The truth about child car seats
#1
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The truth about child car seats
I was talking to a friend about car seats, and I remembered this episode of the Daily Show where they had a statistician on. He was talking about how "common sense" policy decisions do not always driven by facts but rather by ideology. One of the examples was that reduced crime rate is in the US over the past several decades directly correlates with only one thing: the availability of abortions. So if that's what the facts show and one is against crime, they should support abortion. But obviously that isn't politically possible.
Another example he mentioned, and didn't elaborate on, was the efficacy of car seats. I only remember this vaguely, but I think he was saying that children car seats aren't really proven to save lives. This surprised me, and I Googled a lot on this, but everything that comes up just assumes that you need a car seat, they rank various car seats, they say car seats are great, but I haven't seen any raw data that shows clearly that car seats have reduced the number of deaths/injuries. It's kind of like the debate of whether lowering the speed limit on residential roads from 60 km/h to 40 km/h really saves lives, you have people who scream and yell "save the children!" and then you have people who quietly wonder "ok, but does doing this really help solve the problem?" but it's not politically correct to ask the question.
Another example he mentioned, and didn't elaborate on, was the efficacy of car seats. I only remember this vaguely, but I think he was saying that children car seats aren't really proven to save lives. This surprised me, and I Googled a lot on this, but everything that comes up just assumes that you need a car seat, they rank various car seats, they say car seats are great, but I haven't seen any raw data that shows clearly that car seats have reduced the number of deaths/injuries. It's kind of like the debate of whether lowering the speed limit on residential roads from 60 km/h to 40 km/h really saves lives, you have people who scream and yell "save the children!" and then you have people who quietly wonder "ok, but does doing this really help solve the problem?" but it's not politically correct to ask the question.
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I was talking to a friend about car seats, and I remembered this episode of the Daily Show where they had a statistician on. He was talking about how "common sense" policy decisions do not always driven by facts but rather by ideology. One of the examples was that reduced crime rate is in the US over the past several decades directly correlates with only one thing: the availability of abortions. So if that's what the facts show and one is against crime, they should support abortion. But obviously that isn't politically possible.
....
....
You can't take an effect and make it the cause.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA
#9
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
He has some interesting ideas, I enjoyed his book and some of his speeches(he's done at least two TED talks), he also has a blog which can be interesting, but I don't think I would take what he claims too seriously with out a lot of independent research.
#10
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Another example he mentioned, and didn't elaborate on, was the efficacy of car seats. I only remember this vaguely, but I think he was saying that children car seats aren't really proven to save lives. This surprised me, and I Googled a lot on this, but everything that comes up just assumes that you need a car seat, they rank various car seats, they say car seats are great, but I haven't seen any raw data that shows clearly that car seats have reduced the number of deaths/injuries.
Presumably all of our legislators and/or their staffs vetted hard numbers and data before enacting the various safety seat requirement laws!
Try Googling for "ejection," "child" and "safety seats."
#11
Not Registered
My child in a 5-point harness or this!
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#12
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
My child in a 5-point harness or this!
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But then again, the speed limits here were set in 1950, and have not changed (80 Km/h on their version of an interstate toll road), 60 Km/h or lower on smaller roads. So maybe the snail pace and a vehicle free for all is OK?
#13
The sizzle in the Steak
Op: Put down the bong.
#14
Go Giants
#15
I read Freakanomics. I'm a statistician by trade, and he does bring up interesting ideas regarding underlying factors for a variety of subjects. Interesting stuff, but only that. Its merely interesting.
The notion that correlation does not infer causation is a good thing to keep in mind while reading the book.
The notion that correlation does not infer causation is a good thing to keep in mind while reading the book.
#16
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I think the reason for car seats was that they were properly sized to keep children from being ejected or tossed around in a collision, as children otherwise could be ejected or tossed about the interior even if restrained by the regular adult restraints.
Presumably all of our legislators and/or their staffs vetted hard numbers and data before enacting the various safety seat requirement laws!
Try Googling for "ejection," "child" and "safety seats."
Presumably all of our legislators and/or their staffs vetted hard numbers and data before enacting the various safety seat requirement laws!
Try Googling for "ejection," "child" and "safety seats."
#18
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My quick Google brings up support for car seats, like this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15043136, or this: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/806890.html.
