So this is why hybrids were made.
06-24-2004, 09:52 PM
#1
Teh ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Age: 46
Posts: 12,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So this is why hybrids were made.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5277991/
Yea, I think car companies have figured out a way to increase profits for dealerships... think about it. These cars are hella hard to work on, so you don't want to risk it, so you take it to the dealers.
Junkster, who believes that money makes everything go around
Yea, I think car companies have figured out a way to increase profits for dealerships... think about it. These cars are hella hard to work on, so you don't want to risk it, so you take it to the dealers.
Junkster, who believes that money makes everything go around
06-24-2004, 10:54 PM
#2
Eat my shorts!!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston
Age: 44
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yup yup...People will buy the extended warranty( assuming that it cost around $1000-$1500 for 10 years/100,000 miles) on those hybirds. so the car could last them 13 years (standard warranty included) without a penny out of the pocket.
06-24-2004, 11:24 PM
#3
such a dirty birdy
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by speedzer
yup yup...People will buy the extended warranty( assuming that it cost around $1000-$1500 for 10 years/100,000 miles) on those hybirds. so the car could last them 13 years (standard warranty included) without a penny out of the pocket.
06-24-2004, 11:41 PM
#4
i was thinking about getting a suv hybrid eventually but this is a good point...spend more on gas for a reg suv or spend more on maintenance later on...i guess the extended warranty would be the best bet
06-25-2004, 01:43 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by majormojo
Coincidentally, that's about how long it takes for the savings in fuel cost to compensate for the inflated purchase price.
06-25-2004, 03:47 AM
#7
Inspired
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSX diesel please 
Hybrids are nice but as pointed out earlier, the savings really isn't there until much later. Until they are of a similar price as regular cars, I'll be begging for a diesel from Honda.
Hybrids are nice but as pointed out earlier, the savings really isn't there until much later. Until they are of a similar price as regular cars, I'll be begging for a diesel from Honda.
Trending Topics
06-25-2004, 07:55 AM
#8
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Raleigh, NC
Age: 51
Posts: 4,858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hybrid volume will be there, hybrids will ROI ... let's reference this thread in 2 years.
Did I mention lately that if you are in the US you get a $2000 tax credit (not deduction) when you buy a hybrid? So go ahead and take $2K off the price right off the bat!
provench, whose next car will be a performance hybrid
Did I mention lately that if you are in the US you get a $2000 tax credit (not deduction) when you buy a hybrid? So go ahead and take $2K off the price right off the bat!
provench, whose next car will be a performance hybrid
06-25-2004, 08:24 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by majormojo
Coincidentally, that's about how long it takes for the savings in fuel cost to compensate for the inflated purchase price.
i own a hybrid and i can tell you that you are wrong. the "inflated" price? I payed well below sticker and to be fair the civic hybrid is pretty much on par with the honda civic ex (with alloys) as far as features.
Anyway let's say that you are paying extra... how about $1000 (it's probably even less then this). For that you get (well I did) a 2K tax credit. I have abot 35K miles on it and I get 50mpg on average. So that's 20 or so mpg more then I could get with any other car.
So
35K miles / 30 mpg = 1167 gallons (US) of gas.
1167 gallons x $2.00 = $2334 worth of gas.
35K miles / 50 mpg = 700 gallons (US) of gas.
700 gallons x $2.00 = $1400 worth of gas.
$2334
-$1400
--------
$934
So with that and the tax credit the car is now paying for itself to a degree.
06-25-2004, 08:41 AM
#10
Obnoxious Philadelphian
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: South Jersey
Age: 47
Posts: 5,549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by provench
Did I mention lately that if you are in the US you get a $2000 tax credit (not deduction) when you buy a hybrid? So go ahead and take $2K off the price right off the bat!
06-25-2004, 09:44 AM
#11
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 43
Posts: 5,449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DEVO
.....So
35K miles / 30 mpg = 1167 gallons (US) of gas.
1167 gallons x $2.00 = $2334 worth of gas.
35K miles / 50 mpg = 700 gallons (US) of gas.
700 gallons x $2.00 = $1400 worth of gas.
$2334
-$1400
--------
$934
So with that and the tax credit the car is now paying for itself to a degree.
35K miles / 30 mpg = 1167 gallons (US) of gas.
1167 gallons x $2.00 = $2334 worth of gas.
35K miles / 50 mpg = 700 gallons (US) of gas.
