Is there still a wide margin in terms of reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?
11-02-2010, 03:14 PM
#82
wow, Porsche went from the bottom ten to first! Nice job!
11-02-2010, 03:53 PM
#83
The sizzle in the Steak
Well, the 599/Italia had better be a great driving experience at that price. 
I'd also expect it to clean my socks.
To your point, again, you were stating that a great driving experience could not be had without pushing technology. Well, I already gave you an example of a car that one could argue did not. Heck, the Ariel Atom...what the hey is in that car? Or Lotus Elise...? They are pretty bare if you ask me and are not crammed with as you call it, "cutting edge" stuff...
I'd also expect it to clean my socks.
To your point, again, you were stating that a great driving experience could not be had without pushing technology. Well, I already gave you an example of a car that one could argue did not. Heck, the Ariel Atom...what the hey is in that car? Or Lotus Elise...? They are pretty bare if you ask me and are not crammed with as you call it, "cutting edge" stuff...
...Today's supercars are full of cutting edge body, suspension, engine, electronics...etc. They produce a driving experience like no other...but they are typically not good for your daily driver in terms of reliability.
11-02-2010, 03:55 PM
#84
The sizzle in the Steak
Again, not true with many (the vast majority) of Japanese products
Look at the extremely positive long term test for the Nissan GT-R on Motortrend...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ict/index.html
Look at the extremely positive long term test for the Nissan GT-R on Motortrend...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ict/index.html
...and yes the GT-R wins the award for ugliest halo car. (That's for you, Statler)
11-02-2010, 03:58 PM
#85
The sizzle in the Steak
Same lame excuse the Ferrari road and racing engineers told Montezemolo when took over as CEO 2 decades ago.
After berated the engineers who suggested that in a open meeting he challenged them to give him reliability and performance.
At the time Renault was the engine to beat in F1 and he was not please that a French V10 motor was not only more powerful than their V12 but also superior in reliability.
Today Ferrari road and race cars deliver incredible reliability and are at the top of their game performance wise.
After berated the engineers who suggested that in a open meeting he challenged them to give him reliability and performance.
At the time Renault was the engine to beat in F1 and he was not please that a French V10 motor was not only more powerful than their V12 but also superior in reliability.
Today Ferrari road and race cars deliver incredible reliability and are at the top of their game performance wise.
Remember back in June when he said this about his Ferrari engines?
"Five problems with the Ferrari engine in eight races is unacceptable," Sauber told Swiss newspaper Blick. "At this rate we will need more than eight engines per driver for the season. We need better reliability."
11-02-2010, 04:10 PM
#86
AZ Community Team
Tell that to Peter Sauber
Remember back in June when he said this about his Ferrari engines?
http://en.espnf1.com/sauber/motorsport/story/20547.html
Remember back in June when he said this about his Ferrari engines?
http://en.espnf1.com/sauber/motorsport/story/20547.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Grand_Prix_results
11-02-2010, 04:23 PM
#87
The sizzle in the Steak
^ reliability is in the eye of the beholder.
11-02-2010, 04:54 PM
#88
AZ Community Team
11-02-2010, 04:57 PM
#89
My first Avatar....
11-02-2010, 05:51 PM
#90
The sizzle in the Steak
11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
#91
11-02-2010, 06:33 PM
#92
Suzuka Master
My roommate from last year is studying abroad in honk kong right now and he was telling me that over there, VW's BMW's are perceived to be pretty reliable over there. His cousin that lives there didnt believe that they are pretty unreliable here.
For me, I can substitute driving pleasure for less reliability. I know in the past honda made fantastic drivers cars, but face it today the japanese are more focused on how many cup holders you get in the car.
For me, I can substitute driving pleasure for less reliability. I know in the past honda made fantastic drivers cars, but face it today the japanese are more focused on how many cup holders you get in the car.
11-02-2010, 06:40 PM
#93
My first Avatar....
