arro33

I know this discussion has been beat to death, but I'm still caught in a decision dilemma. What to blow 32k on....

My perplexity is partly based on my girlfriend having just brought home an ES330 (non-navi w/premium package) which drives like a dream. Quiet, classy looking, and quality build! And, it's a friggin' Lexus. All for 32k and loaded!

I test drove the Acura last weekend and it was very nice, but frankly the drive in the Lexus is better. It's more comfortable and cheaper. And, did I mention it's a LEXUS!

I currently drive an a '94 325i and I love it, but it's getting old and needs a few kk in fixing (AC, Muffler, etc..). Thus, I'm going to dump it was going to replace it w/ either TL, ES330, G35, or 325i. Hence this thread. Nissan's scare me (they're crap!). Thus, I think the G35 is out. Besides, it’s kind of ugly (looks like a hatchback). BMW is nice, and I do prefer RWD, but the trouble and repair bills I've had from my current beemer make me want to steer clear (Everything inside is plastic except my leather seats and it’s all fallen off at one time or another; so much for German quality!). Plus, a decked out 330 is far more expensive than a TL or ES330. Thus, I think I've come down to two choices and need some final help. This weekend is my target buy date if car max will give me 5k for the beemer (it only has 41k on it! Gonna miss it. Great fun drive! Just had to replace the computer. 1800 bucks for going through a car wash! Most friggin' expensive car wash I've ever been through; known problem with 94-'95 325i's and Beemer will do nothing. 'Nother reason not to go beemer).

So, ES330 or TL...Other than the TL having the phone bluetooth thing going for it, they are remarkabley similar cars. Both in the low to mid 30s, both decent quality. Both fast and powerful. Both FWD. Both have Navi available and both come in silver w/black leather interiors....Thus, what to buy, what to buy. It's a significant amount of money for me and I really want to make a good choice. Frankly, I look at it as acquiring a third girlfriend. First is the human one (she's great!), second is the BMW K75S (bikes are simply a superior ride given good weather conditions!), and third??? will be my 4-wheeled device that will bring me to and fro the "grind". Major decision nes't pas...!

The majority of my driving is a metropolitan commute (Northern Virginia to DC). Thus, I do not race or sneak out at night for the secret Vietnamese road rally (we have much of that in Falls Church, VA believe it or not...). Comfort, nice ride, luxurious amenities are what I'm after. Of course, reliability and little maintenance are the most important factors. Thus, my fellow TL lovers (girlfriend just dumped her Vigor for the Lexus. The Vigor was nice; the Lexus is better!), What should I get....TL or 330? HELP ME (I would prefer to hear from people who have driven both the 330 and the TL; I read that the ES is considered an "old man's" car by many. Simply not true and if you drive one, you'll find that it has the handling and the gusto. Bigger engine and has, roughly, the same speed/distance timings as the TL). And, it looks sharp (at least in silver; very expensive and classy looking!).

Lastly, is there anyone who can tell me what the best DC area Acura dealer is? Girlfriend got her Lexus at Pohanka and they were very cool. She offered 1k over invoice (this included her "amenities") and they took it. The Acura TL dealers have laughed at me when I offer 32k. I don't want to pay more than that and that includes their stupid destination and prep charge. Invoice is 31,575 and there's a $1024 dealer holdback. Thus, they are going to make 1500 bucks on a 32k offer. Not bad for a 5 minute cash transaction. I don’t need an hour of going over the car. I can RTFM! Anyone pay this amount for a Nav automatic or am I crazy? I’m using a sevice called “Carbargains” (checkbook.org) and hopefully they’ll find me a TL w/NAV for 32, but now I’m leaning towards the ES330 (kiss that $160.oo dollars away....damn!).