700 gallons x $2.00 = $1400 worth of gas.
$2334
-$1400
--------
$934
So with that and the tax credit the car is now paying for itself to a degree.
I'd love to have a Civic Hybrid as a second car. I wish it came in a wagon, though...
06-25-2004, 09:49 AM
#12
such a dirty birdy
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DEVO
i own a hybrid and i can tell you that you are wrong. the "inflated" price? I payed well below sticker and to be fair the civic hybrid is pretty much on par with the honda civic ex (with alloys) as far as features.
gilbo, the Prius does list at just under CAD$30K, but a friend of mine was just quoted $35K and a wait of several months. I think the dealers are scalping a little.
06-25-2004, 09:58 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by majormojo
It was only a joke, but anyway... I thought the Civic Hybrid was was about + USD$2500 vs the regular Civic. If you can get a better deal, then good on ya.
gilbo, the Prius does list at just under CAD$30K, but a friend of mine was just quoted $35K and a wait of several months. I think the dealers are scalping a little.
gilbo, the Prius does list at just under CAD$30K, but a friend of mine was just quoted $35K and a wait of several months. I think the dealers are scalping a little.
06-25-2004, 11:26 AM
#15
Advanced
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i was very interested in the prius, the quote was msrp of 26 - 27k, $500 deposit and wait 4 to 6 months min, you must take whatever color comes in. forget the base model, don't think it even exist in nj. i even hear that many dealers add special packages on top to the msrp and also the mpg is really closer to 40, not the epa of 60. glad i got the tsx.
BTW, i figured if gas is $2/gal, with the overprice prius, need about 150k miles before the prius is a better value than the tsx. hell, since nj is so crowded, either my car will be totaled or i'll trade the tsx for a newer car.
BTW, i figured if gas is $2/gal, with the overprice prius, need about 150k miles before the prius is a better value than the tsx. hell, since nj is so crowded, either my car will be totaled or i'll trade the tsx for a newer car.
06-25-2004, 12:12 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by kenk25
i was very interested in the prius, the quote was msrp of 26 - 27k, $500 deposit and wait 4 to 6 months min, you must take whatever color comes in. forget the base model, don't think it even exist in nj. i even hear that many dealers add special packages on top to the msrp and also the mpg is really closer to 40, not the epa of 60. glad i got the tsx.
BTW, i figured if gas is $2/gal, with the overprice prius, need about 150k miles before the prius is a better value than the tsx. hell, since nj is so crowded, either my car will be totaled or i'll trade the tsx for a newer car.
BTW, i figured if gas is $2/gal, with the overprice prius, need about 150k miles before the prius is a better value than the tsx. hell, since nj is so crowded, either my car will be totaled or i'll trade the tsx for a newer car.
the prius is most DEFINITELY NOT OVERPRICED, the technology in it is much more expensive than some small displacement 4 cylinder combustion engine on a global mass produced family car platform. If you are going to talk about $$$ and what you get, a TSX compared to a prius, the TSX will come out as the big ripoff.
06-25-2004, 01:33 PM
#17
such a dirty birdy
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gilboman
you were cross shopping a prius and TSX the prius is most DEFINITELY NOT OVERPRICED, the technology in it is much more expensive than some small displacement 4 cylinder combustion engine on a global mass produced family car platform. If you are going to talk about $$$ and what you get, a TSX compared to a prius, the TSX will come out as the big ripoff.
the prius is most DEFINITELY NOT OVERPRICED, the technology in it is much more expensive than some small displacement 4 cylinder combustion engine on a global mass produced family car platform. If you are going to talk about $$$ and what you get, a TSX compared to a prius, the TSX will come out as the big ripoff."But the giant skeleton in every HEV’s closet is COST. Anyone who has any idea what these dualpowertrain components really cost will know that Toyota is stretching credibility to claim that even the simpler Echo-based Gen I Prius was profitable at its $20K price. By contrast, the ’04 is a unique, high-content car on a dedicated platform, and its nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack probably costs a quarter of its (still) $20K base price."
source: http://www.ai-online.com/issues/arti...ail.asp?id=405
06-25-2004, 03:34 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by majormojo
It was only a joke, but anyway... I thought the Civic Hybrid was was about + USD$2500 vs the regular Civic. If you can get a better deal, then good on ya.
gilbo, the Prius does list at just under CAD$30K, but a friend of mine was just quoted $35K and a wait of several months. I think the dealers are scalping a little.
gilbo, the Prius does list at just under CAD$30K, but a friend of mine was just quoted $35K and a wait of several months. I think the dealers are scalping a little.
yeah... didn't mean to come across like "YOU'RE WRONG"
like I said, I would NOT compare Civic Hybrid to Base Civic... I would compare it more toward Civic EX (with alloys). Then the price difference is not bad.