Nowadays most Toyotas and Hondas are simply appliances. No character, no personality....just a box, albeit reliable, to get you here and there.
I know I'm making broad statements, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
11-02-2010, 07:01 PM
#94
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
I think "pretty unreliable" is not the way to describe der Detusch Auto. It's all relative. When I think of pretty unreliable, I think of an old lawn mower that never starts. To the general public, German cars are just as reliable as Japanese cars.
11-02-2010, 07:18 PM
#95
Suzuka Master
11-02-2010, 09:22 PM
#96
No they are not...Audi still suffers from bad reputation and the BMW acronym "Bring My Wallet" is well alive....just in my circle of friends and acquaintances there are a lot of people that refrain to buy German cars because of their (perceived or real) less long term reliability
The legendary Mercedes reliability is gone a little bit down the tube also....I think Germans have not mastered the transition to heavy electronic equipment for cars as well as the Japanese...
The legendary Mercedes reliability is gone a little bit down the tube also....I think Germans have not mastered the transition to heavy electronic equipment for cars as well as the Japanese...
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 09:31 PM.
11-02-2010, 09:29 PM
#97
Ok. Fair enough. On the average I'm not going to argue that the Japanese brands aren't more reliable that the Germans. But, from my own experience, I've also never driven a Japanese car that has given the driving experience of the one BMW that I owned. I'm not talking about a super car...it was just a 5MT 325i. I loved driving it. All of my other cars have been Japanese and none have given the driving experience of that one simple Bimmer.
Nowadays most Toyotas and Hondas are simply appliances. No character, no personality....just a box, albeit reliable, to get you here and there.
I know I'm making broad statements, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
Nowadays most Toyotas and Hondas are simply appliances. No character, no personality....just a box, albeit reliable, to get you here and there.
I know I'm making broad statements, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
I find an Infiniti G37 as emotional and nice to drive as any 3 series Bimmer....by the way the "superior" driving pleasure of the 3 Series is highly overrated in my opinion....you can definitely feel that the Bimmer still run on a McPherson front setup (regardless what fancy name BMW has concocted) while major competitors have a double wishbone front suspension (including the cheap Accord)
By the way the heavier and less powerful Acura TL SH-AWD beat a 335i on a track....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 09:31 PM.
11-02-2010, 09:38 PM
#98
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
sorry pretty unreliable was a little to harsh. I meant to say its not as reliable as the japanese cars here, while over there it is perceived just about as reliable. And to the general public german cars are not reliable. Whenever I tell people I want to get a GTI, the response I get is, stay away from vw, its not reliable. Of course I will not listen to them
No they are not...Audi still suffers from bad reputation and the BMW acronym "Bring My Wallet" is well alive....just in my circle of friends and acquaintances there are a lot of people that refrain to buy German cars because of their (perceived or real) less long term reliability
The legendary Mercedes reliability is gone a little bit down the tube also....I think Germans have not mastered the transition to heavy electronic equipment for cars as well as the Japanese...
The legendary Mercedes reliability is gone a little bit down the tube also....I think Germans have not mastered the transition to heavy electronic equipment for cars as well as the Japanese...
11-02-2010, 09:49 PM
#99
Suzuka Master
If you are talking about Honda and Toyota being appliances you have a point (however the Accord has a strong prsonality and fares rather well as FWD sport sedan as the Nissan Altima), I do not agree when we are talking about Acuras, Lexuses and Infinitis...
I find an Infiniti G37 as emotional and nice to drive as any 3 series Bimmer....by the way the "superior" driving pleasure of the 3 Series is highly overrated in my opinion....you can definitely feel that the Bimmer still run on a McPherson front setup (regardless what fancy name BMW has concocted) while major competitors have a double wishbone front suspension (including the cheap Accord)
By the way the heavier and less powerful Acura TL SH-AWD beat a 335i on a track....