So, thank for your patience if you read this whole diatribe and help me by talking me out of the TL and into the 330 or into the TL and out of the 330. Thanks in advance, afm

TLover

Well, since your girlfriend has the Lexus, get the TL. Just switch cars when you want to drive the Lexus (assuming she lets you).

arro33

Yes she will let me drive. We own a home together and have lived w/eo for 8 years. The thing is: a) Will she be wanting to drive my TL all the time or b) Will I want to be driving her ES all the time (and regret my 32k mistake!).

Hence the thread.....

w1n78

you're gonna get bias answers here coz this is a TL forum lol

arro33

Perhaps I should have asked:

1) Of those that own 2004 TL's (Everyone here practically!), who regrets their purchase?

2) What problem(s) are you encountering with your TL?

These will help dissuade me from the purchase.....

alvon

Between the TL and the ES, TL drives better (more of a driver's car), but if you don't think so, then I suggest you buy the one that is less expensive, ie the ES. Plus, the current ES has been on the market for 3 years, so it will be slightly more reliable too.

Personally, I don't like the outside look of the ES, although its interior is simply beautiful.

1SICKLEX

You can't really determine a "best" as all 4 cars u mentioned are solid. You can only determine what is "best" for you. Since I've driven both, I can tell the differences between your top 2 choices.
If u want the top quality, the most luxurious interior, the quietest car with a soft ride and the extra panache of owning a Lexus (real loaners, dealer service, valet factor etc) then the ES is for you.
If u want a very good blend of lux and sport, with near class leading acceleration, with new gadgets and features, the TL is for you.

arro33

ES330 is new for this year!

Tristero

What a surprising result!!! Not only an Acura forum but a low near-lux price point.

I drove the usual suspects, as most others on this forum did. Lexus was a step below in handling, imho. I liked it but it felt "older" than I feel (at this point.) Loved the 330xi--boy. did it handle well--but I didn't want to pay through the nose for options and maintenance, and they're a dime a dozen in my neck of the woods... I bought the TL because it has everything (except RWD or AWD) and does oh so many things excellently.

Hard choice .... gotta go with the gut...

Acurich

I too drove the usual suspects when I decided to replace my 97 ES last fall. I was so disappointed in the performance of the ES330, when I tried to accelerate briskly the lag was like I was dialling up "all ahead full" from the bridge, it'm not sure how they've managed to disguise the 237 hp so well.
Also the car is BORING compared to the TL (or Maxima for that matter). When I asked about satellite radio the salesman told me it hadn't yet "migrated" down to the ES yet--amazingly they didn't even have an arrangement with the high end stereo shop two blocks away. Ditto for steering wheel audio controls.
However there is no comparison between the owner/dealer experience, I'll admit that. Acura has SO FAR to go in that regard, my first visit to service for rattles the service guy began by telling me he was doubtful they could quiet them.
But, my advice is, get the TL, you won't regret it.

alvon

Only the 3.3L engine is new, the rest of the car is essentially the same as 2002 and 2003.

ou sig

and that "new more powerful" engine is slower than my '99TL - it only has 225 HP while the TL has 270...pretty obvious if you ask me. the ES is boring

casooner90

Who buys ES? Mostly older women. That should tell you something about the car. I also checked out the lineup (G35, BMW, Lexus and A4) and settled on the TL for the value ($/fun). That was back in December. Now, you have all the media praising the TL so your decision should be much easier.

And, oh yeah, this forum is biased both towards the car and also against. Everyone will justify their purchase while bitching about every nit picking thing (gap in dash is too wide, aluminum scrathes too easily, steering wheel torques, blah, blah, blah).