That being said, we didn't just buy the car for it's gas saving (it was part of the reason), but we needed a 4 door car that looked nice and had all the option that we wanted and was great for the environment (my tiny small part of saving the world
).
06-21-2011, 06:39 AM
#19
Race Director
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...fty-compacts/1
Despite months of high gas prices, a bevy of new fuel-stingy cars with conventional gas engines may be eating into sales of pricier gas-electric hybrids.
Sales of high-mileage, high-value conventional compacts such as the Hyundai Elantra (shown above), Ford Focus and Chevrolet Cruze are hot, while hybrid sales have stagnated.
The hybrid share of U.S. auto sales peaked at 3.6% in July, 2009, Edmunds.com says. Last month, it was 1.6%, depressed also by production cuts for some models due to the Japan disaster, but not enough to account for all the drop.
The new conventionally powered cars use various strategies to boost gas mileage to near hybrid levels — without the batteries and electric motors that can add $6,000 on average to a vehicle's cost, according to J.D. Power and Associates.
"Even with the fuel savings, it doesn't make sense to buy a hybrid" for many buyers, says Power Senior Manager Mike Omotoso. "This year, we had $4 gas (in many cities) but we saw the introduction of compacts that get 40 mpg. All of these cars are considerably cheaper than hybrids."
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less:
Ford's Fusion hybrid gets 41 mpg in the city and 36 mpg on the highway; Hyundai's Sonata hybrid gets 35 city and 40 highway.
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
Ford dealer Annette Sycora of Smith South Plains in rural Levelland, Texas, all says hybrids have seen huge demand, but the new crop of high-mpg sedans like Focus now has caught buyers' eyes. "Our customers are thrilled," she says.
A study by consultants AutoPacific sfound interest in buying a hybrid — or even conventional compacts — didn't soar with the increase in gas prices this year the way it did when prices shot up to a peak past $4 in July 2008.
Don't be so quick to count out hybrids, says Toyota division General Manager Bob Carter. With a wagon about to join the sedan in the Prius lineup, more models will mean more sales.
"There are three things you can carve in stone: death, taxes and expansion of the hybrid market," Carter quips. He says hybrids have gone mainstream as more people are attracted by rewards of gas savings and environmentalism.
Sales of high-mileage, high-value conventional compacts such as the Hyundai Elantra (shown above), Ford Focus and Chevrolet Cruze are hot, while hybrid sales have stagnated.
The hybrid share of U.S. auto sales peaked at 3.6% in July, 2009, Edmunds.com says. Last month, it was 1.6%, depressed also by production cuts for some models due to the Japan disaster, but not enough to account for all the drop.
The new conventionally powered cars use various strategies to boost gas mileage to near hybrid levels — without the batteries and electric motors that can add $6,000 on average to a vehicle's cost, according to J.D. Power and Associates.
"Even with the fuel savings, it doesn't make sense to buy a hybrid" for many buyers, says Power Senior Manager Mike Omotoso. "This year, we had $4 gas (in many cities) but we saw the introduction of compacts that get 40 mpg. All of these cars are considerably cheaper than hybrids."
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less:
Ford's Fusion hybrid gets 41 mpg in the city and 36 mpg on the highway; Hyundai's Sonata hybrid gets 35 city and 40 highway.
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
Ford dealer Annette Sycora of Smith South Plains in rural Levelland, Texas, all says hybrids have seen huge demand, but the new crop of high-mpg sedans like Focus now has caught buyers' eyes. "Our customers are thrilled," she says.
A study by consultants AutoPacific sfound interest in buying a hybrid — or even conventional compacts — didn't soar with the increase in gas prices this year the way it did when prices shot up to a peak past $4 in July 2008.
Don't be so quick to count out hybrids, says Toyota division General Manager Bob Carter. With a wagon about to join the sedan in the Prius lineup, more models will mean more sales.
"There are three things you can carve in stone: death, taxes and expansion of the hybrid market," Carter quips. He says hybrids have gone mainstream as more people are attracted by rewards of gas savings and environmentalism.
