Is there still a wide margin in terms of reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?
05-14-2008, 08:16 PM
#41
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by bob j
Audis are made by VW...need i say more? There junk.
05-14-2008, 08:17 PM
#42
E92
We had a 92 325i for 14 years and the drivetrain had zero problems whatsoever. The only things that I ever remember going wrong with it were some broken clips on the passenger door interior panel that would cause it to be loose, some condensation in the right rear tail light, and one of the speakers blew right before we sold it. That was at ~170k miles. There wasn't even a hiccup as far as the engine was concerned.
10-27-2010, 07:14 PM
#43
I feel the need...
Luxury and dependability a rare combination in European cars, Consumer Reports finds
Vehicles from manufacturers such as Audi, BMW and Mercedes rank low in the magazine's latest reliability ratings, while Ford and GM make advances.
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...,3534372.story
If you are in the market for an expensive, dependable German luxury car, think again, Consumer Reports warns in its annual ranking of auto reliability Tuesday.
"The larger [European] manufacturers, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz, are among the worst automakers overall," Consumer Reports said.
It turns out that expense and luxury don't always equate to reliability, said Jake Fisher, senior automotive engineer with Consumer Reports. Often, there is an inverse relationship.
Big luxury cars come with "a lot of power equipment, electronic gizmos and complexity," Fisher said, "and that means more chances for something to go wrong."
In particular, Audi and BMW have introduced new high-performance engines that combine power and fuel efficiency, but the technology has been daunting, he noted.....
"The larger [European] manufacturers, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz, are among the worst automakers overall," Consumer Reports said.
It turns out that expense and luxury don't always equate to reliability, said Jake Fisher, senior automotive engineer with Consumer Reports. Often, there is an inverse relationship.
Big luxury cars come with "a lot of power equipment, electronic gizmos and complexity," Fisher said, "and that means more chances for something to go wrong."
In particular, Audi and BMW have introduced new high-performance engines that combine power and fuel efficiency, but the technology has been daunting, he noted.....
10-27-2010, 07:51 PM
#49
So whoever it was that said German cars were built to break was right after all!
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
10-27-2010, 08:11 PM
#50
So whoever it was that said German cars were built to break was right after all!
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
but i would say more the reason probably why they see fewer problems with euro cars, is that the manufactures are more liberal with warranty stuff (ie: it comes in for an oil change, and other parts get replaced without the customer ever knowing since they are not paying for said repair, so the issue never gets "reported"), then also euro car people seem to also like the dealer more so then Japanese cars, so again issues never get fully reported
10-30-2010, 07:35 PM
#51
Senior Moderator
So whoever it was that said German cars were built to break was right after all!
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
Experience is only anecdotal but my brother's wife's Mini Cooper S JCW is "a piece of junk". Because of that car, my brother vowed never to buy a BMW for the rest of his life.
Maybe the rate of cars being lemons is greater with Euro makes? Almost everyone in the 3-series thread has little or no problems. And then there's Scrib
Back on this two year old topic, I think the reliability margin for NEW cars is too close to call.
So, I would answer the original question with a reliability comparison of...say....a 2003 Honda/Toyota product versus VW/BMW from the same year.
IMHO, smart money would still say a 2003 Honda Civic EX w/120k has better odds of being more reliable than a 2003 VW Jetta GL w/85k...assuming the respective owners have dutifully maintained their vehicles properly. Again, this is my
and may reflect my personal bias and not actual quantification.
10-30-2010, 07:57 PM
#52
While BMW owns Mini, I personally wouldn't put BMW's own products on the hook for Mini's flaw. But on the flipside, their ownership of the Mini brand makes them somewhat culpable so I do get your bro's logic.
Back on this two year old topic, I think the reliability margin for NEW cars is too close to call.
So, I would answer the original question with a reliability comparison of...say....a 2003 Honda/Toyota product versus VW/BMW from the same year.
IMHO, smart money would still say a 2003 Honda Civic EX w/120k has better odds of being more reliable than a 2003 VW Jetta GL w/85k...assuming the respective owners have dutifully maintained their vehicles properly. Again, this is my and may reflect my personal bias and not actual quantification.
