for my personal use. I am allowed to view it when I want, as many times as I want. Under the law and the Supreme Court decision in the Sony Betamax case, I am allowed to record a TV program on a VCR or DVR, to be played back whenever I want to (part of a legal doctrine commonly known as "fair use"). DRM throws all of that in the shitcan, and leaves the consumer with no rights whatsoever over material he has lawfully purchased. Further, every time that same material comes out in a new format, DRM causes the consumers to have to pay...AGAIN...to purchase the same material in the new format. Want to copy that old video tape to an HD-DVD? No can do. DRM says no. Blu-Ray? Can't do that either. Notice that it doesn't matter what's on the tape. It could be a video of your daughter's high school graduation, shot on your own 8mm videocam. But you're recording it onto an HD video medium, so Hollywood gets to decide if you can do it or not. Since when is that "demanded" by anyone, except those who will profit by it?
Instead of being a butt-boy for Micro$haft and using the excuse "I don't like it as much as the next person but it ain't going away anytime soon!!" try getting angry. The rights being taken away by this stuff are yours as well as mine and everyone else's. If we don't express our outrage and put up a fight now, those rights will vanish into thin air forever, and Hollywood will get to decide what digital content you see and hear on THEIR terms, not yours.
Howard Beale in "Network" said it best: "But first, you've got to get MAD!!!!"
If what hollywood was doing was illegal than I think it's safe to assume that consumer advocate groups would be going after them. AFAIK this hasn't happened but I could be out of the loop. I haven't heard anything about the EFF or ACLU or whomever sueing the RIAA or MPAA for DRM. I know the EFF went after Sony BMG for the rootkit DRM thing and won but that's becuase the DRM compromised people's PC and was installed without consent. Other than that I haven't heard about anything else. Someone want to update me?
I also haven't heard that you couldn't record to HD-dvd or blu-ray. and if so why does it say on the blank hd dvd media that it
"Supports high-definition video recording"
If so that sounds a little misleading to me.
I'm just curious are you guys boycotting the whole hi-def movie scene all together because of the DRM required?
02-03-2007, 11:48 PM
#144
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Originally Posted by danielsmi
I'm just curious are you guys boycotting the whole hi-def movie scene all together because of the DRM required?
Plus my wallet screams rape at the prices.
02-04-2007, 12:13 AM
#145
Senior Moderator
As we know, as tech progresses, prices come down. I would like to think that HD content will cost the same as regular DVD's do now, hopefully not too long from now. And it won't have any stupid DRM on it. Unfortunately, the latter portion of what I just said sounds very far-fetched. 
02-04-2007, 09:49 AM
#146
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I'm still waiting for someone to show me a device that legally transfers hi-def movies digitally without HDCP.
Why? Well in at least regards to MS, isn't that what makes Apple as great as they are
"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware."
- Alan Kay
I'm sorry your wrong the only new hardware you'll need is a blu-ray drive which will work with XP as they've been available for a while. An HDCP capable monitor. Which I already have and yes it works fine with XP or OS X or Linux it's NOT VISTA EXCLUSIVE!! And how much more did I pay out the ass for this capability? Nothing more!! I paid $679 which if you look on the net is at or below average price for a 24 inch monitor and all of those other models don't have HDCP capability. You'll also need an HDCP capable video card. Now you may remember the big fiasco from about 6-8 months ago where everyone got mad at ATi and nVidia for claiming to support HDCP when they didn't cause they didn't have a chip on there cards that stored the encryption keys which is a requirement for HDCP. The GPUs of these cards were HDCP capable but the rest of the card wasn't. Now at the time nVidia actually had one card that was fully HDCP capable inlcuding the chip that made it HDCP capable but this was an OEM-only part used in I believe a Sony Media Center PC. The Sony Media PC used either nVidia 6200 or 6600 graphic cards which were fully HDCP capable and they've been available for probably 2 years now. So this isn't anything new that Vista is requiring as some manufacturers have been doing this for years. Now actually at the time of this fiasco everyone thought that we already had HDCP support for our PC but we were mislead and so now it's finally happening. So how much are you expected to pay out the ass to have a graphics card that has one extra chip that stores the HDCP key (this was the only thing missing since the GPU has had support for HDCP for years) an insanely expensive $96.00. Which is for the middle of the road 7300 GS and this even has HDMI output. Oh and it works with XP and hey it's not Vista only as it's been available for sometime now.
