TSX - where is all the hype and speculation? (somewhat off topic)
01-02-2003, 11:17 PM
#41
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Originally posted by vwtrekin
Ok I am confused. Some of you act like you have seen this car. Are there pics somewhere??or not?
Ok I am confused. Some of you act like you have seen this car. Are there pics somewhere??or not?
See here:
http://www.supercarsite.net/accord_type_s.htm
Or visit http://www.clubtsx.com for all the latest
01-02-2003, 11:23 PM
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01-03-2003, 12:04 AM
#43
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01-03-2003, 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by hotelniko14
NEW TSX PICS REAL DEAL UP>>>>
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/provench/...ra+TSX&.view=t
NEW TSX PICS REAL DEAL UP>>>>
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/provench/...ra+TSX&.view=t
http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/showthrea...=&threadid=121
Yahoo is gonna love me
01-03-2003, 12:35 AM
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It also sounds to me that the TSX is more direct competion for the Mazda 6 and the VW Jetta than anything else.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
01-03-2003, 12:37 AM
#47
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2.4 Liter DOHC, I-VTEC
200 Horsepower@6800 rpm; 166lbs-ft of Torque@4500 rpm
5 sp sequential auto transmission
6 sp close ratio manual transmission
Drive by wire throttle system
Double wishbone suspension
VSA
17 inch Alloy whls P215/50 R 17 Tires
Dual stage airbags, side airbags and side curtain airbags
HID headlights
Navi system with voice recognition
perforated leather seats
dual zone auto climate control
360 total watts audio system with 8 speakers and 6 disc in dash changer
Thats your standard trim not the Type S.
200 Horsepower@6800 rpm; 166lbs-ft of Torque@4500 rpm
5 sp sequential auto transmission
6 sp close ratio manual transmission
Drive by wire throttle system
Double wishbone suspension
VSA
17 inch Alloy whls P215/50 R 17 Tires
Dual stage airbags, side airbags and side curtain airbags
HID headlights
Navi system with voice recognition
perforated leather seats
dual zone auto climate control
360 total watts audio system with 8 speakers and 6 disc in dash changer
Thats your standard trim not the Type S.
01-03-2003, 12:43 AM
#48
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Originally posted by Zapata
You, cusdaddy, sidemarker,
Are all on crack. The car and it's competition is SO blantantly obvious. Whether it's being close minded or your crack habit, all three of you are COMPLETELY missing the point. But you will see in due time.
BTW.....325ci only has Torque: 175 ft-lbs and the TSX is reportedly to have 166ftlbs SO please spare me the Acura 4 banger having NO trq.
You, cusdaddy, sidemarker,
Are all on crack. The car and it's competition is SO blantantly obvious. Whether it's being close minded or your crack habit, all three of you are COMPLETELY missing the point. But you will see in due time.
BTW.....325ci only has Torque: 175 ft-lbs and the TSX is reportedly to have 166ftlbs SO please spare me the Acura 4 banger having NO trq.
i just checked out the pics here http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=90244the front end looks nice. but from that rear shot looks kinda like an accord or last gen camry. interior is nice but is very similar to the accord.
i never argued over the power issue. but i dont care if that 4 banger has 260 hp! it is still not going to drive smooth as a 6 cylinder nor will it have the performance when you have a loaded car.
i guess your point is that the TSX will compete against the 3 series, IS 300 and A4. eventhough our lovely tl and cl can barely keep up with them performance wise. if the TSX was a rear wheel drive then yes i will give it props but in the mean time i dont think you can compare tsx vs 325 vs IS vs A4. completely differnent league here. but i will compare it to the accord v6 and altima v6.
sidemarker
01-03-2003, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by DtEW
It also sounds to me that the TSX is more direct competion for the Mazda 6 and the VW Jetta than anything else.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
It also sounds to me that the TSX is more direct competion for the Mazda 6 and the VW Jetta than anything else.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
sidemarker
01-03-2003, 12:33 PM
#50
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DtEW: I couldn't have said it better myself.
166lb/ft is not bad, but not great.
My parents recently bought an '03 Accord I-4. It has 161lb/ft and is a similar engine -2.4L iVTEC- (albeit de-tuned) to the TSX.