Back on this two year old topic, I think the reliability margin for NEW cars is too close to call.
So, I would answer the original question with a reliability comparison of...say....a 2003 Honda/Toyota product versus VW/BMW from the same year.
IMHO, smart money would still say a 2003 Honda Civic EX w/120k has better odds of being more reliable than a 2003 VW Jetta GL w/85k...assuming the respective owners have dutifully maintained their vehicles properly. Again, this is my
and may reflect my personal bias and not actual quantification.A new one (Jetta, for instance), despite any issues on prior models, is probably on par with a comparable with a same year Civic or Corolla. Toyota's recent issues, accidental acceleration or otherwise has been well publicized. And we all know about the 5AT issues that are still plaguing newer vehicles like the Odysseys, and even the synchronizer issues with 6MT cars, then there's the brakes that warp when you look at them funny. Hell, the bread and butter 8G Civic specifically has some issues with the rear shocks prematurely going out also.
To widely generalize a certain car model's reliability from one generation to the next is silly. To generalize with a make is foolish. To generalize across an entire region (Japanese/German/American) is just plain stupid. Even going from one year to the next can result in relatively significant changes in terms of quality/reliability
10-30-2010, 11:18 PM
#53
Needs more Lemon Pledge
One thing to consider when looking at the above chart is that the chart seems to indicate the NUMBER of issues.
Consider this scenario:
Mercedes has a blinker bulb burn out, a door rattle and the sunroof squeaks. = 3 Problems
Buick has a transmission fail. = 1 Problem
Which would you rather have?
I think that when people purchase luxury hyped cars, they have a greater expectation and will complain about many smaller things that the buyer of a KIA or a Buick may overlook.
Consider this scenario:
Mercedes has a blinker bulb burn out, a door rattle and the sunroof squeaks. = 3 Problems
Buick has a transmission fail. = 1 Problem
Which would you rather have?
I think that when people purchase luxury hyped cars, they have a greater expectation and will complain about many smaller things that the buyer of a KIA or a Buick may overlook.
11-01-2010, 09:25 AM
#54
Senior Moderator
^ But...a Buick is not Japanese... 
11-01-2010, 12:30 PM
#55
Senior Moderator
One thing to consider when looking at the above chart is that the chart seems to indicate the NUMBER of issues.
Consider this scenario:
Mercedes has a blinker bulb burn out, a door rattle and the sunroof squeaks. = 3 Problems
Buick has a transmission fail. = 1 Problem
Which would you rather have?
I think that when people purchase luxury hyped cars, they have a greater expectation and will complain about many smaller things that the buyer of a KIA or a Buick may overlook.
Consider this scenario:
Mercedes has a blinker bulb burn out, a door rattle and the sunroof squeaks. = 3 Problems
Buick has a transmission fail. = 1 Problem
Which would you rather have?
I think that when people purchase luxury hyped cars, they have a greater expectation and will complain about many smaller things that the buyer of a KIA or a Buick may overlook.
11-01-2010, 12:31 PM
#56
Senior Moderator
11-01-2010, 01:36 PM
#57
Needs more Lemon Pledge
11-01-2010, 02:31 PM
#58
Back to the original question "Is there still a wide margin in terms of long term reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?"
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
11-01-2010, 04:34 PM
#59
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Buicks are now German (the Sigma platform, I think, is Opel)....
So the Germans make a great car.
And my Subaru has had only one issue (A/C condenser) and it was replaced under warranty.
So the Germans make a great car.
And my Subaru has had only one issue (A/C condenser) and it was replaced under warranty.
11-02-2010, 11:20 AM
#60
My first Avatar....
Interesting write up. Very thought provoking. Where did it come from?
11-02-2010, 12:01 PM
#61
Senior Moderator
Back to the original question "Is there still a wide margin in terms of long term reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?"
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
That being said, the Japanese have taken a few black eyes lately...Does that mean they are turning out crappy cars now...? Hmm.
I got your back. Good post.
11-02-2010, 12:07 PM
#62
The sizzle in the Steak
Back to the original question "Is there still a wide margin in terms of long term reliability between BMW and Japanese cars?"