Yes your right you can do all that, that doesn't mean they should get rid off the copy protection since it's been defeated. That's like saying there should be no border patrol sonce mexicans have gotten across the border, we should just pack it up and go home and Mexico and the US should merge into one nation.
you're right but hollywood owns the content and they want to make as much $$ as possible from this stuff. So they will force you, or you don't get anything. Unfortunately I was raised in a similar fashion by my parents so I kind of understand their point of view. If I didn't do something my parents wanted they'd take anything and everything away from me to get me to do what they wanted.
ok so you're proving me right here it might play over optical but it isn't the high quality version. It's a downsampled (not compressed) version, so they take the 192/24 signal and turn it into probably 48/16. Which is what Hollywood is paranoid about, and that's the consumer (pirates) getting a hold of a pristine digital copy of their content. Hence why there's not unprotected digital connection that transfers hi-resolution audio or video
see my comment above.
No I'm not but as the product I pointed out above are at or below average prices for their price bracket I don't think this point holds water. Yes I know there's more to it than the liscensing fee. But what made nVidia not look so bad in the HDCP fiasco was that they had done everything on their side so that the companies that make cards based on their design could implement HDCP in the cards. nVidia layed to the what the needed to do to, theygave them the insctruction but the companies chose to skip that part of the instructions in builing the card. So now all the have to do is finally follow the instructions implement them and see that they work and your good to go. There shouldn't be a bunch of R&D done since nVidia had already done that years ago just no one decided to follow it but said that they had.
if you want you can read MS response to this article I beleive it's the same article that was link to earlier in this thread. To be fair you should read both sides. Also I heard from Leo Laporte after interviewing the guy who wrote the article trashing Vista DRM, Leo said that the guy had just read a bunch of documentation and this was his take on it, he hadn't experienced it, I'm not even sure the guy has Vista to test his accusations.
here's MS response:
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/wi...d-answers.aspx
Why? Well in at least regards to MS, isn't that what makes Apple as great as they are
"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware."
- Alan Kay
I'm sorry your wrong the only new hardware you'll need is a blu-ray drive which will work with XP as they've been available for a while. An HDCP capable monitor. Which I already have and yes it works fine with XP or OS X or Linux it's NOT VISTA EXCLUSIVE!! And how much more did I pay out the ass for this capability? Nothing more!! I paid $679 which if you look on the net is at or below average price for a 24 inch monitor and all of those other models don't have HDCP capability. You'll also need an HDCP capable video card. Now you may remember the big fiasco from about 6-8 months ago where everyone got mad at ATi and nVidia for claiming to support HDCP when they didn't cause they didn't have a chip on there cards that stored the encryption keys which is a requirement for HDCP. The GPUs of these cards were HDCP capable but the rest of the card wasn't. Now at the time nVidia actually had one card that was fully HDCP capable inlcuding the chip that made it HDCP capable but this was an OEM-only part used in I believe a Sony Media Center PC. The Sony Media PC used either nVidia 6200 or 6600 graphic cards which were fully HDCP capable and they've been available for probably 2 years now. So this isn't anything new that Vista is requiring as some manufacturers have been doing this for years. Now actually at the time of this fiasco everyone thought that we already had HDCP support for our PC but we were mislead and so now it's finally happening. So how much are you expected to pay out the ass to have a graphics card that has one extra chip that stores the HDCP key (this was the only thing missing since the GPU has had support for HDCP for years) an insanely expensive $96.00. Which is for the middle of the road 7300 GS and this even has HDMI output. Oh and it works with XP and hey it's not Vista only as it's been available for sometime now.
Yes your right you can do all that, that doesn't mean they should get rid off the copy protection since it's been defeated. That's like saying there should be no border patrol sonce mexicans have gotten across the border, we should just pack it up and go home and Mexico and the US should merge into one nation.
you're right but hollywood owns the content and they want to make as much $$ as possible from this stuff. So they will force you, or you don't get anything. Unfortunately I was raised in a similar fashion by my parents so I kind of understand their point of view. If I didn't do something my parents wanted they'd take anything and everything away from me to get me to do what they wanted.
ok so you're proving me right here it might play over optical but it isn't the high quality version. It's a downsampled (not compressed) version, so they take the 192/24 signal and turn it into probably 48/16. Which is what Hollywood is paranoid about, and that's the consumer (pirates) getting a hold of a pristine digital copy of their content. Hence why there's not unprotected digital connection that transfers hi-resolution audio or video
see my comment above.