I find an Infiniti G37 as emotional and nice to drive as any 3 series Bimmer....by the way the "superior" driving pleasure of the 3 Series is highly overrated in my opinion....you can definitely feel that the Bimmer still run on a McPherson front setup (regardless what fancy name BMW has concocted) while major competitors have a double wishbone front suspension (including the cheap Accord)
By the way the heavier and less powerful Acura TL SH-AWD beat a 335i on a track....
11-02-2010, 09:55 PM
#100
My roommate from last year is studying abroad in honk kong right now and he was telling me that over there, VW's BMW's are perceived to be pretty reliable over there. His cousin that lives there didnt believe that they are pretty unreliable here.
For me, I can substitute driving pleasure for less reliability. I know in the past honda made fantastic drivers cars, but face it today the japanese are more focused on how many cup holders you get in the car.
For me, I can substitute driving pleasure for less reliability. I know in the past honda made fantastic drivers cars, but face it today the japanese are more focused on how many cup holders you get in the car.
11-02-2010, 09:58 PM
#101
AZ Community Team
^ Well, with Porsche being the exception, and to be serious again for a sec, I'd say the guy is more or less correct.
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
Porsche is definitely the one exception to the rest of the German auto makers. Over a decade ago they hired the former senior VP of operations of Toyota as a consultant who spent months going through all aspects of their design/development/production. He presented his findings to the board, along with a plan to solve their quality woes. Porsche rewrote from a clean sheet their quality management plan (including supply chain management). They didn't just copy Toyota Production System (TPS), they worked on a plan that met Porsche's needs.
11-02-2010, 10:05 PM
#103
AZ Community Team
I stopped drinking the German Kool-Aid 25 years ago ....
I agree with some of your observations (but not all). To me there's a quality management culture problem with some German car companies.
As to the original question, I still think there's a gap but it has closed due to improvement in the German and some problems with the Japanese.
I've watched alot of friends, colleagues, and neighbors go through the German car ownership experience. My brother has had 5 BMW's until he bought a Cayenne Turbo.
I agree with some of your observations (but not all). To me there's a quality management culture problem with some German car companies.
As to the original question, I still think there's a gap but it has closed due to improvement in the German and some problems with the Japanese.
I've watched alot of friends, colleagues, and neighbors go through the German car ownership experience. My brother has had 5 BMW's until he bought a Cayenne Turbo.
Back to the original question "Is there still a wide margin in terms of long term reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?"
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
11-02-2010, 10:10 PM
#104
11-02-2010, 10:14 PM
#105
Lexus doe not compete with BMW but with Mercedes..that is the comparison that needs to be done....
Lexus goes after Mercedes (comfort and luxury focus)
Infiniti goes after BMW (focus on driving pleasure)
Acura goes after Audi (focus on technology innovation) except the fact that Acura does not yet compete in the top end part of the spectrum
11-03-2010, 12:43 AM
#106
Suzuka Master
Lexus doe not compete with BMW but with Mercedes..that is the comparison that needs to be done....
Lexus goes after Mercedes (comfort and luxury focus)
Infiniti goes after BMW (focus on driving pleasure)
Acura goes after Audi (focus on technology innovation) except the fact that Acura does not yet compete in the top end part of the spectrum
Lexus goes after Mercedes (comfort and luxury focus)
Infiniti goes after BMW (focus on driving pleasure)
Acura goes after Audi (focus on technology innovation) except the fact that Acura does not yet compete in the top end part of the spectrum
And I would say that mercedes goes for the driving pleasure but offering as much comfort as possible.
11-03-2010, 06:48 AM
#107
My first Avatar....
If you are talking about Honda and Toyota being appliances you have a point (however the Accord has a strong prsonality and fares rather well as FWD sport sedan as the Nissan Altima), I do not agree when we are talking about Acuras, Lexuses and Infinitis...