06-21-2011, 07:29 AM
#22
Senior Moderator
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...fty-compacts/1
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less:
Ford's Fusion hybrid gets 41 mpg in the city and 36 mpg on the highway; Hyundai's Sonata hybrid gets 35 city and 40 highway.
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less:
Ford's Fusion hybrid gets 41 mpg in the city and 36 mpg on the highway; Hyundai's Sonata hybrid gets 35 city and 40 highway.
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
Car and Driver Link
(and it seems the Cruze LT gets only slightly better fuel economy than my gas guzzling MDX
)All fall well short of the mileage on the hybrids in this segment.
06-21-2011, 07:44 AM
#23
Rich and Famous
"Money makes the world go a round" Joel Gray '1968
The article says much of what 2 owners of Christen Brothers Automotive Service say ...
But the article does not say ...
1. Techs must be grounded all times when working on hybrids.
2. Many local fire 911 crews will not use "jaws of life" on them.
3. There are explosive problems when you combine gas with high voltage.
4. The 5 - 10 year cost of ownership is a very steep one that long term owners turn off on.
But money makes the world go a round and they keep the above 4 preety quiet.
The article says much of what 2 owners of Christen Brothers Automotive Service say ...
But the article does not say ...
1. Techs must be grounded all times when working on hybrids.
2. Many local fire 911 crews will not use "jaws of life" on them.
3. There are explosive problems when you combine gas with high voltage.
4. The 5 - 10 year cost of ownership is a very steep one that long term owners turn off on.
But money makes the world go a round and they keep the above 4 preety quiet.
06-21-2011, 07:49 AM
#24
Race Director
Hybrid only models like the Prius aside (or comparisons between different models), the whole concept just doesn't pass the common sense test. Take model XX of a car, add a min of $2K+ hybrids parts to increase fuel mileage in the hopes that the mileage gain is larger than the higher upfront cost during the typical ownership period. Unless you throw in unusual factors like an Obama subsidy, $10/gal gas, or a car maker/dealer losing money on each sale, I don't see the math ever working out.
06-21-2011, 09:52 AM
#25
when I saw Junkster's name
06-21-2011, 10:27 AM
#26
The sizzle in the Steak
Junkster was saying "hella" in 2004....and yet some of the clowns around here still say "hella" and "sick" in 2011 too.
06-21-2011, 01:07 PM
#27
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,521
Received 846 Likes
on
526 Posts
While the sticker mpg quoted above is accurate, real world mpg seems to be different beast:
Car and Driver Link
(and it seems the Cruze LT gets only slightly better fuel economy than my gas guzzling MDX )
All fall well short of the mileage on the hybrids in this segment.
Car and Driver Link
(and it seems the Cruze LT gets only slightly better fuel economy than my gas guzzling MDX
)All fall well short of the mileage on the hybrids in this segment.
Using the combined ratings, 33mpg of the Cruze Eco vs 44mpg of the Civic hybrid, and the difference is 30% or so. If you travel 15000 miles a year at $4/gal, you will spend around $1800 in the Cruze, and $1350 in the Civic, a difference of $450. The Civic hybrid is $3500 more than a Civic EX (civic hybrid is very well equipped like the EX). When you factor in the $2000 tax credit, the difference is $1500. In about 3 years or so, you will start to realize the saving. And that's not including the fact that some hybrid buyers are looking for that "green image."
06-21-2011, 02:45 PM
#28
While the sticker mpg quoted above is accurate, real world mpg seems to be different beast:
Car and Driver Link
(and it seems the Cruze LT gets only slightly better fuel economy than my gas guzzling MDX )
All fall well short of the mileage on the hybrids in this segment.
Car and Driver Link
(and it seems the Cruze LT gets only slightly better fuel economy than my gas guzzling MDX
)All fall well short of the mileage on the hybrids in this segment.
Last month, it was 1.6%, depressed also by production cuts for some models due to the Japan disaster, but not enough to account for all the drop.
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
While the nation's top-selling hybrid, the Toyota Prius, has a 50 mpg combined rating, other hybrid sedans get less
Meanwhile, all Elantras and at least some Focus, Cruze and Honda Civic models are rated at 40 mpg or more on the highway.
And I love how he transitions from talking about Hybrid combined mileage numbers, to talking about non-hybrids' highway only numbers. Entirely omitting the fact that the Focus only does 28 in the city cycle (33 combined). Cruze Eco is 28 city (31 combined), while non-Eco's do 24 city (27 combined). The plain jane Civic with an automatic is 28 city (32 combined).