That engine is lacking in the torque department. It moves fine for my parents needs, but it is still a 4 cylinder. Compared to an average v6, it is buzzy, noisy and overall a little unrefined.
The car it replaced for my parents was a Dodge Interpid with a 3.5L engine. Granted, the car was a total piece of junk, but the engine was quieter, smoother and had MUCH more torque. My parents said they love the Accord, but they miss having a v6.
IMO, when an average buyer decides to move up to a luxury marque, they look for more upscale features such as a refined and powerful v6. An I4 just doesn't cut it.
Again, this is just my opinion. I am sure it will sell, I just feel that Honda should include a v6 as an option
BTW.....325ci only has Torque: 175 ft-lbs and the TSX is reportedly to have 166ftlbs SO please spare me the Acura 4 banger having NO trq.
My parents recently bought an '03 Accord I-4. It has 161lb/ft and is a similar engine -2.4L iVTEC- (albeit de-tuned) to the TSX.
That engine is lacking in the torque department. It moves fine for my parents needs, but it is still a 4 cylinder. Compared to an average v6, it is buzzy, noisy and overall a little unrefined.
The car it replaced for my parents was a Dodge Interpid with a 3.5L engine. Granted, the car was a total piece of junk, but the engine was quieter, smoother and had MUCH more torque. My parents said they love the Accord, but they miss having a v6.
IMO, when an average buyer decides to move up to a luxury marque, they look for more upscale features such as a refined and powerful v6. An I4 just doesn't cut it.
Again, this is just my opinion. I am sure it will sell, I just feel that Honda should include a v6 as an option
01-03-2003, 09:02 PM
#53
Cost Drivers!!!!
DTEW,
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
Originally posted by DtEW
It also sounds to me that the TSX is more direct competion for the Mazda 6 and the VW Jetta than anything else.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
It also sounds to me that the TSX is more direct competion for the Mazda 6 and the VW Jetta than anything else.
What previous posters have said about the 4-cyl vs. 6-cyl issue is completely correct. Regardless of how much power it may ultimately generate, people other than the hardcore sports-driving fans and those bound by economic constraints just simply won't regard small-displacement, rev-oriented power with much enthusiasm. It is established in the minds of the average American car shopper as the surefire sign of "low rent". It is for this reason BMW dropped the 318i from its US lineup long ago. It is for the same reason Inifiniti got rid of the G20. It is the reason why Lexus will never have a 4-cyl car in their lineup.
And frankly, people with more hardcore sporting intent than the common buyer would opt for RWD or AWD, regardless of whether it's a 4-cyl or 6-cyl powering it. It's the precise reason why Honda developed the S2000 to exploit the roadster resurgence in North America and at the same time be perceived more seriously against their JDM mid-level competitors (Silvia, MR2 Turbo, Lancer Evo VII, Subaru WRX STi). Aside from basic technical limitations with just getting the FWD ITR to be competitive with that particular crowd, a stripped and gussied-up car ultimately based on the Civic just wasn't going to cut it with the enthusiast shoppers.
So again, the situation in the US is that the nouveau-somewhat-well-to-do sports-sedan aspiring crowd is going to be turned off by three facts:
1. It isn't European...
2. It isn't a Lexus (the badge worship is finally there)...
3. And it's only a plain (meaning not F/I) 4-cylinder.
In other words, to them it's a basically a G20 with more power. There's no European heritage to fuel their imagination (remember how Infiniti tried and tried to infuse the G20 with that particular aura with those TV ads that kept harping on its supposedly "tuned on the racetracks of Europe" suspension, and hence its "European upbringing"?) There's no "L" on the hood to join the ranks of the New Yuppies. There's only a 4-cylinder, like whatever econobox they currently have. Between this and a cheap 6-cyl BMW or Lexus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine their choice.
On the other hand, an enthusiast shopper can fault the car for any combination of reasons from the above list, with these two additions:
1. 4-cylinder torque curve...
