So I had a talk with my girlfriend....
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Suzuka Master
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So I had a talk with my girlfriend....
....about how the new M5 was not going to be offered with a conventional manual transmission (and how they crushed my dreams, but part's not important). Her response was that this was a good idea because BMW would sell more cars since more people are "able" to drive it.
My thought was that BMW M-cars (and the M5, specifically) had the business of people who were LOOKING FOR a manual transmission in a car like that and couldn't get it with Mercedes AMG, Audi RS6, Jaguar Rs, etc. Basically, the previous M5 had no competition in terms of the type of car + manual tranny. So I think those customers like me will now be more willing to look to AMG since they can no longer get the third pedal from Bimmer.
So what do you guys think? Will BMW sell more M5s now that it's not manual-tranny-only? Or will everyone be getting an E55 (or other)?
My thought was that BMW M-cars (and the M5, specifically) had the business of people who were LOOKING FOR a manual transmission in a car like that and couldn't get it with Mercedes AMG, Audi RS6, Jaguar Rs, etc. Basically, the previous M5 had no competition in terms of the type of car + manual tranny. So I think those customers like me will now be more willing to look to AMG since they can no longer get the third pedal from Bimmer.
So what do you guys think? Will BMW sell more M5s now that it's not manual-tranny-only? Or will everyone be getting an E55 (or other)?
Pro
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From: victoria
don't some race cars have smg's but also a clutch pedal??? i seen cars where to up shift and down shift all you have to do is press the lever up or down but they have a third peddle as well. Have i been smoking crack again or can someone verify this for me
Photography Nerd
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From: Toronto
I've never seen a street car with a sequential manual and a clutch pedal but F1 cars have a clutch that is operated by hand but only for 1st gear.
Every sequential manual transmission I have seen on street cars are all electrohydraulic with no clutch pedal.
Every sequential manual transmission I have seen on street cars are all electrohydraulic with no clutch pedal.
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Pro
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From: victoria
no i was refering to race cars. sorry it was out of topic. But however i think you answered my question. So for F1 cars you would only need to operate the clutch when engaging first gear? meaning the only time you press the clutch is when your trying to get out of the pit?
Teh ?
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From: Denver, CO
It's all about the benji's these days, and BMW isn't an exception to the rule...
I think it might open up a few more people to the market, which would be added profit. Some enthusiasts might be turned off, but if they are true fans, they'll buy into the new changes...
I mean, come on, let's be honest. The M5 might well be the most complete luxury sports sedan in the world, hands down.
Junkster, who only wishes the look would change
I think it might open up a few more people to the market, which would be added profit. Some enthusiasts might be turned off, but if they are true fans, they'll buy into the new changes...
I mean, come on, let's be honest. The M5 might well be the most complete luxury sports sedan in the world, hands down.
Junkster, who only wishes the look would change
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From: Windsor-Quebec corridor
Originally Posted by ClutchPerformer
.. So I think those customers like me will now be more willing to look to AMG since they can no longer get the third pedal from Bimmer.
So what do you guys think? Will BMW sell more M5s now that it's not manual-tranny-only? Or will everyone be getting an E55 (or other)?
So what do you guys think? Will BMW sell more M5s now that it's not manual-tranny-only? Or will everyone be getting an E55 (or other)?
Have you actually tried an SMG, or is this just couch ranting?
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Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by sauceman
...Have you actually tried an SMG, or is this just couch ranting?
Bound for Europe
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From: My crib in Burnaby, BC
So it's official then? I read of rumors of a manual offering just for NA.
I'd probably enjoy the SMG after a while, but for some reason, a clutch-less M5 doesn't get me as excited as usual.
Soze, who loves the new M5, thank you
I'd probably enjoy the SMG after a while, but for some reason, a clutch-less M5 doesn't get me as excited as usual.
Soze, who loves the new M5, thank you
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Originally Posted by Junkster
...I mean, come on, let's be honest. The M5 might well be the most complete luxury sports sedan in the world, hands down...
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Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by sauceman
I understand you need the clutch to be happy, but if you were in the market for such a car, why in the hell would you choose an AT over an SMG?? There's no clutch pedal, but there still is noo comparison....
That's the problem.
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Suzuka Master
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I'm really whoring it up now, but this topic is really close to my heart. Another thing:
Now that the SMG is a ///M norm, what stops BMW from making an M7 (they still claim that they won't do it)? Now THAT would be a car I'd like to see with an SMG (a manual would be a little too much for that car, but SMG might just work). Thoughts?
Now that the SMG is a ///M norm, what stops BMW from making an M7 (they still claim that they won't do it)? Now THAT would be a car I'd like to see with an SMG (a manual would be a little too much for that car, but SMG might just work). Thoughts?