No I'm not but as the product I pointed out above are at or below average prices for their price bracket I don't think this point holds water. Yes I know there's more to it than the liscensing fee. But what made nVidia not look so bad in the HDCP fiasco was that they had done everything on their side so that the companies that make cards based on their design could implement HDCP in the cards. nVidia layed to the what the needed to do to, theygave them the insctruction but the companies chose to skip that part of the instructions in builing the card. So now all the have to do is finally follow the instructions implement them and see that they work and your good to go. There shouldn't be a bunch of R&D done since nVidia had already done that years ago just no one decided to follow it but said that they had.
if you want you can read MS response to this article I beleive it's the same article that was link to earlier in this thread. To be fair you should read both sides. Also I heard from Leo Laporte after interviewing the guy who wrote the article trashing Vista DRM, Leo said that the guy had just read a bunch of documentation and this was his take on it, he hadn't experienced it, I'm not even sure the guy has Vista to test his accusations.
here's MS response:
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/wi...d-answers.aspx
I don't have time to reply to this today, but there are a number of devices to remove HDCP. I promise to further reply this evening or early tomorrow morning.
There's a bunch of inline products out that kill HDCP... this isn't the specific device I was looking for; I don't have time to find the one I wanted this morning. Tnis is an example of a grey market device. (i.e. not US/UK driven; there's a bunch of them now)
http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/15/s...lling-on-hdcp/
And of course you *know* HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have already been compromised right? So xfering either of those format in HD over a computer without HDCP is trivial.
DRM is just to force us to buy specifics; and it's all people who are in bed with one another. Cable card is another HUGE example of this... another major COST overhead for the consumer. I'll get into this tomorrow...
p.s. I do work for a company who builds electronics from the ground up
Thanks for the thoughtful reply; i'll shoot some back soon (I'm on a tight superbowl sunday schedule
)
02-04-2007, 10:29 AM
#147
dumber than a box of hair
Originally Posted by danielsmi
If what hollywood was doing was illegal than I think it's safe to assume that consumer advocate groups would be going after them.
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I know the EFF went after Sony BMG for the rootkit DRM thing and won but that's becuase the DRM compromised people's PC and was installed without consent.
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I also haven't heard that you couldn't record to HD-dvd or blu-ray. and if so why does it say on the blank hd dvd media that it
"Supports high-definition video recording"
If so that sounds a little misleading to me.
"Supports high-definition video recording"
If so that sounds a little misleading to me.
Originally Posted by danielsmi
I'm just curious are you guys boycotting the whole hi-def movie scene all together because of the DRM required?
02-04-2007, 10:32 AM
#148
dumber than a box of hair
Originally Posted by SiGGy
I don't have time to reply to this today, but there are a number of devices to remove HDCP. I promise to further reply this evening or early tomorrow morning.
There's a bunch of inline products out that kill HDCP... this isn't the specific device I was looking for; I don't have time to find the one I wanted this morning. Tnis is an example of a grey market device. (i.e. not US/UK driven; there's a bunch of them now)
http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/15/s...lling-on-hdcp/
And of course you *know* HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have already been compromised right? So xfering either of those format in HD over a computer without HDCP is trivial.
DRM is just to force us to buy specifics; and it's all people who are in bed with one another. Cable card is another HUGE example of this... another major COST overhead for the consumer. I'll get into this tomorrow...
p.s. I do work for a company who builds electronics from the ground up
Thanks for the thoughtful reply; i'll shoot some back soon (I'm on a tight superbowl sunday schedule )
There's a bunch of inline products out that kill HDCP... this isn't the specific device I was looking for; I don't have time to find the one I wanted this morning. Tnis is an example of a grey market device. (i.e. not US/UK driven; there's a bunch of them now)
http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/15/s...lling-on-hdcp/
And of course you *know* HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have already been compromised right? So xfering either of those format in HD over a computer without HDCP is trivial.
DRM is just to force us to buy specifics; and it's all people who are in bed with one another. Cable card is another HUGE example of this... another major COST overhead for the consumer. I'll get into this tomorrow...
p.s. I do work for a company who builds electronics from the ground up
Thanks for the thoughtful reply; i'll shoot some back soon (I'm on a tight superbowl sunday schedule
)Just one more thing none of us agreed to.