2. And FWD.
Regardless of the actual capabilities of the car (which also won't go toe-to-toe with the RWD sport sedans considering that the much lighter ITR (DC2) and RSX-S are performing only as well against the 600-900lb heavier RWD sedans; see here, and here, and here), even enthusiasts are spec-shoppers and will discount a car if there is a design or spec that they deem as basically inferior to a competitor. Case-in-point, take the Mazda Miata. Many people won't take a second look at that car because of it's low horsepower relative to its segment competitors, nevermind that the Miata rips a new one in the WRX, ITR (DC2), RSX-S , Celica GT-S, Sentra Spec V, GTI, etc. in any race where there are any curves involved. People are just biased against it because the power seems incomparable. This effect will afflict consideration for the TSX if its compared to the RWD sport sedans that some in this thread insists are its competitors.
To appreciate the TSX, you've got to be that specific buyer who can tolerate a high-strung 4-cyl, can accept FWD in a sporting vehicle, and needs four doors. Those people sound more like the 4-door-desiring subset of the audience for the RSX and Celica, and the upscale-desiring subset of the audience for the Sentra Spec V and Mazda 6.
And part of that completely explains the lack of enthusiasm for the TSX on this board. If you bought a CL, you obviously don't need four doors nor did you want the engine of the Prelude.
01-03-2003, 10:04 PM
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01-03-2003, 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Well I'd rather be on crack with Sidemarker, Cusdaddy and DTEW than drug-free owning a TSX.
Well I'd rather be on crack with Sidemarker, Cusdaddy and DTEW than drug-free owning a TSX.
01-03-2003, 10:57 PM
#56
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Originally posted by Zapata
DTEW,
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
DTEW,
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
I love my cl-s NO COMPLAINTS! i know you do too because you went from an auto to the 6 speed
but it dosent change the fact that some people out there have purchased an acura because they felt it was a move up or "upscale status" i got this car for YES THE VALUE; ALSO i felt it was a step up above the mediocre car companys. you just cant be one sided and call people "short-sited" or "ignorant" its just a car! everyone buys something for a reason, either it was for the value or for the status or both you have to accept that there are people who bought it just for the status. whats going to happen to those customers when everyone can afford an acura? also there are certain things you have to put into standards. i believe cars should be based on some type of standard. my standards are different from yours but again you cant say we are ignorant or short-minded when our standards are different.sidemarker
01-03-2003, 11:16 PM
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Honda doesn't build a luxury line of cars so that Acura owners can feel like their part of some cool little club. They are trying to bring luxury to more people. Luxury can mean comfort and not just exclusivity. If you wanted to be exlusive, you should have looked at something much higher than $30k...Acuras are a dime a dozen around here. BMW, Benz, Jag...that's status.
01-03-2003, 11:48 PM
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Sidemarker, Since your main gripe is "everybody can afford an Acura," please don't feel bad for yourself. Acura always had a low priced car (integra). Now the cars that in your mind are exclusive (MB, BMW, Audi, etc) are actually moving DOWN market, so they will be in the same boat as you. I think it's worse for the guy who bought a SL600 a few years ago to now see the c coupe and upcoming A-class. In your eyes, that should be little more painful then a 30k CL-S and a 25k TSX in the same lineup.
Personally, I don't care. Acura always has been the non-showy luxo car. That's good for some people.
Personally, I don't care. Acura always has been the non-showy luxo car. That's good for some people.
01-04-2003, 12:01 AM
#59
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Originally posted by AcuraFan
Honda doesn't build a luxury line of cars so that Acura owners can feel like their part of some cool little club. They are trying to bring luxury to more people. Luxury can mean comfort and not just exclusivity. If you wanted to be exlusive, you should have looked at something much higher than $30k...Acuras are a dime a dozen around here. BMW, Benz, Jag...that's status.