Instructor
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SMG is definately a paradigm shift (NPI) from the old school but from what I recall back when Car and Driver tested the manual M3 vs the SMG M3 there was no significant loss in performance. I think that once one experiences the SMG and it's futuristic ease of operation, there will be many converts from the old to the new.
I'm a diehard stick & three pedal man but after driving tiptronic Porsches and the paddle shifters on the Audi A8, the engagement of the gears is pretty much as quick as a manual ... and I think it's rather cool !
I'm a diehard stick & three pedal man but after driving tiptronic Porsches and the paddle shifters on the Audi A8, the engagement of the gears is pretty much as quick as a manual ... and I think it's rather cool !
Bound for Europe
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From: My crib in Burnaby, BC
To CP...
They will sell a crapload of M5s now.
No longer is it only offered with a manual, a factor that may have scared off hundreds in recent years.
Then I think maybe there will be similar or less sales of the new M5.
M5 loyalists may be so offended by the new design that the number of repeat buyers may diminish.
The SMG may draw in new faces but the looks may drive off old faces at the same time.
We'll see how it goes.
I can't wait to drive it! My friend who got promoted to sales finally has promised a drive when it arrives. He's got me lined up for a 645 6-speed test next month!! Yay!!!
They will sell a crapload of M5s now.
No longer is it only offered with a manual, a factor that may have scared off hundreds in recent years.
Then I think maybe there will be similar or less sales of the new M5.
M5 loyalists may be so offended by the new design that the number of repeat buyers may diminish.
The SMG may draw in new faces but the looks may drive off old faces at the same time.
We'll see how it goes.
I can't wait to drive it! My friend who got promoted to sales finally has promised a drive when it arrives. He's got me lined up for a 645 6-speed test next month!! Yay!!!
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Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by toddstuh
....I'm a diehard stick & three pedal man but after driving tiptronic Porsches and the paddle shifters on the Audi A8, the engagement of the gears is pretty much as quick as a manual ... and I think it's rather cool !
I'm not really worried about losses/gains in performance and/or how quickly the shift is made (sometimes I don't WANT a quick shift!). All I want to do is control my own clutch. Is that too much to ask, BMW?
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Suzuka Master
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I like the S4 a lot, but it's too small to be competitive with M5/E55/etc. S6 is the right size, but you can't get it with a manual tranny. And it doesn't have enough HP to be competitive with M5/E55/etc.
If anyone ever sees me driving a Cadillac, please shoot me in the face. Thanks.
If anyone ever sees me driving a Cadillac, please shoot me in the face. Thanks.
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From: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted by ClutchPerformer
I like the S4 a lot, but it's too small to be competitive with M5/E55/etc. S6 is the right size, but you can't get it with a manual tranny. And it doesn't have enough HP to be competitive with M5/E55/etc.
If anyone ever sees me driving a Cadillac, please shoot me in the face. Thanks.
If anyone ever sees me driving a Cadillac, please shoot me in the face. Thanks.
Orangeblood
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From: Dallas
Dude.
The CTS-V is niiiiice. Guess you can crab about the squared-off ends, but for 50k, a helluva deal.
Check this out: http://www.mallettcars.com. For $65K I think I'd rather have one of these.
The CTS-V is niiiiice. Guess you can crab about the squared-off ends, but for 50k, a helluva deal.
Check this out: http://www.mallettcars.com. For $65K I think I'd rather have one of these.
At 3890 pounds and 471 hp, the Mallett CTS-V's power-to-weight ratio takes on all comers, working out to 8.3 pounds per hp, which outdoes the C5 Corvette (9.2 pounds per hp), Mercedes E55 AMG (8.5 pounds) and-you guessed it-the M5 (10.2 pounds). On paper, the Mallett CTS-V's 4.3-second 0-to-60-mph time would readily dispatch the M5s of the world
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Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by MarkPinTx
Dude.
The CTS-V is niiiiice. Guess you can crab about the squared-off ends, but for 50k, a helluva deal.
Check this out: http://www.mallettcars.com. For $65K I think I'd rather have one of these.
The CTS-V is niiiiice. Guess you can crab about the squared-off ends, but for 50k, a helluva deal.
Check this out: http://www.mallettcars.com. For $65K I think I'd rather have one of these.
I think that quote you posted was based on the old M5's power rating. I'm not sure how much the new car will weigh, but even assuming that it weighs something ridiculously high like 4000 pounds, that's 8 pounds/HP even. To get the 8.3 that this mallett car has, it'd have to weigh 4150lbs. M5 > CTS-V no matter how you stroke it.