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
Yes there is and is not trivial....however the German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)
There are very specific reasons why cars from Deutschland cannot compete on value with vehicles from Japan.
- Japanese superior logistic management (smaller German global footprint, higher labor cost, etc...)
- Japanese top manufacturers are one generation ahead in quality control (Toyota TQM anyone??)
- Higher advertisement and "media involvement" costs and R&D costs for the "my penis is longer than yours" German top models (Bugatti is an egregious example)....guess who pays for the development cost of these?? Yes you guessed right, your everyday A4 or 3 series driver with their fake leather, less focus on quality control/long term reliability and overall higher dollar-per-feature vehicles...yes the Germans are very astute in sprinkling here and there a wood or an alluminum trim to cover these disadvantages.
Why do you think Japanese are not making V-12 engines and hyper sport cars?? Because they are not able to?? Obviously not, it's because in their philosophy the potential commercial benefits are far outweighed by the development costs that need to be "spread" in regular production cars, making them less competitive.
When the Japanese build halo vehicles they do at way less cost than a German (or an Italian for that matter) equivalent.....Honda NSX, Mitsubishi 3000 GT, Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LFA.
The Nissan GT-R was a hugely humiliating slap in the face of the Germans...anything coming from them with similar performance would cost no less than $200K....
I did stop drinking the German Kool-Aid 15 years ago and I did never look back....
That evil Veyron!!!! Good thing Honda got rid of the NSX...otherwise Civic buyers were gonna pay dearly for it
11-02-2010, 12:12 PM
#63
Senior Moderator
Zonda, Waldorf. Zonda.
11-02-2010, 12:16 PM
#64
The sizzle in the Steak
11-02-2010, 12:17 PM
#65
Senior Moderator
11-02-2010, 12:23 PM
#66
The sizzle in the Steak
They can't it's German....they have to pay for the Italian supercars.
Those evil supercars that kill reliability and value for the rest of the car makers.
Somebody has to pay for the supercars...those suckers who buy BMW, MB, VW, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Skoda, Audi.
...and those poor VW brand buyers who are paying for the italian supercars by Lamborghini.....they've been duped!!!!!
Those evil supercars that kill reliability and value for the rest of the car makers.
Somebody has to pay for the supercars...those suckers who buy BMW, MB, VW, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Skoda, Audi.
...and those poor VW brand buyers who are paying for the italian supercars by Lamborghini.....they've been duped!!!!!
11-02-2010, 12:29 PM
#67
Senior Moderator
^ Well, with Porsche being the exception, and to be serious again for a sec, I'd say the guy is more or less correct.
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
11-02-2010, 01:19 PM
#68
The sizzle in the Steak
^ Well, with Porsche being the exception, and to be serious again for a sec, I'd say the guy is more or less correct.
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
I generally do agree that "German manufacturers are not terribly concerned with it because their typical target customer do not care about it (higher income, more focused on "trendy" rather than practical, durable or "under the hood technologically advanced", 3 years typical vehicle turnover, etc...)"...
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Bottom line: If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....hence why supercars are not reliable.....but they are the best, most fantastic machines on the planet to drive.
If you want the best driving experience, you should not concern yourself with reliability.
11-02-2010, 01:40 PM
#69
IMHO his talk about how German car buyers are paying for the supercars is nonsense.
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Bottom line: If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....hence why supercars are not reliable.....but they are the best, most fantastic machines on the planet to drive.
If you want the best driving experience, you should not concern yourself with reliability.
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Bottom line: If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....hence why supercars are not reliable.....but they are the best, most fantastic machines on the planet to drive.
If you want the best driving experience, you should not concern yourself with reliability.
I do not remember where I read the ridiculous amount of money VW was losing on every Veyron sold (only Piech stronghold on the VW board has kept the project going)....
Ask yourself why no supercar maker (except artisan body makers using someone else engines and components) has never survived in the long run as standalone entity.....Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Aston, etc... they all need "larger" shoulders....
Ignorance is a bliss.....
If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....
That being said, the Japanese have taken a few black eyes lately...
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Porsche has been very profitable because they ventured very successfully into almost mass market products (Boxster, Cayenne, Cayman) and their huge technical consulting business...
