SamDoe1

Or gas...or coal...or wind...or solar.

1killercls

not yet

SamDoe1

New EV credit looks like it's going to happen. $7500 on cars $55k or less and trucks/SUVs $80k or less provided you make less than $150k single and $300k joint. Even have a $4k credit on used EV's less than $25k. No restrictions on number of sales like before. I was hoping that they'd up the credit to $12k but whatever. I'll take what I can get.

Will also be cool to see what comes with new EV chargers that will get installed around the country as part of the infrastructure bill that was passed earlier. They have enough money to install 500k fast chargers around the country with $5B in money to states to build them along highways and $2.5B for community chargers.

fiatlux

At a minimum, it's going to disqualify most EVs due to the North American assembly criteria. In the immediate term it may also disqualify all EVs because of the battery mineral and battery components criteria; it's unclear whethere there are actually any EVs that have batteries using at least 40% minerals sourced from the US or free-trade partners. Given that the vast majority of the lithium and nickel supply in the world comes from China, I would be surprised if any EV meets that requirement.

SamDoe1

If that's the case then the bill will almost certainly be revised to include the right language. At this point there aren't that many EVs assembled in the US anyway, especially not ones costing less than $80k. Only one I can think of at this point are the cheaper Teslas and the VW ID4. The cheaper Rivians are a few years out and the Lucid doesn't have a prayer. The MachE is made in Mexico so I guess that qualifies as North America?

fiatlux

I doublt it is going to be revised. If already went through the Senate's vote-a-rama and was passed without any changes. It is highly unlikely that the House will make any changes to it because they don't want to risk having to put it up for a vote in the senate again, given that this is but a very small part of the overall bill.

I'm pretty confident this is by design in order to get Machin's vote. He previously wanted to kill EV credits, and this language would put the proverbial axe into it, at least for the near future, while making the other Dems feel that EV's will get a boost. Frankly, not many Senators actually care enough about this part of the bill.

SamDoe1

I guess we'll see what happens then! Reading a bit more and it says that the battery content thing needs to get phased in by 2024 so people buying before then (like me) should be good to go. The MSRP, final assembly, and income limits come into play right away though.

fiatlux

Battery mineral content of 40% takes effect 2023. Battery component of 50% takes affect 2024.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/climate-b...122148353.html

See page 387: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documen...ct-of-2022.pdf

SamDoe1

Well shit. Hopefully my next truck has that then.

Even though I can still get it even without the rebate, $7500 isn't an insignificant amount of money to leave on the table.

We'll see what the house does for this bill though I'm not holding my breath on any change since they want to ramrod it through before they go on vacation.

Curious3GTL

If I could get a Kia Sportage Plug-in at MSRP I would totally get one.

Tech

ZERO chance simply because I do not want the inconvenience of owning one.

I have driven a Porsche Taycan Turbo S at a Porsche Track Experience event, but if I was buying an EV, it would be for the economics of it, not the performance and besides, I would hate a sports car sounding like a sewing machine.

EV are good as taxis and delivery vehicles in cities.

SamDoe1

What inconvenience?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I don't live in a city, and my EV isn't a taxi or delivery vehicle. I've even used it on road trips. It's pretty damn good in my use case.

SamDoe1

^ Same. I've never come close to running out of juice or having to go out of my way to charge. Plug it in at home, and it's ready to party the next morning. Most days I don't even plug it in. I do about 800-900 miles a month.

1Louder

I'm skeptical it may get revised, but hopeful. But as-written it's nearly worthless. And, if Ford and GM are not happy with the language, that's not exactly the group you want to be disappointed with bill like this. It's supposed to help them, and if they say it doesn't, that's not the headline politicians are looking for.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...le-2022-08-05/

1Louder

Glad I found this thread. My next car will be an EV or a plug in hybrid, and I'm in the market now. The problem is there is zero inventory outside California on the West Coast. I've been looking at Toyota, Lexus, Kia, Hyundai, Volvo, Ford, Audi - no one has squat. I took a test drive in a Kia EV6 (they keep one for test drives only) and even if I wanted one, the wait is 6 months. I see lots of BMW i4's and iX's inbound but they are all order fulfillments. So I'm guessing it's going to be 2023 some time. The EV6 taught me an important lesson about driving one before you order one. I was actually all set to order one but, of all things, the seat, seating position and steering wheel position were not comfortable for me. Not something I'd want to spend 2 hrs a day in anyway. But it's the first EV I've driven, and the driving experience was very unique, on the "cool I like this" side.