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Suzuka Master
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Hey guys. Here's a great PM that Soze75 sent me on this topic. He puts my feelings into words beter than I ever could. Enjoy:
Wow man..... Wow! Thoughts?
Originally Posted by Soze75
Hey CP
I think we're totally alike in our love of the clutch. Only a select few like us rate the clutch as essential to motoring. My first car was an '82 Prelude with 55HP and I could work that mutha because of the clutch. There's a certain magic to those times when you see the play, gear down, and release the clutch just as you punch the throttle. Command and control - another seamless transfer of torque and HP that comes from you. This shit is personal.
Take the M5. I'll ALWAYS rate it higher than the Eclass AMG model because of the clutch. It's too bad Mercedes doesn't do manuals. I love their looks but without a manual, they're an instant no-go.
That used to be part of the M5 mystique for me. None of those poseurs would go near it. The clutch was our last defense against the M5 becoming "the one". You know, when a car is purchased just because it's the best and most expensive offering. The poseur market is just too strong. We lost the M3 just recently and now the M5 will be the car of choice for those who have money to burn and driving skills yet to be learned. I'm gonna cry when I see a new M5 being driven at a snails pace by a 40something woman, the front rims black as night from a combo of riding the brakes and lack of care. NOOO!!!
As far as looks, I gotta admit, the E39 M5 looks so ordinary now in light of the new 5. I'm a pretty progressive thinker and a creator at heart, and the new 5 is awesome(sport package mandatory - looks horrible with standard wheels). I saw a black 545i the other day and did my usual check. That check being the one where I check to see if its AT or MT. (There's something blasphemous about AT beemers. I've warmed to F1 paddles on the M3, but still I see it as a letdown). So I get to this car and...FINALLY...a six-speed manual! The car instantly becomes iconic in my head. A real driver is near.
Now I've been thinking...let's say that I finally win 15mil on the lotto. Probably, I'd be at the BMW lot within minutes of discovering my luck. M5, dark blue, deleted badges, thank you very much. Now, I think I might hesitate, maybe even look elsewhere. People tell me you get used to clutch absence, but everyday I drive, my satisfaction is derived from my clutch technique. Everyday, its a challenge to be smooth and precise with that left foot. My happiness depends on it! Without it, where am I going to go to feel involved. I guess figuring out the iDrive will occupy me, if it doesn't kill me first.
"Wow, what a drive!"
"I took that set of twisties like a pro, while all the time using my right hand to navigate 4 menus and 16 sub-sections on the iDrive!!"
"What a car!!"
All the best ~ Soze75
I think we're totally alike in our love of the clutch. Only a select few like us rate the clutch as essential to motoring. My first car was an '82 Prelude with 55HP and I could work that mutha because of the clutch. There's a certain magic to those times when you see the play, gear down, and release the clutch just as you punch the throttle. Command and control - another seamless transfer of torque and HP that comes from you. This shit is personal.
Take the M5. I'll ALWAYS rate it higher than the Eclass AMG model because of the clutch. It's too bad Mercedes doesn't do manuals. I love their looks but without a manual, they're an instant no-go.
That used to be part of the M5 mystique for me. None of those poseurs would go near it. The clutch was our last defense against the M5 becoming "the one". You know, when a car is purchased just because it's the best and most expensive offering. The poseur market is just too strong. We lost the M3 just recently and now the M5 will be the car of choice for those who have money to burn and driving skills yet to be learned. I'm gonna cry when I see a new M5 being driven at a snails pace by a 40something woman, the front rims black as night from a combo of riding the brakes and lack of care. NOOO!!!
As far as looks, I gotta admit, the E39 M5 looks so ordinary now in light of the new 5. I'm a pretty progressive thinker and a creator at heart, and the new 5 is awesome(sport package mandatory - looks horrible with standard wheels). I saw a black 545i the other day and did my usual check. That check being the one where I check to see if its AT or MT. (There's something blasphemous about AT beemers. I've warmed to F1 paddles on the M3, but still I see it as a letdown). So I get to this car and...FINALLY...a six-speed manual! The car instantly becomes iconic in my head. A real driver is near.
Now I've been thinking...let's say that I finally win 15mil on the lotto. Probably, I'd be at the BMW lot within minutes of discovering my luck. M5, dark blue, deleted badges, thank you very much. Now, I think I might hesitate, maybe even look elsewhere. People tell me you get used to clutch absence, but everyday I drive, my satisfaction is derived from my clutch technique. Everyday, its a challenge to be smooth and precise with that left foot. My happiness depends on it! Without it, where am I going to go to feel involved. I guess figuring out the iDrive will occupy me, if it doesn't kill me first.