Another reason the German maufacturers cannot compete on value with the Japanese is the latter higher avergage corporate productivity, something anyone spending few minutes a week reading financial news know.....of course you do not find this information on Hot Wheels or Car & Driver....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 01:51 PM.
11-02-2010, 01:43 PM
#70
Senior Moderator
IMHO his talk about how German car buyers are paying for the supercars is nonsense.
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Bottom line: If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....hence why supercars are not reliable.....but they are the best, most fantastic machines on the planet to drive.
If you want the best driving experience, you should not concern yourself with reliability.
As if now Toyota buyers are paying for the LF-A.
Bottom line: If you push the edge of technology and performance, you sacrifice a bit of reliability....hence why supercars are not reliable.....but they are the best, most fantastic machines on the planet to drive.
If you want the best driving experience, you should not concern yourself with reliability.
I thought I had a riot in an NSX that I test drove for nearly an hour a couple years back...and certainly, I cannot compare it to say a Zonda or F430...still, it was the single best driving experience I ever had to this date. And well, as far as I know, the NSX is darn easy to maintain and it is also reliable.
11-02-2010, 01:54 PM
#71
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ The NSX is not cutting edge 
11-02-2010, 01:57 PM
#73
Senior Moderator
If you need a car to be crammed with all the latest gadgets to be to quote you, "the best driving experience"...Well, I completely disagree with you, sir.
Most cars, if you truly want to enjoy them, are driven with ALL the aids off to truly get the absolute feel of the vehicle. So, how is that cutting edge if you're disengaging the tech...?
Most cars, if you truly want to enjoy them, are driven with ALL the aids off to truly get the absolute feel of the vehicle. So, how is that cutting edge if you're disengaging the tech...?
11-02-2010, 01:58 PM
#74
When it was introduced in 1990 it was...it did beat the crap out the Ferrari 348 on a track...and it still remembered by many as one of the best sport car ever built...
A treat for you, Ayrton Senna driving a NSX at the Suzuka racetrack....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU
A treat for you, Ayrton Senna driving a NSX at the Suzuka racetrack....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 02:03 PM.
11-02-2010, 02:02 PM
#75
The sizzle in the Steak
If you need a car to be crammed with all the latest gadgets to be to quote you, "the best driving experience"...Well, I completely disagree with you, sir.
Most cars, if you truly want to enjoy them, are driven with ALL the aids off to truly get the absolute feel of the vehicle. So, how is that cutting edge if you're disengaging the tech...?
Most cars, if you truly want to enjoy them, are driven with ALL the aids off to truly get the absolute feel of the vehicle. So, how is that cutting edge if you're disengaging the tech...?
The more you push the edge of tech/speed/handling the reliability gets sacrificed.
I'd argue that an Italia or 599 GTB is a fantastic driving experience even with "the help" turned on in any position on the wheel.
11-02-2010, 02:06 PM
#76
Few years ago in our rainy Seattle one 3 series driver tried to keep my pace (I was still driving my old Maxima SE 6 speed) on a winding road full of nasty twists, couple of fishtail later he gave up.....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 02:15 PM.
11-02-2010, 02:11 PM
#77
Senior Moderator
I'd also expect it to clean my socks.
To your point, again, you were stating that a great driving experience could not be had without pushing technology. Well, I already gave you an example of a car that one could argue did not. Heck, the Ariel Atom...what the hey is in that car? Or Lotus Elise...? They are pretty bare if you ask me and are not crammed with as you call it, "cutting edge" stuff...
11-02-2010, 02:11 PM
#78
Look at the extremely positive long term test for the Nissan GT-R on Motortrend...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ict/index.html
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-02-2010 at 02:14 PM.
11-02-2010, 02:13 PM
#79
Senior Moderator
^ He's going to call it the ugliest thing ever. But, that's off-topic and not really about reliability.
11-02-2010, 02:28 PM
#80
AZ Community Team
After berated the engineers who suggested that in a open meeting he challenged them to give him reliability and performance.
At the time Renault was the engine to beat in F1 and he was not please that a French V10 motor was not only more powerful than their V12 but also superior in reliability.
Today Ferrari road and race cars deliver incredible reliability and are at the top of their game performance wise.