But I think in the end I may go plug in hybrid. I'm going to have some serious demands for a vehicle to go long distances to places with little to no charging over the next 5 years. I'm kind-of thinking dip my toe in the water that way, and hopefully hit the wave of solid-state battery offerings in the next round for full EV. A 30-35 mile all electric range would take care of a LOT of my driving, short of a couple of commutes each week (which is 55 miles round trip).

Volvo XC60 extended range tops the list, and really, really interested in the Lexus RX plug in next year (I currently have an RX 450h). Can't rule out the Hyundai Tuscon either if I can find one to sit in at least.

Anyway, mostly frustrated that nearly every dealership is saying the same thing - don't have any, no idea when we will, they are all going to CA because of the state laws.

00TL-P3.2

Still thinking PHEV may work for my next, in 4xe form, if that's the case.
Undecided, and luckily in no rush for it.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The joys of buying a car post-COVID.

1Louder

And most are marking them up too. All the rebates are basically going to the dealerships. (more ). I have a day off next week and I'm going to visit Volvo, Audi, Lexus and BMW. I'll be interested to see what I can actually see in person and what they say about availability.

00TL-P3.2

Yeah, I would rather keep slumming in the Malibu than pay dealer markups.

Tech

Just to name a very few...

• Range. Remember, what is acceptable to one is not acceptable to another.
• Can't recharge as often as I can find a gas station and even if I could, I am not willing to wait till the EV driver ahead of me is finished charging. It happens.
• I have kept cars 14+ years. I worked in a battery lab and I know battery capacity decreases over time and I am not about to dish out big $$$ for a replacement battery.
• And besides, working in a lab and having some analytical skills, I know they are not "clean" as so many think. So the "clean" aspect is not a selling feature.
• Cost and economics.

Oh, in my next life when I do not know what a Turbo S sounds like.

Tech

I do that in a day (or more)...on my motorcycle. See what I mean about range and what is acceptable to one is not acceptable to another. Now you know why I have an 8 gallon tank on my motorcycle.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

8-900 miles on a bike every day... that's over 200k miles in a year. Sounds like a literal pain in the ass

Tech

Obviously not and only when on a tour. Hey, that BMW GS is no toy and it is comfy. Like I said, I need the range in my car or motorcycle and then be able to fully fill up in ~5 minutes.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

This was a concern of mine as well. But in my use case, roadtrips weren't as frequent as they were 5-10 years ago. And even when I do road trip, the car has handled it fine, I was stationary for ~20 minutes, and I never had to wait for an open charging stall. I'm not in California though, and I'm aware it's a huge issue there.

This is something that I hope is addressed. Tesla's Supercharging network has exploded over the last 5 years and they are located in many gas stations along major arteries. But third party (Chargepoint, Electrify America) aren't as wide spread and they are poorly maintained.

Per AAA, the average cost of maintenance for an ICE vehicle is $120 month. That's $1,440/yr, or just over $20k for 14 years. The average replacement cost for Model 3 battery is $16k (labor and parts, at $175/hr shop rate). I'm curious to know what cost was for you to keep a vehicle on the road over the course of 14 years.

I'm not denying that the battery replacement will eventually be required due to degradation, but the lack of required maintenance on an EV may make it a wash when compared to an ICE vehicle.

They're still cleaner than ICE vehicles, especially when you account for the supply chain.

Complains about cost. Drives a Porsche. Makes sense.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Oh, then why would you have an 8-900 mile requirement for an EV when you only do that on your motorcycle just for special events?

SamDoe1

Dealer markups are going to be a thing for a while longer. Only alternative is to buy from one of the single price places like Tesla/Rivian/Lucid/soon Ford and wait for your car to show up. Will take months but you won't overpay for it.