Honda doesn't build a luxury line of cars so that Acura owners can feel like their part of some cool little club. They are trying to bring luxury to more people. Luxury can mean comfort and not just exclusivity. If you wanted to be exlusive, you should have looked at something much higher than $30k...Acuras are a dime a dozen around here. BMW, Benz, Jag...that's status.
this is straight from acura http://www.acura.com/about/abo_home_index.asp
THE LUXURY MARQUEE THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING
Acura is the performance luxury division of the American Honda Motor Company. Since 1986, it has consistently raised the performance standards for what Americans expect from a luxury car and sent the competition scrambling to keep up. From luxury performance coupes and sedans to the MDX sport-utility vehicle and the NSX exotic sports car, Acura builds automobiles for people who view driving as an end in itself, drawing on cutting-edge technology and tasteful yet aggressive design. Acura automobiles are rooted in performance, and this orientation extends to the company's involvement in the greater community. From the breadth of its sponsorship of sporting events and community functions, it should be clear that Acura respects and nurtures performance in all its forms.
i wonder what they mean by "greater community"?
http://www.acura.com/about/abo_ame_index.asp
On March 27, 1986, Acura introduced its very first automobile to the U.S., the Legend. It was the first Japanese luxury car on the market. Nearly a decade of research and development went into its creation, which combined the handling virtues, all-out performance, and comfort and convenience features traditionally found in upscale European and American luxury marques with reliability, uncompromising quality and user-friendly design that a generation of drivers had come to expect from the best automobiles in Japan.
Modestly priced but bursting with technological innovations, the Acura Integra appeared soon after the Legend. The Integra quickly topped the wish list of a generation of driving enthusiasts, a good-looking, crisp-handling yet reliable sports machine.
Along the way, Acura introduced many important firsts to the U.S. market. Among these are Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control (VTEC™), the use of an all-aluminum chassis and body, a drive-by-wire throttle, and a 4-channel Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS), all introduced in the NSX in 1990. In 1995, the NSX was the first car to offer the option of a Sequential SportShift™ automatic transmission, which permits both the manual gear selection found in Formula One racecars and the convenience of automatic.
Sixteen years after its debut, Acura is an acknowledged leader among luxury-performance imports. From a start-up in 1986 that featured three models, Acura now offers six distinct lines of automobiles, three of which, the TL, CL and MDX, were developed in the U.S. The TL and CL are manufactured and sourced in the U.S., and the MDX sport-utility vehicle, which was developed at Honda's R&D facilities in the U.S. specifically for rugged American terrain, is manufactured across Lake Erie in Ontario, Canada. Introduced in 2001, the MDX has proven exceptionally well-suited to its American birthplace, and a shining example of the synergy between Acura and the car-loving American public.
sounds like they are trying to make acura sound "exclusive" to me and if thats not there marketing strategy then i have no idea what kind of products they are selling...
sidemarker
01-04-2003, 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by Zoot
Sidemarker, Since your main gripe is "everybody can afford an Acura," please don't feel bad for yourself. Acura always had a low priced car (integra). Now the cars that in your mind are exclusive (MB, BMW, Audi, etc) are actually moving DOWN market, so they will be in the same boat as you. I think it's worse for the guy who bought a SL600 a few years ago to now see the c coupe and upcoming A-class. In your eyes, that should be little more painful then a 30k CL-S and a 25k TSX in the same lineup.
Personally, I don't care. Acura always has been the non-showy luxo car. That's good for some people.
Sidemarker, Since your main gripe is "everybody can afford an Acura," please don't feel bad for yourself. Acura always had a low priced car (integra). Now the cars that in your mind are exclusive (MB, BMW, Audi, etc) are actually moving DOWN market, so they will be in the same boat as you. I think it's worse for the guy who bought a SL600 a few years ago to now see the c coupe and upcoming A-class. In your eyes, that should be little more painful then a 30k CL-S and a 25k TSX in the same lineup.
Personally, I don't care. Acura always has been the non-showy luxo car. That's good for some people.
yeah i guess it dosent matter. i mean some people consider exclusive cars to be bentlys lambos rolls royce aston martin...
but i guess because im currently in that acura boat right now and i dont want any more people on it until i get off and get on the m3 boat
sidemarker
01-04-2003, 01:12 AM
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Wow...that's pretty self-absorbed...the "greater community" to you means what? "the better community"? The people who can afford exclusive cars? I'm sorry, but the "greater community" means "the larger community"...why do you think Acura focuses so much on value? So they can give those who can't afford exclusive cars a chance at some comfort and luxury...that's why they are priced only slightly higher than their mainstream cars. They price the CL/TL around $30k and position it to compete with cars running in the 40s so that the average consumer can buy one. Not so that someone who can pay $30K can have bragging rights over someone who can only afford a $25k car.
