So, despite all of my recent threads about getting a new subcompact, I'm seriously thinking about getting a Hybrid with the prospect of eventually negating the cost difference after 150k miles, while enjoying a better equipped car in the meantime. I'll be doing mostly 1-3 mi trips, which is terrible for fuel efficiency in both the Hybrid and the Gas-Only vehicles.

Here's what I mean:

Car A:

2007 Honda Civic EX Automatic
$18,452 purchase cost (Listed Invoice)
25 mpg lifetime average

Car B:
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid w/Navigation
$22,845 purchase cost (MSRP- $2100 Federal Tax Credit)
33 mpg lifetime average
10-yr/150k mi warranty on Battery Pack (CA)
15-yr/150k mi warranty on Emission Components (CA)

Cost Difference: $4393

Fuel Cost over 150k miles, @ $3.00/gal:

Car A: $13,636
Car B: $18,000

Cost savings: $4,364

But I guess the main question is, whether or not I'd like to be driving around a car with a lawnmower engine in the meantime, with exchange for having a Navigation system and being portrayed as an environmentally conscious person.

 

Why not a used Civic Hybrid? Or hell just a used Civic and save some $$$$ ?

I dont get people who spend $20,000+ on a "fuel efficient" compact car. Why not get a new Civic LX and have $5,000 for gas? Or a used Civic and have $10,000 for gas?

 

Well, I don't want a used car, period. And the new Civic Hybrids have a longer warranty on the battery pack.

And there are features in the Civic EX that I'd like, and the equipment level of the Hybrid trim is equivalent to that of the EX.

 

Well, if you want a new hybrid just ask yourself this: Am I honestly going to be keeping this car for 150,000 miles to get any sort of savings out of it?

 

^ that and we dont know how reliable these hybrids are in the long run. How much are new batteries for it? Stuff like that...

 

 

And I thought you were crazy for considering a Scion... For 20K I just couldn't justify a new car purchase... Sorry.

I stand by my private recommendation of an 04 or 05 Legacy GT sedan with low miles.

Mike

 

In CA, and a few other states where the AT-PZEV designation is available, hybrid components are warrantied for 15-yr/150k miles, and the battery is warrantied for 10-yr/150k miles, which is why I only calculated the costs for 150k miles. Battery replacements currently run about $3500, but will probably cost less in the future.

But I guess my real worry should be Honda's CVT.

 

Where are you figuring these 'lifetime average' mpgs? They seem pretty low to me. The 2007 Civic is rated 30-40mpg and Hybrid 49-51mpg. I think you can bump up your estimates quite a bit. Check fueleconomy.gov for some 'real' mileage data. It is not true that cars always get worse than they're rated. My 1990 Accord is rated 22-30 and I regularly average 33-35mpg. My CL is rated 19-29 and I average 27+ and frequently get 30-33 on the highway. For the record, I could not decide between the 2007 Civic EX and Hybrid either... I was leaning towards the Hybrid because I sit at stoplights a lot in which the engine would turn off and I wouldn't get as frustrated. Also I'm big on gas mileage, as you can tell. It's not always about saving money, we need to conserve our depleting resources and pollute less as well...

 

This is really a combination of several things.

First, 1-3 mi trips will not achieve peak efficiency for any car...hybrid or not. Such short trips will deliver very poor fuel efficiency, especially in the winter.

I checked on greenhybrid, and those who are doing trips of similar length told me to expect mid-30s on the Hybrids, especially during the winter. At best, upper 30s. In addition, who knows how much performance will degrade with these batteries as they approach higher mileage...must take that into account as well.

The gas-only Civic has been obtaining 25-27 mpg in short trips, based upon the friends that I have who have these cars.

In addition, CR tested the Civic Hybrid under their city conditions and obtained about 26mpg (overall 37 mpg in mixed driving), and the gas-only Civic obtained about 1/3 less, which is why I figured that the Hybrid Civic will obtain about 1/3 better fuel efficiency.

And really, I'm trying to picture worse-case senario here, but in actual driving, I hope the Civic Hybrid gets upper 30s overall, and the gas Civic, near 30.

 

So you saving 4k if you went 150k miles between gas vs hybrid? Isnt that kinda silly thing to figure out if you only driving 1-3 miles a trip. Would take FOREVER to see that savings then. Seems pointless to me.

You think too much.

 

I drive 23 miles each way to work... and only rack up like 12.5K miles a year...

For me it would take 12 years to get to 150K miles... and I'd bet that Mike would be driving less then that, so lets be conservative and say it's 10K miles a year or 15 years for a payback...

First, I don't see Mike having this car till he's into his 30's...

Second, it's only a savings of 266 dollars a year (if Mike owns it for the whole 15 year payout)... so that's like 72 cents a day... I've done the cost benefit analysis of my CLS vs a Civic (non-hybrid). I'm a cheap bastard, but even I don't mind spending more money on gas to have a bit of power, leather, heated seats/mirrors/etc...

Basically what it comes down to is: Buy what you want. If you want a hybrid 'cause you think it's cool, then buy a hybrid

You can rationalize the decision all you want, but just buy what you think you'll enjoy more... Life is too short to worry about 72 cents a day...

I'm biased against hybrids... I just look at it as another system on the car that can break...

Oh, and for a first car, I'd never advise a new car... You should get a previously loved Saturn or something

 

Please tell me the Hybrid isnt $$22,845 ? So you pay MORE for the car and get 72 cents a day savings in gas?