BTW, "reasonable-sounding" people are the best con artists-- trust me on this!
#19
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Ask the "reasonable-sounding guy," I guess.
My quick Google brings up support for car seats, like this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15043136, or this: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/806890.html.
BTW, "reasonable-sounding" people are the best con artists-- trust me on this!
My quick Google brings up support for car seats, like this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15043136, or this: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/806890.html.
BTW, "reasonable-sounding" people are the best con artists-- trust me on this!
#20
I'm the Firestarter
Thread Starter
Ask the "reasonable-sounding guy," I guess.
My quick Google brings up support for car seats, like this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15043136, or this: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/806890.html.
BTW, "reasonable-sounding" people are the best con artists-- trust me on this!
My quick Google brings up support for car seats, like this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15043136, or this: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/806890.html.
BTW, "reasonable-sounding" people are the best con artists-- trust me on this!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/ma...REAK.html?_r=1
July 10, 2005
The Seat-Belt Solution
By STEPHEN J. DUBNER and STEVEN D. LEVITT
A Car-Seat Crash Test
On a recent Monday morning, nearly 20 police officers gathered in Clarkstown, N.Y., for a four-day seminar. They had assembled to fight one of modernity's great scourges: child deaths in motor-vehicle crashes. Each officer was given a 345-page training manual issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). At seminar's end, each would be certified as a ''child passenger safety technician,'' which primarily means that they would be experts in the installation and use of child car seats.
Why does it take four days to learn about car seats? Because any given seat is a tangle of straps, tethers and harnesses built by one of dozens of manufacturers whose products must be secured by the diverse seat-belt configurations of any passenger vehicle sold in the United States. According to the NHTSA manual, more than 80 percent of car seats are improperly installed.
So over the course of those four days, there were many questions to be answered. But one question about car seats is rarely even asked: How well do they actually work?
They certainly have the hallmarks of an effective piece of safety equipment: big and bulky, federally regulated, hard to install and expensive. (You can easily spend $200 on a car seat.) And NHTSA data seem to show that car seats are indeed a remarkable lifesaver. Although motor-vehicle crashes are still the top killer among children from 2 to 14, fatality rates have fallen steadily in recent decades -- a drop that coincides with the rise of car-seat use. Perhaps the single most compelling statistic about car seats in the NHTSA manual was this one: ''They are 54 percent effective in reducing deaths for children ages 1 to 4 in passenger cars.''
But 54 percent effective compared with what? The answer, it turns out, is this: Compared with a child's riding completely unrestrained. There is another mode of restraint, meanwhile, that doesn't cost $200 or require a four-day course to master: seat belts.
For children younger than roughly 24 months, seat belts plainly won't do. For them, a car seat represents the best practical way to ride securely, and it is certainly an improvement over the days of riding shotgun on mom's lap. But what about older children? Is it possible that seat belts might afford them the same protection as car seats?
The answer can be found in a trove of government data called the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), which compiles police reports on all fatal crashes in the U.S. since 1975. These data include every imaginable variable in a crash, including whether the occupants were restrained and how.
Even a quick look at the FARS data reveals a striking result: among children 2 and older, the death rate is no lower for those traveling in any kind of car seat than for those wearing seat belts. There are many reasons, of course, that this raw data might be misleading. Perhaps kids in car seats are, on average, in worse wrecks. Or maybe their parents drive smaller cars, which might provide less protection.
But no matter what you control for in the FARS data, the results don't change. In recent crashes and old ones, in big vehicles and small, in one-car crashes and multiple-vehicle crashes, there is no evidence that car seats do a better job than seat belts in saving the lives of children older than 2. (In certain kinds of crashes -- rear-enders, for instance -- car seats actually perform worse.) The real answer to why child auto fatalities have been falling seems to be that more and more children are restrained in some way. Many of them happen to be restrained in car seats, since that is what the government mandates, but if the government instead mandated proper seat-belt use for children, they would likely do just as well / without the layers of expense, regulation and anxiety associated with car seats.