1SICKLEX

So because u saw some older women driving the ES, ALL older women do? Reality check, the TL ain't the coolest car to be driving. Your acting like it's a Vette or Ferrari. Get a grip. LOoks like the media can't get past 3rd place. :toothless

jonro

You've received a lot of good advice here, but I'll throw in my 2 cents, anyway. Your choice, in the end, is going to come down to your personal taste and preference. I looked at all of the cars you mentioned. Originally, I was leaning toward an Infiniti (M45). I had 2 I30s previously and found them to be extemely reliable. In fact, in 6 years I never had to bring the car in for service. But I wanted a more performance-oriented car. The M45 was great, but it gets an overhaul in 2005 and I didn't feel like spending nearly $15,000 more for a (fully loaded) M45. The G35 is a great car, but I didn't like the interior. I wanted something more luxurious and sophisticated. I found the Lexus boring. The 300 series BMW is smaller than the TL, I didn't like the interior and I found it to be noisy. I thought it was overpriced. But, it does handle well. For my purposes, the TL blew the others away. Acura invented the Japanese luxury car market and they are still very well regarded. Lexus does have a marque, but the ES330 is at the bottom of the Lexus food chain. The TL is Acura's luxury sport sedan and I don't think they pulled any punches. This forum is full of happy TL owners, like myself. However, I haven't owned mine very long. Hopefully, I will be just as impressed 2 years from now. Good luck with your decision. Many people would be very happy to drive any of the cars you are choosing among. Myself, I believe the TL is at the top of that heap.

caball88

you know the results of this poll. its going to be way skewed.

Bobzmcishl

The choice for me came down to TL versus G35. The 325 is underpowered, and the ES330 is more a luxury car than sporting. I also drove a CTS but thought it too expensive and I get the GM retireee discount! In the end it was TL quality versus G35 RWD. Torque steer is the biggest problem so far with the TL, but for the price I don't think Acura has any serious competition. I just wish they would go to RWD. My wife has a 95 540i and it is a wonderful ride, but of course a new 545I is now over $ 60,000. BMW just got way too expensive, and Lexus cars are plain boring, as are most of the Toyota lineup.

KeithL

Lexus ES330 cheaper thana TL? Not when I looked.

I do regret my TL purchase, many squeaks and rattles, bad tires, several pits in the paint where it looks like stuff under the paint, Acura (oh I mean Honda) Customer service SUCKS BAD! I traied my I35 for the TL. I this the I36 was built better, just old in the tooth. I love the G35, can;t stand the interior and while the ES330 is not very sporty if I could have afforded one I woudl have gotten one, I feel there build quality is better and the materials they use are better. And I am sur eI am going to get flamed, but this is my opinion after 6 weeks of ownership and the car in the shp over 5 days and ready to go back again.

Xpditor

Doncha just know that we've all been there and done that? Since we're here, we probably came to similar conclusions.

I never seriously considered the ES330, but I do love Lexi, especially the IS300, LS430, RX330, GS300, GS400. They're all excellent cars. My prejudice against the ES330 is knowing that it's a Camry with some extra insulation and end caps. If the ES330 suits you- i.e. you like the cushy ride an understated plasti-elegance, save yourself about $4k and go for the Camry. The reliability is even better. Just don't kid yourself that it will perform and handle in the same league as the TL.

I don't agree that Nissans are crap. I just had the same one for 14 years and it was as sweet when I sold it as the day I bought. All I ever spent on it besides routine maintenance was tires, batteries, and wiper blades. 99,000 trouble-free miles (and NO car payments for 11 years). Ergo, the G35 Coupe was a strong contender in my book. It had the wonderful engine, rear wheel drive, good engineering but it was rather uninspired inside. The styling didn't really grab me like the TL does. Granted: it's quicker but it lacks all the wonderful features of a luxury car like the TL.

If you get the same equipment on a BMW that is standard on the TL, be prepared to spend about $15k more. That's for a 530i w/leather, sun roof, Navi, HID lights, upgrade audio, premium and sport pkg. And you would have one of the best cars made in the world. Butt-ugly from the rear, IMHO, but great German engineering, panache, cache', and status. Oh, and a wonderful driving experience. None better. ($15k!)

It all depends on what's important to you. Each car has its strong points and weak points. Don't expect to find a Navi TL for less than $33,000 unless you go to NJ where they seem to be cutting some good deals. (Ask for Tony Soprano- he's got one that fell off a truck)

X P

tobor

Buy the TL.
DC Metro Dealer -- TISCHER in Laurel Md. Their service is consistantly the best.
I had a Vigor they took care of it and me since 1992.
215k miles.
Bought new TL from them too.

