When will Audi catch up to BMW? Or has it?
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
When will Audi catch up to BMW? Or has it?
Okay....We know BMW 3 series, and it's M's are still king...but Audi has made tremendous strides in closing the gap.
if you were to say 4-5 years ago (let alone decades) that Audi would top BMW as the world's #1 luxury/performance car....people would laugh at you.
But now it seems Audi has finally caught up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoa7qAq9N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHj0zbhjLZI
imo...Audi has up one on BMW with their technology, interior design/material, and outer design imo of course. Performance/handling/ergonomics is really whats separating the two and bmws clearly have that advantage.
if you were to say 4-5 years ago (let alone decades) that Audi would top BMW as the world's #1 luxury/performance car....people would laugh at you.
But now it seems Audi has finally caught up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoa7qAq9N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHj0zbhjLZI
imo...Audi has up one on BMW with their technology, interior design/material, and outer design imo of course. Performance/handling/ergonomics is really whats separating the two and bmws clearly have that advantage.
#2
I shoot people
I like Audi's designs better (currently), in just about every class
#5
I'm glad BMW has some competition. When they were on the up in the late 90's - early 2000's they were awesome. The last year or so has sucked
-their styling has gotten too bland(except the Z4)
-the Z4 handles like crap
-the 2012 6 series looks like ass (IMO)
-X6 & 5 series GT (wtf?)
-one of their main advantages was the N54 and its tunability. Now they are only putting that in 's' models and charging $7 grand more for it.
One area they have stepped up is in the interiors..although they still trail the other two
Audis are getting a little too derivative but are for the most part very hot
watch for MB they are back on the rise as well..they make the most solid feeling car out of the 3 IMO.
Fanboys will cry "But the BMW ___ is more fun on a racetrack!!! It gets you laid!!"
Other factors have to be considered incl. interior & exterior design, build quality, desirability... those are the areas where Audi is building a lead on. And no chick is gonna diss you for showing up in a Benz lol.
-their styling has gotten too bland(except the Z4)
-the Z4 handles like crap
-the 2012 6 series looks like ass (IMO)
-X6 & 5 series GT (wtf?)
-one of their main advantages was the N54 and its tunability. Now they are only putting that in 's' models and charging $7 grand more for it.
One area they have stepped up is in the interiors..although they still trail the other two
Audis are getting a little too derivative but are for the most part very hot
watch for MB they are back on the rise as well..they make the most solid feeling car out of the 3 IMO.
Fanboys will cry "But the BMW ___ is more fun on a racetrack!!! It gets you laid!!"
Other factors have to be considered incl. interior & exterior design, build quality, desirability... those are the areas where Audi is building a lead on. And no chick is gonna diss you for showing up in a Benz lol.
#6
Fahrvergnügen'd
BMW makes very good cars. The 5-series GT and the X6 looked like they were worth every penny because of how well they were made.
Little things (at least to me) like the quality of the plastic of the taillights shows me where cost cutting was made. And if that's what I can see, what else has been cheaped on that I can't see?
That said, I love what Audi does and would always buy an Audi over a BMW. But give credit where it's due. Maybe BMWs have a stereotype in this country but they are great cars.
Little things (at least to me) like the quality of the plastic of the taillights shows me where cost cutting was made. And if that's what I can see, what else has been cheaped on that I can't see?
That said, I love what Audi does and would always buy an Audi over a BMW. But give credit where it's due. Maybe BMWs have a stereotype in this country but they are great cars.
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Although I am slightly biased towards Audi, I still think they have some work to do. I've always liked the Interiors on Audi's a lot more than bimmer's interiors; however, BMW has the driving experience nailed down. Not to say that Audi's cars are not great performers because their turbo motors have greatly improved over the years. It's just that if they had their issues resolved with the V8 motors in their S cars I think they'd be top notch. Although, aren't they switching to a supercharged V6 now?