NHTSA, however, has been pushing the car-seat movement ever further. The agency now advocates that all older children (usually starting at about age 4) ride in booster seats, which boost a child to a height where the adult lap-and-shoulder belts fit properly. Could this be a step in the wrong direction? In 2001, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety sent NHTSA a memo warning that its booster-seat recommendations were ''getting ahead of science and regulations'' and that certain booster seats ''did not improve belt fit, and some actually worsened the fit.''
If car seats and booster seats are shown in the FARS data to be no more effective than seat belts, might it be because so many of them are improperly installed? To find out, we contacted an independent lab that conducts crash tests. The idea was simple: compare properly installed car seats with properly used standard seat belts. We commissioned two crash tests: a 3-year-old-sized dummy in a car seat versus a 3-year-old dummy in lap-and-shoulder belt; and a 6-year-old-sized dummy in a booster seat versus a 6-year-old dummy in lap-and-shoulder belt.
The conditions of the test ensured that the seats would perform optimally: they were strapped to old-fashioned bench-style seats (which give a flush fit) by an experienced engineer (who is presumably more competent than the average parent). The dummies in the seat belts were also positioned optimally, sitting upright and flush.
The chore was gruesome, from start to finish. Each dummy, dressed in shorts, T-shirt and sneakers, had a skein of wires snaking out of his body to measure head and chest damage. The pneumatic sled was fired backward with a frightening bang, simulating a 30 m.p.h. frontal crash; on impact, the dummy's head, legs and arms jerked forward, fingers flailing in the air, and then the head recoiled.
Within minutes, we had some data. Though the lap-and-shoulder belts rode too high on the 3-year-old dummy, the head- and chest-impact data were only nominally higher than that for the 3-year-old in the car seat; according to federal standards, most likely neither child would have been injured. In the second test, the 6-year-old in the booster and the 6-year-old in the seat belt produced virtually identical numbers. Again, most likely neither one would have been injured.
These tests don't actually prove much. The sample was too small, the circumstances were too controlled and the sensors didn't measure neck or abdominal injuries, which child-safety advocates say are worse with seat belts. What matter are the crash data from the real world, where one 4-year-old in a lap-and-shoulder belt may find the shoulder belt so irritating that he puts it behind his back and another 4-year-old may be in a poorly installed car seat. And when it comes to real-world situations, the FARS data are extremely compelling.
So if car seats and booster seats aren't the safety miracle that parents have been taught to believe, what should they do? The most important thing, certainly, is to make sure that children always ride with some kind of restraint -- and, depending on your state, a car seat or booster seat may be the only legal option. On a broader level, though, it might be worth asking this question: Considering that Americans spend a few hundred million dollars annually on complicated contraptions that may not add much lifesaving value, how much better off might we be if that money was spent to make existing seat belts fit children? Some automakers do in fact make integrated child seats (in which, for example, the car's seat back flips down for the child to sit on); other solutions might include lap-and-shoulder belts that vertically adjust to fit children, or even a built-in five-point harness.
It may be that the ultimate benefit of car seats and booster seats is that they force children to sit still in the back seat. If so, perhaps there is a different contraption that could help accomplish the same goal for roughly the same price: a back-seat DVD player.
Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt are the authors of ''Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything.''
The Seat-Belt Solution
By STEPHEN J. DUBNER and STEVEN D. LEVITT
A Car-Seat Crash Test
On a recent Monday morning, nearly 20 police officers gathered in Clarkstown, N.Y., for a four-day seminar. They had assembled to fight one of modernity's great scourges: child deaths in motor-vehicle crashes. Each officer was given a 345-page training manual issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). At seminar's end, each would be certified as a ''child passenger safety technician,'' which primarily means that they would be experts in the installation and use of child car seats.
Why does it take four days to learn about car seats? Because any given seat is a tangle of straps, tethers and harnesses built by one of dozens of manufacturers whose products must be secured by the diverse seat-belt configurations of any passenger vehicle sold in the United States. According to the NHTSA manual, more than 80 percent of car seats are improperly installed.
So over the course of those four days, there were many questions to be answered. But one question about car seats is rarely even asked: How well do they actually work?
They certainly have the hallmarks of an effective piece of safety equipment: big and bulky, federally regulated, hard to install and expensive. (You can easily spend $200 on a car seat.) And NHTSA data seem to show that car seats are indeed a remarkable lifesaver. Although motor-vehicle crashes are still the top killer among children from 2 to 14, fatality rates have fallen steadily in recent decades -- a drop that coincides with the rise of car-seat use. Perhaps the single most compelling statistic about car seats in the NHTSA manual was this one: ''They are 54 percent effective in reducing deaths for children ages 1 to 4 in passenger cars.''