I find an Infiniti G37 as emotional and nice to drive as any 3 series Bimmer....by the way the "superior" driving pleasure of the 3 Series is highly overrated in my opinion....you can definitely feel that the Bimmer still run on a McPherson front setup (regardless what fancy name BMW has concocted) while major competitors have a double wishbone front suspension (including the cheap Accord)
By the way the heavier and less powerful Acura TL SH-AWD beat a 335i on a track....
I find an Infiniti G37 as emotional and nice to drive as any 3 series Bimmer....by the way the "superior" driving pleasure of the 3 Series is highly overrated in my opinion....you can definitely feel that the Bimmer still run on a McPherson front setup (regardless what fancy name BMW has concocted) while major competitors have a double wishbone front suspension (including the cheap Accord)
By the way the heavier and less powerful Acura TL SH-AWD beat a 335i on a track....
I agree about Infiniti. They seem to be trying to build cars that are worth driving...The G Coupe in particular.
Acura?...Well, they don't have one product that i would currently own. I don't care if the SH TL beats the 335 on the track...it's so ugly I couldn't force myself to get in it everyday.
The suspension set on BMW up is totally irrelavant as far as thecnology is concerned. The question is...Does it work? The automotive world says yes. My seat of the pants meter says yes. That's all I really need. MacPherson ? Double wishbone? Who cares? BMW has found a way of setting it up that is a proven success.
Again...reliability goes to the Japanese...I won't consider buying a 335 because of the known HPFP issue. And yes - they are way overpriced imho. It makes me sad, because I'd really like to drive BMW again.
As far as the "superior 3 series driving experience" goes. All I can tell you is what I said before. No Japanese car that I've owned, and I've owned many, has come close to the way the Bimmer felt on the road.
11-03-2010, 07:47 AM
#108
AZ Community Team
11-03-2010, 10:18 AM
#109
One thing I have noticed... as people get older and incomes increase, perfect or very high levels of reliability becomes less of a factor in the car purchasing decision. Of course that's not an absolute as some people still want a Honda b/c they can drive it forever (assuming it's a post-tranny problem model)... but on the whole a German car is more then reliable enough for those people.
8-10 years ago I'd only buy Japanese. Now we're on our second Audi and about to replace it with a Mercedes (or potentially even a 3rd Audi). I still would not own a German car out of warranty, but have no problem buying one and putting 100k miles on it. The same is true for a lot of our friends and neighbors as well. Japanese cars have gone bye-bye some time ago, replaced with German and some American cars (like the Camaro, Vette, etc).
I think there is clear evidence of that on this forum as well. Poll the OGs and you'll see that most have dumped Acura altogether in favor of German, or even some American cars. A few stayed Japanese, but went with Lexus or Infiniti over Honda/Acura. So while the graphs may show one thing, what they don't show is how much people actually care about them...
8-10 years ago I'd only buy Japanese. Now we're on our second Audi and about to replace it with a Mercedes (or potentially even a 3rd Audi). I still would not own a German car out of warranty, but have no problem buying one and putting 100k miles on it. The same is true for a lot of our friends and neighbors as well. Japanese cars have gone bye-bye some time ago, replaced with German and some American cars (like the Camaro, Vette, etc).
I think there is clear evidence of that on this forum as well. Poll the OGs and you'll see that most have dumped Acura altogether in favor of German, or even some American cars. A few stayed Japanese, but went with Lexus or Infiniti over Honda/Acura. So while the graphs may show one thing, what they don't show is how much people actually care about them...
11-03-2010, 10:29 AM
#110
Senior Moderator
One thing I have noticed... as people get older and incomes increase, perfect or very high levels of reliability becomes less of a factor in the car purchasing decision. Of course that's not an absolute as some people still want a Honda b/c they can drive it forever (assuming it's a post-tranny problem model)... but on the whole a German car is more then reliable enough for those people.