Having a $25K TSX will only knock you off what you percieve to be your high horse because you let it. No one else will care. My gosh! You're driving a CL, not an SL500! Get your head out of the clouds.
Having a $25K TSX will only knock you off what you percieve to be your high horse because you let it. No one else will care. My gosh! You're driving a CL, not an SL500! Get your head out of the clouds.
01-04-2003, 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by AcuraFan
Wow...that's pretty self-absorbed...the "greater community" to you means what? "the better community"? The people who can afford exclusive cars? I'm sorry, but the "greater community" means "the larger community"...why do you think Acura focuses so much on value? So they can give those who can't afford exclusive cars a chance at some comfort and luxury...that's why they are priced only slightly higher than their mainstream cars. They price the CL/TL around $30k and position it to compete with cars running in the 40s so that the average consumer can buy one. Not so that someone who can pay $30K can have bragging rights over someone who can only afford a $25k car.
Having a $25K TSX will only knock you off what you percieve to be your high horse because you let it. No one else will care. My gosh! You're driving a CL, not an SL500! Get your head out of the clouds.
Wow...that's pretty self-absorbed...the "greater community" to you means what? "the better community"? The people who can afford exclusive cars? I'm sorry, but the "greater community" means "the larger community"...why do you think Acura focuses so much on value? So they can give those who can't afford exclusive cars a chance at some comfort and luxury...that's why they are priced only slightly higher than their mainstream cars. They price the CL/TL around $30k and position it to compete with cars running in the 40s so that the average consumer can buy one. Not so that someone who can pay $30K can have bragging rights over someone who can only afford a $25k car.
Having a $25K TSX will only knock you off what you percieve to be your high horse because you let it. No one else will care. My gosh! You're driving a CL, not an SL500! Get your head out of the clouds.
by no means can you compare a cl to a sl 500 or acura to mercedes. but acura can compete against lexus and infinity, right? i just want acura to do well, very well. im not in the position to by a new car right now but some people are and they are jumping boats to the g35, z, 330 a4 s4. what is acura doing to keep their existing customers, selling them the TSX? you might see a lexus es300 owner move up to a gs then maybe to a ls or even the lx whatever. or the g35 to the q45 or even the a4 owner to the s4, but what does acura have to offer for the entry class cl/tl owners, the RL? from the last few years acura has made strong moves to make me believe they are growing, but the news of the RL not getting a v8 or even a RWD has detered me away. hopefully the new tl will make up for it.
sidemarker
01-04-2003, 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Zapata
DTEW,
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
DTEW,
I think we will perpetually disagree on basically every point. You and MANY of the other members of this board shit on Acura is 2nd rate luxury brand and everything you write and evaluate stinks of this bias. Some people are completely disgusted with their own cars. Acura doesn't have this, Acura doesn't have that etc., etc., The thing to remember with Acura is value. An acura will usually have more value for the price than a lexus/bmw/benz. Of course you can be 10k more for the same thing but i say the majority of buying public doesn't have the money for the bmw/lexus.
You can't seem to get off the high horse lexus platform. Cars must be RWD and that's final. That's ignorant and short-sited. You apply this one standard to everything you evaluate and you end up sounding like broken record. You end up sounding like a car magazine..... That being said......
No European lineage? What do you call the EuroAccord???????? Hate to burst your bubble but Euro stands for European. Incase you didn't know the car is rebaged as the TSX.
If I was talking out of my own perception of what I feel about the TSX, my post would be rather different from what it is. Instead, I am talking about what I think other people will perceive the TSX as.
You think I'm on a Lexus high horse. Frankly, I couldn't give a diddly sh!t about the differences between Lexus, Toyota, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, nor Nissan. I know these Japanese companies are all competent enough to produce a decent car that is built right. There are little philosophical differences that may draw one more toward one than the other.