Fawk that, at 16 i rather get a Civic SI and enjoy myself Plus the civic sedan is ogly. IMO

 

i know your 16 or 17, seriousely ask yourself if you are going to keep this thing for 15 years?? i can't even keep a car for a year, i get bored and need something else. and i agree with greenmonster, he does have a valid point. it's only 72 cents a year a whole 250 or so a year in saving gas but you paid 4-5k more for the car, and has a lawnmower engine it. if you like cars and modding, it probably isn't for you and also the fact it's sloooooooooowwwwwwww. it's ur choice in the end.

i drive 100+ miles a day, and i will not consider an hybrid unless maybe if it was like an RX400h but even that idk, i like gas and gas burning engines.

 

and how do you know you're going to commute 1-3 miles over that 150k mile timespan?

 

If you're going to "enjoy a better equipped car in the meantime" how long do you think it will take for you to get to 150k miles?

By the time you reap the benefits, cars will be able to drive themselves. Hybrids are probably ridiculously boring to drive, very silent, CVT means more efficiency, but the car is slower and slower sounding. You can probably find a used 2007 or 2006 Civic for 15k or less.

 

Good point. You need to factor in the interest you would earn on the money lefttover from buying a non-hybrid as well.

 

Most stories I've seen show that there's no real financial payoff with hybrids just yet, until their efficiency is even better. Most folks either won't own the car long enough or drive enough to recoup the higher purchase price.

 

Inspite of the price difference/fuel savings the hybrid will have a higher residual value(percentage) then the non-hybrid for many years to come. So even if he doesn't keep it for 150k miles, it will probably be a cheaper car to own, it just costs a bit more up front. Trying to justify the purchase based only on fuel consumption is only half the picture with purchasing a hybrid. Another benefit is because you are purchasing a hybrid, its showing more demand for that type of vehicle, which will mean more R&D which will equate to better hybrids down the road.

 

Tireguy, what do you base higher resale on? My guess is that future hybrids will be MORE efficient, and these "first-gen" cars will lose their luster, not become "more" valuable. IF that were the case, Honda Insights at 70MPG would be going for crazy money, but they're depreciating like any other vehicle.

 

I guess the Insight though, was a bit of an oddball vehicle, and was quite "logistically inflexible."

 

Current used car value, check ebay the hybrids go for several thousand dollars more then the non-hybrids.

 

Sure, doens't that reflect their higher initial cost?

 

Partialy, but if a 2006 honda EX is selling for 65% of its original value, and a similarly optioned hybrid is selling for 75% its holding its value better(not just reflected by its higher initialy cost). Yes, as hybrid technology gets better there is a chance the price will drop more, but with the information we have now, the hybrid is the cheaper car to own. Not many people actually keep a car for over a 100k miles, in particular those who participate on a car forum.

 

If your trip is 1-3 miles each way, why are you getting a new car for this purpose? That seems pointless to me as well.
1-3 miles? Ride a bike, walk, get a scooter, or a bike.
Save that $$ & get something really nice in 2-3 years. Be the envy of your friends, get girls..

 

Forget the Civic Hybrid. If I'm getting a Hybrid, it'll be the Camry Hybrid or maybe the Prius. I went and rode around in the 07 Camry Hybrid today, and that car blew me away as far as my expectations. Great car, smooth ride, quiet, good pick-up. 35-40 mpg during the entire test drive per the onboard display.

The Civic? Went and rode around in that one after the Camry Hybrid. Felt like an entire step down. It's a decent little car, but it was noisy at moderate throttle and the ride was harsh. It was able to go 75-80 with 4 people and the AC on merging a freeway on ramp...but that's about it...I can't imagine what that car would be like if it was the less powerful Hybrid.

 

Don't forget you get to use the carpool lane. Probably not as huge of a perk in Sacramento as it is in the Bay Area.

 

You want a Camry at 16? Do you want to get beat up?

Or is this your parents car you shopping for? I mean dood, the Camry is starting at $26,850 so it better feel like a step up from the civic for that price difference.

 

Dude, I'm not going to get the Camry....are u kidding? I just thought it was a decent ride...but not for me definitely...though that V6 version is pretty quick. I'm getting the Civic EX...period...unless the redesigned Corolla is something really good.

subinf- by the time I get a car, they'll be out of carpool lane passes. But that's only if I get one, which seems unlikely.

 

Good call then.

Just curious though, why not the SI?

 

I don't know how to word this so bear with me. Buying a used car also doesn't contribute to the added "hybrid surge" where manufacturers are spending more money and fossil fuels to create these newer cars when there are used car already waiting on dealer lots that can get good gas mileage.

 

car pool lane is a joke here in so cal.

problems:

- too many people abusing the lane (single occupied cars
- stupid ass commercial drivers that drive under 40 when they should have stuck their ass in the slow moving lane but intsead impede traffic
- other idiot drivers that drive slow in the car pool lane and treat it as a sunday drive.

 

^ - There isn't that much of a problem with carpool lane abuse in the Bay. When I've been in the hybrid I've saved about 45 minutes in commute time each way.

 

I'm Jesalous

There have been many a day that I've added time to my commute by jumping in the carpool.

Today for instance, there were three vehicles holding up traffic. All three would lollygag driving like they had no place to go with a nealry a quarter mile gap between them and the car ahead of them at some moments driving a max of 40 or less most of the time. What struck me as ironic is a slow moving van jumped in front of the slow moving corolla that was ahead of us. The corolla was getting agitated by the slow van. I was finally able to pass both of them when the carpool exit came up and got back in the carpool. Low and behold the corolla come racing by and gets a few cars ahead of me and starts driving slow again. Stupid idiots

 

I don't drive stick at the moment...though that may change. Plus it used to be a coupe only, but now they have the sedan

But I think the main issue with the Si is the higher insurance cost, plus my dad doesn't really care for the more powerful engine and ricey appearance.