But 54 percent effective compared with what? The answer, it turns out, is this: Compared with a child's riding completely unrestrained. There is another mode of restraint, meanwhile, that doesn't cost $200 or require a four-day course to master: seat belts.
For children younger than roughly 24 months, seat belts plainly won't do. For them, a car seat represents the best practical way to ride securely, and it is certainly an improvement over the days of riding shotgun on mom's lap. But what about older children? Is it possible that seat belts might afford them the same protection as car seats?
The answer can be found in a trove of government data called the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), which compiles police reports on all fatal crashes in the U.S. since 1975. These data include every imaginable variable in a crash, including whether the occupants were restrained and how.
Even a quick look at the FARS data reveals a striking result: among children 2 and older, the death rate is no lower for those traveling in any kind of car seat than for those wearing seat belts. There are many reasons, of course, that this raw data might be misleading. Perhaps kids in car seats are, on average, in worse wrecks. Or maybe their parents drive smaller cars, which might provide less protection.
But no matter what you control for in the FARS data, the results don't change. In recent crashes and old ones, in big vehicles and small, in one-car crashes and multiple-vehicle crashes, there is no evidence that car seats do a better job than seat belts in saving the lives of children older than 2. (In certain kinds of crashes -- rear-enders, for instance -- car seats actually perform worse.) The real answer to why child auto fatalities have been falling seems to be that more and more children are restrained in some way. Many of them happen to be restrained in car seats, since that is what the government mandates, but if the government instead mandated proper seat-belt use for children, they would likely do just as well / without the layers of expense, regulation and anxiety associated with car seats.
NHTSA, however, has been pushing the car-seat movement ever further. The agency now advocates that all older children (usually starting at about age 4) ride in booster seats, which boost a child to a height where the adult lap-and-shoulder belts fit properly. Could this be a step in the wrong direction? In 2001, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety sent NHTSA a memo warning that its booster-seat recommendations were ''getting ahead of science and regulations'' and that certain booster seats ''did not improve belt fit, and some actually worsened the fit.''
If car seats and booster seats are shown in the FARS data to be no more effective than seat belts, might it be because so many of them are improperly installed? To find out, we contacted an independent lab that conducts crash tests. The idea was simple: compare properly installed car seats with properly used standard seat belts. We commissioned two crash tests: a 3-year-old-sized dummy in a car seat versus a 3-year-old dummy in lap-and-shoulder belt; and a 6-year-old-sized dummy in a booster seat versus a 6-year-old dummy in lap-and-shoulder belt.
The conditions of the test ensured that the seats would perform optimally: they were strapped to old-fashioned bench-style seats (which give a flush fit) by an experienced engineer (who is presumably more competent than the average parent). The dummies in the seat belts were also positioned optimally, sitting upright and flush.
The chore was gruesome, from start to finish. Each dummy, dressed in shorts, T-shirt and sneakers, had a skein of wires snaking out of his body to measure head and chest damage. The pneumatic sled was fired backward with a frightening bang, simulating a 30 m.p.h. frontal crash; on impact, the dummy's head, legs and arms jerked forward, fingers flailing in the air, and then the head recoiled.
Within minutes, we had some data. Though the lap-and-shoulder belts rode too high on the 3-year-old dummy, the head- and chest-impact data were only nominally higher than that for the 3-year-old in the car seat; according to federal standards, most likely neither child would have been injured. In the second test, the 6-year-old in the booster and the 6-year-old in the seat belt produced virtually identical numbers. Again, most likely neither one would have been injured.
These tests don't actually prove much. The sample was too small, the circumstances were too controlled and the sensors didn't measure neck or abdominal injuries, which child-safety advocates say are worse with seat belts. What matter are the crash data from the real world, where one 4-year-old in a lap-and-shoulder belt may find the shoulder belt so irritating that he puts it behind his back and another 4-year-old may be in a poorly installed car seat. And when it comes to real-world situations, the FARS data are extremely compelling.