02-04-2007, 11:08 AM
#149
Photography Nerd
Originally Posted by SidS1045
You betcha...and as an IT manager, Vista won't be getting anywhere near my workplace under these conditions.
02-04-2007, 02:06 PM
#151
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Originally Posted by SidS1045
I hope you realize that what you've posted is a violation of US law...specifically, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act which, among other things, criminalizes public discussions of electronic copyright protection. I'd almost bet you didn't know that...and I'd certainly bet that only a tiny percentage of the population realizes it.
Just one more thing none of us agreed to.
Just one more thing none of us agreed to.
02-04-2007, 02:31 PM
#152
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Originally Posted by Python2121
Vista wouldn't play any of my porn files, there is a beta version of vlc for vista that works well though!
Are you sure you're playing a file the WMP supports?
02-05-2007, 10:59 AM
#154
X spots the mark
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OK I've been playing around with Vista Home Premium this weekend and I've tried playing every video file I had on my comp on it, everything works. I have tried to install every app I had running on XP in Vista, everything worked without a hitch except for one program, PartitionMagic 8.05.
I also wanna mention that I was running Vista on very modest hardware, HP Pavilion laptop: AMD Turion X2 TL-50(1.6Ghz), 1GB DDR2 RAM, up to 288mb of shared video memory on the intergrated graphics chip and 120GB SATA drive. Given these specs, Vista is running very smoothly, I was able to play most of the games I had running on XP, including the ones exclusively made for DX9.
As for ease of use, I wanna say XP is easier and more intuitive but that could be just because I've been using it for some many years. Whatever the case is, it definately takes more clicks in Vista to accomplish something, like changing setting in the control panel, as compared to XP.
Anyway, for the most part it's not nearly as bad as some of you are making it seem (most of whom haven't even used it yet). It has the potential of being a very stable and reliable OS and I'm sure it will be.
I also wanna mention that I was running Vista on very modest hardware, HP Pavilion laptop: AMD Turion X2 TL-50(1.6Ghz), 1GB DDR2 RAM, up to 288mb of shared video memory on the intergrated graphics chip and 120GB SATA drive. Given these specs, Vista is running very smoothly, I was able to play most of the games I had running on XP, including the ones exclusively made for DX9.
As for ease of use, I wanna say XP is easier and more intuitive but that could be just because I've been using it for some many years. Whatever the case is, it definately takes more clicks in Vista to accomplish something, like changing setting in the control panel, as compared to XP.
Anyway, for the most part it's not nearly as bad as some of you are making it seem (most of whom haven't even used it yet). It has the potential of being a very stable and reliable OS and I'm sure it will be.
02-05-2007, 11:18 AM
#155
Photography Nerd
I'm getting my hands dirty with Office 2007 now and there are a lot of really excellent new features that I'm excited to roll out to the company.
So far I've only played around with Excel 2007 on a more than casual basis, I'll tackle the other apps later this week. Here are the highlights as they will apply to my company:
1) Extended workspace (16,384 columns, 1,048,576 rows)
- We have a very busy warehouse and it's not uncommon for us to peg out the max rows limit in 2000/2003 when we export transaction reports from our database to an Excel document.
2) Themes. It will be nice to have color and style themes that we can use to create a unified look for any file leaving the company.
3) Enhanced conditional formatting. Not only is it easier to apply formatting, there are 5 new types of formatting available. You can even have an Icon appear depending on the value of a cell. Color shades let you set a top color and a bottom color and excel will apply varying shades of those colors depending on the value of the cell. The data bars also look cool too.
4) 64 levels of data sorting. Not that we'd use all 64 levels, but I've often found that 3 levels was too restrictive.
5) Enhanced filtering. Being able to filter by color or font is an amazing feature. You can apply a conditional format to a range of cells, then filter on that format. Suite!
6) Enhanced Charts and Chart Sharing. The original chart styles are getting pretty dated by now, this fresh look will be a welcome change. The chart sharing feature looks pretty cool too. You can keep your Excel document on the SharePoint server and any charts you put into a word or powerpoint document will be updated when you update the original worksheet.
7) Enhanced Pivot Tables. They revised the interface quite a bit to make it easier for PivotTable newbies. PivotTables are hugely powerful tools and I love teaching them to people, but it can be an abstract concept to pass along. This reorganization (especially the field names pane) makes it much easier to work with.
I'll post my findings with Word, PowerPoint, and Outlook as I get to them...