Make sure you add the Jeep GC 4xe to your list, it has gotten fantastic reviews.

PHEV is likely what my wife's next car will be. We have a very specific use case where she cannot have a full EV so that kind of sucks. Her parents live literally in the middle of nowhere in a town of 100 people where the closest Wally World is 45 minutes away. Safe to say there's no charging at all within 100 miles of their house as it's straight up biggest, lifted truck you can find country. We're trying to find alternatives to charging issues for going to her parent's place but it's not looking good just yet. Maybe in a couple years we'll be able to go full EV for her car too.

1.) How far do you drive in a given day on a routine basis? Is it more than 200 miles? If no, then an EV would easily be sufficient for daily driving
2.) You generally don't have to stop to recharge at all unless you're on a road trip. Go home, plug in, ready in the morning. Pretty easy. On a trip, the car maps out what you need to do, where you need to stop, and for how long. It's not as bad as you seem to think it is. I have never once had to wait for an open stall. Your location may vary but unless you live in CA, this is not likely to be an issue for you. Also, you don't typically go to these stations unless you're travelling anyway.
3.) Sure, it decreases over time but you also don't pay much if anything for maintaining your car over those same 14 years. On top of the vastly lower cost to fuel the car over those same 14 years, you're likely still coming out ahead. Lastly, just because you HAVE kept cars for 14 years doesn't mean you do. Your sig states that, what I'm assuming is your DD, is only 5-6 years old.
4.) They aren't totally clean but are, overall, cleaner than a gas car. There's really no disputing this fact. I personally didn't buy an EV for the environmental side of things but there's no denying that they are cleaner.
5.) You have two 911's, an Acura, and a BMW motorcycle. I'm guessing that cost or economics is not as big of a concern for you as it is for many others.

So...keep the motorcycle for those situations. I can't imagine that you do that kind of mileage all that often and keeping the bike for fun is absolutely something I would do.

1Louder

I have a few of these constraints as well. I reasoned that an EV with Level 2 home charging would meet about 90% of my needs though. The problem is that 10%. And using my wife's car for the 10% isn't an option, because that 10% involves stuff she does not want her car involved with (i.e. rugged dirty hauling camping type of stuff). And if I'm honest I don't want her car involved in that either. But I was close to maybe accepting that, but really a PHEV is the answer.

1Louder

I will think about that, but I have a decades-long grievance with Chrysler . I owned a 1992 Chrysler mini van back when we were a struggling single income family (and that single income was a 1st Lieutenant's salary) with 2 kids under 3. That stupid van had 3 options on it and two of them broke early and often. Wear items failed repeatedly and early. A local dealership straight-up charged me hundreds of dollars for work I discovered later they didn't do (after I moved four states away). It went through 3 transmissions in under 70k miles. All this when I could least afford dealing with that stuff. So I'm left with a permanent scar from that ordeal lol. I know it was a long time ago, and if I were rational I'd get over it. But not sure yet if I will. I may go see it though just the same. Maybe just to spit on it (ha ha ha). Maybe there is an avenue to earn back my trust. Maybe. We'll see.

I have a similar use case to deal with. We are primary support to my father in law, who lives 600 miles away in Montana, and we're vulnerable right now to needing to go out there very often and on short notice. Since that need will be driven by medical emergency, I can't be in a position to rely on charging to get there never mind charging while I'm there for an extended period of time. And it will take both our cars when it happens. And half the year Montana weather is cruel, which makes EV usage even harder.

SamDoe1

Well Chrysler doesn't exist anymore, it's all Fiat now.

A 600 mile slog in an EV is totally doable, even on short notice, provided there are fast chargers on your route. That's easy enough to find out though. Where are you at and where does your FIL live?

1Louder

Maybe so, but my grudge follows the bloodlines back a generation or two. And Fiat's most recent foray into the US market didn't do much for the quality reputation...