Anyway, Audi has some work to do, but I am very happy with the direction that they have moved in. I would gladly take an Audi over most BMWs, but I certainly wouldn't mind owning a 1 series, M3, 335, 540 at any time.
I have to reiterate something that has said time and time again that I agree with. Take a BMW's driving experience (motor, suspension et al.) and combine that with the interior of an Audi and you would have an awesome peice of machinery.
And to add, I haven't had enough experience with Audi dealerships to yet know if they truly are luxury class because the only time I needed a loaner, I got a Kia Forte through enterprise because that was the relationship the Audi Dealer I go to has set up for their loaners as far as I know. That I think kills their rep quite a bit.
Anyway, Audi has some work to do, but I am very happy with the direction that they have moved in. I would gladly take an Audi over most BMWs, but I certainly wouldn't mind owning a 1 series, M3, 335, 540 at any time.
I have to reiterate something that has said time and time again that I agree with. Take a BMW's driving experience (motor, suspension et al.) and combine that with the interior of an Audi and you would have an awesome peice of machinery.
And to add, I haven't had enough experience with Audi dealerships to yet know if they truly are luxury class because the only time I needed a loaner, I got a Kia Forte through enterprise because that was the relationship the Audi Dealer I go to has set up for their loaners as far as I know. That I think kills their rep quite a bit.
Last edited by Sly Raskal; 09-22-2010 at 10:00 AM.
#10
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We have chosen an Audi over a BMW twice (A4 over 3-series, then an A6 over a 5-series). So as far as I'm concerned, it's a level playing field.
Then again we look at MUCH more when buying a car then 0-60 times and lateral G's. It's the entire package... including the dealership... and it was an easy decision to go with Audi each time.
Then again we look at MUCH more when buying a car then 0-60 times and lateral G's. It's the entire package... including the dealership... and it was an easy decision to go with Audi each time.
#11
And to add, I haven't had enough experience with Audi dealerships to yet know if they truly are luxury class because the only time I needed a loaner, I got a Kia Forte through enterprise because that was the relationship the Audi Dealer I go to has set up for their loaners as far as I know. That I think kills their rep quite a bit.
The BMW dealer (Shelly BMW) I go to is better in this regard. However, if they run out of the BMW loaners, they'll give you an econo box.
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Can I assume you're talking about Penske Audi? If so, I totally agree with you on this. Only once where I got an A4 as a loaner, but that was at the beginning when they had the rental service under their roof. Now they're sending you across the freeway to the Enterprise under MB's roof, and they'll only give you an econo box as a loaner unless you pay a little extra to upgrade to a C-class or an A4.
The BMW dealer (Shelly BMW) I go to is better in this regard. However, if they run out of the BMW loaners, they'll give you an econo box.
The BMW dealer (Shelly BMW) I go to is better in this regard. However, if they run out of the BMW loaners, they'll give you an econo box.
#13
I go to Penske Audi too since they're so close to me. I live about 1.5 miles from them. So far, my experiences with them have been good....except for the loaner. Also, they seem mod friendly.
#15
Safety Car
IMO, Audi has better build quality, but BMW has much better value.
You would have to look at the top of line products to really say if one brand surpassed the other:
Audi S < BMW M < Audi RS
IMO, Audi offers superior cars (RSs), but the price premium is outrageous to the M counterpart. The biggest question is: Does BMW has the ability of producing cars at an RS level, or does it prefer to stay within reasonable price points?
You would have to look at the top of line products to really say if one brand surpassed the other:
Audi S < BMW M < Audi RS
IMO, Audi offers superior cars (RSs), but the price premium is outrageous to the M counterpart. The biggest question is: Does BMW has the ability of producing cars at an RS level, or does it prefer to stay within reasonable price points?
Last edited by ThermonMermon; 09-22-2010 at 11:39 AM.
#18
Senior Moderator
Then again BMW is starting to annoy me with their steering assist in these new models.