8-10 years ago I'd only buy Japanese. Now we're on our second Audi and about to replace it with a Mercedes (or potentially even a 3rd Audi). I still would not own a German car out of warranty, but have no problem buying one and putting 100k miles on it. The same is true for a lot of our friends and neighbors as well. Japanese cars have gone bye-bye some time ago, replaced with German and some American cars (like the Camaro, Vette, etc).
I think there is clear evidence of that on this forum as well. Poll the OGs and you'll see that most have dumped Acura altogether in favor of German, or even some American cars. A few stayed Japanese, but went with Lexus or Infiniti over Honda/Acura. So while the graphs may show one thing, what they don't show is how much people actually care about them...
8-10 years ago I'd only buy Japanese. Now we're on our second Audi and about to replace it with a Mercedes (or potentially even a 3rd Audi). I still would not own a German car out of warranty, but have no problem buying one and putting 100k miles on it. The same is true for a lot of our friends and neighbors as well. Japanese cars have gone bye-bye some time ago, replaced with German and some American cars (like the Camaro, Vette, etc).
I think there is clear evidence of that on this forum as well. Poll the OGs and you'll see that most have dumped Acura altogether in favor of German, or even some American cars. A few stayed Japanese, but went with Lexus or Infiniti over Honda/Acura. So while the graphs may show one thing, what they don't show is how much people actually care about them...
The line I always get is: "I'm too old to be dealing with the crap that comes with an unreliable car...besides, this XYZ does what I need it to."
11-03-2010, 10:55 AM
#111
Not entirely sure if I agree with you there, Herr Mega...Most of the older crowd I know (and not just Asians; Caucasians as well) tend to deviate to the Japanese manufacturers as they get older and wealthier.
The line I always get is: "I'm too old to be dealing with the crap that comes with an unreliable car...besides, this XYZ does what I need it to."
The line I always get is: "I'm too old to be dealing with the crap that comes with an unreliable car...besides, this XYZ does what I need it to."
. I was trying to tip-toe around demographics. I guess at this point I can just say the more wealthy people tend to not care about the reliability too much. They just want their German luxury. And again, as I said above, it's not an absolute. No where near. I know many a people who are in a Lexus LS b/c they do not want to "deal" with a German car, but they are few and far between. I just think the stigma on German cars becomes much less of a factor as age and income increase. And if income is increasing much quicker then age... even less so.
Also, this is just from my observation which has helped to shape my opinion. Well that and owning German the last 5+ years and having a better experience with Audi then Acura
. But the fact remains that things have improved greatly in the last 5-6 years for the German (and even some US) auto manufacturers... which is good, b/c it keeps the automotive landscape interesting and competitive.It's an age old debate which will likely never die (hence the guy beating the horse on the prior page), but the times are a changing...
11-03-2010, 10:56 AM
#112
AZ Community Team
Not entirely sure if I agree with you there, Herr Mega...Most of the older crowd I know (and not just Asians; Caucasians as well) tend to deviate to the Japanese manufacturers as they get older and wealthier.
The line I always get is: "I'm too old to be dealing with the crap that comes with an unreliable car...besides, this XYZ does what I need it to."
The line I always get is: "I'm too old to be dealing with the crap that comes with an unreliable car...besides, this XYZ does what I need it to."
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-03-2010 at 11:02 AM.
11-03-2010, 11:28 AM
#113
My first Avatar....
I agree with that, one thing that I notice is many folks just hate the thought of going into the dealer to get service/repair performed. It's time out of their schedule and takes away from their life whether it be work or play. Just because it's under warrenty, driving in sitting around waiting for repairs or taking shuttle bus. The whole loaner vehicle program has changed that somewhat. The age thing is definitely true, I think most older people don't put up with all the hassle of a unreliable car.
I agree older people just don't want to waste their time going to and from a dealer.
11-03-2010, 12:30 PM
#114
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I agree with that, one thing that I notice is many folks just hate the thought of going into the dealer to get service/repair performed. It's time out of their schedule and takes away from their life whether it be work or play. Just because it's under warrenty, driving in sitting around waiting for repairs or taking shuttle bus. The whole loaner vehicle program has changed that somewhat. The age thing is definitely true, I think most older people don't put up with all the hassle of a unreliable car.