Seattle -> Helena (near there anyway). But even if I could get there, there is nothing at the house. Although I suspect somewhere in the city is a level 3. I'm not ruling out an F-150 Lightning if they don't price me out of it.....

oonowindoo

Just FYI, you can order ID4 online with no markup and but you will need to wait... at least that is the case here in CA. But i dont know how long the wait is tho... that is 1 way to get a decent EV without paying markup, if you are not in a rush.

a low 50k 290hp SUV (low $40k after incentives) is pretty good. VW still has the $7500 tax credit + 2500 from CA regardless if the new law gets passed or not... U just have to understand that your choices for charging outside your house are not gonna be nearly as good as Tesla.

1Louder

I'd need to see and drive one, and it's missing just a couple options I'm not sure I want to be without if I'm going to drop $55k+. But if I see one I'll crawl around it - definitely would have to drive first. The ID.Buzz looks like a lot of fun. I totally do not need anything like that, but I'm old enough to remember riding around in some of the original VW busses and it might be a hoot. Probably practical as all get out.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

That ID.Buzz is cool as hell.

SamDoe1

You got lots of generations to grudge against if it goes back to the early 90's! Chrysler -> Daimler -> Chrysler again -> Fiat -> Stellantis.

The new GC uses much the same drivetrain as the old one and it's pretty reliable. The Pentastar with the ZF8 is a rock solid drivetrain. The ZF9 is a POS, avoid at all costs. The 2.0T in the PHEV version has been out for a while too without much complaint.

As far as charging goes, there's TONS out that way. Here's the Tesla map, there's an 8 stall 250kW supercharger in Helena:

Tech

Maybe. How do you know? The presenter in this video makes some valid points. But in my case, I could not care less; its just that some owners of these EV's that make statements without knowing all the facts.

Tech

Exactly my point as I do not want any limitations. I am not about to buy a second vehicle or rent one for my long trips. And the reason why I with my very limited pension can afford two 911s, an Acrua RDX and my five motorcycles is because I am frugal. I do all my own maintenance and repairs and I do not constantly pi$$ money away on trading my vehicles in on the latest and greatest every few years.

Plus I would hate my car sounding like a sewing machine. Good for others, not for me. Although not for me either, a Hybrid or Plug-In as long as it has an engine.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I unfortunately do not have time to watch the video, but it's on my watchlist. However, regarding the pollution/carbon footprint of an EV vehicle, it's myth #1 on the EPA website:

And greenhouse gasses is covered in myth #5.

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths


Why would you need to buy a second(?) vehicle when you already have 8 others? You do realize no one is forcing you to buy an EV, right?

1Louder

I'll accept his conclusions at face value for the moment, although I don't think he was correct in the necessity to compare 400 mile range EVs with 400 mile range gas cars. But setting that aside, I think he's missing one point.

So lets say for arguments sake that current EVs are in fact not any better than gas cars when it comes to overall emissions. Maybe a tad better over the life of the car, or maybe it's a push. But his conclusion to go just hybrid basically neuters the future for EVs.

No one is going to invest (as aggressively as we need to) in renewable energy without demand. No one is going to invest in infrastructure without demand. No one is going to advance the state of battery technology without demand. So we don't get to his future state unless enough demand for electricity is created. And we create that demand by buying EVs. So "zero emission" marketing aside, we need EVs to become more popular if nothing else to create the demand necessary for those other things to be profitable ventures for someone to invest in. But if there is no demand, no profitable venture, there will be no progress.

I view current gen EVs as step 1 of many steps needed to get to his goal state. And maybe step 1 is a push when it comes to overall emissions. But we need step 1 to get to step 2, and 3, and 4, and whatever step turns the corner that opens up the world of renewable energy sources and high-capacity EVs.

He also doesn't address the fact that coal and gas will run out one day. So these steps are needed as well if nothing more than to try and prevent a world-wide collapse of society.

So I can buy his premise but not his strategy. Hybrids alone don't create the incentives needed for something better. I think we're on the right track, but far from the destination.

oonowindoo

If we couldn't even get everyone mask up or vaccinated in a real pandemic, how do we expect everyone to care more about something that is even less "real" and "far away"
Whether EV is greener or not is almost irrelevant in my eyes.

Buy it because you like it or if you dont wanna pay for gas. All other reasons will never be convincible, one way or the other.


This pandemic has taught me a lot of things.

Just keeping it real here

#human