Cant say im too pleased with this new RS5. It barely beats out the M3 and thats been out since 2007! Audi is always playing catch-up.
No denying that its stunning though. But Audi needs to do something soon, while their designs are all great they seem to be sticking to it for far too long. They playing it safe it seems.
#19
My first Avatar....
I've always liked the Interiors on Audi's a lot more than bimmer's interiors; however, BMW has the driving experience nailed down.
I have to reiterate something that has said time and time again that I agree with. Take a BMW's driving experience (motor, suspension et al.) and combine that with the interior of an Audi and you would have an awesome peice of machinery.
I have to reiterate something that has said time and time again that I agree with. Take a BMW's driving experience (motor, suspension et al.) and combine that with the interior of an Audi and you would have an awesome peice of machinery.
I just wish both BMW and Audi wouldn't "package" you to death with their options. The options are outrageously priced as they are, but why do we have to buy things in the packages that we really don't want or need?
Example: Must I really buy the ski bag with the winter package?
#21
Senior Moderator
This says it all.
I just wish both BMW and Audi wouldn't "package" you to death with their options. The options are outrageously priced as they are, but why do we have to buy things in the packages that we really don't want or need?
Example: Must I really buy the ski bag with the winter package?
I just wish both BMW and Audi wouldn't "package" you to death with their options. The options are outrageously priced as they are, but why do we have to buy things in the packages that we really don't want or need?
Example: Must I really buy the ski bag with the winter package?
They have standalone options. You dont need winter package if you dont want the ski bag. You can easily just get the heated seats just by themselves. Its what i did. I also hate headlight washers but yea.
Keep dreaming.
#22
My first Avatar....
This when ordering the car direct from BMW, correct?
#23
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2008 A4 had cold weather package option, 08.5 did not. Which means I lost the ability to add rear heated seats. they never gave me the option to add just the rear heated seats. Not that I need them often in so cal, but still woulda been cool to have.
#24
Senior Moderator
^ oops, i was talking more about BMW options than Audi. Kinda miss the days where the A4 loaded was around $34k.
ah yes sorry. I like ordering as i can custom build it to exactly what I want. If you spending that much then why not.
ah yes sorry. I like ordering as i can custom build it to exactly what I want. If you spending that much then why not.
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This is what Audi is missing. I special ordered mine the way I wanted, but not customized in the sense of ordering standalone options which Audi is lacking.
#26
This is not my personal stance, but to the general population Audi still has a short ways to go to have the same brand cachet that Lexus, BMW and MB have. They have certainly come a long way though... I don't think Audi had a good reputation at all in the early 90's.
As someone who hasn't given two shits about brands at all for a while now, I certainly would cross shop Audi with BMW. I still think I'd take a BMW over a comparable Audi though, for some of the reasons mentioned above
As someone who hasn't given two shits about brands at all for a while now, I certainly would cross shop Audi with BMW. I still think I'd take a BMW over a comparable Audi though, for some of the reasons mentioned above
#27
Suzuka Master
I remember I read something where the BMW M division VP or something said that he wants to head in the direction of the older M's. Smaller, lighter and cheaper. Dunno if that will ever happen though. Let me see if I can find that article.
edit: found it
Forget raw horsepower numbers, don’t worry about 0 to 60 times. To Kay Segler, it’s all about what “your butt-o-meter…tells you.”
For performance aficionados, few cars command more respect than one with the vaunted BMW “M” badge bolted onto the back. This brand-within-a-brand is, perhaps more than anything else, the reason the Bavarian maker has been able to defend its long-standing claim to being “the ultimate driving machine.”
Yet, at a time when even the most mainstream manufacturers are emphasizing performance, and mid-market entries like the 2011 Ford Mustang are nudging past the once-unimaginable 400 horsepower barrier, M chief Segler says it’s time to rethink what his division stands for. And the new definition doesn’t necessarily require BMW to deliver either the fastest, or the most powerful cars possible.