"Wow, what a drive!"
"I took that set of twisties like a pro, while all the time using my right hand to navigate 4 menus and 16 sub-sections on the iDrive!!"
"What a car!!"
All the best ~ Soze75
Team Owner
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From: Long Beach, CA
I understand your dissappointment but look at it this way. F1 went away from the clutch because the technology made for faster shifting. Production automobiles followed suit. If BMW wants the M5 to be as fast as possible from pt. A to pt. B then it only makes sense for them to include the technology to make that happen. I do agree that a clutch could be included as an option for those purists out there like you and Soze.
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Suzuka Master
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Right. Soze and I don't care about shifting fast. We care about shifting, period. And BMW doesn't really have to worry. If the new M5 really does end up with 500HP, it wins automatically. Not only does it have the most HP of any sedan in its size class, but it's got a manual transmission (whether regular or SMG, the basic mechanicals are the same). Even with a "conventional" six gears, you'll still be handing E55s, S-Type Rs and RS6es their asses. This thing's got seven! What are they afraid of? The 0-60 races in the inevitable magazine comparos will be won by the M5 not because it SHIFTS 0.05 seconds faster, but because it has more balls in terms of engine and tranny. Plain and simple. With a standard transmission, the M5 wouldn't be as fast as possible from point A to point B, but it'd still be pretty freakin' fast.
I think Soze brought up an interesting point about the previous M5 keeping the "poseurs" away from such a fine automobile. You had to really want to DRIVE one to spend $80k buying it. Look at how the faces in M3s changed once SMG was an option. Now the same thing going to happen to the M5 (which is an even bigger disappointment because it'll be done by even OLDER women with even MORE money who care even LESS about the car). It really is a shame...
I think Soze brought up an interesting point about the previous M5 keeping the "poseurs" away from such a fine automobile. You had to really want to DRIVE one to spend $80k buying it. Look at how the faces in M3s changed once SMG was an option. Now the same thing going to happen to the M5 (which is an even bigger disappointment because it'll be done by even OLDER women with even MORE money who care even LESS about the car). It really is a shame...
Photography Nerd
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From: Toronto
I'm pretty sure that old rich women are not the target demographic for the M5 but who cares really? I enjoy shifting as much as anyone else but if a computer can do it faster and more efficiently than I so be it. If SMG opens the door to more potential owners that's a good thing even if they are old rich women. More M5s sold = more development money for the next M5.
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Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
I'm pretty sure that old rich women are not the target demographic for the M5.....
Demographics don't mean crap when people have money to waste.
I enjoy shifting as much as anyone else but if a computer can do it faster and more efficiently than I so be it. If SMG opens the door to more potential owners that's a good thing even if they are old rich women. More M5s sold = more development money for the next M5.
Photography Nerd
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From: Toronto
Have you driven SMG? It's hardly watered down. I'm sure BMW is doing it for performance reasons not accessibility.
Don't worry about who buys the cars. Be confident in your driving ability and show them who owns who on the track.
Don't worry about who buys the cars. Be confident in your driving ability and show them who owns who on the track.
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Suzuka Master
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ARGH! No I haven't driven an SMG-equipped car. I've actually never tried, but I don't think BMW dealers will let 23-year-olds test drive M3s just for fun. And the people I knew/know who had/have them I don't know well enough to ask them to drive their car. It might be a while until I actually get to test the system out for myself.
So for now this is armchair ranting. But like I told someone in some other thread: I'm not just sitting in this armchair complaining. People I talk to who've driven them say that although SMG IS fundamentally a manual tranny, from the driver's perspective it's much more like driving an auto with a gear selection option (like the TSX sportshift) than driving a stick. Car mags don't like it as much. Acquaintences of mine who had conventional M3s made fun of the guys with SMG because they can't get a smooth shift out of it. And I think everyone will agree that SMG will prove to be less reliable.
It's true.
So for now this is armchair ranting. But like I told someone in some other thread: I'm not just sitting in this armchair complaining. People I talk to who've driven them say that although SMG IS fundamentally a manual tranny, from the driver's perspective it's much more like driving an auto with a gear selection option (like the TSX sportshift) than driving a stick. Car mags don't like it as much. Acquaintences of mine who had conventional M3s made fun of the guys with SMG because they can't get a smooth shift out of it. And I think everyone will agree that SMG will prove to be less reliable.
Originally Posted by Soze75
There's a certain magic to those times when you see the play, gear down, and release the clutch just as you punch the throttle. Command and control - another seamless transfer of torque and HP that comes from you. This shit is personal.