This is something we consistently see, also on forums where someone is trying to make a point one way or another. If you compare combined only we see;
Prius = 50 mpg
Civic Hybrid = 44 mpg
Fusion Hybrid = 39 mpg
While the gas only cars are:
Cruze Eco = 31 mpg
Focus = 33 mpg
Civic = 32 mpg
So yeah, it's possible to post 'press release worthy' highway only numbers but harder to back it up in day to day driving since they usually do it with a super tall top gear.
06-21-2011, 06:13 PM
#29
6G TLX-S
And I find it interesting that the article only talks about the hwy mpg of conventional gasoline-powered vehicles. Why not include the city rating? Most compact cars don't get 30+mpg in the city. For instance, the most efficient Cruze, the Cruze Eco 6MT, is rated at 28mpg. The Civic hybrid? 44mpg.
Using the combined ratings, 33mpg of the Cruze Eco vs 44mpg of the Civic hybrid, and the difference is 30% or so. If you travel 15000 miles a year at $4/gal, you will spend around $1800 in the Cruze, and $1350 in the Civic, a difference of $450. The Civic hybrid is $3500 more than a Civic EX (civic hybrid is very well equipped like the EX). When you factor in the $2000 tax credit, the difference is $1500. In about 3 years or so, you will start to realize the saving. And that's not including the fact that some hybrid buyers are looking for that "green image."
Using the combined ratings, 33mpg of the Cruze Eco vs 44mpg of the Civic hybrid, and the difference is 30% or so. If you travel 15000 miles a year at $4/gal, you will spend around $1800 in the Cruze, and $1350 in the Civic, a difference of $450. The Civic hybrid is $3500 more than a Civic EX (civic hybrid is very well equipped like the EX). When you factor in the $2000 tax credit, the difference is $1500. In about 3 years or so, you will start to realize the saving. And that's not including the fact that some hybrid buyers are looking for that "green image."
06-22-2011, 12:05 PM
#30
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,521
Received 846 Likes
on
526 Posts
Using the Prius as an example, I believe the warranty of the battery system is 10000miles/8years. And Toyota expects the battery to last as long as the car itself. Toyota claims that the battery has been tested to last to 180,000 miles. There are people who will drive more than that, but I think for most people, 180,000 miles is enough.
06-29-2011, 05:38 PM
#31
Using the Prius as an example, I believe the warranty of the battery system is 10000miles/8years. And Toyota expects the battery to last as long as the car itself. Toyota claims that the battery has been tested to last to 180,000 miles. There are people who will drive more than that, but I think for most people, 180,000 miles is enough.
06-29-2011, 06:10 PM
#33
^
06-30-2011, 11:34 AM
#36
I find it funny that some Prius owners say they bought their car because they love the environment, yet they fail to realize where their batteries were made and the damage to the environment they are causing:
http://www.impactlab.net/2007/03/14/...mental-damage/
http://www.impactlab.net/2007/03/14/...mental-damage/
06-30-2011, 11:57 AM
#38
AZ Community Team
Using the Prius as an example, I believe the warranty of the battery system is 10000miles/8years. And Toyota expects the battery to last as long as the car itself. Toyota claims that the battery has been tested to last to 180,000 miles. There are people who will drive more than that, but I think for most people, 180,000 miles is enough.
So it can tell you the overall state of the battery. So far the older Prius batteries are still in the 90%+ area for capacity holding. A Toyota mechanic told him that's not surprising as most of the 2G Prius's he see's have excellent charge capability even after ten's of thousands of cycles.
06-30-2011, 03:52 PM
#39
I'm not sure, but these two cars also have different sized batteries (different composition too). Are you getting the idea that there is no 'one' answer to this question? Yet it doesn't stop people from making generalizations based on insufficient data.
07-01-2011, 04:38 AM
#40
Evil Mazda Driver
The Prius has been the official smugmobile of Portland ever since the second generation hit the showrooms in 2003 as an '04 model. They morally-righteous have gobbled them up in bulk, slapped hippie bumper stickers on them, strapped their canoes to the roof, loaded up with granola and vegan picnic fixins' and hit the highway, making sure to occupy the left lane at all costs while maintaining a speed at least 15 mph under the posted speed limit with the windows down and the air conditioning on.
Now the Leaf is everywhere around here. God help us.
Now the Leaf is everywhere around here. God help us.