So far I've only played around with Excel 2007 on a more than casual basis, I'll tackle the other apps later this week. Here are the highlights as they will apply to my company:
1) Extended workspace (16,384 columns, 1,048,576 rows)
- We have a very busy warehouse and it's not uncommon for us to peg out the max rows limit in 2000/2003 when we export transaction reports from our database to an Excel document.
2) Themes. It will be nice to have color and style themes that we can use to create a unified look for any file leaving the company.
3) Enhanced conditional formatting. Not only is it easier to apply formatting, there are 5 new types of formatting available. You can even have an Icon appear depending on the value of a cell. Color shades let you set a top color and a bottom color and excel will apply varying shades of those colors depending on the value of the cell. The data bars also look cool too.
4) 64 levels of data sorting. Not that we'd use all 64 levels, but I've often found that 3 levels was too restrictive.
5) Enhanced filtering. Being able to filter by color or font is an amazing feature. You can apply a conditional format to a range of cells, then filter on that format. Suite!
6) Enhanced Charts and Chart Sharing. The original chart styles are getting pretty dated by now, this fresh look will be a welcome change. The chart sharing feature looks pretty cool too. You can keep your Excel document on the SharePoint server and any charts you put into a word or powerpoint document will be updated when you update the original worksheet.
7) Enhanced Pivot Tables. They revised the interface quite a bit to make it easier for PivotTable newbies. PivotTables are hugely powerful tools and I love teaching them to people, but it can be an abstract concept to pass along. This reorganization (especially the field names pane) makes it much easier to work with.
I'll post my findings with Word, PowerPoint, and Outlook as I get to them...
02-05-2007, 11:38 AM
#156
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Originally Posted by whynot
OK I've been playing around with Vista Home Premium this weekend and I've tried playing every video file I had on my comp on it, everything works. I have tried to install every app I had running on XP in Vista, everything worked without a hitch except for one program, PartitionMagic 8.05.
I also wanna mention that I was running Vista on very modest hardware, HP Pavilion laptop: AMD Turion X2 TL-50(1.6Ghz), 1GB DDR2 RAM, up to 288mb of shared video memory on the intergrated graphics chip and 120GB SATA drive. Given these specs, Vista is running very smoothly, I was able to play most of the games I had running on XP, including the ones exclusively made for DX9.
As for ease of use, I wanna say XP is easier and more intuitive but that could be just because I've been using it for some many years. Whatever the case is, it definately takes more clicks in Vista to accomplish something, like changing setting in the control panel, as compared to XP.
Anyway, for the most part it's not nearly as bad as some of you are making it seem (most of whom haven't even used it yet). It has the potential of being a very stable and reliable OS and I'm sure it will be.
I also wanna mention that I was running Vista on very modest hardware, HP Pavilion laptop: AMD Turion X2 TL-50(1.6Ghz), 1GB DDR2 RAM, up to 288mb of shared video memory on the intergrated graphics chip and 120GB SATA drive. Given these specs, Vista is running very smoothly, I was able to play most of the games I had running on XP, including the ones exclusively made for DX9.
As for ease of use, I wanna say XP is easier and more intuitive but that could be just because I've been using it for some many years. Whatever the case is, it definately takes more clicks in Vista to accomplish something, like changing setting in the control panel, as compared to XP.
Anyway, for the most part it's not nearly as bad as some of you are making it seem (most of whom haven't even used it yet). It has the potential of being a very stable and reliable OS and I'm sure it will be.
02-05-2007, 11:45 AM
#157
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Originally Posted by danielsmi
That's probably a good thing that PM doesn't work with Vista. In my CompTIA A+ class I was taking in school the teacher had us use an old version PM to do some partioning and formating and whatnot. Well the version was so old that it didn't work well with newer NTFS in XP and when we did something to the XP partition it got screwed up and we had to reinstall XP. I beleive Vista uses a new version of NTFS so I wouldn't go using PM on it, I'd wait until they come out with a new version. Just for clarification the PM version we were using (either version 5 or 6) supported NTFS but didn't work well with the version in XP cause the PM was older than XP.
02-05-2007, 12:44 PM
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yeah PM 8 is fine with XP but PM 5 and 6 are not. So what I'm saying is that even though PM 8 works with XP it may not work with Vista since Vista uses a newer form of NTFS just like PM 5 worked with older versions of NTFS fine but not XP cause it was newer.
02-05-2007, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Python2121
uhh, im not touching wmp with a 20 foot pole...