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“The measurement of 0 to 100 (kmh) isn’t as much a thrill anymore,” Segler proclaims during a long dinner in downturn Munich, not far from BMW’s headquarters. What matters more than raw numbers is how a car feels, he explains. “You can measure a lot of things by the numbers, but your butt-o-meter is what tells you” whether you’re satisfied, Segler contends, as he sips a glass of sparkling water, reminding us of Germany’s tough drunk driving laws.
After an "epic battle" BMW decided to add its X-line to the list of M-ready models.
For anyone who thinks of German executives as rigid and unyielding, a conversation with Segler delivers a variety of surprises. Since taking on the helm of what is arguably the halo operation within an already well-respected automaker, early last year, he has shown a surprising willingness to keep an open mind and embrace change.
“The dogmas are gone,” Segler insists, offering up some example to back up that claim.
There was a time when BMW offered only a handful of M models, usually variants of the 3- or 5-Series. It wasn’t all that long ago when company officials would look aghast when asked if there might be the opportunity to work the M magic on one of BMW’s sport-activity vehicles, like the X5. As the recent launch of the X6 M underscores, that taboo is gone.
This was “a big epic battle” that dragged on “for years,” says Segler, conceding the fact that it took a competitor to break down that barrier. The launch of the Porsche Cayenne, notably the Turbo edition, “triggered the appetite” for more performance out of BMW’s X-line.
Another big change for M was the decision to go with a turbocharged drivetrain, something that was also on its “never” list. (Ironically, the decision to go with boosting was made even as arch-rival AMG, the Mercedes-Benz performance arm, abandoned supercharging in favor of a unique, naturally-aspirated V8.)
Going forward, what M decides it needs will be “answered by technology,” no matter what that technology is, contends Segler. But after a pause, he thinks twice about that argument.
There’s a growing push into electrification in the auto industry. No surprise when you’re talking about econocars, like the Toyota Prius hybrid or the eUP battery minicar under development at Volkswagen. But a variety of upscale makers also see an opportunity to use battery power for performance applications. There’s Fisker Automotive, with its planned plug-in hybrid sports car, and the pure battery-electric version of the gull-winged SLS being developed by Mercedes’ AMG.
Segler says he’s willing to “see what it (electric propulsion) can do for us,” but if the skepticism doesn’t immediately show through, he quickly underscores his reservations, asking, “Do you need a high-performance (battery) car to drive 50 kilometers? I doubt it.”
That doesn’t mean Segler’s team can ignore environmental trends, and he promises that the next-generation M5 will produce at least 20% less CO2, “without compromising performance.”
While Segler insists “performance is still a trend,” he is unusually blunt for an automotive executive – German or not – acknowledging that the segment his brand competes in has been shrinking” for several years, down from more than 200,000 vehicle a year to barely 130,000 in 2009.
The question, of course, is why? Is it something driven by the current – and hopefully temporary – global economic downturn, or something more permanent? Either way, Segler is rethinking both what that M represents and who it should appeal to.
“We want to make M young again,” he says, adding a word that isn’t typically associated with the brand, “and affordable. My sons would like to have an M, and when they’re 40, not 60.” His goal, Segler asserts, “is to go towards affordability and freshness.”
Exactly what that means isn’t yet clear. If anything, it’s likely to result in a broadening of the M line, rather than a wholesale move down-market. The next-generation M3 isn’t likely to be a Mustang GT with a pair of kidney grilles and the BMW “spinner” logo. But expect to see not only classic M products but also more M options, like body trim and engine accessories, available for other BMW models.
Segler notes that he’s also quite interested in motor sports, and “We want to have our drivers (show up) on race tracks” for more amateur events.
To entice more owners the maker has set up a performance driving school at its U.S. factory, in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
That factory, one might recall, also broke the rules for parent company BMW, which long insisted only Germans could build its products. So, perhaps the rule is to keep breaking the rules. That’s something Kay Segler quite comfortable living with.
“The dogmas are gone,” says BMW M chief Kay Segler.