But the fact of the matter is that the general public, or at least the vast majority of people I deal with, which would include the range of layfolk, nouveau-yuppies, middle-class, hardcore car nuts, wannabe ricers, and a bit of the academic community, all seem to perceive Lexus a bit differently than Acura. Is it a justifiable fact? I might say yes, just because Acura taken on the sport-luxury standards BMW and Mercedes in model-to-model direct competition as Lexus has done, but what I say doesn't matter. The fact is that this attitude exists. Hence my "badge-worship" comment.
In regard to the FWD vs. RWD issue, everything there is just plain fact, and hence why there is uniform aggreement between journalists, enthusiasts, and manufacturers. FWD is a platform dictated by economy and packaging. FWD can be made athletic, but it'll always take more relative rubber, more relative power, and less relative weight to achieve a given level of performance than RWD or AWD. That's an undeniable fact. Anybody who knows this might still accept FWD, but will not consider it the best possible solution knowing its performance inefficiency. To me and them it'll always be a basically non-performance-oriented design polished to the best it could possibly be. On the flip side of the coin, anybody who doesn't know this will look at the fact that all the truly upscale and sporty cars are never FWD and will infer a comparable conclusion.
Nobody in the car buying public knows nor cares about the European Accord. Again you're mistaking what I'm saying as arguments for/against the TSX. It isn't a competitor because nobody thinks of it as a Germanic car, or even something directly aping a Germanic car.
When it comes to sport-luxury cars, Americans want German, specifically BMW. In the general car buying public, any appreciation for the IS300, G35, and even the CTS is all based upon the fact that they're all closely cribbed from the Bimmer formula. Supposing BMW had developed their sport sedans/coupes on an AWD, turbo-4 cyl AWD formula, that's what the IS300, G35, and the CTS would have to be even compared to the Germans. This is also of course why the ES300, I35, Millenia, nor the G20 were never considered true competitors. This is why the TSX will be a nice car, but not considered a value alternative to that class of cars.
01-04-2003, 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by DtEW
I really don't care enough about this subject to truly debate it, but I think your preconceptions of who I am is clouding your reading of what I wrote.
If I was talking out of my own perception of what I feel about the TSX, my post would be rather different from what it is. Instead, I am talking about what I think other people will perceive the TSX as.
You think I'm on a Lexus high horse. Frankly, I couldn't give a diddly sh!t about the differences between Lexus, Toyota, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, nor Nissan. I know these Japanese companies are all competent enough to produce a decent car that is built right. There are little philosophical differences that may draw one more toward one than the other.
But the fact of the matter is that the general public, or at least the vast majority of people I deal with, which would include the range of layfolk, nouveau-yuppies, middle-class, hardcore car nuts, wannabe ricers, and a bit of the academic community, all seem to perceive Lexus a bit differently than Acura. Is it a justifiable fact? I might say yes, just because Acura taken on the sport-luxury standards BMW and Mercedes in model-to-model direct competition as Lexus has done, but what I say doesn't matter. The fact is that this attitude exists. Hence my "badge-worship" comment.
In regard to the FWD vs. RWD issue, everything there is just plain fact, and hence why there is uniform aggreement between journalists, enthusiasts, and manufacturers. FWD is a platform dictated by economy and packaging. FWD can be made athletic, but it'll always take more relative rubber, more relative power, and less relative weight to achieve a given level of performance than RWD or AWD. That's an undeniable fact. Anybody who knows this might still accept FWD, but will not consider it the best possible solution knowing its performance inefficiency. To me and them it'll always be a basically non-performance-oriented design polished to the best it could possibly be. On the flip side of the coin, anybody who doesn't know this will look at the fact that all the truly upscale and sporty cars are never FWD and will infer a comparable conclusion.
Nobody in the car buying public knows nor cares about the European Accord. Again you're mistaking what I'm saying as arguments for/against the TSX. It isn't a competitor because nobody thinks of it as a Germanic car, or even something directly aping a Germanic car.
When it comes to sport-luxury cars, Americans want German, specifically BMW. In the general car buying public, any appreciation for the IS300, G35, and even the CTS is all based upon the fact that they're all closely cribbed from the Bimmer formula. Supposing BMW had developed their sport sedans/coupes on an AWD, turbo-4 cyl AWD formula, that's what the IS300, G35, and the CTS would have to be even compared to the Germans. This is also of course why the ES300, I35, Millenia, nor the G20 were never considered true competitors. This is why the TSX will be a nice car, but not considered a value alternative to that class of cars.