11-03-2010, 01:20 PM
#115
My first Avatar....
11-03-2010, 03:23 PM
#116
I tend to agree that long term reliability is less of a factor as the income level rise and the car turnover time get shorter.....however wealthy people do get pissed if their car is unreliable (just ask some MB owners few years ago).....just a hint about the point I'm making...German brands vastly outlease (few years and it's not longer my problem) any other manufacturers....
Juniorbean, personally I followed the opposite path you described....I owned Audis and BMW (and my dad owned MB) in the past and I switched to Japanese as I got older (and yes my income did increase), wiser and I learned to look "under the hood"...
Juniorbean, personally I followed the opposite path you described....I owned Audis and BMW (and my dad owned MB) in the past and I switched to Japanese as I got older (and yes my income did increase), wiser and I learned to look "under the hood"...
11-03-2010, 03:37 PM
#117
I stopped drinking the German Kool-Aid 25 years ago ....
I agree with some of your observations (but not all). To me there's a quality management culture problem with some German car companies.
As to the original question, I still think there's a gap but it has closed due to improvement in the German and some problems with the Japanese.
I've watched alot of friends, colleagues, and neighbors go through the German car ownership experience. My brother has had 5 BMW's until he bought a Cayenne Turbo.
I agree with some of your observations (but not all). To me there's a quality management culture problem with some German car companies.
As to the original question, I still think there's a gap but it has closed due to improvement in the German and some problems with the Japanese.
I've watched alot of friends, colleagues, and neighbors go through the German car ownership experience. My brother has had 5 BMW's until he bought a Cayenne Turbo.
I tend to agree that long term reliability is less of a factor as the income level rise and the car turnover time get shorter.....however wealthy people do get pissed if their car is unreliable (just ask some MB owners few years ago).....just a hint about the point I'm making...German brands vastly outlease (few years and it's not longer my problem) any other manufacturers....
Juniorbean, personally I followed the opposite path you described....I owned Audis and BMW (and my dad owned MB) in the past and I switched to Japanese as I got older (and yes my income did increase), wiser and I learned to look "under the hood"...
Juniorbean, personally I followed the opposite path you described....I owned Audis and BMW (and my dad owned MB) in the past and I switched to Japanese as I got older (and yes my income did increase), wiser and I learned to look "under the hood"...
11-03-2010, 05:49 PM
#118
The suspension set on BMW up is totally irrelavant as far as thecnology is concerned. The question is...Does it work? The automotive world says yes. My seat of the pants meter says yes. That's all I really need. MacPherson ? Double wishbone? Who cares? BMW has found a way of setting it up that is a proven success.
11-03-2010, 06:52 PM
#119
I think that YOUNGER people are more apt to deal with un-reliability in a car. Look at the BMW 335. I'd guess that more than 60% who drive that car are guys between 25 and 45. They buy it knowing that there is a good possibility that the car will fail.
I agree older people just don't want to waste their time going to and from a dealer.
I agree older people just don't want to waste their time going to and from a dealer.
I was just about to mention this. Can't remember who but a member had a 335i for a while and he got the HPFP issue I think but despite the car being in and out of the shop he doesn't mind because he likes it a lot.
Overall though its hard to generalize. I guess it really depends on how loose people are with their money. I know people who are very wealthy but live in a modest house and drive modest cars. Others who have big houses and modest cars, and others with big houses and luxury cars only. But I'd still agree that younger people are more apt to take a risk.... myself for instance, if I really want a car, even though it may not be the best choice, I'd still try and work for it. My car was a perfect example... I figured, if stuff broke on it, I'd replace it with better aftermarket parts
worked out pretty well for me so far.
11-03-2010, 07:09 PM
#120
I feel the need...