For performance aficionados, few cars command more respect than one with the vaunted BMW “M” badge bolted onto the back. This brand-within-a-brand is, perhaps more than anything else, the reason the Bavarian maker has been able to defend its long-standing claim to being “the ultimate driving machine.”
Yet, at a time when even the most mainstream manufacturers are emphasizing performance, and mid-market entries like the 2011 Ford Mustang are nudging past the once-unimaginable 400 horsepower barrier, M chief Segler says it’s time to rethink what his division stands for. And the new definition doesn’t necessarily require BMW to deliver either the fastest, or the most powerful cars possible.
Online Performer!
“The measurement of 0 to 100 (kmh) isn’t as much a thrill anymore,” Segler proclaims during a long dinner in downturn Munich, not far from BMW’s headquarters. What matters more than raw numbers is how a car feels, he explains. “You can measure a lot of things by the numbers, but your butt-o-meter is what tells you” whether you’re satisfied, Segler contends, as he sips a glass of sparkling water, reminding us of Germany’s tough drunk driving laws.
After an "epic battle" BMW decided to add its X-line to the list of M-ready models.
For anyone who thinks of German executives as rigid and unyielding, a conversation with Segler delivers a variety of surprises. Since taking on the helm of what is arguably the halo operation within an already well-respected automaker, early last year, he has shown a surprising willingness to keep an open mind and embrace change.
“The dogmas are gone,” Segler insists, offering up some example to back up that claim.
There was a time when BMW offered only a handful of M models, usually variants of the 3- or 5-Series. It wasn’t all that long ago when company officials would look aghast when asked if there might be the opportunity to work the M magic on one of BMW’s sport-activity vehicles, like the X5. As the recent launch of the X6 M underscores, that taboo is gone.
This was “a big epic battle” that dragged on “for years,” says Segler, conceding the fact that it took a competitor to break down that barrier. The launch of the Porsche Cayenne, notably the Turbo edition, “triggered the appetite” for more performance out of BMW’s X-line.
Another big change for M was the decision to go with a turbocharged drivetrain, something that was also on its “never” list. (Ironically, the decision to go with boosting was made even as arch-rival AMG, the Mercedes-Benz performance arm, abandoned supercharging in favor of a unique, naturally-aspirated V8.)
Going forward, what M decides it needs will be “answered by technology,” no matter what that technology is, contends Segler. But after a pause, he thinks twice about that argument.
There’s a growing push into electrification in the auto industry. No surprise when you’re talking about econocars, like the Toyota Prius hybrid or the eUP battery minicar under development at Volkswagen. But a variety of upscale makers also see an opportunity to use battery power for performance applications. There’s Fisker Automotive, with its planned plug-in hybrid sports car, and the pure battery-electric version of the gull-winged SLS being developed by Mercedes’ AMG.
Segler says he’s willing to “see what it (electric propulsion) can do for us,” but if the skepticism doesn’t immediately show through, he quickly underscores his reservations, asking, “Do you need a high-performance (battery) car to drive 50 kilometers? I doubt it.”
That doesn’t mean Segler’s team can ignore environmental trends, and he promises that the next-generation M5 will produce at least 20% less CO2, “without compromising performance.”
While Segler insists “performance is still a trend,” he is unusually blunt for an automotive executive – German or not – acknowledging that the segment his brand competes in has been shrinking” for several years, down from more than 200,000 vehicle a year to barely 130,000 in 2009.
The question, of course, is why? Is it something driven by the current – and hopefully temporary – global economic downturn, or something more permanent? Either way, Segler is rethinking both what that M represents and who it should appeal to.
“We want to make M young again,” he says, adding a word that isn’t typically associated with the brand, “and affordable. My sons would like to have an M, and when they’re 40, not 60.” His goal, Segler asserts, “is to go towards affordability and freshness.”