So if car seats and booster seats aren't the safety miracle that parents have been taught to believe, what should they do? The most important thing, certainly, is to make sure that children always ride with some kind of restraint -- and, depending on your state, a car seat or booster seat may be the only legal option. On a broader level, though, it might be worth asking this question: Considering that Americans spend a few hundred million dollars annually on complicated contraptions that may not add much lifesaving value, how much better off might we be if that money was spent to make existing seat belts fit children? Some automakers do in fact make integrated child seats (in which, for example, the car's seat back flips down for the child to sit on); other solutions might include lap-and-shoulder belts that vertically adjust to fit children, or even a built-in five-point harness.
It may be that the ultimate benefit of car seats and booster seats is that they force children to sit still in the back seat. If so, perhaps there is a different contraption that could help accomplish the same goal for roughly the same price: a back-seat DVD player.
Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt are the authors of ''Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything.''
#21
Senior Moderator
Everytime I look at my daughter's car seat I get jealous. Why isn't my car seat that cool?
#22
Go Giants
My son is close to not needing the booster....Kinda looking forward to that.
#26
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
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#27
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So car seats are good for reducing injuries in less serious accidents, which probably are the majority of accidents. Levitt doesn't say we should stop buying and using the seats, obviously.
Another discussion of the car seat issue: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/womenf...8/article.html.
Make sure to install the car seats properly.
#28
I'm the Firestarter
Thread Starter
So it is a scam (for 2 years and older, obviously)... And we can't stop buying car seats, because we'll go to jail!
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Car Seats vs lap/shouler belts vs lap belts, ages 2 - 6:
.... We find no apparent difference in the two most serious injury categories for children in child safety seats versus lap-and-shoulder belts. Child safety seats provide a statistically significant 25% reduction in the least serious injury category. ....
#31
The sizzle in the Steak
It's a scam!!!!!
#32
I'm the Firestarter
Thread Starter
Looks like it depends what data is being looked at, and who looks at it. Children seats are not sold as a cure for minor injuries, we're told you must use it or your kids will die. If all they do is provide a "25% reduction in minor injuries" why aren't we informed that that is what they do? And would they be mandated by law if that's all they did? More importantly, would the $200/seat be better spent on a cheaper and more effective method of protection? Clearly the decision to legislate their use was based on the impression that they're supposed to save lives, when it looks like they don't. I think there's enough here for people to take notice and demand laws that are consistent with facts instead of gut feelings.
#33
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I've been in a minor accident with a child in the car - in a car seat. No injury. If it MAY have avoided an injury, $200 was a small price to pay (actually, at that time, the cost was probably more like $50).
I am now offically apathetic. My kids are grown; we don't need car seats anymore. I don't care.
However, don't let my apathy stop you from going downtown and protesting to your Prime Minister and legislative representatives.
BTW, I've seen a couple of your recent "Firestarter" posts outside of R&P. I think you miss Caddy.
I am now offically apathetic. My kids are grown; we don't need car seats anymore. I don't care.
However, don't let my apathy stop you from going downtown and protesting to your Prime Minister and legislative representatives.
BTW, I've seen a couple of your recent "Firestarter" posts outside of R&P. I think you miss Caddy.
#37
I'm the Firestarter
Thread Starter
I wouldn't be questioning this if there wasn't factual data that shows something is wrong with the trust we put in these expensive devices.
#38
Banned
Do you go racing in a 5-point harness that's attached to a heavy device that's sitting on a top of an uneven seat and is attached to it by two straps or a regular seatbelt, and 80% of the time is improperly installed? Makes a lot less sense if you look at it that way.
I wouldn't be questioning this if there wasn't factual data that shows something is wrong with the trust we put in these expensive devices.
I wouldn't be questioning this if there wasn't factual data that shows something is wrong with the trust we put in these expensive devices.
I'm guessing you don't have kids.
#39
I'm the Firestarter
Thread Starter
And I have two kids and bought 5 car seats so far. I like to think that mine are all properly installed.
#40
Banned
People who can't put car seats in properly shouldn't have kids. And there's a child seat safety check literally every weekend.
Properly installed, they're fine. It's not the manufacturer's fault that they aren't put in properly.
Properly installed, they're fine. It's not the manufacturer's fault that they aren't put in properly.