You may not wish to cross the bridge from Va. but they are the truth.

Bimmer = $$$ maintenance - you have had the experience..
ES == well you may like the "prestige" look they do nothing for me. zzzzzzz boring
G35 === maybe with AWD but you still have to live with it.. No.

RAdams

Any idea why they don't even bother including the ES in those comparos? I'll take 10th place over not being invited.

berlinrl

Arro33,

I haven't bought my TL yet and I want to drive the Lexus 330 before I make
my decision. I understand that a lot of people say the Lexus is an old man's car,
but you need to decide for yourself. In your description, it sounds to me like you
really value the qualities for which Lexus excels.

OK, guys, I'm ready to get flamed!

Rachel

Nodoze2004

While the price may be relatively close, in my opinion the 2 cars are aiming for different clientele.

The TL will appeal to the "Sport Luxury" buyers while the ES will appeal to buyers more intersted in overall luxury. I liked the styling on previous ES models, but they have transformed it into a car only a true Lex loyalist could love. Pair that with Anemic styling and performance and it leaves me asking why anyone would buy this car??

Redsoxfan

hey arro, when i started looking I test drove 4 cars. The G35, ES330, S60, TL..all in that order.

This is what I found with the ES330 vs. the TL. One, i'm kind of a headcase and I think there's a stigma that goes along with driving a lexus. Kinda like "i wanna look like I have tons of money"..Yeah its dumb of me, but i think people in this area (I'm in DC too) try to keep up with the Jones' too much and get labels to impress others.

However, that being said, the reason I didn't get the ES330 has nothing to do with the car specifically. Drove smoothly, handled great, great interior, but I think it just looks too much like a camry and the ONLY people I EVER saw driving it was women over 50. I'm 32 and i seriously felt like I had to put a skirt on every time I would get in that car.

The TL doesn't lack anything that the ES330 has, IMHO, and with more extras as standard options, you'll actually end up paying less then you would on the ES330.

I went to Rosenthal Acura and talked to Scott Cohen. He's young guy, like me which makes me think he worked harder for my business. He was fair, got a great price and he actually followed thru with everything that he said.

Good Luck

Oswald Vater

Like the others here, I test drove all the cars you're looking at. In the end I picked another TL because of past experience, value for the money, and I just plain liked the car. The ES is great if you're looking for a soft luxurious ride but at 49 I just wasn't ready to drive around town like the older clientele Lexus aims at with that car. In the end it will be a personal decision: luxury only versus luxury/sport.

1SICKLEX

Sure, the ES ain't pretending to be a sports sedan. Toyota realized there was so much you could do with a FWD platform, so they just turned the ES into a luxo barge.

VQ35DE

IMO, the ES330 screams CAMRY, while the TL only whispers accord. Despite Lexus quality and plushness, I would NOT pick it over a similarly priced TL.

1SICKLEX

I think they both do a good job of hiding their Accord/Camry beginings. If u think TL whispers Accord, you haven't driven a V-6 Accord.

meathead

how much is the G35 coupe? i was under the impression you couldn't get it for less than 35k.

Bobzmcishl

I found that you could pick up a G35 for about $ 1,000 more than a TL but Infiniti is offering 1.9% financing which ends up making the car payments less. I just didn't see the quality I wanted in the G35 even though I thought the RWD G35 handled better than the TL.

1SICKLEX

You can get the discounted now, especially automatics. You will have a harder time finding a deal with the 6-speed and 6-speed with NAV. You can get an automatic G35c for 32k easy.