Exactly what that means isn’t yet clear. If anything, it’s likely to result in a broadening of the M line, rather than a wholesale move down-market. The next-generation M3 isn’t likely to be a Mustang GT with a pair of kidney grilles and the BMW “spinner” logo. But expect to see not only classic M products but also more M options, like body trim and engine accessories, available for other BMW models.
Segler notes that he’s also quite interested in motor sports, and “We want to have our drivers (show up) on race tracks” for more amateur events.
To entice more owners the maker has set up a performance driving school at its U.S. factory, in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
That factory, one might recall, also broke the rules for parent company BMW, which long insisted only Germans could build its products. So, perhaps the rule is to keep breaking the rules. That’s something Kay Segler quite comfortable living with.
“The dogmas are gone,” says BMW M chief Kay Segler.
Last edited by speedemon90; 09-22-2010 at 02:23 PM.
#29
I shoot people
FWIW... I wanted an A3 soooooooooooo bad for Vancouver... but since cars are hella expensive here... I decided it'll have to wait.
even a used 06 with about 70k miles are going for $18 at the cheapest... and don't forget the 12% tax :thumbsdow
even a used 06 with about 70k miles are going for $18 at the cheapest... and don't forget the 12% tax :thumbsdow
#30
Senior Moderator
#31
Senior Moderator
audi has some great exterior designs and much better craftsmanship then they have ever had and it's definitely giving BMW a run for their money! I'd buy myself an Audi in a heartbeat if there was a dealer within an hour of me and as well if I could find the perfectly optioned one. The only thing I dislike about audi is their interiors somewhat, the A8 interior is amazing, but the other models lack quite a bit and retain that older style of having the navi screen like the old 2nd gen TL's and CL's had them positioned. I don't like that. I like a symmetrical cockpit style like the TL, RL, MDX! The 760 I have comes close, except it really isn't cockpit, just dash atop the center console.
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B7 A4 Interior ...
B8 A4 Interior ...
Last edited by Sly Raskal; 09-22-2010 at 05:40 PM.
#33
Senior Moderator
These billboards say it all to me
Audi still has some catching up to do in my mind, although they've closed the gap pretty tightly.
Audi still has some catching up to do in my mind, although they've closed the gap pretty tightly.
#34
My first Avatar....
Stand alone options seem like a reasonable idea. A good way to get what you want, not all the junk that they want to sell. Does this cripple your ability to negotiate price on the car though?
#36
Burning Brakes
#37
These billboards say it all to me
http://blog.gb-studio.tv/media/images/bmw_vs_audi.jpg
http://blog.gb-studio.tv/media/images/bmw_vs_audi.jpg
#38
Just based on the premise that Audi called out BMW with a base model A4 and they responded with "Checkmate" and an M3 means that Audi fails. The R8, as awesome as it is, cannot redeem them.
There is no response to checkmate, except to rage quit and violently flip the chessboard over in anger. If the ad had an R8 instead of an A4 though, it would be a different story.
By the way, this was Audi's response. Weak. oh and it was Audi NA that called out BMW as a brand, and the lone Santa Monica dealership came up with that... gold.
There is no response to checkmate, except to rage quit and violently flip the chessboard over in anger. If the ad had an R8 instead of an A4 though, it would be a different story.
By the way, this was Audi's response. Weak. oh and it was Audi NA that called out BMW as a brand, and the lone Santa Monica dealership came up with that... gold.
#40
lolumad? ....no
Audi's bright advertising idea was just weak, I don't give a crap about who wins. BMW or Audi or both can go out of business tomorrow and I wouldn't lose a second of sleep.
The R8 is in a class of its own though at least compared to what BMW has to offer. I've never liked the M6 or any 6-series for that matter either
Audi's bright advertising idea was just weak, I don't give a crap about who wins. BMW or Audi or both can go out of business tomorrow and I wouldn't lose a second of sleep.
The R8 is in a class of its own though at least compared to what BMW has to offer. I've never liked the M6 or any 6-series for that matter either