I really don't care enough about this subject to truly debate it, but I think your preconceptions of who I am is clouding your reading of what I wrote.
If I was talking out of my own perception of what I feel about the TSX, my post would be rather different from what it is. Instead, I am talking about what I think other people will perceive the TSX as.
You think I'm on a Lexus high horse. Frankly, I couldn't give a diddly sh!t about the differences between Lexus, Toyota, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, nor Nissan. I know these Japanese companies are all competent enough to produce a decent car that is built right. There are little philosophical differences that may draw one more toward one than the other.
But the fact of the matter is that the general public, or at least the vast majority of people I deal with, which would include the range of layfolk, nouveau-yuppies, middle-class, hardcore car nuts, wannabe ricers, and a bit of the academic community, all seem to perceive Lexus a bit differently than Acura. Is it a justifiable fact? I might say yes, just because Acura taken on the sport-luxury standards BMW and Mercedes in model-to-model direct competition as Lexus has done, but what I say doesn't matter. The fact is that this attitude exists. Hence my "badge-worship" comment.
In regard to the FWD vs. RWD issue, everything there is just plain fact, and hence why there is uniform aggreement between journalists, enthusiasts, and manufacturers. FWD is a platform dictated by economy and packaging. FWD can be made athletic, but it'll always take more relative rubber, more relative power, and less relative weight to achieve a given level of performance than RWD or AWD. That's an undeniable fact. Anybody who knows this might still accept FWD, but will not consider it the best possible solution knowing its performance inefficiency. To me and them it'll always be a basically non-performance-oriented design polished to the best it could possibly be. On the flip side of the coin, anybody who doesn't know this will look at the fact that all the truly upscale and sporty cars are never FWD and will infer a comparable conclusion.
Nobody in the car buying public knows nor cares about the European Accord. Again you're mistaking what I'm saying as arguments for/against the TSX. It isn't a competitor because nobody thinks of it as a Germanic car, or even something directly aping a Germanic car.
When it comes to sport-luxury cars, Americans want German, specifically BMW. In the general car buying public, any appreciation for the IS300, G35, and even the CTS is all based upon the fact that they're all closely cribbed from the Bimmer formula. Supposing BMW had developed their sport sedans/coupes on an AWD, turbo-4 cyl AWD formula, that's what the IS300, G35, and the CTS would have to be even compared to the Germans. This is also of course why the ES300, I35, Millenia, nor the G20 were never considered true competitors. This is why the TSX will be a nice car, but not considered a value alternative to that class of cars.
1. why don't we just BAN THIS C.UNT?
2. The TSX is probably going to be a sales hit, why? because of hype! american's buy HYPE! and as for all your FWD bashing, just remember that the #1 selling luxury car in america last year, was none other than a rebadged FWD grocery getter--> camry---> ES300!! bottom line: FWD luxury can outsell the competition, and at the end of the day, thats all that matters!
01-04-2003, 10:44 PM
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yeah seriously, the accord and camry are the best selling cars in the states for the past so odd years...DtEW what in the hell do you call a true car enthusiast? someone who spends over 50k on a car? someone who thinks horsepower is everything? What? there is no true definition of a true car enthusiast.
and.....BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN!!!
and.....BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN!!!
01-05-2003, 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by DtEW
Not that the intent was to ever cause a stir, as I've always said nothing more than the obvious...
But you two just made my day.
Not that the intent was to ever cause a stir, as I've always said nothing more than the obvious...
But you two just made my day.
You make a lot of sense, it's refreshing to read an intelligent, well-written, grammatically correct post once in a while, regardless of our differences in opinion. Thanks,
Pete
(there is NO sarcasm in this post, I truly mean the above)
01-05-2003, 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by TL_Type_S
DtEW, you make a lot of sense, it's refreshing to read an intelligent, well-written, grammatically correct post once in a while, regardless of our differences in opinion.
DtEW, you make a lot of sense, it's refreshing to read an intelligent, well-written, grammatically correct post once in a while, regardless of our differences in opinion.
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