ItalnMuslNYC

If you look at the ES330 to a TL w/Nav.. the ES is $38,000.. and the TL is $34,000 (Give or take).. Both have great sound systems since when you get the Nav in the ES, it comes with the Mark Levinson sound system.. on the flipside, the TL has the DVD-A. So.. both are comporable - just different look.. but the TL is a much better car for your $$$. Yes the ES is classy.. I'll admit to that (my sister just bought one - black on black, tinted out windows, chrome rims, and gold package - total guidette car).. but the TL has much more to offer than the ES, and for $4K cheaper. If you get the ES without Navi, people might say "what's wrong?? You bought a Lexus and couldn't afford the Navi?" LOL. My opinion - go for the TL

dafunda

You're an old soul, go with the Lexus - the only reason you're looking at the TL/G35/325 is b/c it is sorta in the price range.

jtruman

You seem to place a lot on the name of Lexus over Acura. So, get the Lexus, if the name means that much to you.

The rest of us believe what Acura stands for (I drove a '91 Legend up until now, put 245,000 miles on it without any major problems).

Stewie

Yes, this has been beaten to death.

All the cars are different and all have good points and bad points.

I agree with you 100% about Nissan's quality going down the crapper and therefore ruling out the G35.

Stay away from the 325i because its just going to be redesigned in 6 months anyway. And either way the repair bills will catch up with you in the long run.

But if you're down to the ES330 vs. the TL IMO those are two different cars.
Both my dad and my uncle have ES's, which should give you some idea of the age of ES buyers.

Simply put the ES is a better luxury car while the TL is a better performance car.
So which do you want? Both are good cars but IMO the only way these cars compete is on price. Otherwise they are completely different.

And $32k seems awful cheap for a ES330. Must be stripped. My uncle paid near $40k for his. On the other had $32k is a very realistic price for a pretty-well loaded TL.

VQ35DE

The "Nissan's are crap" mentality is akin to the "Mercedes Benzes are high quality" mentality: not realistic.

Outside of three early issues on my 2002 Maxima (Acclerator pedal stopper, MAF sensor), I havent had any problems with it. No sunroof rattles (2G TL), body/interior rattles (2G & 3G TL) or auto tranny problems (2G TL and 6G Accord<---on my 2nd tranny-99 Accord). And I dont deem the Maxima HID theft issue as a quality impairment matter, rather a criminal matter.

However, my other Nissan has had problems: 2000 Nissan Quest. But, what can be expected when it's Ford built with Ford Parts (exc. engine, tranny and Nissan trim).

All that said, dont read too much into the Nissan quality thing. The only area Nissan fails miserably is in the area of Dealer Service; an issue Infiniti dealerships dont seem to have.

Peace.

arro33

ES330 stripped is 28k
32k gets you pretty much everything except Nav and "special" CD Changer/Sound system. However, it does give you a 6-CD changer and premium package. Invoice is 31K dealer took a k

arro33

I know it's a totally different "class" of car, but I used to own a Sentra..The piece of crap literally exploded in 2 1/2 years....I would Never buy another Nissan product...Just my experience...

arro33

PS. Me thinks your Uncle paid to much....

But, to end this thread...At least for me....I'm sold! I will go for the TL and report financing, dealer, colors, phone choice, etc....experience to one and all. Thanks for the help!

Dear Mr. Dealer,

Please prepare a nice shiny silver TL w/a black interior, automatic transmission, and a pretty screen that shows me where to go. Make it inexpensive and last a long time.

PS. Can I have 0.0% financing and invoice pricing?

Thank You

hnhoj

I currently own a 2000 TL-p and am highly considering giving it to my fiance and getting the '04 TL. That was the plan until I test drove an ES330. Both cars are great but I do have to say I love the refinement of the Lexus much more. Another knock I have of the TL is the smaller trunk. I carry alot of gear with me So the 11 cubic feet of trunk space isn't enough. I'd also like to buy new but another consideration I am currently entertaining is purchasing a certified pre-owned GS300 or possibly a GS400. Stepping up in class but staying in the same ball park price. Plus add to that rear drive. Hmmm....that might even be a better way to go!